All time NT

[LuDux]

OK Boomer

[Straight forward]

OK Boomer

Spot on

its more unbelievable how badly our 2020s NT underperform with obviuos more tallent compared to 2010s.

2020s NT is not about lack of tallent is about lack of character and toughness. Those internet grown kids are very soft in all areas on basketball court compared even to 2010s generation.

In 20s so far we only took place in Olympic qualification 2021 where more talented Slovenia beat us. I wouldn't say we underperformed, we could be coached better, but that's all. Doncic present Slovenia was a beast, it was seen in Olympic it self. It was pretty clear that Slovenia has an edge how they performed even in exhibition stage, Doncic made it smooth mechanism and overall Slovenia had better perimeter and thus better team overall. 2020's is the stretch between 2020-2029.

While I agree wee need hard nosed bruisers, tough guys, emotional leaders (certain decline in gutsiness emerging), current NT is still absolutely about the lack of talent. We ain't have a single elite guard while teams like Serbia, France have several. Overperformances (with plenty of favorable conditions) in 2013-2015 stretch knocked out the objective evaluation of NT retrospectively for you. You tend to vastly overrate that stretch and to (unconsciously probably) ignore the fact that Lithuania in 10's absolutely ceased to be what it used to be in 90's and 00's talent wise. And if we recently are stepping up slowly talent wise compared to 10's, we are still far away from where we been in 90's-00's.

[madmax]

I don't even think it's our talent level going down that much or us heavily underperforming on the biggest stage for one reason or another which contributed to our massive downfall on the basketball scene - it's just a simple matter of basketball getting way more popular worldwide compared to the 90's or even 00's, when only few teams in Europe could have been considered as professional to begin with imo. Nowadays you have to play hard even against so called basketball minnows like Belgium or Czech Republic, which would have been unthinkable just mere 20 years ago. We are logicaly getting worse compared to the rest of the basketball nations simply because we don't have enough talent pool to choose from as other big countries of 50+ million people

[Shawshank]

I don't even think it's our talent level going down that much or us heavily underperforming on the biggest stage for one reason or another which contributed to our massive downfall on the basketball scene - it's just a simple matter of basketball getting way more popular worldwide compared to the 90's or even 00's, when only few teams in Europe could have been considered as professional to begin with imo. Nowadays you have to play hard even against so called basketball minnows like Belgium or Czech Republic, which would have been unthinkable just mere 20 years ago. We are logicaly getting worse compared to the rest of the basketball nations simply because we don't have enough talent pool to choose from as other big countries of 50+ million people

if look from not lithuanian perspective exactly that what is happenning.

Is insane to think that 2,5million people population gonna grow so manny tallents to compete with 10 times bigger population countries tallent pools to choose from decade after decade.

Basketball is more and more popular so more and more kids in other countries goes there instead of football and competion is getting tougher and tougher.

In order to win we will have to gut and fight our way there like Kazlauskas 2010s NT or Jasikevicius Zalgiris.

In pure basketball tallent we simply will lose and are loosing it since 2008 because of population of kids to choose from.

[Shawshank]

2019 and 2021 it was same team.And both times we didnt have toughness just played like good boys by the rules.

I repeat again if one men is beating entire team faul him f***ing hard,put him on the ground get unsportman type faul, but make him thinking and do not let feel comfortably. Let him guessing when other punch is comming.

Was nothing similiar to that. I saw just good boys trying to win basketball game with obviuos lack of tallent on perimeter where games is decided in 2020s.

Untill we gonna find boys that will start *LUPTIS* otherwise with such weak tallent on perimeter no semifinals appereances for our NT.

2010s with all of lack of tallent those 1984-1986 born boys fought very hard and sport gods rewarded them for that.

[Straight forward]

The thing is that we always were super small, even in 90s and 00's. People forget that in 90s Greece, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Russia, Italy had great teams. In 00s Spain, Germany, Greece, Italy, Serbia, France and some others had great teams. Nothing really changes, basketball getting more popular, but we simply were able to have standing out teams talent and coherence wise. The craziness about basketball in Lithuania shouldn't be underrated. Turkey may have 80mill population, but basketball will never be the cult there as it is here. And, no, things didn't change all that radically. In 90s and 00s we used to also have problems with mediocre teams. Basketball off course evolved, but it's not like day and night in comparison.

