2023 SEA Games (Cambodia)

[Silent Killer]

Discuss this thread in Philippine Seniors thread.. thank you..

[Giannis34GOD]

Whether there still is a chance for others or there were exceptional cases of older players who got approval is beside the point .

The point is what has already been clearly communicated by FIBA in their drafted guidelines and SeC general letters of decision for exceptions? That’s all.

And clearly and repeatedly been communicated by FiBA to all national federations they are.

1. number of years residency
2. Number of years domestic league play

1b and 2b, AGE as a minor (Before 21) for 1 (residency years ) and 2. (Domestic competition, normally school competition for minors)

How clear is that?

Now if A federation doesn't want to consider the explicit guidelines with the hope for an exceptional case contrary to stated guidelines, that's up to them. . The SBP listening from FIBA communicated decisions has decided otherwise to no longer pursue exceptions for players who established residency as an adult pro . Taking into consideration the advise of the sec general on cases submitted thst have been rejected.

FIBA's viiew Residency as a none adult student is quite different from adult residency for the purpose of professional income ..

If we look those players who getting exemption, the least amount of residency years was 5 (Brandon jawato started his pro career in Indonesia at 2015 and get his exemption case 5 years after that)… yes, I agree with this… the only thing that other countries, including the Philippines have hard time to secure exemptions is that how is their profession leagues strong especially in terms of economics… in Europe, there are already many players getting exemption cases there since they can convince the player to stay and reside there because their professional leagues are strong especially in economic part (I mean salaries getting there in Europeans leagues)… if your country has weak professional league especially in economic part… it’s hard to convince them to do residency… Look at Thailand and Vietnam… if their pro league can pay multi million bucks to pay their players, most of them will convince to stay and reside there… imagine the line up Thailand bring last seagames are all fiba eligibles, especially the Thai-foreign guys such as holder, bruenig and lamb? They can go toe to toe against mid tier Asian squads in fiba Asia… that is also why Indonesia can’t bring Kane and diagne to nba academy in Australia for now because they are still under residency… it will affect their residency years if they bring overseas to be better players… that is also why perbasi create Indonesia patriots for developmental program and have those two Senegalese players to have their careers in Indonesia while they doing residency before getting exemption in near future as local players…

[reamily]

Cstand doesnt want the 3 month training ..too bad..

[yobabs715ph]

In the absence of defining a specific number of years residency and domestic play in the exception guidelines, it is advised that the intent and purpose of the rule is taken into account .

The rule encourages youth developlent in the country, so in essence one needs to define what is the minimum age to classified as youth, commonly most countries consider anyone who has reached the age of 21 as an adult. (So there U21 is a reasonable cuttoff to commence residency)

2nd , purpose and motivation for residency migration , is it for education , to uplift from current condition or is it to earn a professional contract. Read below on why the former is consistent with the principles of the U16 rule

Education both high school degree and College/University gained while being a full time student is viewed very highly and a significant laudable connection to a country (much more than working in a country) - it demonstrates the country is responsible for educating an individual in need
- Financial & parental supervision dependence for a full time student youth for basic living needs not available to the individual from his home country is a significant factor when making a favorable decision. do note every player who's played for the youth team is exempted approved.

To the Moderator, to the Admin please close this thread. If anyone to discuss any other topic not related to SEA GAMES 32 (Cambodia) please create a separate thread. Thank you.

[DAdmiral]

In the absence of defining a specific number of years residency and domestic play in the exception guidelines, it is advised that the intent and purpose of the rule is taken into account .

The rule encourages youth developlent in the country, so in essence one needs to define what is the minimum age to classified as youth, commonly most countries consider anyone who has reached the age of 21 as an adult. (So there U21 is a reasonable cuttoff to commence residency)

2nd , purpose and motivation for residency migration , is it for education , to uplift from current condition or is it to earn a professional contract. Read below on why the former is consistent with the principles of the U16 rule

Education both high school degree and College/University gained while being a full time student is viewed very highly and a significant laudable connection to a country (much more than working in a country) - it demonstrates the country is responsible for educating an individual in need
- Financial & parental supervision dependence for a full time student youth for basic living needs not available to the individual from his home country is a significant factor when making a favorable decision. do note every player who's played for the youth team is exempted approved.

[Gusty]

This is really not like the court of law, where the burden of proof has to be definitive beyond reasonable doubt.

Actually, the standards can and should vary, depending on the nature of the case. Apart from “beyond reasonable doubt” , there are also the standards of “preponderance of evidence” and “substantial evidence” that can come into play.

Of course there is the discretion of the deciding authority as well, where subjectivity can become a factor — and this is where the networking skills and prowess of the national federations can become a factor. It appears that MVP once played this card very well, particularly when Herr Baumann was still alive.

