All time NT

[Mindozas]

I think that documentary made a bit too big impact/impression on you

[Shawshank]

it could made some influence recent sure but facts dont lie. Argentina won against Usa/Italy and we lost both games against same teams in most important stage

Argentina road was tougher and that road made them way better prepared mentally for 2 main games.

Our NT 2004 was sexy team that played without defence in same way like Brasil some NT football teams played without goalkeeper at some point in can come and hunt you,doesnt matter how dominating offensive team you are.To win it all against the best you must to have entire package.

To let Italians score 100 in semifinal and Usa 104 in bronze is literally playing football game without goalkeeper . If that team 2004 would had Kazlauskas built defence thats would have be another story,but with Sireikas lack of defence we didnt made best of our most talented Olympic team ever

Argentina hold italians to 69 and americans to 81 thats how you win in playoofs !

[Straight forward]

Not sure if the right thread, but I was thinking about best Lithuanian SLASHERS of all time. I don't think there's competition at No.1. I mean, common, prime ROONEY is at completely another level Prime ROONEY may be the best EURO slasher of all time, minus prevailing prodigy DONCIC. But then things get more tricky. Who's second? We may count on an eye test or whatever, but I think one of the most objective stat is drawn fouls and easier to track stat: free throws. I could even argue that I found the criterion that separates elite guards from non elite guards. That is, how many three throws they shoot per season or per game. And here we go, in EL per season, Macijauskas is the guy who has the most FT launched (122) in 2004 TAU season. Second goes Jasikevicius (118) with one of golden Maccabi seasons. Third goes Siskauskas (104) particularly in his MVP season. And that's where things...goes down. Interesting thing is, that our most succeeded guatd of 10's Kalnietis, who was a good slasher, has only 38 FTs as a record in his best EL season with Lokomotive. Pocius also was a good slasher and prime Pocius probably even better slasher than Kalnietis, has 65 FTs (solid 4 FTs attempts per game) in his best Zalgiris season.

To be more precise, here's FTs attempts per game:

Macijauskas shot 6,1
Kaukenas 5,1
Jasikevicius 5
Grigonis 4,4 (not full season, got injured)
Siskauskas 4,3
Pocius 4

I think this indicated that last season's Grigonis (before injury) and prime Pocius 10/11 season (11ppg) have been the players who got closest to 00's stars level wise. However, FTs and drawn fouls alone is not enough to say who's the best SLASHER. F.e. Lekavicius is really good slasher, but he doesn't draw all that much fouls because he's not looking for a contact in his finishing phase, he looks for open arae for his floaters. Or for example, Kalnietis could draw much more fouls if he has been playing at 2 and not 1 (even though Jasikevicius played 1 and still was way superior slasher than Kalnietis in terms of drawn fouls).

I would probably conclude that it goes something like this:

Marciulionis
Macijauskas
Kaukenas
Jasikevicius
Siskauskas
Pocius
Lekavicius
Grigonis

I started to think about it, because I think we have an elite SLASHERS in Velicka and Marciulionis coming up. To me, an elite slasher actually has to have strong physical profile like Rooney or Kaukenas f.e. Lekavicius and Grigonis are only good slashers, not elite ones, because I think they do not have elite physical profile, specially Lekavicius off course. These goes to the basket hard, and they draw the contact while finishing.

And I don't want to be grumpy, but I have to say criticism to Jonas Miklovas, generally a really solid basketball journalist. However, I think it's inexcusable to say something stupid like this. He said France LNB PRO A is "numskulls" league (referring to how Kalnietis described that). Really? That comes from redactor of basketball site? I mean France PRO A is treated as fifth of seventh (at worst) domestic league in Europe, there's surely way more talent and high level players than in LKL which usually stands 11th or 10th. And here comes Miklovas and says France PRO A is headless dushbags league. What then it makes of LKL? A league that is not even worth any consideration? I found it as typical pseudo wise Lithuanian BB knowledge which is often a just a simple lack of global understanding of basketball So if some Lakers run wild basketball through their main superstars and there's little game plan compared to Saras' Zalgiris, it's also "numskulls" league? I mean, come on, that's lower than it can get. I mean some arguments would be handy and some more analytical and explicit explanation...
Maybe someone could explain me, what Miklovas knows about Velicka that he is so super down on him? He disregards him as he would be nearly hopeless. I assume he might know some fact about his (probably past) charakter traits, some dumb actions and attitudes, and Mindozas here also talked about it here, but the guy at 19yo basically rocked LKL. When the last time that happened? God knows. And now he dominates France PRO A environment as 20yo. I mean what is the atrocities that Miklovas knows about Velicka that it leads him and well that guy (Tiskevicius) to nearly say that it would be almost a miracle to see Velicka as NT player? I found it extremely funny, offensive and unPRO big time It's like dudes with zero basketball eye test abilities. I'm the one who can name all weak spots and issues that Velicka has as a player, but the the progression is that he is a flat out NT material, like it has been a long time we had such obvious and promising case. I understand there's Jokubaitis and Marciulionis, both, and specially Marciulionis, are overall better prospects, but to treat Velicka, one of the brightest young guard prospects ever, like that...something.

