Lithuanian Point Guards

[Straight forward]

Agreed here. Kariniauskas should prove himself in Eurocup first cause if he would move to Zalgiris I'm afraid it would be just lightly less sad story of D. Sabeckis. We seen that even Dimsa didn't convince Schiller and I think Dimsa played in more competitive environment with Lietkabelis last season. We know that Jokubaitis can snatch a role in Zalgiris, he does that, I'm far from convinced that Kariniauskas could do that, more like I'm more sure that he wouldn't.

[Straight forward]

I'm really high on what Augis can provide at D end. He is bullying here and there in LKL already, the way he sometimes eats alive some of best LKL guards is something, going for nasty steals. I had to check his stats at U16 (his age group) and I found it a stat which, IMO, inever matched by anyone form Liths. 20 steals in 7 games. 3 steals per game is a nasty stat. His dad had 3,1 steals per game in 1992 OG which is nothing but HUGE, but even Rooney did that in much more playing time. Augis was snatching 3 steals in 22min in U16. Now he has 1.1stl in 13min in LKL, that's underrated stat. F.e. Walkup is 1.2stl in 22min. Augis has literally the strongest, longest and quickest hands any other Lith prospect ever had, could be even better than his 18yo dad.

[Mindozas]

Man, you just can't put Olympic stats and u16 stats into comparison no matter how you are hyped about the player That looks simply crazy to compare in any way. Ok that you try to find any angle to hype a player, but this goes a bit over the line Moreover the same way it looks unfair to say things like "we ever had", maybe "I ever saw" or smth like that would suit better. We had lot of amazing talents which we don't know much about or the ones who didn't make it. The same father Marciulionis was superior physically at this age, he was already physical beast with great motor

[Straight forward]

Man, you just can't put Olympic stats and u16 stats into comparison no matter how you are hyped about the player That looks simply crazy to compare in any way. Ok that you try to find any angle to hype a player, but this goes a bit over the line Moreover the same way it looks unfair to say things like "we ever had", maybe "I ever saw" or smth like that would suit better. We had lot of amazing talents which we don't know much about or the ones who didn't make it. The same father Marciulionis was superior physically at this age, he was already physical beast with great motor

That wasn't the point to compare Augis' U16 with Rooney's 1992 campaign. The point was that it's extremely difficult to find 3 steals per game at any serious level, starting with U16 tournaments and ending up to OG. Lukauskis is the best all time ball hawk of LKL and he never had 3 steals per game, but was really close in couple of seasons. I mean the potential is here for Augustas to be special ball hawk and a great defensive guard, whenever it will happen I can't say, but chances are interesting. John Stockton is the best stealer ever of NBA. He has 3st per game and 3.2 as his best record. And he was playing 39min in that record season. Jason Kid is second and he has 2.3 record. At this point Rooney's 3.1st in OG is crazy number. 3st per game as that line when you are a BEAST defensively (if that PRO level). Pacer T.J.McConnell leading NBA this season with 2. U16 is not NBA and not OG obviously, I'm aware of that, but even if you would track down stats at this level, I doubt you will find a guy who would give you 3 steals in 22min, what Marciulionis did. This alone stat is very intriguing even from neutral stand point. Also, as I said, Marciulionis has Walkup's steals number playing lesser minutes in LKL. Not to say that Marciulionis now will be superstar defensive player, but let's agree that's intriguing.

PS: Euroleague's record is 2.9st by Ginobili in 2000/2001 season.
PS2: Seibutis has 1.6st as his best season in LKL.

[Straight forward]

If Ludux won't show up with the stat line which beats Augustas U16 campaign, it doesn't exist

[Straight forward]

OK, so all time steals freak of Youth BB obviously is Rubio, he didn't dominate U16, he indescribably destroyed that competition, with 23pts,13rbs,7as and 6,5st in 33min. That's crazy. He was treated as bigger prodigy than Doncic at that time. Interesting that in NBA he has 2.4st as record, very good, but nothing spectacular. Nevertheless he became a really good defensive player. Now Doncic didn't play at U16, but another highly drafted European guard K. Hayes (7th pick) had 2.7st in 29min. Rubio's numbers are crazy at U16 and he remained red hot with 4st in 29 min at U18, but other than freakish Rubio, Marciulionis stat is super impressive.

[Hepcat]

Man, you don't have to downgrade Kariniauskas or LKL to make Velicka look better

Downgrading other players to make personal favourites look better in comparison is an unfortunate bad habit of several posters here.

[Straight forward]

Downgrading other players to make personal favourites look better in comparison is an unfortunate bad habit of several posters here.

