Have we just now entered the real Obradovic Era?

[turk-jugoslav]

It’s always hard to find accurate numbers about the budgets. First of all, many teams aren’t transparent since the tax issues with the state I guess. In Turkey and Russia, teams are more clear because tax rates are low and state doesn’t make any pressure even if tax evasion are commited. Putin and Erdoğan don’t care that much

See this link: http://www.interbasket.net/forums/ar...hp/t-3661.html
Seems like nothing has changed in IBN since 2007.

Apart from the budget comparison, I always think that teams can’t keep on investing huge amount of money on European basketball. Euroleague doesn’t make huge profits and contributes funny numbers to his members. You spend 30m€, in the end of the day, when you are glorified with the title, you take 1m€. Completely bulls.it.

This is not sustainable for any team unless you have direct or indirect support from the state or state connections. In long-term, financial situations will change. Anyone remembers Kinder? What are they doing now?

If you want Obra, keep on spending millions. Otherwise, he will be left.

[jonga]

you think Baskonia is not top 8 budget team? you pay lot to both Shengelia and Timma, plus I believe you probably have bigger money then Maccabi. Last ofseason, if I remember correctly you admited that you got bigger budget too. but all the time you speak about how poor you are. I almost ran out out tears for you.

Yes, Baskonia is not a top8 budget team and never was in all the euroleague history. In fact when Baskonia played the last final four (big surprise, odds paid the title @250 in the start of the season)... Baskonia had some economical problems and their budget was more less 10 million, now is higher but not top8.

CSKA
Khimki
Panathinaikos
Olympiakos
Fenerbahce
Efes
Real Madrid
Barcelona
Milano

Also Valencia have a similar budget to Baskonia, and I don't know Maccabi but it seems at least at the same economical level.

Before the season seemed Baskonia was going to improve their budget, with Larkin and Hanga. But finally have Marcelinho and Garino, so it seems the budget is similar to the last season. The only high salaries are Granger, Timma and Shengelia. Do you think Voigtmann, Poirier or Vildoza are high salaries? I would wish a budget as Fenerbahce, we would play final four every season, but this is the reality.

An example of a not top budget is the next: Tillie signed for Olympiakos, Baskonia could sign a player of any country. His replace was first Malmanis from the B team, then Kevin Jones two months, and finally no one, Voigtmann playing also PF. Other teams signing players in the middle of the season and Baskonia did a renew offer to Jones month a month, and he decided to play in France, so imagine the salarie.

IMO in the XXI century the most meritorious teams are:

1. Olympiakos: 2 titles when their budget was not in the top top, and also played a lot of final fours and finals.

2. Maccabi: 3 titles. 2 when their budget was top and once as a big surprise when their budget was not at the same level.

3. Panathinaikos: 4 titles having a top budget.

4. CSKA: 3 titles and the final four record, having 30-40 million budget. I think they should have won more titles.

5. Baskonia: a five games final vs the best Kinder, 5 final fours, 4 in a row. The fourth team with more quarterfinals after CSKA, Olympiakos and PAO. Being never a top8 budget.

6th and 7th Real Madrid and Barcelona. With their top budgets they should have won more titles.

As a Baskonia fan I think that this analisis is quite real and objcetive.

[gockun]

Money guarantee Obradovic.

With money all is easier.

How many no top8 budget teams played final four in the XXI century? Baskonia five times, Siena four times, Unicaja once, Partizan once (maybe the biggest surprise this century until now) and few more examples.

you think Baskonia is not top 8 budget team? you pay lot to both Shengelia and Timma, plus I believe you probably have bigger money then Maccabi. Last ofseason, if I remember correctly you admited that you got bigger budget too. but all the time you speak about how poor you are. I almost ran out out tears for you.

[qiangdade]

About the first post, IMO is a non sense. In the next 20 years I am pretty sure that there will be a lot of coaches and teams winning the euroleague.

In a Final Four format any of the four teams can win the title. Without a F4 format CSKA would win 8 of each 10 euroleague because they have always the best team, and that is because they have the higher budget.

I don't see Itoudis or Obradovic coaching in the same team after 5 years.

Most people agree that money plus a good coach like Obradovic or Itoudis (I add Saras to the mix) leads to success. This is also evident in the last two years. So as long there is money and success I don't see why these coaches should not stay with their teams. Obradovic and Itoudis stayed 13 years with Panathinaikos. So if you have Obradovic, Itoudis and Saras (probably with Barca) coaching the teams with the highest budget and reaching the final four every year (cause the current system almost eliminates surprises) I see little room for other coaches and teams to win the title, let alone "a lot".

[qiangdade]

Money guarantee Obradovic.

With money all is easier.

How many no top8 budget teams played final four in the XXI century? Baskonia five times, Siena four times, Unicaja once, Partizan once (maybe the biggest surprise this century until now) and few more examples.

We are talking about current circumstances. Which means 30-game regular season and 5-game playoffs. What happened before that is irrelevant to the topic. Under these circumstances we are bound to see Fener, CSKA and Saras' Barca every year in the Final Four

[jonga]

You said Fener's success depends on money, and I said we had the same money for 7 years and we get nothing. I know you meant Obra, but not always you can be successful with money alone, we've 7 years experience on that, and you can see how Efes fails almost in every year since 2002, or Barca since 2012, Milano in last 3 or 4 years etc.

Money doesn't guarantee anything. This thread is about Obra, so as long as we've the same budget and Obra, we're fine.

