2023 Lithuanian NT

[Toruko]

You don't get, don't you? Sabonis, as 2 times all star, didn't start a single game in his NATURAL POSITION. Not a freakin' one game. There's literally no reason why mediocre NBA player JV should be starting instead of NBA MVP candidate at his position - 5. Besides, with JV we have super crappy defense. He is attacked all the time brutally.

Sabonis has to be our starting center without any f...conversation. He earned, deserved it, he's better. You can't push over the star player Sabonis to 4 or whatever positions. He's not effective there. Play him at 5, as point center which he is. End of the story. Time to take the best of Domas. He makes others better, the team play faster, plays better D.

Sabonis at 5 would even be worse thats the reason why JV started at five. He is definitely the better player but on the defensive end he will be the bigger target. Playing Sabonis 5 wont make the LTU NT to a top team. I am not even sure he can produce the output of JV offensively.

[Straight forward]

Sabonis at 5 would even be worse thats the reason why JV started at five. He is definitely the better player but on the defensive end he will be the bigger target. Playing Sabonis 5 wont make the LTU NT to a top team. I am not even sure he can produce the output of JV offensively.

How it would be worse?

[Toruko]

How it would be worse?

Sabonis is neither a 4 nor a 5. He is too short to play 5 and cant shoot to play 4. I think his wingspan is even shorter than his height. In addition to that his defensive IQ is very low unlike Nikola Jokic for example. He cant read defensive games, he bites on every fucking fake and he is not strong enough for centers. He tries to play physical but his positioning is mostly very bad in low post defenses. His lateral quickness was bad but he improved but he is still very dumb causing unnecessary fouls. I just remember one center defending worse than Domantas Sabonis and this is Enes Kanter but they are at the same category defensively.

Unlike Sabonis JV covers space and you cant move him around. JV is surely not a rim protector but still miles better than Sabonis. Both are weak pick and roll defenders. Using DS at 5 for a long time is suicide. JV doesnt make things much better but still better than Sabonis.

[Straight forward]

Sabonis is neither a 4 nor a 5. He is too short to play 5 and cant shoot to play 4. I think his wingspan is even shorter than his height. In addition to that his defensive IQ is very low unlike Nikola Jokic for example. He cant read defensive games, he bites on every fucking fake and he is not strong enough for centers. He tries to play physical but his positioning is mostly very bad in low post defenses. His lateral quickness was bad but he improved but he is still very dumb causing unnecessary fouls. I just remember one center defending worse than Domantas Sabonis and this is Enes Kanter but they are at the same category defensively.

Unlike Sabonis JV covers space and you cant move him around. JV is surely not a rim protector but still miles better than Sabonis. Both are weak pick and roll defenders. Using DS at 5 for a long time is suicide. JV doesnt make things much better but still better than Sabonis.

FOA, Sabonis is one of the toughest dudes in entire NBA. It's not even a debate. He's one of the fittest, likely even the fittest player in the League. People literally talk about his sheer strength, he moves people out of his way. You must be joking on saying he's not strong enough for centers https://twitter.com/SiddharthNBA/sta...66342670598145 or this https://twitter.com/playbyplaybark/s...75330476396545 There's a reason Sabonis style is being called bully ball.

His defense this season improved. He settled down, matured. IQ was always there (I mean he's Sabonis' son), but he used to be and sometimes still is a bit too eager. But even in this department Sabonis matured. He improved in all aspects of the game. You know when you're 5th in MVP racing, you're pretty good. https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/ki...-23-nba-season

Is he a good defender? No. Solid? Nearly. Way better than absolute target JV. Sabonis is pretty decent in the space (where JV is a joke), pretty decent at p'n'r (much better than JV). That's the difference. With Sabonis you can switch all pretty effectively, with Kanter and JV it's impossible. It's absolute insanity to even mention Kanter here...I won't comment it. He's worse than even JV, so please... He has enough of size, let alone strength to bang with anyone. I mean he's top rebounder in the league.Actually Sabonis was a good piece against Doncic, he stayed with him nicely in some possessions and off course Doncic wouldn't be able to push him inside. Lumberjacks <<< mobile centers any minute in contemporary basketball.

Anyway, you missed everything this time. Sabonis is incomparably more versatile offensively than JV and makes other better and he's definitely better defender than JV. It's not even comparable. It was evident even against Spain. Now Sabonis is even better.

