Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

[JAMSKIE]

when d pba adopted the 2-conference format, d pba-rp teams were just able to produce 9th and 8th place finish.

when they returned to 3-conference, gilas made headway. and if not for chot's foolishness, we could have had a better finish in d qualifiers and better performance in 2019 wc.

having a naturalized player is a major part of d success, but (still) the data suggest that we did not do well even with that 2-conference format and fiba-friendly calendar then.

of course, there are many variables for the failures and successes, and that is my point.

Believe me brad when I say that the 3-conference format hasn't anything much to do with our success in 2013 to 2015. Nagkataon lang yun brad that during the 2007, when we finished 9th, & 2009, when we finished 8th, the PBA was in a 2-conference format, while in the 2013 & 2015, where we won both silver medals, eh PBA was in a 3-conference format.

I put it this way, in 2007, we fell into the "Group of Death", and that told much of our chances. In 2009, we had an ill-experience national team coach in terms of FIBA game experience.

Of course as you & some posters here have mentioned, having a naturalized player in 2013 & 2015 was a huge factor. As you've said, maraming factors or variables that came to play. But honestly, the 3-conference format of PBA was hardly any factor for our good showing in 2013 & 2015 as compared to our debacles in 2007 & 2009 in which PBA was then in a 2-conference format.

[DAdmiral]

The reality is it's a different paradigm, 1st of all , there are actually almost none (exception US, Spain and maybe Lithuania) that the best players in a elite (top 20) national team belong to the domestic league . so the premise that they should come from the PBA is already a significant limitation (talo na). You simply cannot be of a world level team (top 20 ), if most of your players come from the PBA. We have to think outside of what we normally do. Japan's Lamas is leaning on something when he realized more of the Japanese players have to play outside to get better , and the fruits are actually starting to show.
Essentially we have to move from our regular ways of forming a team based on a PBA centric formed team. it simply is very limited in potential for success at the world stage.,..

[ARMIR]

The reality is it's a different paradigm, 1st of all , there are actually almost none (exception US, Spain and maybe Lithuania) that the best players in a elite (top 20) national team belong to the domestic league . so the premise that they should come from the PBA is already a significant limitation (talo na). You simply cannot be of a world level team (top 20 ), if most of your players come from the PBA. We have to think outside of what we normally do. Japan's Lamas is leaning on something when he realized more of the Japanese players have to play outside to get better , and the fruits are actually starting to show.
Essentially we have to move from our regular ways of forming a team based on a PBA centric formed team. it simply is very limited in potential for success at the world stage.,..

Maybe its time to have another pro league that would be more flexible in rules regarding imports and foreign teams in an invitational format,to elevate the local talents.

[DAdmiral]

Maybe its time to have another pro league that would be more flexible in rules regarding imports and foreign teams in an invitational format,to elevate the local talents.

A mostly Filipino team in Asia (euro league type format ), so essentially just like the Nz NBL is like div 2 to the Australian NBL, the PBA is div 2 , minor league to a super Asia league

[thatweirdguy]

Believe me brad when I say that the 3-conference format hasn't anything much to do with our success in 2013 to 2015. Nagkataon lang yun brad that during the 2007, when we finished 9th, & 2009, when we finished 8th, the PBA was in a 2-conference format, while in the 2013 & 2015, where we won both silver medals, eh PBA was in a 3-conference format.

I put it this way, in 2007, we fell into the "Group of Death", and that told much of our chances. In 2009, we had an ill-experience national team coach in terms of FIBA game experience.

Of course as you & some posters here have mentioned, having a naturalized player in 2013 & 2015 was a huge factor. As you've said, maraming factors or variables that came to play. But honestly, the 3-conference format of PBA was hardly any factor for our good showing in 2013 & 2015 as compared to our debacles in 2007 & 2009 in which PBA was then in a 2-conference format.

This. It has nothing to with the format heck we could have had a higher placing if the players had a longer break time. That version of GILAS had a lot of factors going for them though.s

The 2007 version underachieved IMO. Great lineup but probably wasn't given enough prep time. Sure we could have benefited from a weaker grouping but good teams always find a way to win and don't depend on luck..

[IPC]

This. It has nothing to with the format heck we could have had a higher placing if the players had a longer break time. That version of GILAS had a lot of factors going for them though.s

The 2007 version underachieved IMO. Great lineup but probably wasn't given enough prep time. Sure we could have benefited from a weaker grouping but good teams always find a way to win and don't depend on luck..

That 2007 team had 8 days from the end of the PBA season. Didn't help that we were also coming from FIBA suspension.

