Playing basketball and politics at the same time...FIBA-Asia in its finaest...

[larongbuko]

youre such an ass vladskie boy..for once step dowm from that pedestal...feel the earth..its good for you.

[vladski]

Mojado failed!!!

I'm not sure what happened to my previous post... was it deleted???

Thank you for judging my character and since you know me pretty well.

Hanging sentence... but here's my take... You deserved it more than anyone else on here...

I never insulted you personally in my posts, yet you take this personally since you opened up this thread solely to promote your blog.
Since the issue with FIBA Asia and the SBP over Lutz and Lassiter has been discussed in this forum in many places before and has been more fruitful regarding facts and shortcomings of the involved parties, I don't see a reason to open up another thread.

You are right for the first time. There is really no reason to open a new thread with regards to lassiter's and Lutz's cases. And I really never intend to open one for that matter. It was you only who thinks that I opened a new thread about Lutz's and Lassiter's to promote my blog when in fact I never asked anyone on here to discuss in this thread what I have written in my blog. I've been a member of this forum since 2007 and been writing blogs since 2010. Never in my posts did I promote my blog nor did I linked my blog page in my signature. And even to this date, you will never find signature in my posts linking to my blog pages. You failed when you said that I opened this thread only to promote my blog. And even so, I didn't see anything wrong about that. I write blogs for pleasure, like most people do. Is linking personal Home/Web Page like blog pages constitute forum rule violation? If not, then what is your problem, Mojado?

So to me, your blog is quite underachieving to say this in a friendly way. You wanted to open up a thread to share your thoughts with us fellow readers, yet you don't want to hear a different opinion on the matter, as well as you dont allow any critics. Your direct answer is polemic and since you didn't check the link that I've posted (
http://philboxing.com/news/story-60165.html ), you are not even doing better than me.

I don't care whether I'm doing better or you are doing better coz I don't compete.

I don't have problems with anybody who critic my work as long as it is done objectively. I do have problems with people like you who don't know how to apply objectivity when doing a review on other people's work. That's the reason why you failed. You failed when you say that:

1. I didn't mention Hagop's designation in FIBA when in fact it was clearly mentioned in third Paragraph, sentence 2 on my first post.
2. I opened a thread to discuss what I have written in my blog and to promote it when in fact, in this particular thread, I was asking the forum members for their opinion on politicking in Asian Basketball.
3. You failed because this is not about my blog and
4. this is not about Lassiter's and Lutz's cases, either.
5. You failed when you got it all wrong, genius.

To put it in your very own words: You are lacking the eye for important details.
Look also to the comments by other posters in this thread and you can see what was acutally going on between Khajirian and the SBP and how the rules applied or didn't apply since Khajirian tried to harm Philippines'national-team by trying to block both players even after they were cleared which is a low-blow to me.

That was actually the reason why I came up with the idea on opening a thread about Politicking in basketball and how it ruined the beauty of the sport. And here you failed again because you said that I opened this thread for my personal gain when in fact, I never ask to discuss on here what I have written in my blog. The article was used as a mere springboard for the topic on politics in basketball. My second post clearly outlined how I intend this thread would go.

BTW, your childish answer is on the same level as Mr. Khajirian's doings during the last week.

A childish act is when a person fails to comprehend the very work he criticizes, for failure to take into account the details and facts presented. A childish act is when people like you presents false claims and twists facts to bash others. In other words, irrational.

Don't feel sorry for me, sir (Don't try to sound polite when you are clearly not), feel sorry for yourself for attacking me personally without a reason. I never intended to bash you, just wanted to correct obvious mistakes.

I'm not trying to sound polite coz I really am not. In fact, I am being sarcastic with the way I'm responding to you. So don't try to play words with me coz I am not impress with your circus act.

If you want to talk about politics in basketball, start with the PBA and why teams aren't allowing it's players to play in your national-team. That would be a good start and you may know more about the topic then I do.

I don't need your unsolicited advice. I know what I'm talking about when I started this topic. You are at lost and have shown how you failed on many occasions. I don't need to bail myself out. You need it more, genius coz you failed.

Resting the case with this post.

May you rest in peace!!!

Feel free to write what's on your mind, I won't answer to it anymore, you disqualified yourself to me with your answer.

More reason to chuckle. Disqualified myself? Are you out of your mind, genius?

Purely Kindergarten.

Kindergarten? Yeah, right. I hate to ask this.. but how about the structure of your sentences? post grad

[Eaglefan97]

The biggest problem here is that FIBA ASIA refused to acknowledge Filipino citizenship law as stated by our constitution.

Citizenship laws can be quite confusing and complicated

For my examples, I will use Philippine and US Law as these are the ones I am most familiar with. But I am sure you can extrapolate the argument and see how it can be confusing once applied to other nations' laws.