PS: Just watch this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anrp...nel=PureBasket

[Toruko]

FOA, Sabonis is one of the toughest dudes in entire NBA. It's not even a debate. He's one of the fittest, likely even the fittest player in the League. People literally talk about his sheer strength, he moves people out of his way. You must be joking on saying he's not strong enough for centers https://twitter.com/SiddharthNBA/sta...66342670598145 or this https://twitter.com/playbyplaybark/s...75330476396545 There's a reason Sabonis style is being called bully ball.

His defense this season improved. He settled down, matured. IQ was always there (I mean he's Sabonis' son), but he used to be and sometimes still is a bit too eager. But even in this department Sabonis matured. He improved in all aspects of the game. You know when you're 5th in MVP racing, you're pretty good. https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/ki...-23-nba-season

Is he a good defender? No. Solid? Nearly. Way better than absolute target JV. Sabonis is pretty decent in the space (where JV is a joke), pretty decent at p'n'r (much better than JV). That's the difference. With Sabonis you can switch all pretty effectively, with Kanter and JV it's impossible. It's absolute insanity to even mention Kanter here...I won't comment it. He's worse than even JV, so please... He has enough of size, let alone strength to bang with anyone. I mean he's top rebounder in the league.Actually Sabonis was a good piece against Doncic, he stayed with him nicely in some possessions and off course Doncic wouldn't be able to push him inside. Lumberjacks <<< mobile centers any minute in contemporary basketball.

Anyway, you missed everything this time. Sabonis is incomparably more versatile offensively than JV and makes other better and he's definitely better defender than JV. It's not even comparable. It was evident even against Spain. Now Sabonis is even better.

PS: Just watch this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anrp...nel=PureBasket

What kind of an argument is this to say "he is Sabonis son" hahahahaha

He is a bad defender and its like I wrote.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-defensive-rating-centers-2023

Like you can see here he had the worst defensive rating after Sengun but the defensive rating doesnt tell the true story. The teams defense has an impact on the defensive rating too but he is a very bad defender even though he is more nimble. You want him to play 5 right? Then his main job is protecting the rim and play mostly post defense in half court.

Well he has 0,5 blocks per game even Sengun in his second year had 1 and he lacks wingspan, positioning and power. He does everytihing but it doesnt help much. Thats why your coach use JV at 5 and Sabonis in the perimeter but Sabonis acts also very dump and makes stupid fouls. The last one was against Spain. He is not even an average defender let alone solid.

[Straight forward]

In my opinion low post defense is the least concern. Little help defense can easily sort thing out in FIBA court if some post player gets hot. It's much more important to have p'n'r and perimeter defense set. And Sabonis is surely better than JV in this department.

[Toruko]

In my opinion low post defense is the least concern. Little help defense can easily sort thing out in FIBA court if some post player gets hot. It's much more important to have p'n'r and perimeter defense set. And Sabonis is surely better than JV in this department.

Your main problem is not JVs defense. Like I said I would never play Sabonis on five for a long time at least. Your main problem is the poor back court defense and you overuse JV in the offense so he is really out of power in the defense. JV is surely a target in the pick and roll defense but I am not sure how Sabonis can be an improvement when your backcourt gets beaten so easily. The only true advantage he gives over JV is he can push the ball to the other side after rebounding and he is also a great transition passer but with your current backcourt you would receive 90 points average per game. Butkevicius is a really good defender, pesky little guy but he is not enough.

[Straight forward]

Your main problem is not JVs defense. Like I said I would never play Sabonis on five for a long time at least. Your main problem is the poor back court defense and you overuse JV in the offense so he is really out of power in the defense. JV is surely a target in the pick and roll defense but I am not sure how Sabonis can be an improvement when your backcourt gets beaten so easily. The only true advantage he gives over JV is he can push the ball to the other side after rebounding and he is also a great transition passer but with your current backcourt you would receive 90 points average per game. Butkevicius is a really good defender, pesky little guy but he is not enough.

With the lack of perimeter defense I surely agree, but it can be improved with addition of Ulanovas and Dimsa. Also I want to see Sedekerskis, who would tighten up the defense at 4. Essentially I want to see Sabonis, Sedekerskis, Ulanovas, Brazdeikis, Grigonis/Dimsa playing some stretches.

And, again, Sabonis is so much different than JV. He's complete point center. It's nonsense to say that complete point center has only one true advantage to traditional lumberjack center. I can name tons of it. Offensively - he can play short roles and make quick decisions(JV can't), he's way quicker screener (multiple quick screens), he's great at hand offs, he can play make with the ball in his hands in perimeter (JV can't), he's way better passer, he's way better ball handler, he's way quicker, he's a better slasher, way better transition player. Defensively - he's way better transition defender, a bit better p'n'r defender, incomparably better defender in the space (perimeter), he can switch to some extent (JV can't a bit). He very likely better rebounder, but it's close, I can't make definite call. Sabonis is top defender in the league because of his tremendous stamina and ability to play 35mpg playing hard in each possession at both ends. Heavy JV wouldn't survive such minutes, literally.

