Player naturalisations

[boz74]

If I may interject, there are many reasons why there is nothing irrational that Sabonis would play for Lithuania.
1) He was born to Lithuanian parents
2) His name is Lithuanian
3) He speaks in Lithuanian
4) He has represented Lithuanian youth teams since 16 years old = he feels Lithuanian

I never said it was "irrational".

I simply disagree that points 1 to 3 should be enough for someone to become eligible to a country's national team, especially points 2 and 3: should someone learning a foreign language become eligible to whichever countries speak that language? Of course not.

Also if he has Lithuanian parents, I don't see what his Lithuanian name adds to that: you make it sound like having Lithuanian parents but no Lithuanian name makes someone less Lithuanian. That's gross.

As for point 4, you're basically arguing that he should be allowed to the NT because he was allowed in the NT. That's circular logic ! Of course I'm arguing he shoulnd't have been allowed in the youth teams in the first place.

He is not product of Lithuanian basketball system but so is national team member Pocius, Songaila, Jasikevicius and so on other players who plaid in USA high school and college system. So your argument is not valid.

All of them did play in Lithuania and are thus products of the Lithuanian basketball system, so the point stands.

You might also want to realise that (to my knowledge) none of them hold any other citizenship.

But regardless, assuming there was indeed another player who did play in the NT without having played in the country before, it obviously does not invalidate the argument that such players shouldn't be allowed in the NT. That's just poor logic on your part.

Naturalised players should not be allowed when they have no connection to country that they playing for. Example: Langford, Rice, Jeter, McCalebb and other Americans. Sabonis is much closer to homeland than any of those players.

While I agree Sabonis is probably closer to his country, that's a moot point: none of them should be allowed anyway.

[auris1]

I ......felt that it might be time wasting since first post -

Indeed you were.
Anyways ,I was thinking about it and came to realise that we indeed had a few players who ,judging by the citizenship standards Lithuania as a country has nowadays ,were a bit off.
If Alijevas case is pretty straightforward,were his dad was foreign and his mum native to Lithuania ,plus he was born in Kaunas ,then Anisimov's case is completely opposite - he came to Lithuania just because for opportunistic reasons as far as I am aware. Indeed he became world under 21 champion ,had a decent career in Klaipeda and lrytas before he moved back to Ukraine for good. Both of them ,although very talented at junior level, never progressed far enough to be playing for our NT team. Even if it happened , I do not think that there would had been any opposition from Lithuanian public .
Regarding the players born abroad to Lithuanian parents but without citizenship nothing much changed since 1992 when players like Joe Arlauckas or Leo Rautins were more than welcome to come and join our team up till Nick Stauskas saga .
I have no issues with players like Koufos or Calathes representing Greece as well.
But, as many people here ,I have to draw the line where favours are exchanging hands when player gets EU passport for them to represent Nt team.

[auris1]

More and more players representing one country were born away abroad . And that is a trend that will increase in a future. Some of thEm will be/ are born to parent with different nationalities .
Let's see how many cases I can find for current under 20 u teams who were born away from the country they are representing.
Bosnia and Hercegovina - 3.
Croatia - 3.
France -1
GB -3
Greece- 1
Israel -4
Italy-1
Lithuania -2
Russia-1
Serbia -2
Slovenia-1
Spain-1
One or two or perhaps more players were born were born in the country they represent ,but have dual nationality parents.
So that is that. And this trend is going to increase with time.
How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination

[boz74]

Country of birth should make no difference.

The issue with a player like Koufos is not where he was born, it is where he grew up and, more specifically, where he played his basketball.

How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination

If they have only ever played basketball in country D, then of course they should only be allowed to play for that country, unless for some reason they have not gained citizenship in that country.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

So by those standards Kobe Bryant could've technicaly selected to play for Italy. Born in the States, moved to Italy when 6 or something like that and moved back to the states at the age of 13 when his dad retired, let's say his dad would play 2 more years, would that make it natural for Kobe to play for Italian U15 by your standards?
I think I already know the answer to that one

Some people might dislike the whole concept of nationality or citizenship, while I understand some parts of those arguements I still tend to disagree with them, while that philosophy applies to this topic terribly as we could just abolish national teams alltogether in that case.

[boz74]

So by those standards Kobe Bryant could've technicaly selected to play for Italy. Born in the States, moved to Italy when 6 or something like that and moved back to the states at the age of 13 when his dad retired, let's say his dad would play 2 more years, would that make it natural for Kobe to play for Italian U15 by your standards?
I think I already know the answer to that one

I'm pretty sure he's not an Italian citizen.

Some people might dislike the whole concept of nationality or citizenship, while I understand some parts of those arguements I still tend to disagree with them, while that philosophy applies to this topic terribly as we could just abolish national teams alltogether in that case.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

If FIBA were to alter eligibility rules so that either McCalebb or Koufos or both would become ineligible, then we could just abolish national teams altogether? Is that what you're saying?

[Upi]

A 'national team' seems to mean different things to different people. I don't really see a national team as some all-star representation of a national league, as it seems some (boz74?) would like it to be. I think there can be other competition formats for that purpose. I also DON'T (edit) think that if and where a person practiced and played basketball has much to do with a given person's nationality and eligilbility to represent a national team, but may play a part in someone's citizenship. I just think that a member of any national team should play in the team for other reasons than money and a player with a dual citizenship should at least not be able to hop back and forth between national teams.

IIHF rules aren't very clear cut by the way when it comes to naturalized players (there are all sorts of exceptions).

[boz74]

It does not seem to me that the ice hockey national teams are even remotely close to being some all-star representation of a national league, surely as a Finn you know that.

