All time NT

[Straight forward]

Since it's the brake from BB, a good chance to study Lith NT players generations' genesis, tracking down players who made NT at least twice since 1992. No Silinskas, Andriuskevicius, Prekevicius kind of players. Under this inevitable filter, A. Giedraitis (Vaisvila, Pazdrazdis, Dimavicius and well Jovaisa in a way) suffers the most, he was a stud, but somehow played only in one tournament. Here we go:

1959 Chomicius
1960 Kurtinaitis
1961 Krapikas
1962 ---
1963 ---
1964 Sabonis, Marciulionis
1965 Visockas
1966 ---
1967 ---
1968 Lukminas
1969 Einikis
1970 ---
1971 Karnisovas, Maskoliunas, Pacesas
1972 ---
1973 Stombergas, E. Zukauskas
1974 Timinskas, Praskevicius, Adomaitis
1975 M. Zukaukas, T.Masiulis
1976 Jasikevicius, Jurkunas, Sestokas
1977 Kaukenas, Salenga, Slanina
1978 Siskauskas, Songaila, Ginevicius
1979 Petravicius, Brothers, Laukauskis
1980 Javtokas, Macijauskas, Gustas
1981 ---
1982 Jasaitis, Delininkaitis
1983 ---
1984 Jankunas, Kavaliauskas
1985 Kleiza, Maciulis, Seibutis
1986 Kalnietis, Pocius, Milaknis
1987 ---
1988 Gecevicius
1989 Kuzminskas, Juskevicius
1990 Motiejunas
1991 ---
1992 Valanciunas, Ulanovas
1993 Gudaitis
1994 Lekavicius, Grigonis
1996 D.Sabonis


Obviously 90’s was the time of more fragmental talent quantity wise, but huge individuals as Sabas, Rooney, Karsis, Kurtis, Chomka. Also this happened due to the fact we ain’t got 1990, 1991, 1993 and 1994 tournaments. If those took place, there would be less gaps likely in this list, but the talent was rather fragmental.

1973- 1980 was extremely wealthy, by far the best stretch of new talent born. I don’t know how to explain this sociologically, I think it was first fruits of what Sabonis and Marciulionis did popularising modern BB in the Lithuania to some extent. No wonder this generation was golden in 00’s and contended anywhere they played.

1987-1991 was very bleak and disappointing stretch. While people hoped that Gecevicius, Janavicius, Vasiliauskas, Juskevicius, Kuzminskas, Motiejunas will become strong NT material, it became complete nightmare with only Kuzminskas becoming trully impacful long term player.

Since 1992 sitution started to get better. All JV, Ulanovas, Lekavicius, Grigonis, Sabonis (basically a starting line-up) became long term impactful players and we seem to have wealthy material going further (future possible NT pieces):

1997 Echodas
1998 Kulboka, Sedekerskis, Masiulis, Jogela
1999 Brazdeikis, Velicka
2000 Sirvydis, Jokubaitis, D.Giedraitis
2001 Blazevic
2002 Tubelis, Marciulionis, Rubstavicius
2003 ---
2004 Murauskas

[Shawshank]

when we had in 1987-1991 born players only one real NT player (Kuzminskas) its not hard to see why NT is in hole since 2016

2016-2020 it was years for 1987-1991 player to lead the way.Its should have been their best years,but it was empty...1984-1986 was getting too old and Valanciunas generation was still not ready mentally to win close playoofs type games.


Sometimes its that simple couple bad years tallent wise.Good thing is was only two champs 2017, 2019 and it will be 4 champs (including 2 olympics) now in way better peaking players pool for us.

now 1992-1996 generation players came time to lead our NT in 2020-2024 is their peak years .

in 2019 champ already 1992-1994 were main players and was very close beating 2 semifinal teams and lost by one shot. That group needed on highest level to lose couple such games before learn how to win them.Its normal learning process.

Its just pity a bit that Maskvytis most likely wont get chance to coach his own generation players in their peak years.

Kazlauskas have said in some interview usually it doesnt work when you try to combine couple diffrent generations together.