JV is a bit better low post defender (but here I have to say Maksvytis made a mistake thinking that in FIBA JV and Domas can guard ISO against other NBA bigs, it's too risky. A bit of help defense should come. You can't allow just pure ISO action deep down low. It's too risky. Yeah, both Domas and JV are better than Willy, but you should not gamble with this deep down low. If a center has deep position, he's unstoppable, be it JV or Willy, doesn't matter much. That's how Willy punished Lithuania a lot in 8 finals. There's adjustments needed by Maksvytis). A bit more physical defensively, like covering more space down low, like bigger lad. He's more reliable finished down low, old school low post scorer (but Domas is also elite post scorer, so it's very close). That's all.

So you can make a conclusion yourself. Don't forget Domas never ever yet had a normal luxury to fully play in his own position. I mean, you know, there's a reason we talk about 3 times All Star and All NBA dude here compared to JV. Time to consider this properly

[Shawshank]

Sabonis had enough minutes alone at 5 especially in endings and still is same result he cant shoot,if player cant shoot there no history for non shooter big dominating in fiba playoofs stage since bigs era ended in 90s.


All those hand-offs works in nba it wont work in fiba because LTU dont have such level shooting guards after dribbles like Kings have.

Domas playing in NT since 2016 with 4 diffrent coaches blame his teammates or coaches for his just solid play in fiba is funny

At some point great player must look in mirrow and stop searching for excuses or he simply he is not all time great,just good player in fiba courts


From playing style Sabonis need to make some jumpers to mixed up in fiba or things wont change drastically with such crowded fiba inside

[Straight forward]

Sabonis had enough minutes alone at 5 especially in endings and still is same result he cant shoot,if player cant shoot there no history for non shooter big dominating in fiba playoofs stage since bigs era ended in 90s.

All those hand-offs works in nba it wont work in fiba because LTU dont have such level shooting guards after dribbles like Kings have.

Domas playing in NT since 2016 with 4 diffrent coaches blame his teammates or coaches for his just solid play in fiba is funny

At some point great player must look in mirrow and stop searching for excuses or he simply he is not all time great,just good player in fiba courts


From playing style Sabonis need to make some jumpers to mixed up in fiba or things wont change drastically with such crowded fiba inside

It's not about blaming some-one. It's about saying that it's time to switch the figures. The time has come. He had a monster NBA season, literally. He's elite of elite. It's time to truly start Sabonis at 5. If we look at last 3 games of Sabonis in the NT (2 of which were wins), he averaged 22eff per game. He struggled at the beginning, but then adjusted to FIBA and his teammates better. Today Sabonis is even better. He's growing. WC and Eurobasket experience taught him a lot. This season and NBA playoffs against Warriors will also teach him a lot. I believe that Sabonis in WC will already be more precise, flexible and matured in WC from day one. We likely will have much stronger preparation phase (stronger opponents), and he will adjust to tinier FIBA courts even before official tournaments too (that's the big mistake that federation made thinking about money and not optimal preparation last summer, BTW).

It's not about to make Domas super dominant. He won't be as dominant as some Lauri Markkanen. But it's about making our team better, and putting our selves in situations to have better chances to win. With Sabonis we are more versatile offensively and a bit better/flexible defensively. That's my thesis. It's not only hand offs, he finds cutters nicely, he has nice give and go connections with Jokubaitis, Brazdeikis and so on. He can kick out and create from high or deep post positions quickly. He runs the transition offense - rebound and go.

You shouldn't think that I'm projecting 30eff kinda tournament for Sabonis. I project something around 20-23eff, but him making the team better. Valanciunas is very capable to have 20-23eff kinda tournament. But that doesn't make the team better. We are forced to play slow,stagnant, limited offense in this case and being all the time attacked with endless pick and role offense.

Have JV off the bench. Force feed him, let him dominate inside. He would still give a lot of things in his 16-18mpg as back-up. Throwing say JV, Lekavicius, Brazdeikis from the bench would give us nice boost offensively. Instant offense from the bench. But the main dog today is Sabonis. He's better. He can do so much more things than JV, he's faster and so on. We have to make room for him to do his thing.

[Shawshank]

I have no problem Jonas playing 16-18min,under Adomaitis he was playing around 22-23min,dont need to picture than Valanciunas plays 35min.

