Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

[IPC]

So what is the ranking of Korea in that category

Can't say yet. Determining the ranking will require computing the rebounds and rebound percentage of the teams in their games. That's a lot of games.

I've had to compute myself, since FIBA doesn't really provide advanced stats, and I haven't found the advanced stats per team in other sites.

[DAdmiral]

This isn't really rocket science, Asian teams as a whole do not do really well at world competition. So question is simply which areas of the game are generally (not always) weaknesses that explains why they do not do well?
And the consensus is it's mostly defense and rebounding. Of course it's not limited to that.
The thing with those 2 aspects is everyone on the court has to be adequate. Unlike offense where there is only one ball . So a dominant proficient scorer like a NP can mitigate those weaknesses .
With defense and rebounding it's a shared responsibility throughout the 5 players on the court. And generally (not always)many Asian teams have holes and gaps I certain positions. Especially the positions where switching small to big or big to perimeter is critical.
Like I said it may not show in rebounding stats. But if a team is overloading inside to compensate for lack of rebounding players it then isn't reflective in rebound stats but other metrics like 3 pt open shots or advanced defensive efficiency metrics.
I'm suprise some don't even get this simple well known principle.

[DAdmiral]

Speaking of the need for horizontal space at pace length .. there is a reason why the two are recruited to fill in a gap need

https://sports.inquirer.net/451706/with-lopez-and-harris-gilas-ph-begins-rebuild-of-youth-framework?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1vKWhhD6cDJcbtnC10fpPJL7tgJ8_OptthXCJej3p8-A-SlFOsewfendk#Echobox=1645132583

do not underestimate the value forwards Norwood and Ping provided in 2013 and 2014. if not for them we wouldn't have been half way successful as we were

[Rds]

I agree that length and athleticism are an advantage but I dont think thats a sustainable program because we dont produce enough guys that qualify.

I like Korea because they use a system that accounts for their teams strength and limitations. They are not tall nor long nor extraordinarily athletic.

If footspeed were a basis for Gilas then I would have dropped Kai or even Isaac Go or even Ranidel. Admittedly those guys are generally bad PNR defenders. But with the skills they bring to the table they are contributors.

By all means bring in tall athletic guys but that is not a program. Its a means to add this things to your core program. We have some long guys with decent speed. Why do you think Tab coveted Balti and moved heaven and earth to get him to the pool? Because he is one of the longest guys we have with decent mobility. And his effect and Tabs trust on him shows in the heavy minutes he plays for Gilas.

I guess one way is to train our 6'7 to 6'9 guys to be big SFs like Taane Samuel. I think our main difference Dave is that you think we can only get tall mobile forwards if they have some African or Caucasian mix. And those would typically from offshore. But what I am saying is even if we focus on the home growns we have long mobile guys. They are not as athletic but they have potential to be effective in the international game. Aside from Baltazar, Raven Cortez and Policarpio come to mind. Cortez has already been injured by being bulked up. HS handlers should stop muscling up tall lanky kids irresponsibly. What they need more are skills and conditioning. Let the resident bulky kid be your center, let the tall lanky kid develop as a perimeter player where they will play if they reach international levels.

[DAdmiral]

i'm actually all for developing home grown. i do think the emphasis however is building good all around physical mobility , (footwork, latteralls etc0 , by not necessary playing basketball, but playing other sports that build this base foundation.

A lot of our younger players especially the taller one's are none athletes. (i'm not referring to being athletic or jumping high, but referring to ability to move well as their foundation motor skills are developed in their growing years .

[IPC]

A common practice for teams is the phenom tall player does not practice with the bigs , but with the perimeter small players . Tab does this and makes Baltazar and Tamayo grouped together with the perimeter players.. rather than the bigs.
I hope Troy is practicing with the perimeter players not bigs ( didn't see him in that Kouame video)


I know this is not the wing thread but big men, but just wanted to point out how bigs practice 3 point shots is different from how perimeter players do.

Bigs normally are stationary 3 point shooters ( pick and pop) , while perimeter players in the modern game have to be versatile shooters , (meaning they move around go around screens and shoot 3's of the bounce ) it's quite different. I noticed while it has been a marked improvement to see tall players like Baltazar and Troy shoot 3's efficiently. the way they're shooting 3's are like traditional bigs rather than wing players.. Gilas still needs to develop "true tall wings" who move effortlessly and are versatile 3 point shooters if that makes sense.