In other words the more peaking players team have 26-31 old the better teams chances are.Its just best years for basketball when already players are smart,mentally strong and still runs fast and jumps high.Thats winning formula.

Ofcourse im talking about mortals,not some 5% of freaks of nature.

[Straight forward]

Sometimes its that simple couple bad years tallent wise.Good thing is was only two champs 2017, 2019 and it will be 4 champs (including 2 olympics) now in way better peaking players pool for us.

now 1992-1996 generation players came time to lead our NT in 2020-2024 is their peak years .

in 2019 champ already 1992-1994 were main players and was very close beating 2 semifinal teams and lost by one shot. That group needed on highest level to lose couple such games before learn how to win them.Its normal learning process.

Agreed, basically. I think we're on the obvious leap quality wise with 1992-1996 pieces gathering into one, but I, differently than you, think we still lack that additional quality, additional talent injection to realistically contend and aim for medals. Let's not forget we went -17 against both Aussies and French. But it's getting much more fun, that's absolute true.

IMO, now it will depend a lot on how much more Sabonis and Grigonis can add in upcoming tournaments (2 highest upside players from my mentioned starting five) and which youngsters can realistically add their impact in 2021- 2024. My money are on Jokubaitis and Kulboka in the first place. Those went through most serious PRO experience as a youngsters and playing in the positions of a high need.

Kazlauskas have said in some interview usually it doesnt work when you try to combine couple diffrent generations together.

Well, the problem with this theory is that we probably have only one success tournament of one generation blossom. That's 2010. But even there, between Javtokas and Gecevicius there was 8 years gap. In all other medal seasons there have been big contrasts in age. We can speak about the cores however. Now obviously it's 1992-1996 core as the key core. But Kalnietis and Kuzminskas will still be relevant, as well as couple of youngsters injection.

[Shawshank]

When Kazlauskas meant generation i understand he meant it cant be 5 players from one generation 4 from other like for example was in 2011-2012 or 2017-2019.

All teams will have couple veterans from other generations thats ok, but doing only helpers role and helping in weak spots,but not being main players anymore.

Its impossible to have all 12 from same generation. But if from 8 main rotation players around 6 is same generation its what usually brings good results for not the most tallented teams.It will be good chemistry between players thats knows each other since teenager years.

Thats what i meant they werent ready yet they could lose one querter by 15 and the other one win by 15 against semifinal team.Tallent is there only more brain and stability and that group is ready go to playoofs battles.

Your named starting five Lukas,Grigonis,Ulanovas,Sabonis,Valanciunas

then from bench i see 3 other same generation players like Giedraitis,Butkevicius,Gudaitis

and after that add couple veterans from 89 like Kuzminskas and Juskevicius/Bendzius that will help with weak positions.

Add couple youngsters like Jokubaitis or Brazdeikis or what ever who will mostly ready to give some help.

This team would be one generation 1992-1996 leaded team and adding missing pieces in this generation from remaining players.


Problem was in 2017-2019 there was nobody in 1987-1991 and disbalance between 1985 and 1992 generations.4 players from one 5 form others thats usually doesnt work.

Valanciunas,Gudaitis,Sabonis,Ulanovas,Butkevicius, Grigonis,Giedraitis,Lekavicius its 8 players from same generation with only 4 years diffrence at most,but mostly only 1-2 years diffrence...Thats perfect for winning formula.

It came time for that group to lead our NT in their peak years.

[Straight forward]

then from bench i see 3 other same generation players like Giedraitis,Butkevicius,Gudaitis

That's where I disagree. It was correct call by Adomaitis to take Butkevicius as 11th, 12th player, he is exactly that kind of material, he filled exactly this role in WC (2.8pts + D) and will never be anything much more than that. You can't put player as Butkevicius among key bench players. He's ain't that calibre of a player. Also R. Giedraitis WC campaign didn't show a single sing he can become anything substantial for NT. No-one will build around him and will let him mess around however he wants in NT, that's not ALBA, we don't play such basketball. Maybe, he can snatch some decent role and to become solid contributor, maybe, with him there's more hope and some upside compared to Butkevicius, but I doubt it. He looked lost coming from the bench and I doubt he would suddenly reveal into a real contributor. Even Gudaitis at this point, won't be much of a contributor, even if he's most serious player of the bunch. Sabonis and JV both will eat all minutes at 5 and Gudaitis can only expect 10min in which will give you 4-6pts. JV's generation is he himself and Ulanovas. That's it. Others are micro roles options, unless Maskoliunas would be willing to make some uptempo run gun environment for R. Giedraitis which I don't see happening.

and after that add couple veterans from 89 like Kuzminskas and Juskevicius/Bendzius that will help with weak positions.