Domas in every game gets 8-10 center minutes and i didnt see huge diffrence and NT +- stat doesnt go up overall on average

Thats Valanciunas outperformed Sabonis in 2019-2022 in lesser played minutes im sorry that means Sabonis need to step up his game


Sabonis need show that those minutes with him at C NT goes up.So far he didnt managed to do so Valanciunas got 25minutes.

When Domas will do that then Jonas will get birutis zalgiris minutes.


Kazys wont bench good playing player. Thats why Dimsa had finished multiples games over Brazdeikis in euroleague too



Everything happens gradually Jonas is getting older,no coach will go out their way to put 15pts nba player on bench and put 15min euroleague role player instead and imagine that will fix main problem that our backourt is one of the weakest from all top 10 fiba teams.

When NT loosing on perimeter coaching staff must risk somewhere,dont need to think their are some idiots.If we gonna always just adapt to opponnets with better guards we gonna lose in long 40minute game.NT coaches trying to mix up things and force opponets to adapt playing 2 bigs half game and buldozer them inside

I dont blame them that they are risking in defence putting 2 best lithuanians 19pts and 15pts per game nba bigs together and trying to figured when put them together and when to go small .Its very tough make correct timing with that

[Toruko]

With the lack of perimeter defense I surely agree, but it can be improved with addition of Ulanovas and Dimsa. Also I want to see Sedekerskis, who would tighten up the defense at 4. Essentially I want to see Sabonis, Sedekerskis, Ulanovas, Brazdeikis, Grigonis/Dimsa playing some stretches.

And, again, Sabonis is so much different than JV. He's complete point center. It's nonsense to say that complete point center has only one true advantage to traditional lumberjack center. I can name tons of it. Offensively - he can play short roles and make quick decisions(JV can't), he's way quicker screener (multiple quick screens), he's great at hand offs, he can play make with the ball in his hands in perimeter (JV can't), he's way better passer, he's way better ball handler, he's way quicker, he's a better slasher, way better transition player. Defensively - he's way better transition defender, a bit better p'n'r defender, incomparably better defender in the space (perimeter), he can switch to some extent (JV can't a bit). He very likely better rebounder, but it's close, I can't make definite call. Sabonis is top defender in the league because of his tremendous stamina and ability to play 35mpg playing hard in each possession at both ends. Heavy JV wouldn't survive such minutes, literally.

JV is a bit better low post defender (but here I have to say Maksvytis made a mistake thinking that in FIBA JV and Domas can guard ISO against other NBA bigs, it's too risky. A bit of help defense should come. You can't allow just pure ISO action deep down low. It's too risky. Yeah, both Domas and JV are better than Willy, but you should not gamble with this deep down low. If a center has deep position, he's unstoppable, be it JV or Willy, doesn't matter much. That's how Willy punished Lithuania a lot in 8 finals. There's adjustments needed by Maksvytis). A bit more physical defensively, like covering more space down low, like bigger lad. He's more reliable finished down low, old school low post scorer (but Domas is also elite post scorer, so it's very close). That's all.

So you can make a conclusion yourself. Don't forget Domas never ever yet had a normal luxury to fully play in his own position. I mean, you know, there's a reason we talk about 3 times All Star and All NBA dude here compared to JV. Time to consider this properly

I agree that you need to separate them but when you say he is better in this and that it sounds like he is good on the defensive end. He is not. He is not a good transition defender, he can run close outs better but there are no significantly better stops with him. In addition to that he is an foul prone in those FIBA games.

Offensively, he is surely the way more versatile player but Serbs use Jokic at five and Greeks play Giannis at five. Jokic is a better player than Sabonis in everything except maybe running and he is just a mere center. Giannis is without a doubt the best rim protector and perimeter defender in the world right now and Greeks cant utilize him. FIBA player will block the paint and force JV as well as Sabonis to shoot and attack Sabonis at five. Of course JV is getting older and it is only natural that Sabonis has to take over but Sabonis must prove that he is going to produce more than JV.

Sabonis needs a big beside him who can protect the paint and shoot from outside someone like Turner. I also agree that you have to put some defensively stronger perimeter player. It was a clear mistake just to take the most gifted player without any stoppers but it will decrease you offensive potential. Its always a trade off unless you get someone who can play on both ends.

Your thesis is that playing Sabonis on five would kill off most of the problems. If it was so the coaches would use him that way and you can believe me that they understand basketball way better than you and me and all the others here.

[Shawshank]

Of course JV is getting older and it is only natural that Sabonis has to take over but Sabonis must prove that he is going to produce more than JV.