[Shawshank]

Marciulionis as slasher with his strenght+speed was like giant in front of kids compared to other our slashers

Marciulionis in 1992 Olympics played 8 games in 4 of those games he shooted :

13/17
12/15
15/18
13/18

Those 18 free throws 2 games was both in playoofs! In 2 must win games versus Brasil and Russians.Rooney with his brutal strenght was attacking teams all game long like robot with no mercy.

So those 5 or 6 free throws as average is nothing.

Jasikevicius was not slasher at all. He was shooting all teams technicals ( the only reason that number is that high) and using his brain drawing fauls on jumshots.

Kaukenas and Macijauskas was decent slashers.Pocius was best ltu slasher in 10s.

[Straight forward]

That's why Jordan never wanted to guard him He was literally hurting anyone in front of him.

[Straight forward]

Never heard that Siska had lot of issues with Kazlauskas in 2012 CSKA, interesting:

https://www.basketnews.lt/srautas/104002-netaktiskai-su-ramunu-siskausku-atvirai-apie-2012-m-eurolygos-finala-ir-krepsinio-mokyklu-problema.html

[Mindozas]

Never heard that Siska had lot of issues with Kazlauskas in 2012 CSKA, interesting:
https://www.basketnews.lt/srautas/10...-problema.html

I've listened to it earlier today and actually wouldn't say there were lot of issues He just expected bigger role, quite natural thing for a player, but Siska was 33yo, declining for couple of years and he had infront of him EL MVP Kirilenko, but still played 24mins per game. Hard to complain about smth here IMO. Maybe Siska's memory serves him wrong, just like regarding that 2012 final, he was on court when CSKA took that 19pts lead till Oly reduced it to few points and played majority of 4th qtr. Probably memory just blocks bad parts/games

[Shawshank]

for me is also was a bit suprise what Siskauskas said.So basically he says at age of 33,5 age he still shout have played 30min per game at loaded cska roster?

He averaged 24min with loaded cska roster that season.I would say more than fair treatment from Kazlauskas.

I looked on youtube who was finishing that game with cska it was Teodosic,Sved,Chriapa,Kirilenko,Krstic...So if he is upset about Sved instead of him few months later upcomming Sved was shining in 2012 Olympic cluth moments when few months later Siskauskas retired.

For me at age of 33 Siskauskas should understand that he wasnt same player anymore,he was veteran and his stats wasnt same already in 2011 under serbian coach.

I just feel he got so manny hate about missing those clutch free throws in that game so its human nature to search to blame somebody else.

[Straight forward]

Lithuania's scoring per tournament:

1992 94.1
1995 86.1
1996 90.6
1997 89,6
1998 76,3
1999 82,9

2000 77.5
2001 72.8
2003 100,1
2004 93,8
2005 79,8
2006 79,1
2007 82
2008 85
2009 73,7

2010 82,9
2011 81,6
2012 78,2
2013 73
2014 77
2015 74.4
2016 76
2017 81.7
2019 84.8

I think 90's scoring results could be even more impressive if not very crappy 1998 WC tournament and huge fail in 1999.

In 00's we had a huge failure in 2001 and I'm a bit surprised how little we scored in 2000 OG (probably struggling in the group stage and Saras got it going in PO only). Also we had stars missing in 2005 and 2006 and to be honest 2008 was the boundary which marked the end of Lithuania's elite stretch in 1992- 2008. 2009 was not 00's, that was the start of misery So 00's scoring sheets obviously do not represent scoring talent we had. More like 2003-2004 stretch does.

In 10's our asses are saved by 2010 and 2019 a little bit, but there's obvious decline in scoring talent, obvious. IMO, there's tons of convenient circumstances got together that allowed us to snatch some medals, not only those that we discussed so many times, but also the fact that other powerhouses in 10's declined as well, like inconsistent Serbia, Greece, Croatia, Germany, Slovenia, ect. Only Spain and France remained red hot, as for others it was a dog fight.

And despite these distorting circumstances, numbers still show obvious decline which is even bigger de facto:

In 90's NT scored 86,6 points per tournament. In 00's 82,6. In 10's 78,8.

[Mindozas]

100+ on average in 2003? That must be a mistake in your calculations as there's no way we were scoring that much I don't even remember if there was a game when we scored 100. In 2000 all averages were destined to be heavily decreased with 1st game already, when we lost in awful game against Italy without scoring even 50pts (49-50 or so). But already in 2nd game when expectations were quite low, we played great vs France. In that group stage and later it was no offensive show like later in 2004, but well balanced basketball.
Overall, that's just numbers, a lot depends on other factors, let's say in 2001 team was no less talented than in 2000, but it was preparations and injuries, in 2005/2006/2009 no PG and poor coaching, then rivals means a lot too, at times better team might face stronger opposition, weaker might be more lucky or let's say style is also important, in 1992 we faced bunch of very good offensive sides in group stage and Brazil in 1/4 with Oscar, it was pure offensive fest in most games, but quality one, while in 1996 our offensive game was surely worse with Sabas getting older, Marcela playing with one leg, but couple of blowouts probably lifted it to these 90pts, even tho I couldn't ever guess that it was that high too, would guess some 80-85pts I remember we lost vs Argentina in very bad offensive game and their scorers Milanesio, Espil punishing us, but it kept both teams somewhere in 60s, then that nail biting game in semis vs Yugos, I remember the score well till now - 58-66 and few tears late at night at my late grandma's house also that Kurtis heroics in opening thriller vs Croatia, 2OTs, but score being just over 80s. That was way different picture that in 1992, but averages are close