I don't understand how mentioning softies Juskevicius and Bendzius make any sense when we speak about real time BB. One never even realistically played in the NT, and now suddenly at 30 will become contributor at Olympic stage Other, failed to bring anything at Olympics in 2016, now he suddenly gonna ball in 2021 OG being 32. That doesn't make any sense to me.

The only 2 veterans that I see in 2021 for realistic and worth mentioning roles are Kuzminskas and Kalnietis.

The core of 2021 OG would such, IMO:

Sabonis, Valanciunas, Kuzminskas, Ulanovas, Grigonis, Lekavicius, Kalnietis, Gudaitis and maybe R. Giedraitis + best youngsters or some more or less irrelevant veterans.

To brag about such players as Butkevicius as NT core players is not serious.

[Straight forward]

Tell me a player who in his thirties became contributor in the NT while previously not snatching any meaningful role? I know only one such case. That's Kaukenas in 2007 EB. But it's because of conflict with Sireika, he was ready in 2004 already. Now you're saying that R. Giedraitis, Butkevicius and Bendzius will suddenly become contributors in their 29-30 while not snatching any roles previously in least talented times of NT (Bendzius belongs to that infamous 87-91 generation). That's not serious winning plan, brah.

[Shawshank]

first of all team do not need 12 players to score and contribute with only points.Somebody must defend too. i dont call 10-12th players in roster as contributers.They will play 2 games in entire tournament ,they are helpers.

Butkevicius is top 2 defender in entire Lithuania right now when we are talking about defending mobile top level players.Ulanovas and Butkevicius will have to defend all the best all around players those SG-SF in 2021-2024 and Arnas did very good job in 2019 champ in his role.I was skeptical before champ,but he proved me wrong with his play.

I really wanted him to play even more watching games live over 2 veterans Seibutis/Maciulis in my opinion Arnas was giving team more in his limited minutes in 2019 Champ.

He is 27 now and his game is obviuosly peaking last 2 years.Every team needs such energy comming from the bench with really good defence.



Giedraitis scored in euroleague big time this season,i dont like him how he plays overall,but that he will be in nT in next few years its obviuos.Rokas is best shooter in that peaking group he will get his role.

Gudaitis will be nr 3 big without any questions in next 3-4 years in Lithuania.Unless injuries gonna eat him.

Giedraitis,Gudaitis plays in euroleague when the last time our nt didnt took euroleague players who isnt playing in domestic zalgiris? you still questioning their level?

main 8 players i mentione that will do all the heavy lifting others 4 usually dont even play in playoofs.So i dont understand your reactions about those players.That wasnt my point.My plan is not playing bendzius for example in playoofs at all if possible .But im hearing what maskoliunas is saying and understand where he is comming from.He want to use such players like Bendzius/Juskevicius like zalgiris using Milaknis.Because nt needs shooting badly.

It could be any other smart veterans that would accept helpers role,but right now Kuzminskas,Juskevicius,Bendzius is in a lead for those 2 veterans spots in nearest future listening to Maskoliunas.Atleast i got such idea listening to head coach.They are around 3 years younger than Kalnietis/Maciulis.

Dont get me wrong i would take Kalnietis to 2021 olympics,but i dont believe it will work out for him even if he will be in.35 is alot for pg.

my point was 1992-1994 players and 96 Domantas they must take the lead and already started in 2019. Other pieces is replaceble and can rotate it doesnt matter that much for final result.

but if Lithuania wins medal again is because of those 8 players in next 3-4 years.

[Shawshank]

Like 1984-1986 generations 7 players +valanciunas,kuzminskas carried our nt in 2010-2016

The same i see in 7 players from 1992-1994 generation +Domantas 96 will carry our NT in 2020-2025.

