Philippine PBA Trades, Releases, Sign-ups, Rumours (vol. III)

[NOiNU]

Trades are approved based on a minimum standard requirement. It doesn't have anything to do with team needs and preferences. When the standard requirement is wrong from the getgo, and the PBA is willing to admit that, then I have no problem with the Chan trade to Ginebra. But that's the problem - the PBA acted indiscriminately when they didn't approve a straight Cruz-first round pick trade last February, an effect of the CS brouhaha.

Commissioners aren't there to "rationalize" for the teams. They are there to ensure that the trade is balanced. But how does one measure balance? it's not like Marcial will look at both teams and say, "ah, the pieces fit well, Ginebra needs a shooter, Phoenix doesn't need one and would opt for a young pick." That's not how Commissioners should think.

Instead, they refer to past actions to find out if a trade is indeed equal sided. Unfortunately, in the Cruz trade, they didn't have much basis because that was the first action taken by the selection committee in their effort to clean up trade deals. Which was why Cruz was overvalued - worried about the fans' backlash. But since everyone accepted this decision as just, fair and correct, that would have served as their basis for future decisions - a binding precedent. That's how the court rules, and while they take each case individually, there's a foundation for such argument.

I am not criticizing either Ginebra or Phoenix for making this move. If both teams feel they made the right decision, that's their call. But it's the Commissioner who ultimately decides on what is actually right. There lies the rub.

I understand your point, but if you yourself think Cruz was overvalued, then you are effectively saying that that was a bad precedent. If some entity continues to make decisions using a bad precedent as basis, don't you think that's absurd? Isn't it better to forget the past mistakes and start anew?

I don't think the commissioner's office is binded to abide by the parameters of the Cruz trade. Bear in mind we are not talking about the court of law here, but a pro hoops commissioner's office.

[reamily]

u think the trade is fair.. and my standard of a fair trade is both parties agreed in principle to trade player x to player y... if there os a similar case of cs then its up to the league to nullify it in sense of league balance..

[Jay P. Mercado]

I understand your point, but if you yourself think Cruz was overvalued, then you are effectively saying that that was a bad precedent. If some entity continues to make decisions using a bad precedent as basis, don't you think that's absurd? Isn't it better to forget the past mistakes and start anew?

I don't think the commissioner's office is binded to abide by the parameters of the Cruz trade. Bear in mind we are not talking about the court of law here, but a pro hoops commissioner's office.

Then that's the problem indeed. When the pledge of a Commissioner, upon assumption of office, was the cleaning of trade deals (as his first major step) by putting up a selection committee erred from the getgo. Who's to say that the selection committee was "rectifying" their past mistake? Conveniently, the correction happened to an SMC team, the very same beneficiaries of previous lopsided trades before Marcial's time - the very same trades that he vowed to eradicate.

The question now is....which is which? How can teams in the future, when they agree on trades, come up with arrangements when you have two different perspectives? How would they handle a possible Calvin Abueva trade? Is he worth a first round pick like Chan? Is he worth a first round pick plus filli-ins like Cruz? Is he worth a first round pick, a starter and a fill-in?

And it's not fair if the PBA tells them, "just let us decide when you've reached an agreement and we'll decide from there." Teams will base their agreements with other teams based on past decisions made by the Commissioner and his committee to come up with a sensible arrangement. At this point, which one would they follow?

[NOiNU]

Then that's the problem indeed. When the pledge of a Commissioner, upon assumption of office, was the cleaning of trade deals (as his first major step) by putting up a selection committee erred from the getgo. Who's to say that the selection committee was "rectifying" their past mistake? Conveniently, the correction happened to an SMC team, the very same beneficiaries of previous lopsided trades before Marcial's time - the very same trades that he vowed to eradicate.

The question now is....which is which? How can teams in the future, when they agree on trades, come up with arrangements when you have two different perspectives? How would they handle a possible Calvin Abueva trade? Is he worth a first round pick like Chan? Is he worth a first round pick plus filli-ins like Cruz? Is he worth a first round pick, a starter and a fill-in?

And it's not fair if the PBA tells them, "just let us decide when you've reached an agreement and we'll decide from there." Teams will base their agreements with other teams based on past decisions made by the Commissioner and his committee to come up with a sensible arrangement. At this point, which one would they follow?