Sure, Hepcat, you just have to come with another crazy observation as you did after first Vilnius' bubble saying that at the moment "Velicka is surely better than Jokubaitis", to announce that Kariniauskas must go instead of Jokubaitis, while you watched zero of Zalgiris actual EL games and have no ideas what can one or other player can (including Kariniauskas as well, cause you don't watch LKL either) and lastly to favor Butkevicius no matter what that you would strengthen your positions here as of one who can judge other posters partialities. Maybe some posters here just lacking couple of degrees at educational institutions.

[Hepcat]

Talk about touchy! I actually think that one of your regular debating opponents here has been even worse in that regard over the years. Nonetheless:

Sure, Hepcat, you just have to come with another crazy observation as you did after first Vilnius' bubble saying that at the moment "Velicka is surely better than Jokubaitis"....

I absolutely didn't use the word "surely". My statement was much more mild than that. Secondly over the last few years you yourself have lavished lots of praise on Velička as an up-and-coming youngster and potential future PG for the national team. Isn't that also an apt description of Jokubaitis? So how was my observation comparing what I've seen of their play for the national team "crazy"?

...to announce that Kariniauskas must go instead of Jokubaitis, while you watched zero of Zalgiris actual EL games and have no ideas what can one or other player can (including Kariniauskas as well, cause you don't watch LKL either)....

Watching players on TV can leave a very misleading impression for several reasons. Observers will naturally remember highlights of their play for one thing. (And I really don't care which player has the better behind-the-back crossover.) But their play away from the ball is tough to notice/judge. Moreover human nature being what it is, we all view the performance of our favourites through rose tinted glasses and are most strongly influenced by what we saw most recently. You will note that I don't trumpet good or bad performances by Jokubaitis or Kariniauskas in any particular club game. Quite simply I believe these things all wash out in the stats over a few months.

Nor have I said anything negative about Jokubaitis other than pointing out that at the age of twenty I don't think he's ready for crunch time on the Olympic stage. This is a viewpoint which another one of our regular posters, Shawshank, shares with me.

...and lastly to favor Butkevicius no matter what....

If you check my latest Olympic team projections, you'll find that I'm uncertain as to whether a place on the team can be found for Arnas Butkevičius (though I really like his intensity and hustle).

Maybe some posters here just lacking couple of degrees at educational institutions.

But I've never claimed to have any kind of degree in basketball. I've merely claimed to be an ardent fan and interested observer who doesn't let loyalties to any particular LKL club influence his thinking.

Since however you're pointing out my most abject failings as a fan and poster, I'll point out yours. You all too often condemn Lithuanian players as being low IQ players. A charge this serious needs to be backed with not just casual observation from the comfort of one's armchair but with reams of statistical data, perhaps turnovers plus fouls versus steals plus assists, personal +/- versus team +/-, whatever. (I don't know, what do professional basketball observers use?) But you can't just casually make that charge.

[Shawshank]

Hepcat

Yes I think that Jokubaitis is not ready for this Olympics, because I saw how our biggest 3 young tallents of last decade looked at Olympics at similiar age.

Jonas at 20 in 2012, Sabonis at 20 and Grigonis at 22 in 2016.

But do I think it was mistake to take those generational tallents ? no I dont, it was right thing to do .

I don't expect nothing from Rokas in this Olympic summer, but expecting big things from him going further.

Jokubaitis is Kalnietis succeeder, he must get his feet wet in those NT tournaments as soon as possible, before we can dream he can seriuosly help our NT in most hardest position to play.

Valanciunas is leader of 1992 generation
Grigonis is leader of 1994
Sabonis is leader of 1996
Sedekerskis is leader of 1998
Jokubaitis is leader of 2000 generation

That kind of tallents I think is smart to take to NT sooner than later as investment for the future even in Olympic year.But also Iearned watching in first 1-2 years do not expect big things even from such generational tallents playing againts best men.

It takes few tournaments even for them to figure it out things.

Where I always disagree with SFT when he tries to put 4-5 such rookies together that's formula for disaster in such tournaments if NT plan is to fight for place in semifinal.

[Straight forward]

Hepcat, there's a reason, you know, why scouts are not only watching tons of videos all day long, but also actually travels to arenas which open ups even more angles and little things. You have to watch bb Otherwise, you would be the best scout in the world, not only you don't need to watch the game and travel (which costs), but you get the most objective viewpoint nevertheless Seriously, not everybody sees things while watching, but watching is necessary condition.

IDU, why are you so sensitive about general usage of "BB IQ" term. All BB world uses it. The fact is that some players are higher, some lower IQ, that's all. We're not equal and will never be. That's not disrespectful.

Shaw, I have only Jokubaitis and Sedekerskis in my roster of 2021 as rookies and they come rather naturally (I don't expect much from them, but I think during the tournament they will have a role).

