Kaunas Zalgiris Thread

[Mindozas]

Indeed, Kunigelis is even worse. And I'm surprised he signed up for this.

To me, not only Petrauskas tries too hard to be cool and emotional, but his terminology and commentating style is way outdated, maybe he can catch up with that (I don't think you can do it fast though, and he was writing history books and plenty other stuff so he wasn't deep into contemporary ball for sure), but the biggest problem that he always has been bad at eye test. Like Geben is obviously late with his screen, Petrauskas watches the replay "and there was no foul, no foul, the ref made a mistake", I just can't tolerate such crap To me Vysniauskas and Ceponis due was spot on. Vysniauskas is objective and possesses all contemporary terminology and insights, while Ceponis brings cringy yet pretty fun jokes (often self irony) and he's much better at eye test and analysis of the game. I also thought Kazlauskas, Vysniauskas due was good enough. I believe current Vysniauskas and Leksas duo would be my favourite game analysis wise, maybe I will have to follow them somehow, because I think those two have the best basketball eye test from all current basketball journalists, commentators, podcasters.

Leksas indeed is good analytic, he shares lot of good ideas in his articles, sad that in bnews podcasts there is hyperactive guy like Tiskevicius with full bag of nonsenses, he just overshadows any interesting thoughts of others, so I can't listen to it, unless some interesting guest is in studio or I just go the timelines where you can expect less of Tiskevicius. Didn't hear Leksas as commentator, I think him + Vysniauskas might be in the same situation like Kazlauskas + Petrauskas are, both are too similar. Watching live and knowing little bit what game of bball is about, most of the times I don't really care about full time play-by-play analysis, I want some good emotions too. So I'd love to have some mix here. But no Ceponis please, great guy to have few beers with, but not as commentator, not in my book

[Straight forward]

Shawshank, I think what we are facing now has no precedent in Lith BB history. We never had three young PG true studs coming at the same time, plus already established and relatively young Lekavicius (26) as a solid EL backup. In three decades we never seen anything like that. And I would add that guys like say Dovydas Giedraitis, who was playing like PG in some tournaments (like WC U19 as 17yo, together with Jokibaitis) and some Beliauskas are shaping to be better at 1 than the options like Markevicius, Lukminas, Delininkaitis, Juskevicius, Delininkaitis... The guys that we used as fillers to stuff the hole at 1. So it's completely different situation. But, yeah, this Jokubaitis moment is special. We see an elite youngster who comes and proclaims his will at he highest level. To me, there's some vibes of Macijauskas, Siskauskas, Jasikevicius here. Specially, first 2 did something great in European tournaments early on. I don't remember similar moment with Kalnietis like that. Yes, Mantas looked decently as 20yo in WC, but Jokubaitis here showed something even different. His maturity, IQ and physical/mental toughness is something else for his age. IMO, we faced the real evidence of true elite guard prevailing for the first time since 00s greats.

Mindozas, agree Tiskevicius rants are something. I just have no idea who that emotional and yet spot on commentator could be now. Maybe Kazlauskas if he wasn't such a geek and petite guy. I think we lack such. It used to be Kunigelis and Petrauskas, and from new generation...there's none. I'm fine with Ceponis to be honest for now

[Shawshank]

If you think that all 3 those prommising young pg players will become seriuos NT players you clearly didn't learn nothing from history.

The are reasons why 90% of European NT struggles with pg position and even naturalise Americans exactly there.

Atleats 50% of those youngsters you are so high on i can already say now will fail to reach longterm NT players level.

Kalnietis on his euroleague debut at 19 comming from nkl I remember clearly he was like fresh breath of air just went all the way and dunked the ball bravely with no hesitation and had 10+pts in away game against spanish team.In that moment I thought that kid has something extra in him.You didn't had back then or even now manny pg that dunking ball like that

Same with Jokubaitis i feel watching him he has something extra I can't explain.

there is no passiveness he just plays bravely and goes for it.Obviuosly Rokas has advantage it's already his 3 season around zalgiris.Mantas was just put on fire by Sireika and it helped him alot even with his later struggles he had as young pg.But still that was impressive by Rokas.

[Straight forward]

If you think that all 3 those prommising young pg players will become seriuos NT players you clearly didn't learn nothing from history.