Shaw, you overestimate that toughness moment. If it would be that simple, many mediocre teams would thrive. But you can't just play bully basketball and to win games It's not boxing. Talent against lesser talent will prevail 98% of time. If you want to win by beating in basketball court you will have to rely on these 2% and you will be waiting long years till elbows specialists as Škučas will give you wins against prime talent. You underrate Šaras brilliance badly if you think toughness moment is the key in Šaras team. It's only one of the component, while his methodically polished system and religious research of opponent's weak spots were the key. And it's not like we won in 2013-2015. We were playing with big heart, but we also managed to perform high level as basketball team. We found some balance scoring in and out and peaked at the right time. Pacesas would be the best point guard of all time (well, after Marciulionis) if boxing would be so effective in BB court as you imagine

[Shawshank]

5 best teams in all decades was good.But 8-20 NT is getting alot better to compared what they used to be in 90s or 00s.

in 80 and 90s kids was getting info what their ale wise coach knew. Now I can live in africa and download best coaching videos how train kids.

Thats were is diffrece compared top 90s and why millions population matter way more than before.

Sure back in newspapers and radio days those countries that had good coaches had overhelming advantage in today internet era not so much.

In 90s there were no normal basketball schools in last 15 years every country has multiple of academies and so on. From 20million population even not the best coach will find more world class tallents than from 2 million best coaches will if everybody is training in similiar way.

Now after 15-20 years we can see results of those academies all over the world.

Today coaches dont need to fly to america and bring some training ideas written on some paper by hand like in 80 or 90s.You can simply download video from youtube how train kids by usa basketball programs

ps. you dont understand physicality in defence and boxing.

Nobody said we need 12 boxers,but surely we dont need 10 soft shooting type players either. IF we cant out tallent elite NT,we must try outhustle and outmuscle with psysicality in defence those technical elite players like Kazlauskas NT or Sharas zalgiris teams.

They shown how we still can compete with elite. Pure basketball tallent battle we already lost to elite NT 10 years ago when first basketball academy best kids came on international stage.

Going further it will be even tougher compete with just tiny 2,5 million population. Unless IN Lithuania Sabonis/Gasol/Doncic tallent kid is born and we just dont know yet.

[Straight forward]

Tougher, more athletic, feistier...Sure, I agree with you on this. But nevertheless that alone won't allow us to truly compete against elite. Besides, even FIBA games are handled in various ways. Sometimes refs allow real contact, sometimes every touch is being called and then all you have is the skill and IQ to survive. At the end of the day you either have talent or not. IMO, Lithuania even with small population has incredible culture implicitly to expect good talents to prevail. The love of the game is in country's DNA. I think we will manage to stay at least borderline elite for many upcoming decades. The question only is whenever we are transcending that line and becoming truly elite or not. Thus far we had been elite for 2 decades and boderline elite for 1 decade. What will happen in next decades we don't know, time will tell, but I like the symptoms of 1998-2004 generations, and Buzelis may be true game changer so his decision will be very important.

[LuDux]

I think we can safely declare Lekavicius best Lithuanian player under 190 since Kazys Petkevicius from 60s

[Straight forward]

We should organize all lefty NT competition Might be among strong, strong contenders

Jokubaitis, Lekavicius, Kariniauskas (Janavicius, T. Sargiunas)
Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius,
Ulanovas, Sirvydis
Sabonis, Tubelis, Jankunas
Motiejunas, Birutis

[Straight forward]

OK, pure talent wise rankings. Not NT achievements, just pure talent, pure level. That's how I see top 5 players per position.

Centers

1. A. Sabonis
2. D. Sabonis
3. J. Valanciunas
4. Z. Ilgauskas
5. R. Javtokas

Power forwards:

1. Kleiza.
2. Songaila
3. Motiejunas
4. Jankunas
5. K. Lavrinovic

Small forwards

1. Karnisovas.
2. Siskauskas.
3. Stombergas
4. J. Maciulis
5. M. Timinskas

Sooting guards

1. Marciulionis
2. Macijauskas.
3. Kurtinaitis
4. Kaukenas
5. Grigonis

Point guards

1. Jasikevicius
2. Chomicius
3. Kalnietis
4. Lekavicius
5. Jokubaitis

Sorry, Maskoliunas, I do believe current Jokubaitis is already better PG than you were in your prime (and I don't know if Lekavicius is any better now than Jokubaitis, it's very close). Tough decision between Einikis and Javtokas, but I do think Javtokas with his athleticism and D presence were more impactful overall. Why Chomicius is better than Kalnietis? Cause Chomicius was great defender and could drop 40pts in the high level team. Kalnietis could not do this, but he's better facilitator.

