Anadolu Efes 2017-18

[surfer]

Sports teams have clear aims: being successful, promoting that sport and making fans happy. Advertising a brand and creating financial profit by getting rid of taxes shouldn't be the ultimate goal of a team. This is what sponsorship is for. In the past I'll admit company teams did a good job of promoting basketball and volleyball, although that wasn't their purpose. Today, at least in basketball, there is no need for companies to pour millions to teams that almost no one cares about.

We shouldn't criticize company teams because "they were here first"? I disagree. By the way it is not like it was only Efes and no one else, but they were the leaders because we didn't have even remotely close financial power to compete. When the gap was closed, company teams one by one went down.

And "a bit of gratitude" part, well Efes lost remnants of my gratitude after stealing a championship with the cathine incident. Though I guess you'll deny that.

Nonsense. Take all NBA teams for example, none is a sports club. They are all franchises, yet they are the most successful in the world. Sports clubs are outdated and will turn into companies one by one, maybe not in the near future but sooner or later it will happen because sports is now a business and because you can't stop change (take Galatasaray for ex, it is now Galatasaray Sportif AŞ., AŞ. being "Joint-stock Company". It is a small step because the club is still not run like a true company). Things change.

[Tevfik1907]

Izmir would be great for Efes. But Karsiyaka is already there as well, I don't think they would give enough support them in the court. If they could merge with Goztepe though, it would be interesting.

[Levenspiel]

Sports teams have clear aims: being successful, promoting that sport and making fans happy. Advertising a brand and creating financial profit by getting rid of taxes shouldn't be the ultimate goal of a team. This is what sponsorship is for. In the past I'll admit company teams did a good job of promoting basketball and volleyball, although that wasn't their purpose. Today, at least in basketball, there is no need for companies to pour millions to teams that almost no one cares about.

To be honest, I don't know how the companies got to be the sports clubs in Turkey. It would be a great read if someone has published the history of this. But they were not just sponsors, they were/are serious clubs, with dedicated bball management, academies and infrastructure (and very good ones), and long term domestic and international goals. This cannot be reduced to advertisement and taking advantage of tax benefits. It's there, but it must be beyond that.

and taxes... i think FB/GS/BJK/etc should not really bring this up.

We shouldn't criticize company teams because "they were here first"? I disagree. By the way it is not like it was only Efes and no one else, but they were the leaders because we didn't have even remotely close financial power to compete. When the gap was closed, company teams one by one went down.

No issue in criticizing, even if they were not the first. As a non-involved sympathizer, I take offense on "disgrace" part.
Efes is the subject of discussion, but they're surely not the first. I have differing degrees of sympathy for Eczacibasi, Ulker, Turk Telekom, Banvit, Tofas, etc etc... for what've done for Turkish bball...

And "a bit of gratitude" part, well Efes lost remnants of my gratitude after stealing a championship with the cathine incident. Though I guess you'll deny that.

"We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the information requested but, hypothetically, if such data were to exist, the subject matter would be classified, and could not be disclosed."
the information as far as I could remember was not a pleasant one to hear from Efes side, but not sure if there was anything proven. I can only hope they did not cheat.

[iskoch]

as i know, in pro sports, sponsors cut %50 of the expenses from yearly profit.

for example profit 100m tl, expenses for the sports 20m tl.
government takes taxes from 90m tl.
so, when a company spends 20m tl for the sports,
it means 1.5-2m tl tax cut...

[Drexler]

It's pretty interesting how things change over the course of the years. in late 80's and 90's, corporate teams were believed to have unfair advantages vs the club teams lacking the resources. Seems like things have changed drastically. According to the feedback from the former coaches and the staff, the biggest problem in Efes is the Chairman and owner Tuncay Ozilhan micromanaging everything and interfering with management and transfer decisions. The board should bring professionals and let them do their jobs. Since the club has enough financial resources, it wouldn't be too hard to find non-mercenary minded players ready to put some balls on the court regardless of the result.I really believe that during the playoff semi finals, some players have decided to take an early vacation. I'm pretty much sure that the attendance&fun enthusiasm will follow if the management style changes...

As for the merger case, Efes Pilsen is Efes Pilsen, The club has a long tradition and cannot be compared with Ulker. Ulker has just popped up from nowhere during a summer and became a colossal failure in Europe despite the local success. Therefore, Efes is still an important basketball brand for Turkey and Europe and shouldn't be allowed to be consumed by a club team.

[Jazz]

Thinking more of football here but the big sports teams already are corporations.

[vivo]

do you think companies that invest money for the sports cut that amount from taxes?

They do. Sponsorship payments decrease tax basis, which in turn cuts taxes to be paid.

[Tevfik1907]

As for the merger case, Efes Pilsen is Efes Pilsen, The club has a long tradition and cannot be compared with Ulker. Ulker has just popped up from nowhere during a summer and became a colossal failure in Europe despite the local success.

C'mon now... What difference ? Corporate teams are still corporate teams. Efes was successful because Fener, GS and BJK didn't care about basketball much in the early years of the league. Only difference is that Efes is older than Ulker as a corporate team. And because of that Efes won a europe cup in the past which is equal to BJK's Eurochallenge cup in these days, but when you look at it, it's not a big success for Turkey anymore. We've a Eurocup champion, then much better ; Euroleague finalist and Euroleague champion now.