[DAdmiral]

@k3itch, that's quite spot on, it's very similar to visa decisions, the immigration department and it's officers are not obligated to publish the reason for their decisions, and one really cannot use precedence as the basis and compare, it doesn't mean if one was approved with a similar looking situation then every one else should be approved , additionally there is no exact formula criteria, such as if you xx amount of years of residency or work experience or are of what age. From experience in many cases the public is not aware of certain details and as such do not have the full picture. This is really not like the court of law, where the burden of proof has to be definitive beyond reasonable doubt. That is not the standard of making decisions here. Especially for exception cases that do not have a measurable exact criteria (like how many years residency is adequate or how young is not too old ). Bragging aside I don't think there is a Filipino citizen that is as familar with the process as I may be, as I've been advising a few federations and have had dialogue with FIBA central on the matter.

[k3ttch]

The frustration many of us have with FIBA lies in because we expect them to act like a court of law when making their decisions. They are not, and are not required to make statements as to how they reached their decisions nor are they obligated to act with consistency when making their decisions; precedent and jurisprudence do not play a part here. Don't expect a sports governing body to play fair or be rational with their decisions. If that were the case Qatar would never have gotten to host both the football and basketball World Cups.

[DAdmiral]

If SBP can gain support from other federations, why not? SBP needs influence within FIBA to change the eligibility rules. This is more political than legal.

For now, what SBP can do is to find a workaround under the existing eligibility rules of FIBA, with the use of our existing internal mechanism (our naturalization laws as well as our constitutional provisions on citizenship).

Yes there is possibility for improving the policy and the level of setting regulations, such as increasing the age for passport cut-off, and including residency requirement for a parent or grand parent , if heritage is to be included as a factor.

All policy improvements however have a proper forum to discuss matters , FIBA has a policy and legal committee that addresses these issues. Certainly it's not argued or debated when when you submit and lobby for a player to be eligible prior to competition, that's out of place .
like u don't aegue SEAG eligibility rules agreed on (passport only) just prior to games

[DAdmiral]

Whether there still is a chance for others or there were exceptional cases of older players who got approval is beside the point .

The point is what has already been clearly communicated by FIBA in their drafted guidelines and SeC general letters of decision for exceptions? That’s all.

And clearly and repeatedly been communicated by FiBA to all national federations they are.

1. number of years residency
2. Number of years domestic league play

1b and 2b, AGE as a minor (Before 21) for 1 (residency years ) and 2. (Domestic competition, normally school competition for minors)

How clear is that?

Now if A federation doesn't want to consider the explicit guidelines with the hope for an exceptional case contrary to stated guidelines, that's up to them. . The SBP listening from FIBA communicated decisions has decided otherwise to no longer pursue exceptions for players who established residency as an adult pro . Taking into consideration the advise of the sec general on cases submitted thst have been rejected.

FIBA's viiew Residency as a none adult student is quite different from adult residency for the purpose of professional income ..

[ja.he]

How about that rule of passport of 16 yrs old be move to 19 years old. Atleast the player can make the decision to which country he wants to represent. They can get their passport on their own.

If SBP can gain support from other federations, why not? SBP needs influence within FIBA to change the eligibility rules. This is more political than legal.

For now, what SBP can do is to find a workaround under the existing eligibility rules of FIBA, with the use of our existing internal mechanism (our naturalization laws as well as our constitutional provisions on citizenship).

[zairex]

How about that rule of passport of 16 yrs old be move to 19 years old. Atleast the player can make the decision to which country he wants to represent. They can get their passport on their own.

[greenarcher]

For me, the better option there is to bring foreign teens (ages 12-14) to study high school here under a scholarship program

This is plausible. If Ateneo was actually able to make Ange Kouame to make him study high school here, why not make it to others at a much younger age?

We can help Ukrainian and Sudanese child/teen refugees to get out from their troubled countries and have them a better life. Venezuelan asylum seekers are also there.

Have a this pathway vis-a-vis the Fil-Am nation pathway as well as the pathway for homegrowns will potentially make our program formidable.

Agree with this

[ja.he]

For me, the better option there is to bring foreign teens (ages 12-14) to study high school here under a scholarship program

This is plausible. If Ateneo was actually able to make Ange Kouame study high school here, why not make it to others at a much younger age?

We can help Ukrainian and Sudanese child/teen refugees to get out from their troubled countries and have them a better life. Venezuelan asylum seekers are also around the corner.

Have this pathway vis-a-vis the Fil-Am nation pathway as well as the pathway for homegrowns, Philippines will have a potentially formidable basketball program.

[Giannis34GOD]

Exception fallacy agan!!

How? It just a fact... If we follow what your thought, Then Young should never been getting exemption case... You only just complicating things... Remember, PHL law is different and any other countries too... FIBA doesn't care what laws implementing each country, They have their own set of rules... VBF aggressively push Young's exemption and it paid off... They are also lobby the case of Juzang, Tham and Dierker, But they need to setting this up first because it will take more money to do that....