[IPC]

A mostly Filipino team in Asia (euro league type format ), so essentially just like the Nz NBL is like div 2 to the Australian NBL, the PBA is div 2 , minor league to a super Asia league

But most of the EuroLeague teams play in their domestic leagues. We need a new domestic 1st division that is more conducive to the FIBA calendar, and kinda more conducive to foreigners as well.

[DAdmiral]

But most of the EuroLeague teams play in their domestic leagues. We need a new domestic 1st division that is more conducive to the FIBA calendar, and kinda more conducive to foreigners as well.

They do both, Fotu's Italy league team, plays in Serie A, then plays in the Euro cup.

In Oceania during non Covid times, the Australian NBL goes from Sept to April, then the Nz NBl from April to July. So parang 2 conferences .
So like 20 NZ players play in the Australian NBL, then maybe 15 of them move to Nz NBL after.

Of course about 10 NZ pro players play outside of Oceania

The Nz NBL is pang development, the promising high school prospects play with men and imports

[JAMSKIE]

This. It has nothing to with the format heck we could have had a higher placing if the players had a longer break time. That version of GILAS had a lot of factors going for them though.s

The 2007 version underachieved IMO. Great lineup but probably wasn't given enough prep time. Sure we could have benefited from a weaker grouping but good teams always find a way to win and don't depend on luck..

Here's how I see it:

2007 RP team coached by Chot Reyes sucked by placing a dismal 9th place finish. This despite that team had at least 6 months of full-time training/preparation. On the other hand the 2013 Gilas team handled by Chot finished an impressive 2nd place & that team only had about 4 months of training (counting the 2 months training & tournament stints in 2012).

Now, is it logical to conclude that mas mabuti pa ang mas maikling training, mas successful pa yung national team? I don't think that is how we should analyze it. That's becoz some significant factors came into play such as the presence of a naturalized player in 2013 while we didn't have one in 2007, the luck of the draw (remember the "Group of Death" we fell into in 2007. While in 2013 we had the luxury of choosing our group being the host) & I think better coaching in 2013 (I think the Chot Reyes in 2013 was a better coach in so far as FIBA game is concerned than the Chot Reyes in 2007).

I believe the significant factors that will decide the fate of the team are: team composition, presence or lack of a naturalized player, period & quality of preparation/training, coaching & luck.

[interxavierxxx]

Here's how I see it:

2007 RP team coached by Chot Reyes sucked by placing a dismal 9th place finish. This despite that team had at least 6 months of full-time training/preparation. On the other hand the 2013 Gilas team handled by Chot finished an impressive 2nd place & that team only had about 4 months of training (counting the 2 months training & tournament stints in 2012).

Now, is it logical to conclude that mas mabuti pa ang mas maikling training, mas successful pa yung national team? I don't think that is how we should analyze it. That's becoz some significant factors came into play such as the presence of a naturalized player in 2013 while we didn't have one in 2007, the luck of the draw (remember the "Group of Death" we fell into in 2007. While in 2013 we had the luxury of choosing our group being the host) & I think better coaching in 2013 (I think the Chot Reyes in 2013 was a better coach in so far as FIBA game is concerned than the Chot Reyes in 2007).

I believe the significant factors that will decide the fate of the team are: team composition, presence or lack of a naturalized player, period & quality of preparation/training, coaching & luck.

You need to consider the continuity aspect of the 2013 team.

Basically, that team was formed as far back as 2012 with only a few roster changes. In a way, it wasn't a hugot team as they even did training camps in Lithuania and Australia (where Tab eventually got hooked into the Gilas program).

Like I said in a previous post, there is nothing wrong with firing and hiring coaches as long as the foundations set by the predecessor are built upon.

This is the #1 problem with Coach Yeng. He never bothered to continue Reyes' work but threw it out in the middle of a campaign and tried to force his own system. That's not how it works. Look at Tab's first year at Ateneo, it took him nearly a year to fully implement his system.

Kung talagang gusto natin ng consistency, we need to have a real foundation planted from the get-go and built upon from there. Just look at Korea and Iran, they have a different coach from time-to-time but they are always consistent with their performance.

[JAMSKIE]

You need to consider the continuity aspect of the 2013 team.

Basically, that team was formed as far back as 2012 with only a few roster changes. In a way, it wasn't a hugot team as they even did training camps in Lithuania and Australia (where Tab eventually got hooked into the Gilas program).

