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Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

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  • I just hope that our good people at SBP can come up with a good program for our national team in the next 4 years with the goal of being able to qualify for the 2025 FIBA Asia Cup & the 2027 FIBA World Cup & of course be able to perform decently in those tournament. I hope that among the moves would be to gather the Gilas B-league players & the current top collegiate players for a 3 to 4-week training camp & participate in the annual William Jones Cup in Taiwan. Such national team training camp could be held during the July to August period (when the B-league & KBL are on their off season & the UAAP & NCAA basketball season have not yet started).

    If such training camp is held annually, then I think the development of cohesion/chemistry of the Gilas team would be fasttracked. Aa I kept on saying, achieving cohesion or chemistry in a national team is done thru a cycle (say a 4 or 5-year cycle). Because to be realistic, U can't have your national team train/prepare full time for 6 or 8 months because your national team players are mostly professional players who are playing in several pro basketball leagues who usually have about only 3 to 4 months of off season.
    "A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power, when you stand before God, you cannot say, 'But I was told by others to do thus,' or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice." - King Baldwin IV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Joe Yabuki View Post
      Jong Uichico covering the game and he says some pretty insightful stuff, for one he mentioned that players these days no longer move when they do not possess the ball, a skill often neglected during development
      Originally posted by JAMSKIE View Post
      Great point. I think one thing that most foreign coaches emphasises to the players is movement without the ball so as to be able to break down the opponent's defense better.

      For me, one of the downside of the dribble-drive-offense is that the offensive players without the ball tend to just stand in there instead of constantly moving & just watch their teammate who has the ball do his thing.
      Originally posted by ja.he View Post
      In foreign vlogs that I have watched, some pointed that ball moves faster than the player. Based on physics, that is correct, however, players moving without the ball will further amplify such. Constant cutting with fast ball movement will make the play more efficient.
      Originally posted by CoJ View Post
      summary of Chot’s ddo
      Originally posted by JAMSKIE View Post
      ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

      If we look at coach Chot's Gilas team it usually had some good shot creators & go-to-guy players - Castro, Blatche, Clarkson, Brownlee, CJ Perez. I think U need these kind of players in a dribble-drive-offense. I think without these kind of players DDO is going to struggle big time.

      If if we look at coach Tab's Gilas team in 2021, that team didn't have any go-to-guy or iso player. Yet that team was able to sweep South Korea in 2 games & put a scare on Serbia in the Olympic Qualifying Tournament.

      If U look at coach Tab's 2021 Gilas team, you'll see constant player movement & no iso plays.
      I think Chot's DDO struggling without shot creators is because his DDO is heliocentric, meaning it's centered on a ball-dominant player. That's why you need shot creators for his offense.

      DDO dosen't necessarily have to involve a heliocentric offense where a player has to iso. You can get it through dribble handoffs, quick PnR action, off-ball cuts. You just need guys who are good at dribble penetration.

      For off-ball offense, here's the thing. For all-of Jordan, Kobe, Steph, and Kevin Durant being able to score, those four did a lot of work off the ball. Still, their teammates could still move and get in scoring positions and opportunities. Teams just took advantage of the scorers' gravity. Shot creation only came in emergency situations. I think we should have applied these when we had JC in the WC.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by IPC View Post

        Teams just took advantage of the scorers' gravity. Shot creation only came in emergency situations. I think we should have applied these when we had JC in the WC.
        Coach Chot didnt have the luxury of time since Clarkson joined the team barely 3 weeks before the World Cup. I think things would have been a bit different had Clarkson joined the team 1 month before the World Cup & played around 6 tune up games with the team prior to the tournament.

        "A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power, when you stand before God, you cannot say, 'But I was told by others to do thus,' or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice." - King Baldwin IV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by IPC View Post







          I think Chot's DDO struggling without shot creators is because his DDO is heliocentric, meaning it's centered on a ball-dominant player. That's why you need shot creators for his offense.

          DDO dosen't necessarily have to involve a heliocentric offense where a player has to iso. You can get it through dribble handoffs, quick PnR action, off-ball cuts. You just need guys who are good at dribble penetration.