If we lose that budget, then no one would expect that kind of success anyway.

Money guarantee Obradovic.

With money all is easier.

How many no top8 budget teams played final four in the XXI century? Baskonia five times, Siena four times, Unicaja once, Partizan once (maybe the biggest surprise this century until now) and few more examples.

[Erkan12]

You didn’t get me. I’m not comparing pre-Obra Fener to post-Obra Fener. I’m talking about correlation between money and success, which is different point. Assume that no Obra no money, do you think that current success is still sustainable? I doubt. Don’t forget that Obra never works in a average-budget team. That means if your budget reduces to 10m€, no more Obra. In this case, very hard to reach 3 consecutive F4 without making huge local talent pool.

You said Fener's success depends on money, and I said we had the same money for 7 years and we get nothing. I know you meant Obra, but not always you can be successful with money alone, we've 7 years experience on that, and you can see how Efes fails almost in every year since 2002, or Barca since 2012, Milano in last 3 or 4 years etc.

Money doesn't guarantee anything. This thread is about Obra, so as long as we've the same budget and Obra, we're fine.

If we lose that budget, then no one would expect that kind of success anyway.

[jonga]

About the first post, IMO is a non sense. In the next 20 years I am pretty sure that there will be a lot of coaches and teams winning the euroleague.

In a Final Four format any of the four teams can win the title. Without a F4 format CSKA would win 8 of each 10 euroleague because they have always the best team, and that is because they have the higher budget.

I don't see Itoudis or Obradovic coaching in the same team after 5 years.

You didn’t get me. I’m not comparing pre-Obra Fener to post-Obra Fener. I’m talking about correlation between money and success, which is different point. Assume that no Obra no money, do you think that current success is still sustainable? I doubt. Don’t forget that Obra never works in a average-budget team. That means if your budget reduces to 10m€, no more Obra. In this case, very hard to reach 3 consecutive F4 without making huge local talent pool.

I totally agree.

[Axl Rose Is God]

The lack of effective Turkish players is a problem for Fener besides the fucked up economy too, you cabt keep on paying money for players like thompson all the time. ta**ip is ruining Turkey in every possible way, so it's impossible to make a long term estimation for Fener and all the other Turkish teams. Obra is a very good coach and a person, but he'll get old and worn. Would love ta see lotsa titles with Fener but it's a dream for now. We'll be very very lucky if we get it this year.

[slice me nice]

You will see the jokers soon will be the new kings

[atillafb]

Khimki-Maccabi-Olympiakos-PAO(if he stays)-Baskonia.How can you take these teams out of the picture so lightly.And if you tie Obradovic future with Fener then there is also another parameter to consider:Turkish economy future doesnt seem so bright.

I don't think the future state of the Turkish economy is going to play a factor in Fener's finances, mate. Especially if Ali Koç wins the election this year, which he most likely will.

And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't Turkey the fastest growing G-20 nation in terms of GDP the previous year? I know lira is plummeting, however. I'm just....not very well versed in economics. Really oughta' do more research.

[turk-jugoslav]

I think you've no idea what you're talking about, because if you were following Fener for years, you would know it has nothing to do with money. Besides, teams like Milano, Barca, Madrid, Khimki, Efes have similar level of budget with us, but we are more successful, CSKA has even a greater budget, so it's a fair game. If you're going to complain, then complain about CSKA not about us.

We had that money for years, since we merged with Ulker in 2006, we didn't even play in the F4 for once before Obra. We barely played in the playoffs (I think for once with Tanjevic).

Before Obra (2006-2013) ;

1 playoff

After Obra (2014-2017)

2 final four
1 championship


The original post has a point, Obra is clearly a great tactician and he can change many things.

You didn’t get me. I’m not comparing pre-Obra Fener to post-Obra Fener. I’m talking about correlation between money and success, which is different point. Assume that no Obra no money, do you think that current success is still sustainable? I doubt. Don’t forget that Obra never works in a average-budget team. That means if your budget reduces to 10m€, no more Obra. In this case, very hard to reach 3 consecutive F4 without making huge local talent pool.

[Erkan12]

It's dependent on money because this way they're able to fill the roster with high class foreign players, because of the lack of domestic talent.

It gives you a chance to compete. That's what Obra wanted. He could leave us for CSKA in the last year, if he was a kind of man, but he didn't. He just wants to compete for that he needs the necessary budget. He doesn't need the greatest budget (which is CSKA).

We had the same level of budget for 7 years, and we did nothing except for 1 playoff series in 2008 where we lose to Siena 2-0.

Obra changed that bad record.

[iraz]

You identify and disregard the main statement that the three coaches will stay with their teams for 15 years as something that has never happened before. Itoudis and Obradovic stayed with Pao for 13 years and they would have remained if the budget hadn't dropped and DPG wasn't crazy. So 15 has not happened before, but 13 is close enough. In my opinion it can happen.

That's what I mean - this happened only once, in Pao with Obra. It's an exception for Europe. But here I quite agree with you that Obra may continue to be the winningest coach (to a great extent because he is always favoured by the refs. As for the others - there is plenty of room for competition IMO. If smb else manages to stay for that long in a rich team, he may compete as well. Some time ago Itoudis used to speak about creating a legacy in CSKA. Well, that'd be great.

[paspalj]

It's dependent on money because this way they're able to fill the roster with high class foreign players, because of the lack of domestic talent.

Additionally it's no secret that there is a direct correlation between the money spent (budget) and the final position of the team.