[Straight forward]

I really got a source where it was 100,1 I don't know what was it then, maybe some particular game of that tournament. You right, in champ's tournament Lithuania averaged 90.7ppg. Still by far best scoring team in the tournament, Spain with 84.3ppg was second.

[Mindozas]

I really got a source where it was 100,1 I don't know what was it then, maybe some particular game of that tournament. You right, in champ's tournament Lithuania averaged 90.7ppg. Still by far best scoring team in the tournament, Spain with 84.3ppg was second.

It might be qualifiers then. But not really fair to add it under 2003, as it started in late 2001 or early 2002, but it's really possible that we scored that much as usually there were few poor teams, also I remember particularly one game from it in Turkey, where young Macas blossomed for the first time with NT shirt against such good rival, it also was very highscoring OT drama

[Shawshank]

Obviuosly those numbers dont show entire true,to get seriuos truth we should eliminate all games played againts african and assian teams in which we won like 100-60 on average especially in 90s. IT boost teams scoring numbers,but not showing true scoring against normal level competion.

take example from 96 Olympics we beat CHina 116-55 that not seriuos game ,but it counts in averages

In 5 main fair level games scoring was 66-66 (Before 2 OT), 61-65, 58-66, 80-74 and one game was really good (but also blowout when nobody played seriuosly with benchers in last 10minutes) 99-66 against Greece.

That our 96 team is averaging ale 90pts is not true picture what was happening there. Competive game results was more in 60 .


Marciulionis leg was in really bad shape he was going to other side with the ball on big arvydas speed and play slow academical basketball and relying alot on sabonis (that speed was perfect for him) and that was good enough in middle 90s. No more Marciulionis was going on one men fast break,mostly just relying on his IQ and experience by that point.

in 1992-1996 those points like 90% was scored literally by 4 players atleast in real games .


In Kazlauskas 9 tournaments, 8 of them scoring was under 80. 8 of 9 tournaments NT was playing atleast 1/4 playoofs game. All 3 medals won also with under 80 scoring.Coaching style matters too he chooses to play with in those averages.

How much those 2017-2019 offensive numbers means if NT cant even make their way to 1/4 playoofs game?

ps. I checked in fiba archive site even with china and angola and usa games 1996 LTU Olympics team averaged 83pts not 90 per game. 1997 average is also wrong it was 77pts per game not 89 i didnt check after that.

[Straight forward]

ps. I checked in fiba archive site even with china and angola and usa games 1996 LTU Olympics team averaged 83pts not 90 per game. 1997 average is also wrong it was 77pts per game not 89 i didnt check after that.

You right about 1996, it's 83, but you wrong about 1997, it's 89.6. I made some mistakes, sometimes FIBA shows that comparison with some other team at the bottom of the page and I caught Brazil's scoring number in 1996.

Anyway, averages also matters. We can count only those real deal games, and I bet in 90's and 00's the scoring averages would still be higher, I won't go after it now, specially that I obviously lacking better focus with all the crazy hours on the NET during quarantine Those high scoring games against crappier teams happened in each decade, like in 2014 WC Lithuania going against Korea 79:49. I don't think the point that we had more talented NTs in 90's and 00's compared to 10's is even movable and that reflects in scoring numbers.

And f.e. Lithuania trashed Senegal badly in the first game 101:47 in WC 2019. Should we get any credit? Off course we should! Senegal wasn't that bad, we simply played a great game, we broke them badly. Later Senegal had 81:68 against elite Australia, 89:78 against Germany. You can see that players like Ndour (Rytas), Ndoye (ACB), Faye (Eurocup), D'Almeida (ex EL player) are not trash, we simply played really dominant game.

We didn't advance to PO in 2019 not because we sucked, but because we had a crazy group with Australia and France. We fought it nicely and I count it as decent tournament because of that.

The fact is that the only time we snatched a title, we had the best offensive team in the tournament. Only history will tell if we can snatch it again with more of a defensive minded team, it didn't happen yet and I doubt it will. Defence means a lot, but it's a guard orientated game and I think ELITE OFFENSIVE GUARDS >>> ELITE DEFENSIVE GUARDS in how basketball is constructed. With that said, again, those who will have 2 ways elite backcourt will absolutely dominate, but it happens very rarely.

[Hepcat]

We didn't advance to PO in 2019 not because we sucked, but because we had a crazy group with Australia and France. We fought it nicely and I count it as decent tournament because of that.

I agree. That's why I was distressed to seee Coach Adomaitis take the "failure" upon himself and resign. History will tell whether his decision has hurt Team Lietuva's chances in the coming Olympics.