Originally posted by LuDux
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1992 team had our 2 best players in their peak that was destroying everything in their way like nba players 1992 did.
In early 90s best players were Sabonis,Petrovic,Marciulionis,Divac,Oscar,Kukoc,D. Srempf and couple more and those 8-10 players were heads and shoulder better than other international player i mean it wasnt even close.They were beating those amateur level players double teams easily.
Today story is diffrent those others is way more higher level and difrence between top10 international players and others is not that huge like it was in 90s.Todays two good solid euroleague players when they double team they gonna stop good 15+pts nba player.
Back in the day 92 Marciulionis was going from basket to basket 1 vs 2-3 in his running road and minimum was getting fouled or Sabonis grabbing all rebounds and playing voleyball inside with those Nosov type centers
Back in early 90s when our NT team have 2 of top 7 players in fiba (not counting usa players) sure you have seriuos chances winning even if your others 10 were panavezio kalnapilis playersIs same as today one team would have Ginobili+P.Gasol in their primes.
Is Domantas top 7 player today in fiba? making nba all star today is easier than just to make nba in early 90s was.Every year like 2-3 europeans plays in that all star game.In 92 there were like only 7-8 players from europe in entire nba.
Marciulionis and Sabonis cards in early 90s was way more seriuos cards than Domantas or Valanciunas is today.Closest thing to Marcela and Sabas domination in 1992,1995 was one example Kleiza in 2010 performance.
But saying all that when we rank best NT teams of all time,i dont buy that 6 players team cant beat more balanced lesser star loaded 9 men teams.With way more better defences,smarter double teams and overall teams play faster and our 1992 6 men rotation with 2m20 center would struggle way more than they did in early 90s.
We had bigger star power in big 3,but jugos have longer bench and it matters when 2 championship calibre team meets.
If healthy leg Valanciunas or any other 2m10+ center having trouble guarding pikenrools today,so how Arvydas 2m20 even bigger body with one hurting leg would guard that?
Those who dominated their eras are one of best fibas players of all time sure and deservingly so.
But game has changed dramatically compared to early 90s . Best 90s cars doesnt look or run as fast today you knowLast edited by Shawshank; 06-08-2020, 11:45 AM.
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Shaw, you underestimate 90's. There was much more quality than you say. Imagine Croatia with Petrovic, Kukoc, Radja. Lithuania with Sabas, Rooney, Karnisovas. Serbia with Divac, Djordjevic, Bodiroga, Australia with Gaze, Heal, USA with Dream TEAM, Russia was loaded, ect.
You undervalue such players as Chomicius, Krapikas, Einikis, Visockas. If you brag about Ulanovas, Maciulis, don't disrespect these guys, they were not worse.
No, two Euroleague players can't stop NBA studs nowLook at Dragic. He came and dropped 22.6ppg in super modern era of ball and lead his team to the title, having few players around. Look at Mills, he dropped 22.6ppg in WC 19, 21,2ppg in 2012, 2016 Olympics. Guard or wing studs will come and hurt you. Do whatever you won't. Donic would come and would provide his 22/8/8. Prime Marciulionis today would slice the defence as butter, dude, stop to even doubt this
And in contemporary NBA he would be even more dominant. He would disgrace current NBA defence. Your perspective is wrong because you see JV and Domas (thus far) being not so impressive in FIBA. That's because bigs suffered the most from BB shift. It's way easier to collapse on inside defence rather than in perimeter. Besides, Arvydas Sabonis was so much bigger stud when it came to 1 on 1 action than Sabonis or JV ever will be. He had funny size and feel for the game and could use that any moment. Also he was really good three point shooter and he actually used that. While Domas and JV are more reliable on PG, on p'n'r situations. Sabonis was so dominant in FIBA because prime Sabonis was better than both Domas and Valanciunas and there was less double teaming inside back than. As for A. Sabonis D, he would suffer if he wouldn't try to step out, but Sabonis had tremendous IQ and he would adjust better to that than JV does. Look at M. Gasol, he's ait a rabbit as well, but his IQ makes his positioning so sound.