          For off-ball offense, here's the thing. For all-of Jordan, Kobe, Steph, and Kevin Durant being able to score, those four did a lot of work off the ball. Still, their teammates could still move and get in scoring positions and opportunities. Teams just took advantage of the scorers' gravity. Shot creation only came in emergency situations. I think we should have applied these when we had JC in the WC.
          The DDO itself is inherently not a bad offense. The DDO relies on the principle of the "three or key" offensive mindset where the aim of the offense is for the players to get scoring opportunities by driving in the key and shooting threes. The best shot in basketball is a freethrow shot with a 1.4PPP for an average 70 percent freethrow shooter, and you get the most freethrow attempts by attacking the paint. The next best shot is a layup in the paint, and the three point shot is next. The worst shot in the game of basketball is the midrange shot which the DDO systematically reduces or eliminates.

          Now, before someone labels me a Chot hater, let me first say that in his "debut" during the 2012-2014 era, Chot's offense was actually revolutionary. During that time, the prevailing offense is the more traditional lineups and systems. Chot's offense took advantage of the analytics at the time when it was still in the infancy of being exploited. He ran a 4 out 1 offense with Douthit and an even more revolutionary 5-out offense in the 2014 World Cup with Dray Blatche as his big. We've seen opponents struggle against our high paced attacking offense. Chot let guards such as Alapag shoot three pointers a foot or more away from the three point line when this was frowned upon even in the NBA (even Curry did not take shots as far as that back in 2012-2014). He was also a great motivator during that time and he rallied both his team and the crowd with him.

          The problem then with Chot's DDO is that he relies too much on it, and he has little to no variety, and this was greatly exposed when he came back as coach during the 2017 FIBA Asia Cup. Once they have already been exposed and opponent's coaches have seen and figured out his one-dimensional offense, the flaws of Chot's DDO are exacerbated:

          1.) He has little to no post offense opportunities on his DDO. He made traditional bigs like Fajardo and Douthit just stand in the dunker spot for potential dropoffs and putbacks. This affected their mindset and morale in both offense and defense. This was also the reason why Fajardo was almost useless in his lineups since his strength in posting up is not utilized, and thus Chot had to do with the smaller bigs such as Ping.

          2.) The attacking lead guards have too exert a great ton of effort just for them to breakdown their guards since their are little to no screen/handoff setups as they start their dribble drive. This gives them less energy for defense, and thus our defense became a doormat.

          3.) His DDO was too vanilla during the 2012-2018 era. As IPC have mentioned, he could have greatly modified his offense so that it was less reliant with his lead guards while keeping the "three-or-key" mindset.

          4.) Chot had great problems when his opponents run a zone. Since he has this "attacking the defense through dribble-driving mindset" ingrained in his players, once a zone is ran, Gilas' offense almost always becomes a net negative. The zone is broken down by attacking the areas where that zone does not have a person manning through quick passes. We've seen South Korea running a 3-2 zone defense for almost the whole game against us to great results. We've seen Castro and Romeo still trying to attack those zones through dribble driving, and they just hit brick wall after brick wall.

          Couple all of these with his flair for the dramatic, we will see why he had little success once he came back to Gilas on 2017 onwards.

          As Marcus Douthit himself said on a post/tweet, you cannot utilize an offense for multiple years without opponent coaches figuring you out, and Chot does not really excel on both in-game and off-game adjustments.

          Comment


          • System
            Well said bro. I agree with U
            "A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power, when you stand before God, you cannot say, 'But I was told by others to do thus,' or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice." - King Baldwin IV

            Comment


            • 6-foot-5 Ken Tuffin is another good size small forward that I think is a good Gilas prospect. If Tuffin's defensive skills would be within the level of a prime Gabe Norwood, then I guess he can be serviceable with Gilas. I think offense wise, he is better than a prime Norwood.

