FIBA vs ULEB

[Hot Spot]

It's really not a problem to win if the other side doesn't fight at all...
That's the thing that is most amSeriously... does anyone have an idea about the logic behind ECA's total lack of action here? I don't see any.

Bertomeu at first cares about the Eurolegaue. The Eurocup for ECA is a pool of clubs, which have enough potential to climb into the Euroleague sooner or later. He has there the top clubs from Spain, he has the top clubs from Russia, he has the top clubs from Germany, he has Hapoel Jerusalem and Rytas Vilnius. Does he really need the likes of AEK or Zielona Gora, whose answer to FIBA's threats is: "European competition is not so important for us. Our focus lies on the national league"? Does he he need Sassari, who after a veto of the italian federation say: "OK, then we play in the FIBA competition." Are these clubs - from the point of Bertomeu - worth fighting for? The Euroleague has appealed the EU and knows, that they have good chances to make a point there - once the burocrates in Brussels find the time to decide. So why fight in the meantime for clubs, who give not five cents of their own to fight for their right to play in the Eurocup?

[mchale]

But even if you wait for EU decision, why give up the interim warrant?
That's exactly why this legal tool was invented - to prevent an irreversible change in the situation until the verdict comes in. You can't just wait and do nothing, because in the meantime real life dictates things happening on the ground - and time is not in ECA's favor.
Judging by similar cases in the past, it could take the EU several months just to decide if an investigation should take place, and then several more months to conclude it. By the time that happens, the EC will not exist.
So, even if the EU decides in favor of ECA, what good would a victory be by then?

ECA doesn't have months. ECA has days, maybe a week or two. Teams are about to start their seasons and open their training camps, but they can't register players and have their contracts validated. Pretty soon, you will hear of players who are unable to register talking about cutting from their invalidated contracts and looking for livelihood elsewhere. You can;'t expect the teams to withstand that pressure all by themselves, so I think within days the flood of teams leaving the EC will intensify.
And still Jordi does nothing. It's beyond my comprehension.

To have comprehension you must have a certain level of IQ which you certainly don't have.
You gave already the answer to the question but you are that stupid to realize it.
Clubs are private corporations that have revenues and costs.if they have consistently losses they go out of business. FIBA and the local federations are not private corporations and can't go bankrupt or it will take much longer to go bankrupt.So they can be patient.

Let's take AEK for example,if she is forbidden from playing in Greek competitions or can't make signings this is financial suicide almost immediately.She will lose most of the revenues and will be non viable from the first months.If he wants to stay in Eurocup she must go to the greek or European courts
that will take months or years (when AEK will be bankrupt) to decide and if AEK wins the case which is uncertain the greek courts will ask the greek federation to pay damages which certainly doesn't have to pay.So what will AEK do then ?
It was extremely irrational for AEK to stay in Eurocup and so it changed position.
And that holds for other european clubs obviously.

Another point is that FIBA is representing all the basketball clubs of Europe. ECA is representing 16+20 professional clubs.So who do you expect to prevail the thousands amateur and professional clubs and the collective will of all basketball nations of Europe that FIBA expresses or 30 professional clubs even if they are more popular?

It is undemocratic ,immoral,and irrational to expect 30 clubs from few countries to impose their will on thousands of basketball clubs all over Europe.But this is who you are.

[mchale]

Bertomeu at first cares about the Eurolegaue. The Eurocup for ECA is a pool of clubs, which have enough potential to climb into the Euroleague sooner or later. He has there the top clubs from Spain, he has the top clubs from Russia, he has the top clubs from Germany, he has Hapoel Jerusalem and Rytas Vilnius. Does he really need the likes of AEK or Zielona Gora, whose answer to FIBA's threats is: "European competition is not so important for us. Our focus lies on the national league"? Does he he need Sassari, who after a veto of the italian federation say: "OK, then we play in the FIBA competition." Are these clubs - from the point of Bertomeu - worth fighting for? The Euroleague has appealed the EU and knows, that they have good chances to make a point there - once the burocrates in Brussels find the time to decide. So why fight in the meantime for clubs, who give not five cents of their own to fight for their right to play in the Eurocup?

There is a much simpler explanation you haven't thought: Bertomeu can't do anything about AEK or Zielona Gora leaving and all these complex plans and deliberations that Bertomeu is making ,is bullshit your mind invented.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Of course monopolizing a market like basketball is possible... but not by ECA. They can't sanction anybody, or stop them from playing anywhere. Only FIBA can do that and is actually doing that right now.