Today top FIBA players (I count Euros mainly) are Mills, Doncic, Rubio, Shroeder (or Dragic still?), Fournier, Bogdanovic, B. Bogdanovic, Porzingis, Giannis, Jokic, Sabonis, Gobert. All marked players dominates in FIBA. All of them, except bigs. Bigs in FIBA are in trouble now, unless they are super skilled as Dirk or Pau (Porzingis is close to those guys, so he dominates FIBA). That's because the game became even more tough and rigid and D help comes. But all of high quality guards and wings dominate in FIBA, do whatever you want. So, please, Shaw, stop this too primitive narrative that in 90's it was a walk in the park and now even NBA studs can't bring dominance in FIBA. All top guard/wings do bring that constantly. And prime Sarunas Marciulionis would be abusing all leagues of today, literally. Sabonis would be a bit lesser, but still better than JV and Domas, because he was unique freak with unique size and skills and elite touch from three.LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:
Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
Buzelis, Lelevicius
Murauskas, Sirvydis
Tubelis, Krivas
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I watched 1992 3 games last months im sure that 1992 teams bench would have no chance competing against our team bench,no chanceOur 10-12TH players in 2019 were seibutis after having good season in acb,butkevicius rytas best player and giedraitis that shown he can play few months later.
In 1992 ltu bench have half retired 38 jovaisa who was more of coach asisstant than player,brazdeikis looked like men from some skin head jail and so on.Our 6th men commentators said after he changed somebody: gintaras plays in second german league...and he was the only ok bench player that summer
comon that was 4 olympic champions of 1988 ,ncaa student karnisovas and krapikas and bunch of nobodies.Only Einikis made normal basketball career from those 7 bench players of 1992.
level of those so called "others" of our team or other teams was funny compared to star players.
in middle decade 90s level was getting better,but in early 90s it was superstars and the rest.In 1992 there were so called professionals and amateurs for a reason even in our commentors words.Thats when nba players were allowed to play made huge impact going further for international basketball.
dont get me wrong there were stars and very good players in 90s,but level of those 7-12th rotation players was really very amateurish compared to todays standarts.Basketball went ahead and athletes are simply better today is normal.Super stars can play in any decade,but that even they would have more problems today im sure,but thats in any sport.
we can say its was more interesting to watch 90s or 00s basketball and i even agree with that,because star players was so much better and were like heros of their countries and people like such stories,but no way in hell level back then was better overall.
More interesting to watch and higher level is two diffrent things.
im not saying that those 90s superstars coudlnt play today,im saying those bench players of 90s was joke compared to todays benches.Those superstars would be superstars in any decade i do not question their level.Im questioning that opposition they played againts.
Today competions level wise is alot better.Every olympic team have nba players,half of the teams have 3players or more.
American basketball lessons in last 30 years made huge impact of level in international basketball.In 90s pro euro players was happy if they saw on whs one nba game per months,now every country have their own kid in the league.
I agree and always did that Sabonis,Marciulionis is best players we had ever had .But i dont agree about that 1992 was best our nt team ever with such pathetic amateurish bench. Thats disrespect to our 00s teams with 10 high quality euroleague players,including some euro stars.Last edited by Shawshank; 06-08-2020, 04:22 PM.
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Originally posted by Shawshank View PostI agree and always did that Sabonis,Marciulionis is best players we had ever had .But i dont agree about that 1992 was best our nt team ever with such pathetic amateurish bench. Thats disrespect to our 00s teams with 10 high quality euroleague players,including some euro stars.LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:
Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
Buzelis, Lelevicius
Murauskas, Sirvydis
Tubelis, Krivas
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Look at nba USA teams 1992-1994-1996 they were destroying that 90s euro basketball level to pieces in their sleep .Like Marciulionio in same was going from basket to basket and those slow ,low iq centers have no clue how to stop such athlete from NBA.
In 00s teams begin to fight againts USA team even beat in couple games,not because USA NBA players forgot how to play, competion become way more professional ,higher quality than in 90s era .
All nations we're learning from NBA not just by watching games on TV,but being part of that after 92.
Im telling you 90s euro basketball was alot weaker quality wise when you look at those rosters not just top 3 players than in 00s,that dream team 1992 open doors and Europeans started learning fast had more and more their own pros in NBA with true NBA bodies, not those soft ones from 80s or 90s most euro players had.
Spain dominated because they had 5-6 NBA calibre players in roster almost every champ , Argentina in 00s had at least 4 ,if we don't count Prigioni + fantastic chemistry and by far the smartest international team I have ever seen.
If your logic would be correct then Germany should have won more medals,they had best European player ever for like 15 years in their NT.
Those 90s euro bench players ( not stars) would be smoked out of the building by today's even our NT athletes.Especially from early 90s...