I think the simplest approach is this--board lets the commish do its job re trades and feel free to cry foul when they need be. Narvasa's head rolled when he pulled the CS trigger. I don't think Marcial would be any different should he follow Narvasa's footsteps, and he'd be dumb to do so.

[Jay P. Mercado]

I think the simplest approach is this--board lets the commish do its job re trades and feel free to cry foul when they need be. Narvasa's head rolled when he pulled the CS trigger. I don't think Marcial would be any different should he follow Narvasa's footsteps, and he'd be dumb to do so.

I disagree, you don't empower a Commissioner without a foundation to work on - that'll be chaotic and lead to excess subjectivity. Neither should the Commissioner be put in a situation when his job is on the line for a wrong decision made. In Narvasa's case, he made several bad decisions, the CS case serving as the last straw.

I'm all for Commissioner independence - that is the ideal scenario. Just like the NBA. But just like its American league counterpart, Silver has enough precedent to work on when making decisions. Set up the parameters first (which was supposed to be the case with the selection committee) and then, give the Commissioner the latitude to decide accordingly.

For now, we can only shake our collective heads with this new dilemma created by Marcial...

[NOiNU]

I disagree, you don't empower a Commissioner without a foundation to work on - that'll be chaotic and lead to excess subjectivity. Neither should the Commissioner be put in a situation when his job is on the line for a wrong decision made. In Narvasa's case, he made several bad decisions, the CS case serving as the last straw.

I'm all for Commissioner independence - that is the ideal scenario. Just like the NBA. But just like its American league counterpart, Silver has enough precedent to work on when making decisions. Set up the parameters first (which was supposed to be the case with the selection committee) and then, give the Commissioner the latitude to decide accordingly.

For now, we can only shake our collective heads with this new dilemma created by Marcial...

Let us agree to disagree, then. I stand by my conviction that this is a matter of trust. As long as the board trusts (hence, accepts) the commisssioner's office's judgment, then there should be no issues. Speaking of which, has anybody cried foul yet? Haven't encountered any negative writeups yet with some team official lamenting or lambasting such trade.

As for us pundits and fans, we'd always have our differing opinions on certain things no matter what. What's important is we know how to accept our differences.

[Jay P. Mercado]

Let us agree to disagree, then. I stand by my conviction that this is a matter of trust. As long as the board trusts (hence, accepts) the commisssioner's office's judgment, then there should be no issues. Speaking of which, has anybody cried foul yet? Haven't encountered any negative writeups yet with some team official lamenting or lambasting such trade.

As for us pundits and fans, we'd always have our differing opinions on certain things no matter what. What's important is we know how to accept our differences.

That trust issue was what allowed Narvasa to bring decay to the league. It's the same trust issue that has hung like a Damocles' sword on every Commissioner since Bernardino's time. What we have now is a PBA that is a shadow of its old self, and being "threatened" by a virtual minor league in the MPBL. One gives trust to a Commissioner so long as he has some form of criteria to work on. This is the evil root cause of all...and in the end, we raising these concerns are done to keep the league officials on their toes and remain non-complacent.

Thanks for the discussion....

[NOiNU]

That trust issue was what allowed Narvasa to bring decay to the league. It's the same trust issue that has hung like a Damocles' sword on every Commissioner since Bernardino's time. What we have now is a PBA that is a shadow of its old self, and being "threatened" by a virtual minor league in the MPBL. One gives trust to a Commissioner so long as he has some form of criteria to work on. This is the evil root cause of all...and in the end, we raising these concerns are done to keep the league officials on their toes and remain non-complacent.

Thanks for the discussion....

Thank you din, sir Jay....

[sajubeads]

You're right Jay, there should be some parameters before making trade. For one, which I think what is followed by NBA, the amount of salary of the players involve should be equal with the players of whom they are traded. In the Chan trade for example, Chan earns the max of 450,000, so he should be traded to a max player or a bunch of player eqauling his 450000 salary. Now question is , how about if a veteran is traded to a draft pick , how would you quantify his salary. Maybe a max player for 1st to 3rd pick, those earning 350,000 to 4-6 pick and 250,000 for other first rounder . Its difficult though to project also the draft pick order especially if the season is still onging and the draft order is not set.