The are reasons why 90% of European NT struggles with pg position and even naturalise Americans exactly there.

Yes, I think that all three have the package to become serious NT PGs. If you think using abstract "history" criterion rather than particular empirical data and observation is correct way to judge then you wrong. You simply speculating, rationalising. I don't say that all three will surely prevail because there are such things as injuries, declined motivation, very bad career choices, unexpected development circles (and Velicka from all three has the most risks), but as prospects they qualify the projection of elite or borderline elite Euro PG prospects. That's not only my, long time BB observers', eye test projection, but PRO scouts project that as well.

And your abstract history criterion is too impicit and false as well. F.e. you missing the fact that say in 1999 and in early 00's, Spain didn't have a single true elite PG. 10 years later Spain had Raul Lopez, Sergio Rodriguez, Jose Calderon, Sergio Lull and Ricky Rubio. From 0, suddenly Spain had 5 elite PGs. And now, after Rubio's decline, they might not have a single or only one elite PG again (Carlos Alocén is really promising). So, you should look over your history narratives and paradigms again.

there is no passiveness he just plays bravely and goes for it.Obviuosly Rokas has advantage it's already his 3 season around zalgiris.Mantas was just put on fire by Sireika and it helped him alot even with his later struggles he had as young pg.

You answered everything by yourself. Kalnietis was a young stud, but Jokubaitis has even more than Kalnietis had (except leaping ability, but f.e. Jokubaitis is tougher and more sturdy than Kalnietis was at that age).

[Straight forward]

Atleats 50% of those youngsters you are so high on i can already say now will fail to reach longterm NT players level.
.

No, they won't. F.e. I think that the top prospects in Lithuania are: Tubelis, Murauskas, Marciulionis, Brazdeikis, Jokubaitis, Sirvydis, Sedekerskis, Kulboka, D. Giedraitis Velicka. Those are my TOP 10 Lith BB prospects, the best of the best and precisely selected and observed. Do you really think half of them will fail to make NT? Some of them might fail, but I really don't think half. F.e. Murauskas, Velicka, Sirvydis seemed to have issues coping with fame and hype. Yet, even Murauskas was working with Javtokas all summer long, which is extreme program. Velicka has been looking impressively physically and he intimidates opponents physically, he prepared himself physically perfectly. Sirvydis seemed to be working his ass more seriously now, even Kleiza indicated that. That's best of the best, complete physical and craft package in all cases basically and tested charakters. Some of them will fail or let's say won't live up to the hype (I personally think they all will be PROs and will have decent careers unless injuries), but it won't be half.

Remember 00's. A. Giedraitis, Salenga, Slanina or even some Adomaitis didn't become long term NT members not because they were not studs, but because we had really deep talent pool. Now I project somewhat similar leap of the talent in 20's.

[Mindozas]

Well, yeah, SF has that obsession about youngsters and tends to overhype them We used to disagree about such talents on PG/SG like Janavicius, Gecevicius back in the day. But this time I can agree that Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, even Velicka looks really promising. Jokubaitis bball fundamentals are much better than e.g. Kalnietis. Kalnas at this age had lot of things to work on, like ball handling, shooting was on really low level for a PG. He wasn't even a true PG. But he had character, working ethic and enormous will, so he succeeded. Jokubaitis also not perfect by no means, but he is simply better, more talented at all this and only needs to keep working. That's a thing you can't predict right all the time, the same like injuries. But it seems Rokas has that heritage from his dad, who was big fighter back in his LKL days and still is in veterans tournaments, so Rokas should be just fine. It's already the situation where we are not predicting a future of some guy from U-xx tournament. Marciulionis is still few steps behind, but he has all the package to be really good and fine working ethic either.
And history has nothing to do with all this situation, especially when we had so many changes in it during latest decades. If we never had few decent PGs at once, doesn't mean we could not have them ever, just one generation has better guards, other bigs. It's quite rare thing that you have good mix of all of it

[Straight forward]

We used to disagree about such talents on PG/SG like Janavicius, Gecevicius back in the day.