And yes i see Butkevicius important piece in nearest 3-4 years comming from the bench like he was in 92 generations golden tournaments.He is very good in such role energy+defence from the bench.Seibutis had same role in 2010 i really want such type players that competes very hard on my team.

Thats one of winning elements of a big puzzle.I watched basketball for so long that i know every winning team needs such players that in his 15min does all the dirty job,brings all around energy,guards best players and lets get a rest for starters.


After Seibutis and Maciulis is more less done with NT i see most of those 2 former players minutes goes to Butkevicius and Giedraitis that gonna give rest to Grigonis,Ulanovas,Kuzminskas trio.

[Straight forward]

I don't treat R. Giedraitis as a flat out Euroleague player. Like, say, Timinskas, Maciulis, Kaukenas or even Salenga. His stats now matches these guys stats, but he ain't the player that you can put into any EL team and you would know he snatch some meaningful role. He's very specific player, rhythm player, thriving in uptempo environment. Alba provided that. Next season, if he will move to different environment, will show if he can adjust to different style. In NT we don't run, and he seemed to struggle with mere spot up shooter's role, even in frendlies, his % wasn't good. At the moment he's more of a stat padder at one of the worst EL teams, providing suspect D. I'm far from sure he will snatch a meaningful role in 2021, but I wouldn't be surprised if he would.

Butkevicius is a good defender, he always hustles and that's good, but that's all. Prime Seibutis could go for his buckets, being a great slasher and finishing under the rim specialist. Sure, Butkevicius can snatch 10min role, but that's more of a 9-12th player role, rather that top horses from the bench. There' a reasons why he snatches only 6ppg in Eurocup while being the key of the team. He's very limited offensive player which stops the ball, decrease creativity and spacing. Adomaitis threw him right on against Australia to guard Mills, but this way offense suffers. Help defence collapses more on p'n'r action while Butkevicius in the corner is of a little threat.

I have no doubt Kalnietis will still be able to bring very quality 10-15min in 2021 and we'll need that.

If it would be today, I would picture something like this in terms of rotation:

Lekavicius 20, Kalnietis 15, Jokubaitis 5
Grigonis 25, Lekavicius 5, R. Giedraitis 10
Ulanovas 20, Kuzminskas 12, Butkevicius/Brazdeikis 8
Sabonis 18, Kulboka 15, Kuzminskas 7
Valanciunas 22, Sabonis 9, Gudaitis 9

I don't see us cutting down Brazdeikis if we will invite him to the camp, so most likely Butkevicius will be even out, because I also believe Maskoliunas (or other coach) will won't Jokubaitis in, knowing Kalnietis declining.

[Straight forward]

And to be fair, Butkevicius not only will have to compete with Brazdeikis for the third string spot at SF, but with Sedekerskis as well. Even this season, we already can compare their stats and level overall. Butkevicius played for a bit stronger team, but the difference is really minimal. I'm not sure, who will be a better player in 2021 summer - Butkevicius or Sedekerskis. As I said Butkevicius and Giedraitis are 1 or 2 tournaments fillers. There's more talented players in their position coming up:

LKL Butkevicius 23:45 min. 8,0pts, 4,3rbs, 12,7eff
LKL Sedekerskis 24:08 min 8,3pts, 5,4pts, 14,2eff

[Shawshank]

you are telling same stories about Sedekerskis,Kulboka only missing one is D.Giedraitis...Men nobody sees them in NT team yet only you

So i wont even try to argue that.Thats your opinion ok, i dont see them in NT like most people in nearest future.My talks are about 2021-2024 what will happend after that nobody knows and useless to even try to predict.

I see Butkevicius like M.Zukauskas he will get 12-14min and in some special cases can be even in starting 5 for defensive reasons.

when player are top 15 scorer in entire euroleague i consider him euroleague player You cant have lucky season like that on highest level just because of system.Yeah sure he wont score like that in other teams,but obviuosly can play on that level. That was way more impressive than your beloved Kulbokas season with 8pts in acb in similiar running and shooting system.