Actually, it's not just the homegrown bigs. Most of our homegrowns in general do not really shoot off the catch, on the move. Most threes they take are stationary spot-up shots. I've said that this is a major area of improvement for Gilas, especially designated shooters. Design plays to get our shooters open, and have them shoot off the catch after coming off a screen.

This is another area where Tab kinda helped. He had Isaac Go shooting off the catch while coming off the screen. Tamayo at times too, and I noticed even Baltazar shot off movement.

[zairex]

It is the general (not absolute) scout on Gilas by most and true enough it has worked.. it's not the size but the length to cover space at pace.
When one is horizontally challenge to cover space at speed then one has to make tradeoffs of over compensating by focus on interior at the expense of the perimeter. (This is manifested in the #of 3 pts made by opposing team on Gilas. , you will see it the stats )
If challenged in this area one needs to exert more energy to mitigate disadvantage and so consistency of rebounding and defense is harder to maintain.
It's basic realities of sports.. especially a sport like Basketball and American football where speed and length absolutely matter.
It's not height or even skill. but the quality of over all Basketball athletes we have. No secret Philippines is challenged in this area.

One illustration of this is Kouame , he's not skilled but he has length and motor.. 100 % Gilas.defense and rebounding goes down significantly if he is not on the court . This isn't rocket science.
Unfortunately we don't have many players of Koaume's attributes acceoss the front line . It does matter a lot

Where is the stat. Why don't you show it here. How many times you claim things based on stat but when look at it it totally false.

[DAdmiral]

Where is the stat. Why don't you show it here. How many times you claim things based on stat but when look at it it totally false.

Opponents pts scored. The 3 worst in 2019 World cup are
1. PHILIPPINES gave up 499 pts (that's 100 pts in 40 min!)
2. JAPAN gave up 480 plus
3. JORDAN 460 PLUS
That's terrible defense for a 40 min for 5 games

Margin of pts and against 4 of 5 Asian team are negative with 3 over 100 pts negative . (That's more than 20 point minus on average per game . That's terrible)


Those metrics are definitely impacted by poor defense . While rebounding is part of defense

Unfortunately advance defensive stats are not provided

[zairex]

This isn't really rocket science, Asian teams as a whole do not do really well at world competition. So question is simply which areas of the game are generally (not always) weaknesses that explains why they do not do well?
And the consensus is it's mostly defense and rebounding. Of course it's not limited to that.
The thing with those 2 aspects is everyone on the court has to be adequate. Unlike offense where there is only one ball . So a dominant proficient scorer like a NP can mitigate those weaknesses .
With defense and rebounding it's a shared responsibility throughout the 5 players on the court. And generally (not always)many Asian teams have holes and gaps I certain positions. Especially the positions where switching small to big or big to perimeter is critical.
Like I said it may not show in rebounding stats. But if a team is overloading inside to compensate for lack of rebounding players it then isn't reflective in rebound stats but other metrics like 3 pt open shots or advanced defensive efficiency metrics.
I'm suprise some don't even get this simple well known principle.

Where your stat that Asia contenent is the weakest rebounder. All is just your opinion and uninformed one at that. All you do is narrative no evidence

[IPC]

Another Ginebra defensive masterclass against TNT tonight. Gave up a lot of free looks and open shots to TNT, who shot 56% from the field and 53% from 3. At one point, TNT shot 61% from the field, 61% from 3.

If Ginebra can't defend the perimeter against Mags and TNT, how could they expect to defend the perimeter in the EASL?

It shows CTC's coaching is too old school.. while everyone in the world adopting modern basketball system, CTC still stuck to his old school Triangle system that is not effective nowadays... I love CTC and he's the greatest coach in PBA history but his coaching style will not work these days..

One loss and this is the mindset. It work in the bubble. They just don't have a penetrator like pringle. Watch Yezkiel YT, its not purely Triangle anymore.

People here wants a tall line up which Ginebra did and when get burned or lost to 4 out offense and pinoy ball we get angry. Don't get it

Ginebra was kinda fine offensively, actually. 45% from the field.

