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Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

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  • Originally posted by IPC View Post

    Oftana played 4 in Beda, but even then, he always played like a wing on offense. I saw his perimeter defense late.

    As for Lopez, he plays 4 most of the time, plays 3 occasionally when paired with a guy like 6'6" Mark Belmonte (another long mobile guy with perimeter skill). He does play outside in like abperimeter guy on offense. His perimeter defense isn't that good, though, help defender like Kobe Paras was for UP.
    Oftana was raw as hell but athletic when he first came to SBC. And he played behind similar players like Mocon, Navarro and Alas not to mention traditional bigs and guards. He was always gigil when given PT like a young Kobe Paras and Francis Lopez only he's more prone to making mistakes. Which is why it was a blessing in disguise when Mocon , Navarro and Alas left. He was finally able to show his full potential

    Kinda feels like the same situation is happening in UP. You got a lot of guys who are holding each other back. I feel like we're overlooking some players because of how deep their positions are

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    • Originally posted by Metta View Post

      Like I mentioned before, the starting lineup of the Spurs:

      PG 6'8 Sochan
      SG 6'5 Vassell
      SF 6'5 Johnson
      PF 7'4 Wemby
      C 6'11 Colllins

      Pigeonholing players based on height is no longer optimal.
      Why are they forcing Sochan as the PG?

      Tre as the point was working out better.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DAdmiral View Post
        ^^
        Which begs the question, what exposure did 3 of the 4 have in their formative development years (most of high school) , these guys were already around 6' 3 when in Hight school. and for the one exception Oftana , what position did he get exposure at in HS and college , (probably not purely 4 ? , right ),, now if you're honest about it , is this the same reps exposure , guys like Arwind, Troy rosario, Belo or even Lebron Lopez are exposed to in HS and college. ?
        From what I read,Oftana is a late learner in basketball. I think he began playing the game when he was already 13 or 14. He was living in a remote village in Negros Oriental when he was discovered by coach Mike Villahermosa who recruited Oftana to play for the high school team of Asian College-Dumaguete. In short, Oftana didn't get a very good basketball background like most basketball stars & superstars in the UAAP & NCAA did.
        "A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power, when you stand before God, you cannot say, 'But I was told by others to do thus,' or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice." - King Baldwin IV

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        • Originally posted by JAMSKIE View Post

          From what I read,Oftana is a late learner in basketball. I think he began playing the game when he was already 13 or 14. He was living in a remote village in Negros Oriental when he was discovered by coach Mike Villahermosa who recruited Oftana to play for the high school team of Asian College-Dumaguete. In short, Oftana didn't get a very good basketball background like most basketball stars & superstars in the UAAP & NCAA did.
          But I think he was a 2 sport guy though with volleyball. I think like Abueva and Rosario. Good training for two feet jumping.

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          • Originally posted by IPC View Post

            Oftana played 4 in Beda, but even then, he always played like a wing on offense. I saw his perimeter defense late.

            As for Lopez, he plays 4 most of the time, plays 3 occasionally when paired with a guy like 6'6" Mark Belmonte (another long mobile guy with perimeter skill). He does play outside in like abperimeter guy on offense. His perimeter defense isn't that good, though, help defender like Kobe Paras was for UP.
            Of the 6'4-6'6 guys in UAAP who has good laterals? I think Chris Koon. But he is ineligible.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Rds View Post
              Of the 6'4-6'6 guys in UAAP who has good laterals? I think Chris Koon. But he is ineligible.
              Ayun na nga, I mentioned 6'5" Torculas and 6'4" Briones. They can keep up, just need work on that end. Moreso for Belmonte and Lopez.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by IPC View Post

                Ayun na nga, I mentioned 6'5" Torculas and 6'4" Briones. They can keep up, just need work on that end. Moreso for Belmonte and Lopez.
                Thats good to know we have home growns who have size and can keep up laterallly.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by sroth3839 View Post

                  Why are they forcing Sochan as the PG?

