Grade your team (EL2022/23)

[MikeMaccabiFan]

I take Lorenzo Brown any day over Calathes. And he gets paid quite a bit less, unfortunately (even though new contract is better).

[Jazz]

Like I said, it seems you don't have a clue. Calathes was not good enough to make playoffs as the leader of the team. Pao was 1/12 in playoffs, when this non shooting Pg lead the team. He was nowhere near to a leader in Barca. And he didn't join Fener by his free will. He was sacked by Saras while still having valid contract. I would trust Saras' opinion a little bit more than yours. Itoudis is understanding Calathes' value for sure and will act accordingly in next season. Calathes has a contract for 1 more year, it should be fun.

It's an inconsistent way to judge a player, blaming them for every defeat and giving them no credit in victory. You are describing Calathes as a "total liability" and "unplayable in the playoffs" when there's obvious evidence to the contrary.

If he wasn't considered one of the leaders in Barca then why was he made the scapegoat when they didn't win the Euroleague title?

Itoudis was well aware of Calathes' limitations before he signed him but they are having a very solid season with him as their PG. Have you checked the result of the Fener - Efes game played last night?

[Killer Bob]

It's an inconsistent way to judge a player, blaming them for every defeat and giving them no credit in victory. You are describing Calathes as a "total liability" and "unplayable in the playoffs" when there's obvious evidence to the contrary.

If he wasn't considered one of the leaders in Barca then why was he made the scapegoat when they didn't win the Euroleague title?

Itoudis was well aware of Calathes' limitations before he signed him but they are having a very solid season with him as their PG. Have you checked the result of the Fener - Efes game played last night?

You want more detailed answer? No problem.

He as leader wasn't been able to bring more than 1 win in 4 playoffs for Pao. 1/12 total score. 2 times with home court advantage and having pretty good team.

1st playoffs against Baskonia, he averaged 5/3.7/6.7; 0% for 3( 0/9). This's as bad as it can get from the leader.

2nd playoffs against Fener with home court advantage 6/3/4; 33% for 2 and 11% for 3(1:9). Even bigger disaster than year 1. Especially if we know how true leader in Fener looked. So first 2 playoffs 1/18 for 3. That makes him probably the worst leader of his team in playoffs history in 2 consecutive years.

3rd playoffs, his far the best, home court advantage, very good numbers 16.8/3.7/7.2. But that was enough only for 1 win against Real, who remained with only 18 years old kid on Pg.

4th and last with Pao, 11.7/2.7/6; but only 22% for 2 and 31% for 3, again 0 wins for Pao.

Then you have solid, but nothing special year 1 in Barca and again bad year 2 with 16% shooting for 3.

He was again bad in last playoffs with Fener.

To recup,

He had 2 disastrous playoffs, 3 bad playoffs, 1 average and 1 good. I would say that's pretty unplayable, especially now, when his athleticism has gone.

[Jazz]

You want more detailed answer? No problem.

He as leader wasn't been able to bring more than 1 win in 4 playoffs for Pao. 1/12 total score. 2 times with home court advantage and having pretty good team.

1st playoffs against Baskonia, he averaged 5/3.7/6.7; 0% for 3( 0/9). This's as bad as it can get from the leader.

2nd playoffs against Fener with home court advantage 6/3/4; 33% for 2 and 11% for 3(1:9). Even bigger disaster than year 1. Especially if we know how true leader in Fener looked. So first 2 playoffs 1/18 for 3. That makes him probably the worst leader of his team in playoffs history in 2 consecutive years.

3rd playoffs, his far the best, home court advantage, very good numbers 16.8/3.7/7.2. But that was enough only for 1 win against Real, who remained with only 18 years old kid on Pg.

4th and last with Pao, 11.7/2.7/6; but only 22% for 2 and 31% for 3, again 0 wins for Pao.

Then you have solid, but nothing special year 1 in Barca and again bad year 2 with 16% shooting for 3.

He was again bad in last playoffs with Fener.

To recup,

He had 2 disastrous playoffs, 3 bad playoffs, 1 average and 1 good. I would say that's pretty unplayable, especially now, when his athleticism has gone.

Bob, I can never tell if you have a file on your computer with Calathes' playoff stats for his seasons with PAO or if by this stage you have committed them to memory. Either way, I've acknowledged before that they aren't good, even taking into account he was up against very good opposition in each of those seasons.
IIRC Diamantidis was still there that first season so it wasn't quite truly Calathes' team at that point. Also, PAO have completely collapsed since Calathes left. They are now just dreaming of playoff appearances.