An example of complication:

Under US law, which uses jus loci, you are granted citizenship based on your location. So an American born in the Philippines by US law can elect to be a natural Filipino. But he needs to do so by his age of independence. However, it is odd because he will NOT be recognized by the Philippine government because he does not have a Filipino birth parent. He can elect to be naturalized though and HIS children will be automatically Filipinos. (i.e. MBA star Alex Compton and why he couldn't play for the national team)

Under Philippine law, which uses jus sangguini (sp?) you are AUTOMATICALLY given Filipino citizenship if any one of your parents are Filipino. Hence, even if you are born on the MOON. Or in the South Pole. Or in the friggin White House. If your parent has Filipino Citizenship, you are AUTOMATICALLY a Filipino.

So by that virtue, all you need is certification that ONE of the parents was Filipino.

Now, if the SBP didn't submit that, then it's their fault but HAGOP and FIBA ASIA company kept

They were also telling Foreign Media that it was a naturalization issue. (hence Mojado's fair but misguided assessment.) That is also why commentators mistakenly believe that the two guys are naturalized players and NOT natural born Filipinos.

Fact is, the passport issue is valid for ANY naturalization claim. HOWEVER, since the two players in question were NOT naturalized players, but rather legally naturally born Filipinos, then it cannot be applied to their status.

For example, does CHINA need to prove that Wang ZhiZhi got his passport at age 16? (heh, we can't even remember WHEN wang zhizhi was 16. I was monitoring international basketball during his youth team scandal which were never resolved.) Or does Rice University player Arsalan Kazemi to prove he got his Iran citizenship at age 16?

One thing the foreign media and fans do not know is that the local players association here in the Philippines is VERY STRICT on citizenship issues. They actually ask for more documentation than FIBA because there was a wave of pretenders in the late 90s who took jobs away from Filipinos because they were claiming to be Filipino-Foreigners and abusing this law to play in the Filipino League.

Because of the players union, we are now EXTREMELY strict on this issue. Even bloodlines and family trees are scrutinized right down to the ancestors of the players and their forefathers' citizenships. In fact, they try EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to discredit EVERY foreign born player who claims to be a Filipino. Which is why we are confident that all the players playing for the Philippines as Filipinos are indeed Filipinos by BLOOD.

[Mojado]

Thank you for sharing you unsolicited advice.

Allow me to explain to you some things that you failed to grasp in reading my article as your egoistic mind clearly has sent you to cloud 9 with your uncivil remarks.

First. before you bash on others, make sure you read and understand the entire article coz it really makes you look ridiculously stupid. Hagop's position was mentioned in my first post, third paragraph, second sentence. I preferred to call the person (Hagop) in his first name as it compliments his personality (for sounding like hayop, if you know what I mean) and that how the sarcastic sounds echoed so sweet in my ears....

Second. I was among those who asked about what documents Hagop was asking from SBP. The information that Hagop didn't specify which documents he required came directly from someone who works for the SBP. Hagop was just trying to make things difficult for Philippines as SBP believed that they have complied with the required documents for the two players as natural born Filipino citizen and not as naturalized (this matter was also discussed in my blog).

And third. with regards to whether SPB has received or not the letter-request from FIBA-Asia for the papers of the two, is also what I want to know from SBP. I suggest to you to read the full article before you open your mouth again so your posts will make sense in the future.

Lastly, this thread is all about politicking in sports, of which I ask the forum members to contribute and share their thoughts for a good discussion.

Anyway, thank you for your contribution and to your comment. You could have done better and made sense with your posts should you had tried to read the article with good intention and if you had tried to understand what I wanted to get across to readers. Instead, you opted to showcase your foolishness with your poor comprehension or may be for lack of keen eye to details. Either way, I feel so sorry for you, Sir.

Thank you for judging my character and since you know me pretty well.

I never insulted you personally in my posts, yet you take this personally since you opened up this thread solely to promote your blog.
Since the issue with FIBA Asia and the SBP over Lutz and Lassiter has been discussed in this forum in many places before and has been more fruitful regarding facts and shortcomings of the involved parties, I don't see a reason to open up another thread.

So to me, your blog is quite underachieving to say this in a friendly way. You wanted to open up a thread to share your thoughts with us fellow readers, yet you don't want to hear a different opinion on the matter, as well as you dont allow any critics. Your direct answer is polemic and since you didn't check the link that I've posted (
http://philboxing.com/news/story-60165.html ), you are not even doing better than me.
To put it in your very own words: You are lacking the eye for important details.
Look also to the comments by other posters in this thread and you can see what was acutally going on between Khajirian and the SBP and how the rules applied or didn't apply since Khajirian tried to harm Philippines'national-team by trying to block both players even after they were cleared which is a low-blow to me.
BTW, your childish answer is on the same level as Mr. Khajirian's doings during the last week.