What's concerning is the defense. It's not just one game, it's been a theme this year. Even with their 3-guard lineups, they get burned. Late rotations, wide open opposing shooters. What's more is that Cone is willing to give up perimeter jumpers. Collapse the paint and whatnot. Plus, the personnel. Only Scottie's a good perimeter defender in the roster.

Honestly, for the record, I'm not against playing small. Brownlee and Arvin as the 3 and 4 is a FIBA-sized small-ball lineup, actually. Might improve the switchability of the team.

Re: tall lineups, it kinda worked in Gilas defensively. We only got burned badly by Jordan, Tunisia, Serbia, and Dominican Republic, who shot 47% or better. However, most of our other opponents in the FIBA Asia Qualifiers and King's Cup, including the first game against Tunisia, we allowed a FG% below 44%, so defense is kinda OK with tall wings and fours. Thing is, we have mobile tall players at the 3, 4, and 5 positions, namely Navarro, Tamayo, Balti, and even Kouame.

[DAdmiral]

Where your stat that Asia contenent is the weakest rebounder. All is just your opinion and uninformed one at that. All you do is narrative no evidence

I said defense and rebounding (not rebounding alone) and rebounding is part of defense

Points scored against. The 3 worst in 2019 World cup are*
1. PHILIPPINES gave up 499 pts (that's 100 pts iper game n 40 min!)
2. JAPAN gave up 480 plus*
3. JORDAN 460 PLUS*
That's terrible defense for a 40 min for 5 games*

Margin of pts and against 5 of 6.Asian team are negative with 3 over 100 pts negative . (That's more than 20 point minus on average per game . That's terrible)

Asia statistically is by far the worse defense teams and rebounding is part of defense*

[zairex]

I said defense and rebounding (not rebounding alone) and rebounding is part of defense

Points scored against. The 3 worst in 2019 World cup are*
1. PHILIPPINES gave up 499 pts (that's 100 pts iper game n 40 min!)
2. JAPAN gave up 480 plus*
3. JORDAN 460 PLUS*
That's terrible defense for a 40 min for 5 games*

Margin of pts and against 5 of 6.Asian team are negative with 3 over 100 pts negative . (That's more than 20 point minus on average per game . That's terrible)

Asia statistically is by far the worse defense teams and rebounding is part of defense*

Again moving the goalpost. We were talking about rebounds and now showing different stats. So useless to see your comments when you keep moving the narrative. Talking about rebounding then moving to pts against. I will not anymore comment on this because its like talking to a girl that brings up all the issue except the topic of discussion.

[DAdmiral]

Again moving the goalpost. We were talking about rebounds and now showing different stats. So useless to see your comments when you keep moving the narrative. Talking about rebounding then moving to pts against. I will not anymore comment on this because its like talking to a girl that brings up all the issue except the topic of discussion.

Read all my post it's defense and rebounding
You cannot separate the two, they're associated.
When one says a team is weak in rebounding it automatic logically includes defense.
It's terrible analysis to isolate a stat not within context.
And besides even in terms of rebounding the 6 world cup Asia teams averages are still lower than every other continent. This is glaring

Your line of argument isn't real basketball context . but purely legalistic simplistic single stat base .
There is a saying while a stat figure are fundamental - but so is context ... and this is where your understanding is flawed ..

I say it again everyone who knows the game knows within context Asian teams are rated low in defense and rebounding.. understand what context means and why it is fundamental to discussion to be meaningful Which your line of discussion is NOT and is meaningless

[DAdmiral]

This is what length and activity can do defensively and get extra possessions (rebounding)

https://fb.watch/bg5BQeMZ8J/

[zairex]

Read all my post it's defense and rebounding
You cannot separate the two, they're associated.
When one says a team is weak in rebounding it automatic logically includes defense.
It's terrible analysis to isolate a stat not within context.
And besides even in terms of rebounding the 6 world cup Asia teams averages are still lower than every other continent. This is glaring

Your line of argument isn't real basketball context . but purely legalistic simplistic single stat base .
There is a saying while a stat figure are fundamental - but so is context ... and this is where your understanding is flawed ..

I say it again everyone who knows the game knows within context Asian teams are rated low in defense and rebounding.. understand what context means and why it is fundamental to discussion to be meaningful Which your line of discussion is NOT and is meaningless

Give us 5 articles of reputable writers thats says Asian is weak rebounding in the last 2019 WC