Those two seasons at Barca are important, because particularly that first year doesn't suggest he's unplayable in the playoffs.

I did chuckle at the "only 18 years old kid on Pg" line though. Whatever happened to that young lad?

[Killer Bob]

Bob, I can never tell if you have a file on your computer with Calathes' playoff stats for his seasons with PAO or if by this stage you have committed them to memory. Either way, I've acknowledged before that they aren't good, even taking into account he was up against very good opposition in each of those seasons.
IIRC Diamantidis was still there that first season so it wasn't quite truly Calathes' team at that point. Also, PAO have completely collapsed since Calathes left. They are now just dreaming of playoff appearances.

Those two seasons at Barca are important, because particularly that first year doesn't suggest he's unplayable in the playoffs.

I did chuckle at the "only 18 years old kid on Pg" line though. Whatever happened to that young lad?

Yes, and that's my point. When it matters the most, playoffs/F4, he didn't deliver.

The best example is 2017 playoffs against Fener. Calathes disastrous, Bogdanovic playing like MJ. What do you think would have happened, if these 2 had opposite performances? Pao would have won easily that series. And that's why you pay your stars big bucks, to win playoffs games not some unimportant RS games. Calathes is totally different case, his numbers are free falling in playoffs.

In stacked team, anyone can play. But you're not paying 2+ mio to a player, just to handle the ball a little bit. His perfect position now is backup Pg, 15 min per game, 0 minutes in the clutch, 350K salary.

[Jazz]

Yes, and that's my point. When it matters the most, playoffs/F4, he didn't deliver.

The best example is 2017 playoffs against Fener. Calathes disastrous, Bogdanovic playing like MJ. What do you think would have happened, if these 2 had opposite performances? Pao would have won easily that series. And that's why you pay your stars big bucks, to win playoffs games not some unimportant RS games. Calathes is totally different case, his numbers are free falling in playoffs.

In stacked team, anyone can play. But you're not paying 2+ mio to a player, just to handle the ball a little bit. His perfect position now is backup Pg, 15 min per game, 0 minutes in the clutch, 350K salary.

That's quite a precise amount.

We'll see what happens in a few weeks. Fener (and a few other teams) already being linked with Mannion so they are assessing their guard situation.
What do you think of Iffe Lundberg? He was treated as a big signing last summer (another player Fener were linked with) and now he's not even on Virtus' playoff roster.

[Killer Bob]

There's a big lack of Pgs in Europe. That's the only reason why some older guards have still big contracts. Sloukas is 33 and is one of the youngest in this oldie group. Quality of Pgs is just bad at the moment and it looks it will be even worse in few years time. Road to the future is pretty clear, European talents going in Nba and 3rd tier Americans in Europe. Good luck with marketing that product.

Not a Pg and not extremely good shooter. Eurocup material.

[Straight forward]

There's a big lack of Pgs in Europe. That's the only reason why some older guards have still big contracts. Sloukas is 33 and is one of the youngest in this oldie group. Quality of Pgs is just bad at the moment and it looks it will be even worse in few years time. Road to the future is pretty clear, European talents going in Nba and 3rd tier Americans in Europe. Good luck with marketing that product.

Not a Pg and not extremely good shooter. Eurocup material.

Actually a good new wave of European PGs should emerge: Nunez, Jokubaitis, Jakucionis (Barca), Marciulionis (NCAA), Kerr Kriisa (NCAA), Ntilikina, Maledon (NBA drop outs likely), Topic, Ziga Samar, Yam Madar, Alocen and so on and so forth. In 2-3 year it may not look that EL lacks Euro PGs.
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[Killer Bob]

Actually a good new wave of European PGs should emerge: Nunez, Jokubaitis, Jakucionis (Barca), Marciulionis (NCAA), Kerr Kriisa (NCAA), Ntilikina, Maledon (NBA drop outs likely), Topic, Ziga Samar, Yam Madar, Alocen and so on and so forth. In 2-3 year it may not look that EL lacks Euro PGs.
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And who of them is a top prospect? Who will have as good career as Teo, Llull, Chacho, Spanoulis...Even Sloukas and Calathes look unreachable for them. They're not better than those 3rd string Americans.