And that's exactly the point. The same goes for EC as well. teams (and even whole leagues) chose to go to ECA. The only one exerting force tactics of a monopoly is FIBA.
All the reasoning JPFtalks about could have been applied to the precedents I brought, if he was right... They were all private, invitational tournaments, in other sports - they simply won their competitors with better rewards. When the associations tried to sanction them using their monopoly powers, the courts threw the associations out the door.

Ah, c'mmon. Teams have been pressured by ECA for as long as Fiba's plans were known. Yeah, I don't know about 999.999 examples, but the ones I've been told have been enough and make complete sense, if you refuse to believe ECA openly stated "drop Fiba or you can forget about ever playing in any of our competitions ever again" to various clubs, than so be it. However the initial succes ECA had was partialy in fact due to that pressure at the times when Fiba's league seemed pretty miserable and such words had a pretty strong effect on some of the clubs. (1 I know of is surprisingly pretty loyal to ECA as of now)
Private invitational tournaments, how many of those have a 10 years contracts? You should see the difference there...

That's the picture you want to paint in your head, of poor ECA and old evil Fiba, however things are far from black and white here. If your goal is to win an internet debate - have fun with that as much as you can, however don't act surprised when events unfold in a way you didn't expect them to later on...

[Picek]

Bertomeu at first cares about the Eurolegaue. The Eurocup for ECA is a pool of clubs, which have enough potential to climb into the Euroleague sooner or later. He has there the top clubs from Spain, he has the top clubs from Russia, he has the top clubs from Germany, he has Hapoel Jerusalem and Rytas Vilnius. Does he really need the likes of AEK or Zielona Gora, whose answer to FIBA's threats is: "European competition is not so important for us. Our focus lies on the national league"? Does he he need Sassari, who after a veto of the italian federation say: "OK, then we play in the FIBA competition." Are these clubs - from the point of Bertomeu - worth fighting for? The Euroleague has appealed the EU and knows, that they have good chances to make a point there - once the burocrates in Brussels find the time to decide. So why fight in the meantime for clubs, who give not five cents of their own to fight for their right to play in the Eurocup?

in short, no he doesn't need those clubs. but he surely needs the markets they are coming from.
by losing Sassari or Zielona Gora they didn't just lose the teams, they lost the markets.
there hasn't been a replacement club from those markets, right?

[Joško Poljak Fan]

And Fiba is doing the best they can in order to make sure there won't be any replacements.
Worth of an individual market by tv rights is hard to evaluate and that doesn't neccesarily have to corelate with actual strenght of teams on court, however losing entire French TV market which is arguably becoming one of the most profitable (if not the most profitable) in europe is the biggest blow to ECA so far. Without France Fiba would probably lose their hopes already.

I imagine Spain must have better yields from euro competitions than ACB, I'd consider Russian market borderline neglectable from the TV rights stand point, could be wrong if things changed in the last decade though, Hapoel likely nets quite a lot even without Stoudamire included into the calculation and of course than there are the German teams, that are probably a 1st tier TV rights providers for ECA.
But than again, as Picek is saying, eurocup is now slowely becoming a matter of few countries.
6 teams from Spain, 5 from Russia, 3 Germany, 2 Lithuania, 5 from Adriatic league (Partizan included) and Hapoel with some replacements probably coming by in case those departures to Fiba are correct.

Fiba got whole France, Italy (minus Milano), Belgium, Poland, than some 2nd grade teams from Turkey, Greece and some 3rd tier Spanish and German teams that should still be marketable along with potentialy some refreshments from Finland (might not play on Budućnost's level, but be sure they'll net noticably more to FIba), Portugal etc. At worst case scenario, they made themselves a marketable competition.

The point is, while from competition stand of view having 5 Russian teams might represent a big edge, from the TV money generation, potentialy losing Hapoel would be probably even bigger blow to ECA.


Euroleague is a story on their own, however I would be surprised if eurocup is atm more marketable than Fiba's champions league.
Net price of a bball broadcast will inevitaly drop, just as we've seen in 2000, that's the price of this war.