Is not an accident that international basketball had golden years born boys around 1975-1980 those teenagers was watching mj,magic,Barkley and so on playing in Spain for the first time and how they made those best 90s euro players look very amateurish... ask gasol or scolas,ginoblis,nowitzkis all have mentioned that in one or other interview that made huge impression on all of those youngsters born in middle/late 70s
All athletic boys of that time wanted to do basketball after seeing that 92 dream team magicLast edited by Shawshank; 06-09-2020, 03:06 PM.
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Damn, watching condensed game of small final USA-Lithuania 2004 and 4min third quarter Lithuania leading 65:58. That team could score, bruh. In my opinion, be it bias or not, prime Macijaukas was the second most impressive shooter I ever seen after Curry. That quick and cheeky release in your face was absolutely unique. He hit amazing shots in 2004 OG. It's crazy when you think about it, but Macas averaged 27,3ppg in the knock out stage of 2004 OG. That's superstars' numbers (32 in 4finals, 26 in semis and 24 in small final).
I think if we kept Macas for longer extent we would had snatched 2007 EB title and ended up at 2008 Olympic games final (even without him we were so close beating Spain in semis 91-86, I can't put out of my head that Kleiza's technical foul in the crunch time, will have to re-watch that game soon):
LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:
Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
Buzelis, Lelevicius
Murauskas, Sirvydis
Tubelis, Krivas
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Originally posted by Straight forward View PostDamn, watching condensed game of small final USA-Lithuania 2004 and 4min third quarter Lithuania leading 65:58. That team could score, bruh. In my opinion, be it bias or not, prime Macijaukas was the second most impressive shooter I ever seen after Curry. That quick and cheeky release in your face was absolutely unique. He hit amazing shots in 2004 OG. It's crazy when you think about it, but Macas averaged 27,3ppg in the knock out stage of 2004 OG. That's superstars' numbers (32 in 4finals, 26 in semis and 24 in small final).
I think if we kept Macas for longer extent we would had snatched 2007 EB title and ended up at 2008 Olympic games final (even without him we were so close beating Spain in semis 91-86, I can't put out of my head that Kleiza's technical foul in the crunch time, will have to re-watch that game soon):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwOfU3J1zMA
He had something almost Ex-Yu in his mentality
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Originally posted by Straight forward View PostDamn, watching condensed game of small final USA-Lithuania 2004 and 4min third quarter Lithuania leading 65:58. That team could score, bruh. In my opinion, be it bias or not, prime Macijaukas was the second most impressive shooter I ever seen after Curry. That quick and cheeky release in your face was absolutely unique. He hit amazing shots in 2004 OG. It's crazy when you think about it, but Macas averaged 27,3ppg in the knock out stage of 2004 OG. That's superstars' numbers (32 in 4finals, 26 in semis and 24 in small final).
I think if we kept Macas for longer extent we would had snatched 2007 EB title and ended up at 2008 Olympic games final (even without him we were so close beating Spain in semis 91-86, I can't put out of my head that Kleiza's technical foul in the crunch time, will have to re-watch that game soon):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwOfU3J1zMA. But as Sharas said he blames Sireika.
That team with smarter built defence should have made Olympic finals no doubt,not sure who would won,but LTU 2004 our most tallented team ever would have made final game way more interesting against that very special Argentina team in their peak too.
Macas was at his best 2002-2005.After nba when he comeback in 2006 he never was the same player health wise.Something wasnt right in his body language already in 2006 world champ.
2008 P.Gasol took over in 4querter in semis.Javtokas,Petravicius both fauled out guarding him .I watched that game in quarantine time.Last edited by Shawshank; 06-16-2020, 08:46 AM.
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Originally posted by CoachZ View PostMy favorite Lith player of all time
He had something almost Ex-Yu in his mentality
Originally posted by Shawshank View Postthats why i said you before who was the 2 best purely offensive players in ltu history. Funny enough lithuania broke olympic record with 21 made triples and still lost in that bronze game. But as Sharas said he blames Sireika.
That team with smarter built defence should have made Olympic finals no doubt,not sure who would won,but LTU 2004 our most tallented team ever would have made final game way more interesting against that very special Argentina team in their peak too.
Macas was at his best 2002-2005.After nba when he comeback in 2006 he never was the same player health wise.Something wasnt right in his body language already in 2006 world champ.
2008 P.Gasol took over in 4querter in semis.Javtokas,Petravicius both fauled out guarding him .I watched that game in quarantine time.