                  Tre as the point was working out better.
                  I think it's for the "upside potential." Popovich mentioned that with length/size being their strength, he wants to further strengthen it. If Sochan works out at pg, they will control the paint against anyone.

                  It's anticipated that he will struggle with it early, but I guess Pop sees enough flashes of it working that he will give it a bit more chance.

                  NBA coaches are big on upside, they look beyond someone's current state and always look for potential. They don't wait for players to become hinog. And the time to experiment for the Spurs is now, there's no rush to become contenders yet. Still try and get a few more pieces from the draft (so winning is not a priority) while Wemby develops.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Metta View Post

                    I think it's for the "upside potential." Popovich mentioned that with length/size being their strength, he wants to further strengthen it. If Sochan works out at pg, they will control the paint against anyone.

                    It's anticipated that he will struggle with it early, but I guess Pop sees enough flashes of it working that he will give it a bit more chance.

                    NBA coaches are big on upside, they look beyond someone's current state and always look for potential. They don't wait for players to become hinog. And the time to experiment for the Spurs is now, there's no rush to become contenders yet. Still try and get a few more pieces from the draft (so winning is not a priority) while Wemby develops.
                    The Spurs have been trying to develop a big PG for years. White was one of them. Murray was already a PG when they drafted him so he doesnt count. And then there was Primo who was dropped for flashing his family jewels. I think White is the best so far. But White had good fundamentals already. Sochan will take a long time. But they they have a lot of holes in their 5 like Collins and to an extent Johnson. Unfortunatrly, it doesnt seem Pop has a better alternative to Collins.

                    Wemby is hungry to win. If they keep on losing, Pop might lose Wembys trust. To be fair, Vic is no Duncan or LBJ. His skillset is more unique and harder to build on. But it still doesnt let Pop and the Spurs off the hook to get the optimal players and system around Vic.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rds View Post

                      The Spurs have been trying to develop a big PG for years. White was one of them. Murray was already a PG when they drafted him so he doesnt count. And then there was Primo who was dropped for flashing his family jewels. I think White is the best so far. But White had good fundamentals already. Sochan will take a long time. But they they have a lot of holes in their 5 like Collins and to an extent Johnson. Unfortunatrly, it doesnt seem Pop has a better alternative to Collins.

                      Wemby is hungry to win. If they keep on losing, Pop might lose Wembys trust. To be fair, Vic is no Duncan or LBJ. His skillset is more unique and harder to build on. But it still doesnt let Pop and the Spurs off the hook to get the optimal players and system around Vic.
                      Being an nba championship contender takes time. I think Wemby is big on having mentors and Tony Parker has for sure explained to him that it's rare to find one better than Popovich. He does not strike me as someone who will demand for things after just a year or two. Aside from being so skilled at his height, Wemby exhibits exceptional fundamentals. That means he is very coachable and disciplined. I think he's smart enough to know that the Spurs know what they're doing.

                      There hasn't been a player like Wemby so putting the optimal pieces around him will take trial and error. For young guys, there is more to learn from losing than winning. Then you get the bonus of having higher draft picks in the process.

                      The Spurs practice facility has a sort of motto..."Pounding The Rock." Look up its meaning and it will become clear what identity is being instilled in them.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Metta View Post

                        Being an nba championship contender takes time. I think Wemby is big on having mentors and Tony Parker has for sure explained to him that it's rare to find one better than Popovich. He does not strike me as someone who will demand for things after just a year or two. Aside from being so skilled at his height, Wemby exhibits exceptional fundamentals. That means he is very coachable and disciplined. I think he's smart enough to know that the Spurs know what they're doing.

                        There hasn't been a player like Wemby so putting the optimal pieces around him will take trial and error. For young guys, there is more to learn from losing than winning. Then you get the bonus of having higher draft picks in the process.

                        The Spurs practice facility has a sort of motto..."Pounding The Rock." Look up its meaning and it will become clear what identity is being instilled in them.
                        I know PTR. I have been a member of the PTR forum for years now. While I agree somewhat with it, I think talent is important and probably more than culture. TD had been basically the pole that propped up the Spurs for 2 decades. Although, he had help in his first year or two, you can argue that the Spurs was the least talented of all the contenders of that era. TP and Manu have fans but objectively speaking they pale compared to the other guards and forwards of contenders of their era like Kobe, Kidd in their prime. Pop even said it himself, TD basically carried the team.