And it was 10 years ago If we would discuss similar to Janavicius and specially Gecevicius type of players now, I believe we would have much more solidarity this time

[Straight forward]

It's funny how Grigonis and Jokubaitis can't share and compete for the ball in last seconds possessions of the quarters or games now Noticed that couple of times recently. Like Grigonis was reaching hands towards the ball in one of clutch possessions against OLY, but Jukabutis went for his own drive ("and one" situation). Now against Pieno Zvaigzdes Jokubaitis demands the ball t the end of second quarter, Grigonis ignores him and handles the ball by himself. Two good players with big egos and big hearts. Jokubaitis eventually will be better Now Grigonis tries to do even more than he can at times, but it's OK under this situation, soon he will figure it out his most adequate leadership role.

[Svajunas]

It's good that Grigonis is overdoing things. He was a very good player in last years, but he always struggled in clutch posetions. He looses his dribble quite often and host a prayer at the end of clock instead of calmly creating a shot for himself. For me this season is all about him. He has a chance to take the next step and become elite EL player and move on to elite club or he will hit his ceiling. Good luck Marius.

Having Jokubaitis growing besides him is a big bonus.

[Straight forward]

I predict that 16yo Murauskas will get his chance to play in LKL during this season. He will be filling the stats sheets in NKL already. Wouldn't be surprised to see something like 14pts, 7rbs. Zalgiris didn't have true Lithuanian NBA prospect in his roster since...when?

[LuDux]

Zalgiris didn't have true Lithuanian NBA prospect in his roster since...when?

Last EL game?

[Straight forward]

Last EL game?

Nope. D.Motiejunas 2007/08.

Jokubaitis is in territory of late second round/undrafted (more like latter). Just as Velicka who, IMO, is better fit to NBA with his more physical profile and even playing style to some extent.

[Dreamcatcher]

I don't understund why it's matter at all if anybody is NBA prospect or just a very good prospect. It has sense that Jokubaitis is exactly very good. Historically our basketball is much more about European one than NBA. Golden 2003 team didn't have any single NBA player. Most of our best players were not suited for NBA so i care only how good anyone can be in European basketball.

Edit: well, Songaila moved from CSKA to Kings exactly in 2003, but it doesn't change a lot.

[Straight forward]

I don't understund why it's matter at all if anybody is NBA prospect or just a very good prospect. It has sense that Jokubaitis is exactly very good. Historically our basketball is much more about European one than NBA. Golden 2003 team didn't have any single NBA player. Most of our best players were not suited for NBA so i care only how good anyone can be in European basketball.

Edit: well, Songaila moved from CSKA to Kings exactly in 2003, but it doesn't change a lot.

I see what you mean and I agree. However, it matters because true NBA prospect/material means that you have special player, the one who can prevail in all leagues of the world and likely can drag NT on his own shoulders literally (if that's not traditional center because traditional bruisers are limited in tiny and rigid FIBA courts). And looking historically, most of the times we were lead by NBA players. 1992–1999 Marciulionis, Sabonis. 2009–2013 Kleiza, 2014–2019 Valanciunas. Golden stretch 2000–2007 is an exception, and we still had Songaila, Jasikevicius, Macijauskas as NBA players to some extent and even maybe the best fit to NBA Siskauskas as potential NBA player all these years. The best example is always this: who would you take? Prime Jasikevicius, or prime Marciulionis? There's no question prime Marciulionis would rip Jasikevicius apart and would spit his blood all over the court, it wouldn't even be close. If we ever again have solid NBA guard, most likely that will be huge (even if NBA changed and soften since Rooney days a lot, but still) and special most likely. I'm all fine with good or elite EL players, you can win titles and Olympic medals with such breed, but true NBA player probably means that you have someone who can climb all over USA team defences, something special.

[Toruko]

The style of NBA Basketball is different. Its mostly based on creating on 1 vs 1 and in order to survive their you must be able to create for a certain extend. A player that can unlock defenses just by himself is very precious but it depends on the guy as well. International basketball defensive sets are different, rules are different, space is tight which is why shooting is so important.

Especially for a team like Lithuania which has no go to guy to unlock a defense in crunch time would be very important and valuable. A good start would be a guy who can create for others. Augustas is a very skilled passer but a very bad decision maker so far but he is light years ahead of Mantas for example. A Augustas - Rokas couple is a pair you can work with