Regarding Macas in 2006, he had different role, he had way more focus on him, that backcourt was a disaster, we had no PG, Macas even had to have PG duties at times, every defense knew where the ball is going, he still carried the team as much as he could. Sireika didn't help there either. Btw, after first injury, he came back even better in Oly (2007-08), more matured, more physical, versatile. He was going to basket with such ease, the same like he shot those long range shots. I'd say that was the best Macas I've ever seen, for those 10 games or so before he got injured again. One of the biggest losses in LT basketball
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Kalnietis revealed interesting insight recently. 2004 NT players narrated him that before the game against Italy, everyone got to know that there's Argentina in the final. USA maybe was shaky, but it's still USA and they gotten better with each game. Now, Liths knew that the path to the title is pretty much open, it's on a line. Players said that this apriori thinking about the final cause the mental mistake and the focus for the game against Italy wasn't as sharp as it could be. I also think that the huge sweep of Greeks and emotionally heavy games againts PR and USA cause a lot to Liths. You wanted or not, you getting washed out emotionally with such dramas. Saras gave so much in the group stage, he wasn't at his best in the knock out stage, he peaked in the group stage. Siska also wasn't at his best in the knock out stage. Macijauskas was incredible, but I think this team still needed Saras at his absolute best to snatch the title.LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:
Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
Buzelis, Lelevicius
Murauskas, Sirvydis
Tubelis, Krivas
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I think there weren't a player who wasn't asked about that semi in 2004 and did USA loss before it had any impactMost said - no, we knew it, but were fully focused. But where the truth lies none really knows. Maybe somewhere in between. I think what team lost is momentum, but not before the game as it looked very focused, but when we took quite comfortable lead, team was rolling, it was all so easy like in ost games before, it started to look like its all done, Italy couldn't do nothing, but then we simply stopped for no reason, we had smth like 0-20 run, which was simply unacceptable for a Olympic semi and the scary times started, Italy was flying, maybe players felt it too, sure later Stombergas carried as out, we believed again and in very next possesion he was fouled-out, that was last nail into coffin, we lost our confidence again, there was no plan B and we fcked up
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That 2004 semifinal lost in most fans are the most painfull one,we had better team and played better basketball no doubt than italians. With stronger coach we would have made final surely,but...maybe im in minority in Lithuania i believe we would still lost that olympic final .
No doubt looking now our NT would have won 2000 Olympic final,but not in 2004 . Both semifinal games we could have won in those years.
Even if i believe LTU 2004 was our strongest tallent wise team ever,but still there was the other very special team that year.
After what Argentina went in 2002 finals,then beating very good home team Greece in 1/4,being the only team beating nbas Usa in Olympics playoofs even to this day and after that lose in finals?
Sport doesn work like that,all emotional momentum was on their side by that point.Argentinas game was going up,Lithuanias was going down.
when in 2002 summer special group came together at same time : Ginobili(25),Nocioni(23),Scola(22),Oberto(27),Sanc hess(25),W.Hermann(23)+ couple veterans in Montecchia,Sconochini,Wolkowyski (later years was joined by Delfino and Prigioni) and made so called Golden Generation.
I have never seen smarter playing international team than that Argentinas group.I have seen some elite NT beat them in playoofs,but never seen anybody break that brotherhood that special group have builted since teenager years.Watching them in playoofs all those years i learned/realised how important is mental toughness in playoofs basketball. Only Usa overhelming tallent can win medal without that.
If somebody want to see 2004 Olympic basketball tournament from champions eyes:
How a once-in-a-generation Argentina team, led by Manu Ginobili, brought down the “Dream Team” and won gold at the 2004 Olympic Games.
really well made basketball documentary.Last edited by Shawshank; 06-17-2020, 01:01 AM.
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I won't talk about majority of people, but from my surroundings, from internet talks we had back then in bball sites or all through the years exchanging opinions, there weren't talks like "we would've won the gold for sure", at least not much of it, more like "it was lost the best chance to win Olympic gold and we probably won't have it anytime soon".