[Jay P. Mercado]

You're right Jay, there should be some parameters before making trade. For one, which I think what is followed by NBA, the amount of salary of the players involve should be equal with the players of whom they are traded. In the Chan trade for example, Chan earns the max of 450,000, so he should be traded to a max player or a bunch of player eqauling his 450000 salary. Now question is , how about if a veteran is traded to a draft pick , how would you quantify his salary. Maybe a max player for 1st to 3rd pick, those earning 350,000 to 4-6 pick and 250,000 for other first rounder . Its difficult though to project also the draft pick order especially if the season is still onging and the draft order is not set.

Yes, that's a workable approach, using the salary as a way of balancing the trade. It's tangible, can be validated, and the player's value is normally commensurate to the salary given to him by his team (not all the time, though).

But the bigger dilemma is that while Chito Salud claims that the UPC (unified players' contracts) are transparent and that any team manager can look at this, the question is - is that really the only mode of compensation the player receives? Several years ago, it was proven that there was the practice of side contracts, where the official player's contract would claim a lower amount, but is actually receiving higher from another contract that's not declared. I won't be surprised if this practice continues - we still hear claims of James Yap receiving more than the maximum salary although SMC is paying for his side contract while ROS assumes his UPC, or Junemar Fajardo who unarguably deserves to be paid higher than all his teammates receiving the max.

In other words, claims of transparency may not exactly be correct. Then again, if the basis is the UPC, then that's a start. We shouldn't be expecting factual figures to come out.

There are just so many loopholes in the present league setup. Everything is dependent on the mood of the respective members of the selection committee - when the Cruz trade was submitted, everyone was conscious and wary to make things appear fair and balanced, even if it meant the opposite. But what if the Chan trade was submitted to the committee at that moment instead of the Cruz deal? Ten to one, that one-on-one trade would have been vetoed and subject for revision, simply because that was the sign of the times back then. Today, when everything has quieted down, the mood has changed, and Chan's worth has suddenly dropped lower than Cruz.

I've no solution yet on trading max or near max players for picks. Not that privy with the complex NBA rules so I can't speak authoritatively in that regard. But it's enough to say that such parameters would help the Commissioner a lot when making decisions that will ensure a certain level of fairness, parity, and league betterment.

[Tuck]

The ginebra pick is gonna probably end up at like 8.
Best case scenario they all declare.
In random order
Parks
Domingo
Tratter
Alejandro
Bolick
CJ Perez
Trevis Jackson
Mocon

I’d rather have the pick but knowing the PBA the trade was Jeff Chan for Pick and Cash.

[unstopaball12]

The Sargent trade is such an underrated move for Ginebra, TC will fully maximize him. I think with Chan aboard and with Tim Cone opting for a short rotation come playoffs this is the rotation I see.

Tenorio/Mercado
Thompson/Sargent
Brownlee/Chan
Devance/Ferrer
Slaughter/Aguilar

[reamily]

The Sargent trade is such an underrated move for Ginebra, TC will fully maximize him. I think with Chan aboard and with Tim Cone opting for a short rotation come playoffs this is the rotation I see.

Tenorio/Mercado
Thompson/Sargent
Brownlee/Chan
Devance/Ferrer
Slaughter/Aguilar

Is julian ready for bigtime i know he can defend and shoot but ginebra is a different animal.. can he relied upon consistently.. this is the red glag of him and abu tratter both very talenred but very unpolished...While taha may do more now in his spot minutes (yes everyone in global port will get their opportunity) given his experience in kia and ginebra

[JAMSKIE]

The ginebra pick is gonna probably end up at like 8.
Best case scenario they all declare.
In random order
Parks
Domingo
Tratter
Alejandro
Bolick
CJ Perez
Trevis Jackson
Mocon

I’d rather have the pick but knowing the PBA the trade was Jeff Chan for Pick and Cash.

I don't see JJ Alejandro figuring that high in the rookie draft. Alejandro would even be lucky being picked in the 1st round. I just don't see anything special in his game, and besides, he is just a guard - something which Phi. basketball has in abundance.

[thatweirdguy]

Ginebra lacked shooting and they just added Jeff Chan to their already stacked lineup without shipping anyone out. There are no players that are even close to Chan's skill in the upcoming draft. And they probably wont need to add a late pick seeing that they still have a lot of underutilized players on their roster. Their second 5 could start for a lot of teams.

How come their aren't any good shooters in the amateur ranks anymore? No the Curry wannabes don't count.