Well, the same can also be said with the 2007 RP team which came from a large pool (as many as 30 PBA players if I'm not mistaken) that was formed way back in 2005 by no less than coach Chot himself. Remember that during the PBA off-season in 2005 & 2006 (PBA off season was during the months of July, August & Sept back then), this same RP training pool composed of the likes of Alapag, Helterbrand, Taulava, Danny Seigle, Hontiveros, Kelly Williams, RDO, Ritualo played in tournaments like the Las Vegas Summer league, Jones Cup, Brunei Cup, & tournament in Qatar. It also had tune up games vs. Lebanon & the Dennis Rodman-led team made up of retired NBA players.

[interxavierxxx]

Well, the same can also be said with the 2007 RP team which came from a large pool (as many as 30 PBA players if I'm not mistaken) that was formed way back in 2005 by no less than coach Chot himself. Remember that during the PBA off-season in 2005 & 2006 (PBA off season was during the months of July, August & Sept back then), this same RP training pool composed of the likes of Alapag, Helterbrand, Taulava, Danny Seigle, Hontiveros, Kelly Williams, RDO, Ritualo played in tournaments like the Las Vegas Summer league, Jones Cup, Brunei Cup, & tournament in Qatar. It also had tune up games vs. Lebanon & the Dennis Rodman-led team made up of retired NBA players.

The main difference is that we were embracing the FIBA system of play. The rise of the Middle Eastern teams also occurred during this period so we weren't accustomed to their way of playing either.

The point is the 2007 RP team was basically a soft-reboot because the team formed in 2005 was disbanded after we got suspended. Having a naturalized player in 2013 also helped.

[thatweirdguy]

Here's how I see it:

2007 RP team coached by Chot Reyes sucked by placing a dismal 9th place finish. This despite that team had at least 6 months of full-time training/preparation. On the other hand the 2013 Gilas team handled by Chot finished an impressive 2nd place & that team only had about 4 months of training (counting the 2 months training & tournament stints in 2012).

Now, is it logical to conclude that mas mabuti pa ang mas maikling training, mas successful pa yung national team? I don't think that is how we should analyze it. That's becoz some significant factors came into play such as the presence of a naturalized player in 2013 while we didn't have one in 2007, the luck of the draw (remember the "Group of Death" we fell into in 2007. While in 2013 we had the luxury of choosing our group being the host) & I think better coaching in 2013 (I think the Chot Reyes in 2013 was a better coach in so far as FIBA game is concerned than the Chot Reyes in 2007).

I believe the significant factors that will decide the fate of the team are: team composition, presence or lack of a naturalized player, period & quality of preparation/training, coaching & luck.

A lot of factors helped that campaign really. 2013 Chot is a lot better than 2007 Chot. We adapted to the international play already and even the teams composition is tailored to FIBA ball except probably David. I honestly thought that we had finally figured out how to beat the top teams in Asia and is on our way to dominating the competition.. instead we reverted back to the hugot system

[DAdmiral]

Cannot underestimate the change or orientation as a result of playing in Lithuania and New Zealand 2013 , and not just Asia and not just games. (Real training camps),
Unless you experience being there , you do not fully understand the difference in nuisances

In 2000s it's essentially a PBA team converting and learning to play FIBA, including coaching knowhow

In 2012 /13. It was a team built for FIBA using PBA players and a Naturalized center who was not a PBA player oriented.

Then of course presence of a naturalized player (Marcus)

Those make it totally different actually

[deku_midoriya]

Here's how I see it:

2007 RP team coached by Chot Reyes sucked by placing a dismal 9th place finish. This despite that team had at least 6 months of full-time training/preparation. On the other hand the 2013 Gilas team handled by Chot finished an impressive 2nd place & that team only had about 4 months of training (counting the 2 months training & tournament stints in 2012).

Now, is it logical to conclude that mas mabuti pa ang mas maikling training, mas successful pa yung national team? I don't think that is how we should analyze it. That's becoz some significant factors came into play such as the presence of a naturalized player in 2013 while we didn't have one in 2007, the luck of the draw (remember the "Group of Death" we fell into in 2007. While in 2013 we had the luxury of choosing our group being the host) & I think better coaching in 2013 (I think the Chot Reyes in 2013 was a better coach in so far as FIBA game is concerned than the Chot Reyes in 2007).

I believe the significant factors that will decide the fate of the team are: team composition, presence or lack of a naturalized player, period & quality of preparation/training, coaching & luck.

2007 - burnout, group of death (only one team qualify from group stages)

2009 - ill prepared, but still good enough to beat japan and taipei and move to qf

2011- imagine if same format as 2007, we beat jordan already in group stage. We would be in finals

2013 - we are prepared, the best players and playing at home, so we expect finals

2015 - home cooking. Iran was still the best team in asia, but in this tournament i can definitely say that gilas was the better team in 2015

2017 - injury to jf, underestimating korea and inability of chot to adjust in defense. He was exposed defensively