Ulker could win a Eurochallenge cup easily when you consider their investments in those days, they were successfully being at the Euroleage Top 16 every year. After Fenerbahce and other investments there was no need for corporate teams such as Efes in Turkey, because we've already successful teams on Europe, people cheered for Efes in the past because there were no Fener or BJK or GS at the time, well they were but they didn't care much about basketball, and now, they care.

People ignored Tuncay Ozilhan's childish behaviours in the past because we had no competitive european basketball team on the league, but now things are changed. Efes literally become a toy club for Tuncay Ozilhan's fantasies, nothing more.

[Levenspiel]

C'mon now... What difference ? Corporate teams are still corporate teams. Efes was successful because Fener, GS and BJK didn't care about basketball much in the early years of the league. Only difference is that Efes is older than Ulker as a corporate team. And because of that Efes won a europe cup in the past which is equal to BJK's Eurochallenge cup in these days, but when you look at it, it's not a big success for Turkey anymore. We've a Eurocup champion, then much better ; Euroleague finalist and Euroleague champion now.

Ulker could win a Eurochallenge cup easily when you consider their investments in those days, they were successfully being at the Euroleage Top 16 every year. After Fenerbahce and other investments there was no need for corporate teams such as Efes in Turkey, because we've already successful teams on Europe, people cheered for Efes in the past because there were no Fener or BJK or GS at the time, well they were but they didn't care much about basketball, and now, they care.

People ignored Tuncay Ozilhan's childish behaviours in the past because we had no competitive european basketball team on the league, but now things are changed. Efes literally become a toy club for Tuncay Ozilhan's fantasies, nothing more.

yeah sure. it's best to ignore your messages actually. better for one's own sanity.

[Cuneyt]

A corporation exists for profit. Plain and simple. The reason why they support sports is either they see profit in it, or the owner has a tendency towards that sport.
Most of the investments can be covered through "marketing expenses etc" so they provide the corporation some sort of financial advantage.
Once the perceived "benefit" vanishes...so does the corporation. We have seen this through Tofas, Eczacibasi, Pasabahce, Beslen et cetera in Turkey.

A club exists for the sport. Plain and simple. They are not money or profit driven, but rather success driven.
I do not see Fenerbahce Olympiakos, CSKA, or Barcelona vanishing in 50 years.

Cant say that for Efes and the likes though.

[iskoch]

They do. Sponsorship payments decrease tax basis, which in turn cuts taxes to be paid.

yeah, spending $15-20m to get 4-5m tax cut is a good idea really...

http://www.gib.gov.tr/fileadmin/user_upload/Tebligler/5520/10.html

as i know, in pro sports, sponsors cut %50 of the expenses from yearly profit.

for example profit 100m tl, expenses for the sports 20m tl.
government takes taxes from 90m tl.
so, when a company spends 20m tl for the sports,
it means 1.5-2m tl tax cut...

[Jazz]

A corporation exists for profit. Plain and simple. The reason why they support sports is either they see profit in it, or the owner has a tendency towards that sport.
Most of the investments can be covered through "marketing expenses etc" so they provide the corporation some sort of financial advantage.
Once the perceived "benefit" vanishes...so does the corporation. We have seen this through Tofas, Eczacibasi, Pasabahce, Beslen et cetera in Turkey.

A club exists for the sport. Plain and simple. They are not money or profit driven, but rather success driven.
I do not see Fenerbahce Olympiakos, CSKA, or Barcelona vanishing in 50 years.

Cant say that for Efes and the likes though.

I mostly agree and can't argue that any EL clubs are profit driven as such. But it's hard to look at the top 30 or so richest football clubs in the world and say they aren't driven by profit. They can't have success without profit, but also can't have profit without success.
Look at the family that own Manchester United- are they football fans or businessmen?

[Cuneyt]

I mostly agree and can't argue that any EL clubs are profit driven as such. But it's hard to look at the top 30 or so richest football clubs in the world and say they aren't driven by profit. They can't have success without profit, but also can't have profit without success.
Look at the family that own Manchester United- are they football fans or businessmen?

Good point. Let me clarify my thoughts.

I agree and support clubs to transform to corporations like ManU and NBA type organizations.
The "product" of that organization, its commodity...is sports, and I am all for that.

When you think about corporations that "support" sports though, I feel a bit different.
They use sports as a tool to sell their products may it be beer, cars, cosmetics, or consumer goods.

I think the first type is the future of these clubs, where the second type should transform to sponsors and support.

[vivo]

I mostly agree and can't argue that any EL clubs are profit driven as such. But it's hard to look at the top 30 or so richest football clubs in the world and say they aren't driven by profit. They can't have success without profit, but also can't have profit without success.
Look at the family that own Manchester United- are they football fans or businessmen?

Manchester United have owners. Of course they look for their profit, while also trying to be successful, because success will being them fame and more money.

Fenerbahçe and many more clubs in Turkey and Europe are essentially governed by public (elections and stuff). Which means ideally the management looks for success, and uses profit for more success.

That being said; we have a problem sending our elected president Yıldırım But I am still against ownership structure.

By the way @Levenspiel, yeah disgrace comment was more my negative feelings towards Efes talking rather than solid arguments. Multiple quoting is a pain in mobile so I'm answering from here.

[Tevfik1907]

yeah sure. it's best to ignore your messages actually. better for one's own sanity.

You didn't need to tell me that I ignore your messages too. But it's hard to find Efes fans these days so don't lose your motivation.