[Mindozas]

That wasn't the point to compare Augis' U16 with Rooney's 1992 campaign. The point was that it's extremely difficult to find 3 steals per game at any serious level, starting with U16 tournaments and ending up to OG. Lukauskis is the best all time ball hawk of LKL and he never had 3 steals per game, but was really close in couple of seasons. I mean the potential is here for Augustas to be special ball hawk and a great defensive guard, whenever it will happen I can't say, but chances are interesting. John Stockton is the best stealer ever of NBA. He has 3st per game and 3.2 as his best record. And he was playing 39min in that record season. Jason Kid is second and he has 2.3 record. At this point Rooney's 3.1st in OG is crazy number. 3st per game as that line when you are a BEAST defensively (if that PRO level). Pacer T.J.McConnell leading NBA this season with 2. U16 is not NBA and not OG obviously, I'm aware of that, but even if you would track down stats at this level, I doubt you will find a guy who would give you 3 steals in 22min, what Marciulionis did. This alone stat is very intriguing even from neutral stand point. Also, as I said, Marciulionis has Walkup's steals number playing lesser minutes in LKL. Not to say that Marciulionis now will be superstar defensive player, but let's agree that's intriguing.

PS: Euroleague's record is 2.9st by Ginobili in 2000/2001 season.
PS2: Seibutis has 1.6st as his best season in LKL.

He has good numbers, but there's no point comparing u16 and senior bball stats trying to find some parallels. That is plain wrong thing to do u16 is completely different world. 2-3 steals for best players in that category is common thing, there're plenty of such guys, but in senior bball going over 2 is hard thing to achieve, let alone 3. Nowadays you could find only few such if any. Simply cause it's much harder thing to do than in teen competition. You mentioned Rubio, I remember that u16 final where he had 50+pts and ~25 rebounds... not only talent, but maturity plays big role too, as I wrote - it's totally different world

[Straight forward]

He has good numbers, but there's no point comparing u16 and senior bball stats trying to find some parallels. That is plain wrong thing to do u16 is completely different world. 2-3 steals for best players in that category is common thing, there're plenty of such guys, but in senior bball going over 2 is hard thing to achieve, let alone 3. Nowadays you could find only few such if any. Simply cause it's much harder thing to do than in teen competition. You mentioned Rubio, I remember that u16 final where he had 50+pts and ~25 rebounds... not only talent, but maturity plays big role too, as I wrote - it's totally different world

I probably agree that at u16 we can track down a little more occasions of great defensive stats, but it's far from plenty of guys who even would snatch 2,5 steals per game at this level. F.e. I think we would have a hard time finding another Lithuanian who would have at least 2,5. And whole Europe wise it's only few guys who sits around 3. It's much rarer than it seems. Not Janavicius, not Butkevicius, nor Sedekerskis had that (whoever else we have as good defenders). I checked u16 MVPs list and from 19 guys it's just Rubio and Hayes as the ones who had more than 2,5st. Maybe with an advance search we would come up with more great ball hawks, but I doubt it's a huge difference than in PRO level pure numbers wise.

Let's see how Marciulionis will look at U19 (his age group). I bet his defensive (as well as offensive) impact will be huge.

[Shawshank]

Steals is one of the indicators of defence,but by no means is not the only one.

Iverson or Westbrook multiple times made top 5 in steals in nba and in same years was considered holes in defence.

If players risks alot going for steal that not good defender.He leaves his team 4 vs 5.

Nobody was considering S.Marciulionis or steal king J.Stockton elite defenders back in their day at best solid one.

If your steals comes naturally without gambling that were good defence starts.

Stats dont show what can of steals players is grabbing. With teams defence concept or gambling alot.

From what i saw Augustas steals are real ones taking it from his own opponents hands like his father used to do.

[Straight forward]

No, off course, there's plenty of traits to name for a good defender. Your positioning, ability to go through screens, burst, agility. At the moment Marciulionis lacking a bit more strength, but ability to go harder through screens improved vastly during the season. Regarding risking it's true, but Liths generaly doesn't have this problem...maybe only Kaukenas and Kleiza had issues with that, they tend to be dumb ass here and there, more like because of their temper Marciulionis, IMO, has everything to be very good defender.

Well, Stocton was always a great defender, IDK were you get this impression that he wasn't treated as one. He was making Jordan frustrated, the best scoring modern player ever. "The next season he made his first All-Star game and led the league in assists and steals. Stockton could get it done on both ends of the guard. He was a high-level offensive and defensive player. He averaged a double-double in points and assists 10 times in his career, and he did it for nine straight seasons." As for S.Marciulionis, again, he also was pissing of Jordan too He just wasn't some big star in NBA to attract much of attention, not saying that in NBA he was surely elite defender, but very solid at least for sure. Westbrook is a good defender when he want it, even great, it's just that he doesn't have consistent motor, he sometimes just resting at D intentionally. "Westbrook is a good defender when he wants to be. He is athletic, long and strong. However, there were several times this season when he's played loose defense on his man to get rebounds and pad his stats a bit more. ... When he wants to play defense, he is probably one of the best defensive point guards in the game."