I didn't follow Maledon much, but Ntilikina is not even Euroleague material, not a Pg and can't shoot. He survived in Nba only because he was some kind of defensive specialist.

[Straight forward]

And who of them is a top prospect? Who will have as good career as Teo, Llull, Chacho, Spanoulis...Even Sloukas and Calathes look unreachable for them. They're not better than those 3rd string Americans.

I didn't follow Maledon much, but Ntilikina is not even Euroleague material, not a Pg and can't shoot. He survived in Nba only because he was some kind of defensive specialist.

Jokubaitis, Jakucionis, Nunez surely have that upside.

[Killer Bob]

Jokubaitis, Jakucionis, Nunez surely have that upside.

I know that you're a big Jakubaitis believer, but he will need to show a lot more and very soon. For example, Teo was MVP of much stronger Euroleague with 23 years. Those 5 points and 2 assists are nowhere near enough for someone, who will be 23 very soon.

[Toruko]

I know that you're a big Jakubaitis believer, but he will need to show a lot more and very soon. For example, Teo was MVP of much stronger Euroleague with 23 years. Those 5 points and 2 assists are nowhere near enough for someone, who will be 23 very soon.

He believes in every Lithuanian prospect.

[Straight forward]

I know that you're a big Jakubaitis believer, but he will need to show a lot more and very soon. For example, Teo was MVP of much stronger Euroleague with 23 years. Those 5 points and 2 assists are nowhere near enough for someone, who will be 23 very soon.

FOA, not every elite PG becomes EL MVP at the age of 23 To take one extreme example is out of the context a little bit. 23yo Jasikevicius was playing for random Lublijana Olimpia kinda EL team at that age. Later became, mainly at the age of 26 most dominant offensive PG in EL. Second of all, Teo as 22yo (like Jokubaitis this season), had 3.3ppg and 2eff for Oly, playing as much as Jokubaitis played this season for Barca.

All I'm saying, some of the names I mentioned will be EL elite guards. Not necessary better or worse that Teo or Spanoulis, but elite.

[Killer Bob]

FOA, not every elite PG becomes EL MVP at the age of 23 To take one extreme example is out of the context a little bit. 23yo Jasikevicius was playing for random Lublijana Olimpia kinda EL team at that age. Later became, mainly at the age of 26 most dominant offensive PG in EL. Second of all, Teo as 22yo (like Jokubaitis this season), had 3.3ppg and 2eff for Oly, playing as much as Jokubaitis played this season for Barca.

All I'm saying, some of the names I mentioned will be EL elite guards. Not necessary better or worse that Teo or Spanoulis, but elite.

You might check skill set that Jakubaitis and Teo have.

Sure, Jakubaitis could surprise like Goran Dragic had, but for that he will need to go in Nba, which at least on paper should favour his game more, and have all the luck with right team and mentor Dragic had.

Problem for Europe is really simple, real talent goes in Nba as soon as possible and those, who're not that talented, don't get real chance even in Euroleague, because they're worse than veterans or Americans.

Look at what Jan Vide did. He new that he had 0 chances in Real, so he rather went in NCAA, to be nearer to those Nba scouts. There's really nothing be gained, except losing few years and getting few minutes in European clubs. A long shot that he succeeds, but still better than staying in Europe.

[Straight forward]

You might check skill set that Jakubaitis and Teo have.

Sure, Jakubaitis could surprise like Goran Dragic had, but for that he will need to go in Nba, which at least on paper should favour his game more, and have all the luck with right team and mentor Dragic had.

Problem for Europe is really simple, real talent goes in Nba as soon as possible and those, who're not that talented don't get real chance even in Euroleague, because they're worse than veterans or Americans.

Which Euro PGs went directly to NBA recently? Hayes, Maledon, Bolmaro (Argentinian though), Mannion (came back quickly). I think in terms of PG position NBA is pretty hesitant to absorb Euro talents. Usually it's draft and stash situation at worst (Jokubaitis). I think those quality EL PGs who may become elite material for this league one day are fringe NBA material at best. We do know Jasikevicius, Teo, Spanoulis choked in the NBA. So I think NBA is not a problem when it comes to PGs. Forwards, bigs yes...All elite goes directly to NBA...PGs....Nah...It's very hard to compete with more agile, athletic and more explosive Americans in colour in open NBA courts...Only outstanding PGs as Doncic, Dragic make it...