NT coach is saying Bendzius will be in and explains why over and over again ,but you still comming and giving totally rookie Kulboka even 15min comon men

Sedekerskis,Kulboka when they gonna make it to final roster they will start like R.Giedraitis started in 2019 2 games and 15min per tournament,nobody will put shaky leg youngster in seriuos games in his first tournament.


If Butkevicius managed to make the team (with refreshing energetic play in friendlies 2019) with Ulanovas,Maciulis,Seibutis,Grigonis,Giedraitis,Kuz minskas all of them being there i cant imagine Arnas not making team when there will be no Maciulis and Seibutis anymore just cant.

And Arnas was far from worst player in that SG-SF group in WC 2019.

So you called ale Sedekerskis MVP Neptunas,Butkevicius basically had same numbers offensively only playing for stronger team .Defensively Sedekerkis is ok defender,Arnas is elite one. And whos mentality is stronger is not even a discusion. If Sedekerskis makes team over Butkevicius that would be huge suprise.

If Kulboka makes over Bendzius atleats i can understand that,but still not seeing that hapenning after Maskoliunas couple interviews,he will go with experience to atleast to 2021 Olympics.

But with all others players I agree there and see Jokubaitis and Brazdeikis being 11-12th players (If Mantas still in).Its really hard for young kids in their first tournament to deliver something when they havent experienced anything like that before.Especially for Brazdeikis never even played fiba basketball.

[LuDux]

I know what you're thinking. "Did we had this argument twenty six times or only twenty five?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track

[Straight forward]

Where we usually disagree is how fast things change. You usually take conservative position and think things will develop slowly, I contrary, think it can change very quickly. A player reaches certain level, and, boom, he's in the NT. When last season (2018/2019) I said Jokubaitis should already be on a radar of a NT you made a fun of it calling a ferry tale, but look now, he would probably be looking to his chance to play even in OG this summer already. You overlooked Lekavicius development a little bit also, and ect. That's OK, I respect you as a poster and your position, it's pretty wise yet I have a trust of my own observations. I don't need confirmation by Maskoliunas when I watch it with my own eyes and I watch it more than he does. Not to mention that later "the uncle" as Ulanovas said, basically approve my insights with serious interest in Kulboka. I watched him played in several games and I know that he's more athletic, more all around, better defender and overall better player than Bendzius, even of the latter provides an inch more scoring (which probably will cease in upcoming season with Kulboka's progression). I assume Maskoliunas simply didn't see him play this season, because if he would, he would probably agree with my words. Personally, I don't like that you and some other posters argue with me about certain players while rejecting the idea to actually observe them. To me Kulboka already has certain experience to enter higher level, be it NBA, EL or NT. He had fragmental, but real experience with Bamberg, and most importantly he didn't shy away taking clutch shots against EL calibre ACB teams in absolutely crowded Bilboa's arena. As for Butkevicius, sure he's more ready than Sedekerskis at the moment (and most likely will still be superior in 2021), but even now the distance between the two is slim and it will be even slimmer after a year. Butkevicius has much less offence and skills than M. Zukauskas, this comparison is false, you simply overrate Butkevicius at this point, to me he can only make as 9-12th player, but his last chance is 2021, IMO. After 2021 studs in Brazdeikis, Sedekerskis and even Kulboka (who I project mainly at 4) will surely push him out, IMO. It's really way out of hand to even mention 2024, that's where your conservatism hits you. In 2024 we may even see Marciulionis and Tubelis in the NT who both will be 21-22yo.

[Straight forward]

I know what you're thinking. "Did we had this argument twenty six times or only twenty five?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track

What do you suggest?

[madmax]

SF, the problem with your obsession with youngsters and their constant propping up over established players is that you put such enormous amount of expectations and pressure on their fragile shoulders that it's almsot impossible for them to live up to your lofty projections... You even have a nerve to take shots at our current NT coach and proclaim yourself a much better basketball analyst - that would be funny if it wouldn't be cringeworthy really Do you work in professional basketball by any chance? If so, I might take my words back, but your constant bragging and disrespect shown towards our established hoops professionals is really irritating at this point I'm afraid