.

exactly

Sabonis cant play more minutes,but score less points,grab less rebounds and make stupid fauls in endings playing that *ale good defence*

Thats what happend in eurobasket 2022


and after that we should put finger on coach, on Valanciunas but not Sabonis himself? Nah thats dont fly with me.


Best ltu player must take responsability that he himself must be better than that

[Straight forward]

Shawshank,

You underrate positional identity a lot. Saying that Sabonis gets around 10mpg in his natural position, is like saying that Calathes gets 10mpg at 1 and others 18 minutes playing at 2. Why would he complain, right? It's a big difference for Sabonis who is natural 5. His best asset is to be in the MIDDLE. Be it inside or outside, but he should be the guy with touches in the middle. Even if Maksvytis tried to give him that freedom generally, JV still observes a lot of space. JV can't really spread the floor (which Turner could), he narrows the floor. I think Sabonis starting and playing like 25mpg at C and not 10 would be HUGE difference.

And when you say that Sabonis' game is predictable because he doesn't shoot from outside, I should suggest to watch Sabonis' actual highlights from Eurobasket. He was doing a little bit of everything (except shooting, but there were some mid range jimmies and some threes). People underrate how versatile Sabonis is. If you think Sabonis is too predictable, I don't understand your obsession with JV. He's one trick ponny. Look at this. It's only Hungary, but still you get a sense what you get from Sabonis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZFtCreMicU&ab_channel=FIBA-TheBasketballChannel

Toruko,

My thesis is not that Sabonis solves the issues as main center, but that he improves our situation being main center compared to JV being main center. It's an important step forward, but not revelation. So my claim is not that Sabonis is good defender, but that he is better than JV. Yes he's better at close-outs just as you said, he's better in ISO defense in perimeter, he is a bit better in p'n'r defense. My overall thesis that Domas is less vulnerable defensively and Lithuania is a better defensive team with him on the court. Not by miles necessary, but still a step forward.

One general misconception is that Jokic and Giannis were bad in EB 22. No, they were great and totally dominated. Previously they struggled, but now they dominated. Giannis 32,7eff per game, Jokic 31,7. Sure, Jokic had some problems defensively, but overall he was dominant. The idea that these guys can't get it done in FIBA is false. They simply lacked something as their teams go. Serbia f.e. probably only lacked better chemistry and mentality as usual.

I disagree that Sabonis needs another big next to him. That would reduce spacing, unless it would be some super shooting big who can spread the floor at absolutely elite level (some-one even better than Turner). With Sabonis you have to go with him at 5. Only good PFs can help and I can see Ulanovas and Sedekerskis being next Sabonis. With Kuz it's good match offensively, but pretty horrid defensively. Sabonis still will make you better with his offense as a team, so some defensive risks are worth taking. IMO, you overrate the issues of Sabonis' wingspan and so on. He is the top rebounder of the world ATM Is Jokic a better rebounder? Only Gobert and Capela from Euros previously became top rebounders of NBA regular season. Jokic never did it. So add rebounding and superior athleticism (quickness) as Sabonis advantages against Jokic. Quicker multiple screens too probably.

As for coaches, I have doubt that Maksvytis will make adjustments. Now it's only a question whenever he will just split Domas and JV slightly more this time or will go all the way with it.

[Straight forward]

Just to give answer to the last post.

Sabonis off course has to step up and I expect that from him. But also Sabonis' value shouldn't be directly taken from points and efficiency. He involves others and that is not even always seen in assists. He play makes and plays a lot with the ball making us more versatile, but this way he commits more TOs so the efficiency decline, f.e. All I'm saying we shouldn't compare Domas and JV in terms of statistics. JV just scores inside and grabs rebounds. Sabonis is in full motion all the time. Always busy. With that said, I don't disagree - he has to step up that there wouldn't be any doubts that he's better and he must avoid stupid turnovers and so on. I expect him to be more solid and matured.

BUT! Let's not forget it's JV who fouled him self out of the game against Spain. Shawshank is so silent on the fact that it's JV who was by far the biggest choker of the tournament because he absolutely disappeared when we most needed. Willy was a good match for him, but he lost everything. JV was 29,8mpg kinda player before 8finals against Spain. Yes, it happened partly because Sabonis struggled, but he struggled playing at 4. In other words all these 29.8ppg is center's minutes. So Sabonis was completely pushed out from C position, except the game against Hungary when Sabonis played more at 5 and unleashed 30eff game and the game against Spain when JV fouled out and Sabonis unleashed 20eff game.

So Domas was pretty good unleashed at C position if you ask me.

But also one has to be consistent and just admit that both JV and Grigonis choked when we needed them most. Facts.