[TheMirror]

To have comprehension you must have a certain level of IQ which you certainly don't have.
You gave already the answer to the question but you are that stupid to realize it.
Clubs are private corporations that have revenues and costs.if they have consistently losses they go out of business. FIBA and the local federations are not private corporations and can't go bankrupt or it will take much longer to go bankrupt.So they can be patient.

Let's take AEK for example,if she is forbidden from playing in Greek competitions or can't make signings this is financial suicide almost immediately.She will lose most of the revenues and will be non viable from the first months.If he wants to stay in Eurocup she must go to the greek or European courts
that will take months or years (when AEK will be bankrupt) to decide and if AEK wins the case which is uncertain the greek courts will ask the greek federation to pay damages which certainly doesn't have to pay.So what will AEK do then ?
It was extremely irrational for AEK to stay in Eurocup and so it changed position.
And that holds for other european clubs obviously.

Another point is that FIBA is representing all the basketball clubs of Europe. ECA is representing 16+20 professional clubs.So who do you expect to prevail the thousands amateur and professional clubs and the collective will of all basketball nations of Europe that FIBA expresses or 30 professional clubs even if they are more popular?

It is undemocratic ,immoral,and irrational to expect 30 clubs from few countries to impose their will on thousands of basketball clubs all over Europe.But this is who you are.

Oh, Mr Oracle is back!
Great to have you back with your famous eloquence, high language, not to mention your comic abilities and your deep understanding of what you're reading! assuming, of course, you can do that!
What part of "interim warrant" didn't you understand? is it the "interim" part, or the "warrant" part?
Here, that should help you:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/interim

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/warrant

Do you even know what it is, with your universe-encompassing knowledge?
an interim warrant doesn't take months to issue. It takes days. But you don't know that, do you?
That's exactly why this legal tool was invented, Mr. Galaxy-Size Brain. It is meant to freeze the situation until a final verdict comes in.
All Jordi had to do was go to that same Munich court he went to before, and issue such an anterim warrant. Then FIBA wouldn't have been able to do anything until the court issued a final verdict, because they would be breaking the law.
But your pea-sized brain is not enough to understand that. You're a waste of time and a waste of key types.

[TheMirror]

in short, no he doesn't need those clubs. but he surely needs the markets they are coming from.
by losing Sassari or Zielona Gora they didn't just lose the teams, they lost the markets.
there hasn't been a replacement club from those markets, right?

In addition to what you're saying, I think Jordi's bigger problem is that he's about to lose the big leagues that supported him. He may think EC cup teams are negligible (I think he's wrong if he thinks so), but the support of the big leagues - that is definitely not negligible.
He had ACB, VTB, and ABA league's unequivocal support. ACB has voted for Jordi by 14 teams to 0, ABA voted for Jordi by 11 teams to 1, according to the reports I read. They risked a lot, went to war with their federation, because of that support. They expected Jordi to fight for them, with them, in return.
And he is throwing them under the bus.
Next year, when FIBA goes for the Euroleague as well, Jordi and the EL teams will find out they are left alone and isolated. The big leagues that supported him, and were betrayed, will now turn against him as well.
That's the true meaning of the EC for Jordi's future, in my view - it is a pool of support, especially the big leagues. But he has given that up. Why? I can't understand, this approach doesn't make sense.

[mchale]

Oh, Mr Oracle is back!
Great to have you back with your famous eloquence, high language, not to mention your comic abilities and your deep understanding of what you're reading! assuming, of course, you can do that!
What part of "interim warrant" didn't you understand? is it the "interim" part, or the "warrant" part?
Here, that should help you:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/interim

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/warrant

Do you even know what it is, with your universe-encompassing knowledge?
an interim warrant doesn't take months to issue. It takes days. But you don't know that, do you?
That's exactly why this legal tool was invented, Mr. Galaxy-Size Brain. It is meant to freeze the situation until a final verdict comes in.
All Jordi had to do was go to that same Munich court he went to before, and issue such an anterim warrant. Then FIBA wouldn't have been able to do anything until the court issued a final verdict, because they would be breaking the law.
But your pea-sized brain is not enough to understand that. You're a waste of time and a waste of key types.

Don't confuse your masturbations with reality.
How do you know the munich court will issue a warrant in favor of ECA?
How do you know that?
And why the previous warrant didn't stop FIBA and the next one it will stop her?
And What happened with the previous warrant?Do you know?
Have you got any news?