                        What I'm saying is, that VIc, good as he is, is a bit harder to build a contender around on because of his different talent and the era now. Spurs were able grind out pace and center their defense and offense on TD. They could succeed even with inferior talents because they had arguably the best NBA player of his time and they could grind it out to limit the effectiveness of offensively talented teams. The NBA now is different. You need more offensive talent as well as defensive talent as well. Gone are the days you slow it down and at the end of shotclock just dump it to TD for a foul or sure two. Or when you could force perimeter players and funnel them to TD. Vic needs more talent around him.

                        Also, unlike say LBJ, Vic's talents are not immediately translatable to victories in the NBA. He is not an overwhelming force like LBJ was. LBJ dragged one of the least talented teams in the Cavs to Finals after Finals in the weak East. So the Spurs have a bigger challenge for them. Vic already gained some pounds for muscles but he still can be pushed around. He is not as skilled or as quick as Durant was offensively but he is much taller and longer though.

                        One thing I would want to see though eventually, is for Pop to try other centers with Vic if Collins continues to play unsatisfactorily. Also, they probably need to draft a taller PG next year if the Sochan experiment fails.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rds View Post

                          I know PTR. I have been a member of the PTR forum for years now. While I agree somewhat with it, I think talent is important and probably more than culture. TD had been basically the pole that propped up the Spurs for 2 decades. Although, he had help in his first year or two, you can argue that the Spurs was the least talented of all the contenders of that era. TP and Manu have fans but objectively speaking they pale compared to the other guards and forwards of contenders of their era like Kobe, Kidd in their prime. Pop even said it himself, TD basically carried the team.

                          What I'm saying is, that VIc, good as he is, is a bit harder to build a contender around on because of his different talent and the era now. Spurs were able grind out pace and center their defense and offense on TD. They could succeed even with inferior talents because they had arguably the best NBA player of his time and they could grind it out to limit the effectiveness of offensively talented teams. The NBA now is different. You need more offensive talent as well as defensive talent as well. Gone are the days you slow it down and at the end of shotclock just dump it to TD for a foul or sure two. Or when you could force perimeter players and funnel them to TD. Vic needs more talent around him.

                          Also, unlike say LBJ, Vic's talents are not immediately translatable to victories in the NBA. He is not an overwhelming force like LBJ was. LBJ dragged one of the least talented teams in the Cavs to Finals after Finals in the weak East. So the Spurs have a bigger challenge for them. Vic already gained some pounds for muscles but he still can be pushed around. He is not as skilled or as quick as Durant was offensively but he is much taller and longer though.

                          One thing I would want to see though eventually, is for Pop to try other centers with Vic if Collins continues to play unsatisfactorily. Also, they probably need to draft a taller PG next year if the Sochan experiment fails.
                          The nba career of Wemby is barely a month old, let's not get carried away. He's nowhere near a finished product, and no one knows for sure what he'll eventually become.

                          You expecting Wemby to become quickly impatient and demanding is the complete antithesis of the Pounding The Rock Spurs. They literally preach patience and long-term development over get-rich quick schemes. If he has a problem with that approach, then it's going to get ugly. But for me, it's clear he's the type of person who values patience and trust. He is a product of a very looong term and forward-looking type of development and trusting in his coaches.

                          I beg to differ about culture. All championship teams/coaches know, a winning culture/identity trumps a talented roster more often than not. So many assembled super teams that never pan out.