              Gilas' pool of talent at the small forward spot would be:

              6-5 Dwight Ramos
              6-5 Calvin Oftana
              6-6 Will Navarro
              6-5 Ken Tuffin

              I see Jamie Malonzo as more of a four than a small forward.
              "A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power, when you stand before God, you cannot say, 'But I was told by others to do thus,' or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice." - King Baldwin IV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by System View Post

                The DDO itself is inherently not a bad offense. The DDO relies on the principle of the "three or key" offensive mindset where the aim of the offense is for the players to get scoring opportunities by driving in the key and shooting threes. The best shot in basketball is a freethrow shot with a 1.4PPP for an average 70 percent freethrow shooter, and you get the most freethrow attempts by attacking the paint. The next best shot is a layup in the paint, and the three point shot is next. The worst shot in the game of basketball is the midrange shot which the DDO systematically reduces or eliminates.

                Now, before someone labels me a Chot hater, let me first say that in his "debut" during the 2012-2014 era, Chot's offense was actually revolutionary. During that time, the prevailing offense is the more traditional lineups and systems. Chot's offense took advantage of the analytics at the time when it was still in the infancy of being exploited. He ran a 4 out 1 offense with Douthit and an even more revolutionary 5-out offense in the 2014 World Cup with Dray Blatche as his big. We've seen opponents struggle against our high paced attacking offense. Chot let guards such as Alapag shoot three pointers a foot or more away from the three point line when this was frowned upon even in the NBA (even Curry did not take shots as far as that back in 2012-2014). He was also a great motivator during that time and he rallied both his team and the crowd with him.

                The problem then with Chot's DDO is that he relies too much on it, and he has little to no variety, and this was greatly exposed when he came back as coach during the 2017 FIBA Asia Cup. Once they have already been exposed and opponent's coaches have seen and figured out his one-dimensional offense, the flaws of Chot's DDO are exacerbated:

                1.) He has little to no post offense opportunities on his DDO. He made traditional bigs like Fajardo and Douthit just stand in the dunker spot for potential dropoffs and putbacks. This affected their mindset and morale in both offense and defense. This was also the reason why Fajardo was almost useless in his lineups since his strength in posting up is not utilized, and thus Chot had to do with the smaller bigs such as Ping.

                2.) The attacking lead guards have too exert a great ton of effort just for them to breakdown their guards since their are little to no screen/handoff setups as they start their dribble drive. This gives them less energy for defense, and thus our defense became a doormat.

                3.) His DDO was too vanilla during the 2012-2018 era. As IPC have mentioned, he could have greatly modified his offense so that it was less reliant with his lead guards while keeping the "three-or-key" mindset.

                4.) Chot had great problems when his opponents run a zone. Since he has this "attacking the defense through dribble-driving mindset" ingrained in his players, once a zone is ran, Gilas' offense almost always becomes a net negative. The zone is broken down by attacking the areas where that zone does not have a person manning through quick passes. We've seen South Korea running a 3-2 zone defense for almost the whole game against us to great results. We've seen Castro and Romeo still trying to attack those zones through dribble driving, and they just hit brick wall after brick wall.

                Couple all of these with his flair for the dramatic, we will see why he had little success once he came back to Gilas on 2017 onwards.

                As Marcus Douthit himself said on a post/tweet, you cannot utilize an offense for multiple years without opponent coaches figuring you out, and Chot does not really excel on both in-game and off-game adjustments.
                I think you better watch this video to understand the plays of Chot during 2014. The team he handle with good prep time. It wasn't just DDO.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JAMSKIE View Post
                  6-foot-5 Ken Tuffin is another good size small forward that I think is a good Gilas prospect. If Tuffin's defensive skills would be within the level of a prime Gabe Norwood, then I guess he can be serviceable with Gilas. I think offense wise, he is better than a prime Norwood.

                  Gilas' pool of talent at the small forward spot would be:

                  6-5 Dwight Ramos
                  6-5 Calvin Oftana
                  6-6 Will Navarro
                  6-5 Ken Tuffin

                  I see Jamie Malonzo as more of a four than a small forward.
                  Tuffin is indeed a very good national team player prospect. Emphasis on team player. He's a type of guy that you can plug and play in any system which is valuable for national teams that have limited preparation time. Same with Will Navarro. I can envision them being Danny Green type of players (sought after by champion teams).