In planet Earth sports are self-governed and courts and politicians usually abstain
from taking a clear position.You are masturbating if you think that the courts and the EU mandarins will save Corrupteou.
And I have to mention that now the local federations are imposing the sactions and not FIBA.You are a bit slow.

In the end You confuse your wishes with reality.Your problem..

[ByThor]

Don't confuse your masturbations with reality.
How do you know the munich court will issue a warrant in favor of ECA?
How do you know that?
And why the previous warrant didn't stop FIBA and the next one it will stop her?
And What happened with the previous warrant?Do you know?
Have you got any news?

In planet Earth sports are self-governed and courts and politicians usually abstain
from taking a clear position.You are masturbating if you think that the courts and the EU mandarins will save Corrupteou.
And I have to mention that now the local federations are imposing the sactions and not FIBA.You are a bit slow.

In the end You confuse your wishes with reality.Your problem..

Are you so delusional to believe the federations are imposing the sanctions on their own? fiba told the federations to do it so their hands are clean as far as the teams are concerned. fiba took a route to ensure no one could blame them.

[mchale]

Are you so delusional to believe the federations are imposing the sanctions on their own? fiba told the federations to do it so their hands are clean as far as the teams are concerned. fiba took a route to ensure no one could blame them.

You are so delusional that the last sentence repeats exactly what I said.
And you don't refute any of other points I make.

[TheMirror]

Don't confuse your masturbations with reality.
How do you know the munich court will issue a warrant in favor of ECA?
How do you know that?
And why the previous warrant didn't stop FIBA and the next one it will stop her?
And What happened with the previous warrant?Do you know?
Have you got any news?

In planet Earth sports are self-governed and courts and politicians usually abstain
from taking a clear position.You are masturbating if you think that the courts and the EU mandarins will save Corrupteou.
And I have to mention that now the local federations are imposing the sactions and not FIBA.You are a bit slow.

In the end You confuse your wishes with reality.Your problem..

How do I know? because when it comes to the merits of the case, the court has already issued one.
Did it stop FIBA? oh yes it did! they announced the cancellation of sanctions, and then had to go to the court and ask that the warrant be cancelled, due to "lack of urgency".
That's the reason the warrant was cancelled - not because the court said FIBA was right. only because it said "there are no sanctions right now, so there's no urgency".
But now the sanctions are back, so the urgency is back too, and the reason for cancellation is gone.
Now there are only the merits of the case - and you remember what happened when only the merits of the case mattered? go back to line 1 of this message.
I know it's complicated for you. Too many words to absorb. Try to keep up.

But you don't get a warrant from the court if you don't apply for one...

[ByThor]

You are so delusional that the last sentence repeats exactly what I said.
And you don't refute any of other points I make.

I believe I did refute your statement. Your statement says, "And I have to mention that now the local federations are imposing the sactions and not FIBA"

fiba is behind the sanctions being threatened by the federations. the federations don't care where their teams play as long as they get their money. so, to say it better, fiba threatened the federations with sanctions if they did not threaten the teams. so in fact the threats are from fiba with the federations being the scape goats so that the eca does not have one target and would have to deal with every country's courts instead of just dealing with fiba.

[mchale]

I believe I did refute your statement. Your statement says, "And I have to mention that now the local federations are imposing the sactions and not FIBA"

fiba is behind the sanctions being threatened by the federations. the federations don't care where their teams play as long as they get their money. so, to say it better, fiba threatened the federations with sanctions if they did not threaten the teams. so in fact the threats are from fiba with the federations being the scape goats so that the eca does not have one target and would have to deal with every country's courts instead of just dealing with fiba.

That' s exactly what i wrote and what i meant.That from now on is much tougher for ECA to go against FIBA because of this new strategy.
That exposes the talk about the munich warrant being the unbeatable weapon as the absolute delusion.

[TheMirror]

What Munich warrant? right now there isn't any warrant.
If ECA won't apply for one, of course there will not be a warrant. a court doesn't issue a warrant if nobody asks for one. That's what you fail to understand.

All they have to do is to apply for one. They got it once, it got cancelled on a technicality ("lack of urgency") but that technicality is now gone. If they apply again, they can get it again with very high probability - because the circumstances of the case haven't changed.
FIBA is not above the law; they are bound by court warrants in their jurisdiction just like everyone else. But ECA has to want to apply for a warrant in order to get one. For some reason it looks like they don't want to, they decided to let the EC die.

Partizan has now officially left as well.