Till these semis Lithuania was the best team in the games. Spain was also very good, we and them were surely the best in group stage. Spanish had 5-0 run, 1st place in very tough group and then in 1/4 faced struggling USA. USA usually couldn't buy a bucket from downtown, but that given day were scoring at very high percentage, I don't remember who exactly, Iverson or Marbury had simply killer game and Spain couldn't deal with it, usual plan about leaving for USA more space around perimeter didn't work. Spain were unlucky or USA got lucky with finally shooting that good in such game and for not being eliminated, hard to say, but later Argentina got lucky here, as USA got back to their usual standards in semi. Maybe "lucky" it's not the right word here exactly, but you just needed to be smarter, close the inside game as much as you can and hope USA won't be hot with 3s - that's the plan to win. It didn't work for Spain, it worked for Argentina, it didn't work for us in bronze medal game. Going into that imaginary final game, I don't agree with you, Shaw, that our game was declining or Argentina's was going up. I will agree that Argentina came to final being on major emotional boost after that win vs USA, but that's it. They had an amazing team, balanced one, that's true, but till that game they weren't that convincing at all, so-so ride in group, they've lost vs the same Italy there, they barely beat Greeks side in 1/4, which was still not the one they've became few years later. And as I wrote - they faced the same struggling USA team, which again fell into the same "can't score a triple" trap. I'm not taking anything away from Argies, it still needed hell of effort to beat USA, we knew that from group stage, but if we had won that Italy game the same way we started it, it looked like nobody could stopped us back then, the same way like before 2003 final there was that feeling after tough game vs France in semi. But we'll never know now, I can only repeat that we lost the biggest chance ever
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beat Greece in playoofs in their home is huge deal,going against 15thousand crazy fans,going against referees in playoofs (that obviuosly will be influnced by those fans) we cant compare that to any group game.Greece are very good home team in those must win games and they had like 12pts lead in middle of 3rd querter againts Argentina but at some point they werent able to hold Argentina with that even very slow defensive minded Giannis tactic.Greeks won eurobasket one year later,it was same players golden Greece generation playing at home with 15thousand support.To beat Greece in their arena in playoofs it was only done by Jugoslavia 1995,1998 (and even jugs needed OT to do that) and Argentina 2004 and all 3 games were nerve bracking battles and all those 3 teams become champions of those tournaments.Even almighty Ussr couldnt beat Greece in their arena in playoofs,those smart greeks knows very well how to use their home court and always did.IN 4 tournaments in Greece they never had best roster or won the group ,but always won the toughest game to win 1/4 game except that one time.
Argentinian players explained that win in 1/4 in that hell atmosphere in must win game being down by 12 and even themself doubting they can be eliminated was the game that changed their tournament.Usa had no chance in 1/2 how game went,Italy in final same way.Greece had seriuos chances in winning againts them.
How playoofs were matchup on one side Spain,Usa,Argentina,Greece and other bracket Lithuania,China,Italy,Puerturico that wasnt even close strenght wise.Team which survives first bracket that will go all the way.Just to make finals argentina went through hardest road you can imagine they played everybody Serbia,Spain,Italy,home team Greece in hardest game to play 1/4 and than USA.When you survive all that and then lose final? i dont believe in that .
Usa was playing better and better in that tournament.That only shows their last 3 games.They beat both group winners Spain and Lithuania but couldnt handlle Argentina being behind all game around 10tps.
After Argentina survive home team Greece in 1/4 they beat Usa and Italy convincingly.There were no luck they were controling both games,that was Argentina at their best.In that state of mind Argentina was after 1/4 and 1/2 i just dont see them loosing final just dont.That documentary shows that and players explain everything. what happend after 1/4 game.
Lithuania had too many good emotions in first 6 games,its better to start tournament slower and add little by little with every game.Lithuania peaked around 3-4th tournament game,Argentina peaked in semifinal and final they were on such emotional boost its was very very hard to stop them at that point.
Argentina just by unlucky injury accident didnt become back to back champions of 2002-2004 in two mayor tournaments .There is nothing lucky here just very special group of players that came together at same time . If Ginobili would be healthy in final no way in hell Jugoslavia would stole that final.Argentina almost won final without Manu.In 2004 Manu was at his total peak.He almost become 2005 nba finals MVP againts Pistons half a year later.If those Pistons couldnt stop him,sorry sireika defensice plans surely wouldntEven in 2006 semis if Nocioni last shot goes in they beat Spain...in the only that tournament game were 2006 Spain had seriuos problems winning.
In playoofs that Argentina 2002-2008 was one of the toughest teams to beat period,they were very tough mentally.
Manu at his peak 2004 >Jasikevicius 2004 at his peak , Argentina2004>Lithuania 2004 thats how i see from historic stand point.Last edited by Shawshank; 06-18-2020, 01:16 PM.
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