And IIHF rules are very clear when it comes to players like Koufos or McCalebb: neither would be eligible.

[Storžievis]

The IIFH rules are logical, but they are ineficient. There would be players who feel connected to their homeland trough parents but not able to play because they grew up at another country because parents decide to move there. Players should be able to play in whichever country they feels most attached - that would be eficient from society view.

But problem is, that people like Langford, Rice, Jeter, they have no shame in taking citizenship of another country to which they have no connections. They do not valuing another countrys culture, language and meaning of citizenship. And countrys have no shame giving citizenship to aliens just to be strong and do better in international turnaments.

All deals for automatic naturalisation of any player who do not try to assimilate to country they want to play in should be made illegal in first place, with heavy fines to countrys federation to discourage behavior. Marriage or no marriage, if player does not know meaning of citizenship of country and not even trying to learn language, he does not simply play in that country.

Second, players who grown up in another country but feeling more attachment to homeland country should be allowed to play in homeland country (Sabonis case). Players who grown up in another country and feeling attachment to that country should play in that country also (Tony Parker case).

That is my opinion, most fellow Lithuanians will have similar opinion about this topic.

[Upi]

It does not seem to me that the ice hockey national teams are even remotely close to being some all-star representation of a national league, surely as a Finn you know that.

And IIHF rules are very clear when it comes to players like Koufos or McCalebb: neither would be eligible.

Actually I agree with you about the IIHF rules (being better than the bastketball naturalization rules), but I also think that IIHF rules would allow Storzievis' Sabonis case and would allow him to represent Lithuania. He would have to petition for the right, but it would be clear-cut case (unless he had already chosen to play in e.g. a US or Spanish national team), like it was e.g. in the case of Teemu Selänne's 18y old son who has a dual citizenship and who just represented Finland in U18 tournament, although he has lived all his life abroad in the US/Canada where his father worked. Looking into Koufos' case, I'm 100% he could have represented Greece in ice hockey also, but what comes to McCaleb and Macedonia, IIHF rules would have allowed that too, just take a look at the South Korean's national team in ice hockey with several naturalized players.

[boz74]

You are misinformed.

Eetu Selänne has not played for Finland in any IIHF-sanctionned tournament, only in an u-18 friendly tournament to which IIHF rules do not apply.

As for the Korean players, all of them have played two years in the Korean league prior to being selected to the NT, see http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=13507 or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11107 for example, so their case is different from McCalebb's.

[BiHBasket]

More and more players representing one country were born away abroad . And that is a trend that will increase in a future. Some of thEm will be/ are born to parent with different nationalities .
Let's see how many cases I can find for current under 20 u teams who were born away from the country they are representing.
Bosnia and Hercegovina - 3.
Croatia - 3.
France -1
GB -3
Greece- 1
Israel -4
Italy-1
Lithuania -2
Russia-1
Serbia -2
Slovenia-1
Spain-1
One or two or perhaps more players were born were born in the country they represent ,but have dual nationality parents.
So that is that. And this trend is going to increase with time.
How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination

Those three players are:

Lakić is born in Serbia just because his Bosnian hometown is close to Serbian border and they had better hospital than his hometown. Same situation with Milanović, just his hometown is near Montenegro border. So they were just born there and immediately came back. As for Polutak, his family moved to Swiss from Bosnia as war refugees, so that's why he was born there.

So none of them is naturalized There are a lot of Bosnians in other national teams(especially Slovenia), but as for me they are not Bosnians anymore anyway, just a bunch of pathetic traitors

[Upi]

You are misinformed.

Eetu Selänne has not played for Finland in any IIHF-sanctionned tournament, only in an u-18 friendly tournament to which IIHF rules do not apply.

And everything I stated still stands.

As for the Korean players, all of them have played two years in the Korean league prior to being selected to the NT, see http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=13507 or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11107 for example, so their case is different from McCalebb's.

Still does not change the fact that they got fast tracked naturalizations only in order to play ice hockey for S.Korea and it looks like IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalized players.

[boz74]

And everything I stated still stands.

No, you stated that Eetu petitioned to the IIHF and the IIHF granted him the right to play for Finland. The IIHF did not grant him that right.

Still does not change the fact that they got fast tracked naturalizations only in order to play ice hockey for S.Korea and it looks like IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalized players.

The IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalizations, you got that part correct.

However, you said the Korean players' case was similar to that of McCalebb's, and that therefore McCalebb would have been allowed by the IIHF as well.

That is obviously incorrect: McCalebb did not play the two seasons in Macedonia that are mandatory according to IIHF rules, and would therefore be deemed ineligible for that country's national team, as is every hockey player in the same situation.

[Levenspiel]

But problem is, that people like Langford, Rice, Jeter, they have no shame in taking citizenship of another country to which they have no connections. They do not valuing another countrys culture, language and meaning of citizenship. And countrys have no shame giving citizenship to aliens just to be strong and do better in international turnaments.

All deals for automatic naturalisation of any player who do not try to assimilate to country they want to play in should be made illegal in first place, with heavy fines to countrys federation to discourage behavior. Marriage or no marriage, if player does not know meaning of citizenship of country and not even trying to learn language, he does not simply play in that country.

I am personally not sure if FIBA wants to avoid McCalebb-like cases. They've seemed to encourage it actually. Maybe to help boosting the level of bball in those counties.

In women competitions especially, almost all (maybe all?) NTs, even the best bball countries, add an American WNBA player in their roster, and it's like a norm now. it's actually ridiculous, just like the old days when we had "club" teams with 1 American.