                  It's interesting how we now seemingly have a steady stream of unexpected gilas prospects. Out of those 5, 4 were born overseas and although they had different routes, all turned out to become excellent players. However, I think this "steady stream" of unexpected prospects can be a double-edged sword. It enables the leaders/officials to continue to neglect the grassroots level because talent will emerge no matter what. But props to them for getting filfors passports early, that means they are also able to identify prospects early (either that or families of prospects are smarter now and getting their children passports as an insurance).

                  Comment


                  • ^^
                    Which begs the question, what exposure did 3 of the 4 have in their formative development years (most of high school) , these guys were already around 6' 3 when in Hight school. and for the one exception Oftana , what position did he get exposure at in HS and college , (probably not purely 4 ? , right ),, now if you're honest about it , is this the same reps exposure , guys like Arwind, Troy rosario, Belo or even Lebron Lopez are exposed to in HS and college. ?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DAdmiral View Post
                      ^^
                      Which begs the question, what exposure did 3 of the 4 have in their formative development years (most of high school) , these guys were already around 6' 3 when in Hight school. and for the one exception Oftana , what position did he get exposure at in HS and college , (probably not purely 4 ? , right ),, now if you're honest about it , is this the same reps exposure , guys like Arwind, Troy rosario, Belo or even Lebron Lopez are exposed to in HS and college. ?
                      Oftana played 4 in Beda, but even then, he always played like a wing on offense. I saw his perimeter defense late.

                      As for Lopez, he plays 4 most of the time, plays 3 occasionally when paired with a guy like 6'6" Mark Belmonte (another long mobile guy with perimeter skill). He does play outside in like abperimeter guy on offense. His perimeter defense isn't that good, though, help defender like Kobe Paras was for UP.

                      Comment


                      • well as Wemby has shown , you can play center in defense, and be by far the tallest player in your team, yet you develop perimeter oriented SF / guard like skill set., puede naman..

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by IPC View Post
                          Oftana played 4 in Beda, but even then, he always played like a wing on offense. I saw his perimeter defense late.

                          As for Lopez, he plays 4 most of the time, plays 3 occasionally when paired with a guy like 6'6" Mark Belmonte (another long mobile guy with perimeter skill). He does play outside in like abperimeter guy on offense. His perimeter defense isn't that good, though, help defender like Kobe Paras was for UP.
                          UP have 4 players that can transition to wing or play wing. 6'5" Lopez, 6'6" Belmonte, 6'5" Torculas, and 6'4" Chicco Briones. All of them have the quickness to keep up in the perimeter.

                          I feel though that Torculas (who has improved this UAAP 2nd round) and Chicco are the guys that are better fit to play wing as of the moment due to their lateral quickness, and they're better-used to guarding perimeter players. Also, Chicco was a guard before going here, and Torculas had ballhandling reps in UPIS.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by IPC View Post

                            Oftana played 4 in Beda, but even then, he always played like a wing on offense. I saw his perimeter defense late.

                            As for Lopez, he plays 4 most of the time, plays 3 occasionally when paired with a guy like 6'6" Mark Belmonte (another long mobile guy with perimeter skill). He does play outside in like abperimeter guy on offense. His perimeter defense isn't that good, though, help defender like Kobe Paras was for UP.
                            they all play in the perimeter, UP just has so many good guards they use those guys in the 4

                            as for Oftana, he talked about Norwood as his inspiration for a big guy who can dribble

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DAdmiral View Post
                              well as Wemby has shown , you can play center in defense, and be by far the tallest player in your team, yet you develop perimeter oriented SF / guard like skill set., puede naman..
                              Like I mentioned before, the starting lineup of the Spurs:

                              PG 6'8 Sochan
                              SG 6'5 Vassell
                              SF 6'5 Johnson
                              PF 7'4 Wemby
                              C 6'11 Colllins

                              Pigeonholing players based on height is no longer optimal.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by xenoloxy View Post
                                they all play in the perimeter, UP just has so many good guards they use those guys in the 4

                                as for Oftana, he talked about Norwood as his inspiration for a big guy who can dribble
                                I did say that earlier on, about Chicco, Torculas, Belmonte, and Lopez. Just that, I took note on others' comments on Lopez saying he struggled laterally. On another note, that's why I'm not a fan of getting too many guards.

                                Comment

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