                          Last edited by Metta; 11-14-2023, 11:46 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by C2Hamm
                            can SBP plan in advance? sure, primary players can be b league but they can also "pool" in young'ish PBA players or projected to be in the PBA in the next year or 2. Datu, Carino, eventually Villegas is no where near JMR of Japeth but can be building blocks. KQ, Kobe Paras, Balti, can play at the wings same with Balunggay maybe Justine Sanchez? there are loads of guards who will finish college this year and next who can be considered together with Tuffin , Lucero, Winston, with LJ gonzales, koon, cabanero, among others. again, PBA should be able to build a team without "outside" help but better if they plan ahead.
                            Originally posted by Sikatrix
                            If you want the SBP to plan this early then you have to take away KBL and BLeague talents since they have been proven to be unreliable Asian Games wise. Same with ineligibles since who knows what rules Japan decides to implement.
                            Originally posted by C2Hamm
                            if thats how SBP wants to do it, so be it. if its a pool, add the ineligible. what if they use same rule as the recent games? pwede ineligible. just make sure they can make a team even without any ineligible plus a handfull probably replacement in case of injury or if someone becomes unavailable.

                            us wanting SBP to do things certain way is different from what they want to do or deem feasible to do. for the now, i just want them to have atleast a 4 year program that they will stick to.
                            Originally posted by ARMIR
                            That 4 year program will never see the overseas guys,so moving forward only PBA/SMC players and a NP that only plays locally,that would mean no Kouame either.
                            Originally posted by C2Hamm
                            i agree for Asian games. but wouldn't the other games be included in a 4 year program? if we are assuming that non-PBA players wont be used, does that mean ALL games regardless if FIBA or not, PBA will commit already?

                            regardless of the answer there, so be it if thats how SBP wants to plan it. but having that long of a program, there shouldnt be anymore we didnt have enough time to prepare, we didnt know so and so player was not available, or any of the usual excuses we hear. SBP should do what think is best and commit. if that means no more Kai, Dwight, Renz, Ange, or whoever, so be it. but no more excuses.
                            Originally posted by CoJ
                            so, back to the BAP-PBA agreement days of the 90s.
                            I said this before, but I think Chua brought up the following in his interview with Quinito:

                            1. A Gilas team full of age 19-24 prospects that can compete in the PBA as a guest team (most likely he was referring to a team of prospects; he mentioned the guest team part after saying that the 19-24 age group is palaban).

                            2. Plan in advance. That means coordinating with the PBA and the overseas guys on the schedule.

                            It's Vargas that's the stubborn SOB who insists on using the PBA guys. Chua's open to calling the overseas guys.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by IPC View Post











                              I said this before, but I think Chua brought up the following in his interview with Quinito:

                              1. A Gilas team full of age 19-24 prospects that can compete in the PBA as a guest team (most likely he was referring to a team of prospects; he mentioned the guest team part after saying that the 19-24 age group is palaban).

                              2. Plan in advance. That means coordinating with the PBA and the overseas guys on the schedule.

                              It's Vargas that's the stubborn SOB who insists on using the PBA guys. Chua's open to calling the overseas guys.
                              number 1 is a good idea, pba might be left behind but in terms of guard play, our young guns can learn from the skatis, bolicks and romeos of the league. Wings and the bigs are a concern though, but could be fixed with the right import as a antagonist. Plus playing in the pba can build chemistry (hope that smc is willing to spend for foreign tourneys as well)

                              Vargas is still bitter with our exports, Chua on the other hand didnt have and issues with Abando leaving (Bolick is another case though, but at least he’s no longer blacklisted).


                              Now the big question is, who will be the coach, (utang na loob wag super friends)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CoJ View Post
                                number 1 is a good idea, pba might be left behind but in terms of guard play, our young guns can learn from the skatis, bolicks and romeos of the league. Wings and the bigs are a concern though, but could be fixed with the right import as a antagonist. Plus playing in the pba can build chemistry (hope that smc is willing to spend for foreign tourneys as well)

                                Vargas is still bitter with our exports, Chua on the other hand didnt have and issues with Abando leaving (Bolick is another case though, but at least he’s no longer blacklisted).


                                Now the big question is, who will be the coach, (utang na loob wag super friends)
                                For coaching, I think Jeff Napa would be a decent choice. He's a Superfriend, but he knows his tactics, especially on defense. His weakness, however, is generating offense. His NU are unselfish, but offense isn't the best.

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