Any disagreements?

[Shawshank]

I consider if go just by tallent not achievements

D.Lavrinovic,Einikis >Javtokas
Kuzminskas>Timinskas
Motiejunas>Songaila
Kalnietis>Chomicius

for me such players like Javtokas,Songaila,Chomicius was defensive horses ,but not super tallented gifted. They achieve alot because of character and hard work not some pure tallent.

Chomicius wasnt some super tallent,but as hard worker would go to all time ltu top 5.

For me somehow is disrespectfull that on 10 players from C and PF there no place for nr all time 1 player by scored point Einikis in NT history.

The only lithuanian that is 3 time olympic medalist 1992-2000.That played both C and PF in NT and were tournaments were he averaged 16pts+ per game.

Play near Sabonis that got all the balls and still average 10pts in 1996 Olympics and then go to play for Cska type teams shown on what level he was in late 1990s.

[Straight forward]

I consider if go just by tallent not achievements

D.Lavrinovic,Einikis >Javtokas
Kuzminskas>Timinskas
Motiejunas>Songaila
Kalnietis>Chomicius

for me such players like Javtokas,Songaila,Chomicius was defensive horses ,but not super tallented gifted. They achieve alot because of character and hard work not some pure tallent.

Chomicius wasnt some super tallent,but as hard worker would go to all time ltu top 5.

For me somehow is disrespectfull that on 10 players from C and PF there no place for nr all time 1 player by scored point Einikis in NT and the only lithuanian that is 3 time olympic medalist.That played both C and PF in NT and were tournaments were he averaged 16pts+ per game.

Yeah, that makes sense.

My criteria was a little bit mixed. I still had not pure talent, but level as well. F.e. there's no way that Jankunas could provide such things as D-Mo was providing for the PO Rockets just before that fatal injury. He was a solid starter. And NBA is still the best league in the world. Maybe, at this point D-Mo should be superior to Songaila as well, but I believe prime Songaila was very close being a starter as well, he was better defender than D-Mo and pretty solid offensively, so it's really close.

In other words, I didn't judge by pure talent, I still judge what kind of heights player achieved in his prime. F.e. Timinskas was a contributor for EL contender, Kuz never was such. Besides, Timinskas was great defender and Kuz sucks at it. Defensive ability, IMO, is just as much talent as scoring. You can't learn that. Some players have defensive motor, some don't, and you can't learn this, you can't become great defender just with hard work. That's why to me Javtokas and Einikis are equally talented. You seem to relate talent with natural offensive abilities, but talent is not only offense, IMO.

Even about Chomicius. Can you really become great scorer just because of a hard work? I don't think you can. You either have that natural accuracy and touch or not. If you don't. even maniacal trainings won't do it. Don't you think Domas Sabonis would be great shooter if that would be the case? The guy has terrific working ethics, you can't keep him away from working, he eats and sleeps right. But he simply is not great shooter, he's not very talented as a shooter.

[Straight forward]

It's fair to say that this decade will be first one when we will be plucking the harvest because of our huge basketball tradition and love
Here's players who are ex players or coaches kids:

Jokubaitis
Marciulionis
Lukosius
Sirvydis
Buzelis
Sabonis

From now on it should be a steady thing. USA always feed their basketball from hereditary, having Jr. this and that. Our basketball blossomed only with 90s and we needed time to really explode with such culture. Ever since popularity only grew. Now I hear that Saras' son is pretty good, playing among older guys in Barsa. We'll see what happens with Siska's, Macijauskas', Kleiza's sons ect.

[LuDux]

Chomicius made debut in Zalgiris at 18, in Soviet NT at 20. Doesn't sound like late bloomer. When exactly did he broke out?