Don't feel sorry for me, sir (Don't try to sound polite when you are clearly not), feel sorry for yourself for attacking me personally without a reason. I never intended to bash you, just wanted to correct obvious mistakes.

If you want to talk about politics in basketball, start with the PBA and why teams aren't allowing it's players to play in your national-team. That would be a good start and you may know more about the topic then I do.


Resting the case with this post.
Feel free to write what's on your mind, I won't answer to it anymore, you disqualified yourself to me with your answer. Purely Kindergarten.

[vladski]

3-119:

The list must be returned to the FIBA Secretariat two (2) months before the competition is due to start, together with the necessary documents required to prove eligibility for all the players on the list (see article 3-120 for exceptions). Failure to meet this deadline shall result in financial penalties being imposed by FIBA (as stipulated in article 3-303).
The List of Players must be completed for:
a. All age categories from U-17 upwards.
b. For all phases of competition: Qualifying Round, Semi-Final Round, and Final Round.

YHL

In that case, we are referring to the same rules where penalty is applicable with regards to document submission while I was referring to the procedure for verifying eligibility status of the players.

Another important thing to note here is that, Hagop might be telling the truth when he said that he forwarded a letter asking for documents to prove Lassiter's and Lutz's eligibility on 30 August 2011, exactly two weeks prior the tip off. I've bee very vocal about this in saying that SBP might have ignored this letter from FIBA-Asia thinking that they can get away with it since these two players have been playing in FIBA sanctioned tourneys in the last 2 -3 years. However, such moved by SBP backfired and almost cost us the chance to enter into the medal rounds, if not for the timely intervention of MVP and friends.

[Batman]

If Japan wins even by 1 tonight, this would be the scenario:

Group F
1st-China (+15, -1 = +14)
2nd-Japan (-7, +1 = -6)
3rd-Philippines (-15, +7 = -8)
4th-Jordan

Group E
1st-Iran
2nd-South Korea
3rd-Chinese-Taipei
4th-Lebanon

In short, Japan will face CT in the quarters and will surely advance in the semis to meet Iran.

In FIBA Asia where basketball is mixed with business and politics, China may intentionally give this game to Japan and have the Hayabusa face CT instead of S. Korea in the quarters.

Mark my words!

[JGX]

I don't really know from where did you get that penalty for late submission of documents as FIBA internal regulation doesn't mention anything like that.

3-119:

The list must be returned to the FIBA Secretariat two (2) months before the competition is due to start, together with the necessary documents required to prove eligibility for all the players on the list (see article 3-120 for exceptions). Failure to meet this deadline shall result in financial penalties being imposed by FIBA (as stipulated in article 3-303).
The List of Players must be completed for:
a. All age categories from U-17 upwards.
b. For all phases of competition: Qualifying Round, Semi-Final Round, and Final Round.

YHL

[macan77]

I don't really know from where did you get that penalty for late submission of documents as FIBA internal regulation doesn't mention anything like that.

If you want to get technical, it is not for late submission, genius. For your own understanding, I will refer you to the "Internal Regulations" approved by the FIBA Central Board on 3 September 2010.

The penalty, you and the media were talking about is actually administrative costs of the inquiry and penalty but not for late docs.

126. Upon discovery that a player has played in an official FIBA competition without being eligible, FIBA will initiate inquiry to establish the player's eligibility according to these Regulations.

FIBA was able to establish the eligibility of Lassi and Lutz with the docs SBP submitted to them. However, provision 127 states that:

127. The national member federation will bear the administrative costs of the inquiry provided for in 3-126 and will be liable to a fine as stipulated in article 3-303 and/or a suspension in accordance with the procedure established in articles 1-126 to 1-136.

If Lassiter and Lutz were proven to be ineligible to play, SBP and the Philippines may face another suspension from FIBA. But since the two players were okay, meaning eligible according to the papers presented by SBP to FIBA, provision 128 was applied to their case, which states, as follows:

128. In exceptional cases, the Secretary General (after consultation with the Chairman of the Legal Commission) may authorise a player to play under the status he had before the irregularity was discovered.


These are the only provisions, I suppose is applicable for this penalty in lassiter's and Lutz's cases. I am not aware of any other penalties with regards to eligibility issues. Hope this helps.

From the reports that was given, (Nardy can always correct me if I interpreted it incorrectly), Lutz and Lassiter were allowed to play not because of the section 16:

Any player with two legal nationalities or more, by birth or by naturalisation, may choose at any age the national team for which he wishes to play. Any such choice must be made in a written declaration to FIBA. This provision applies also to any player having acquired legal nationality by birth, or having the right to acquire a second nationality at birth, but who does not lay claim to this right until a given time in the future. [Note: for exceptions see articles -20 and -21].

but because of this section 21 - B which states:

b. For purposes of letter (a) above and in the event of doubts, any player claiming to have acquired a legal nationality before having reached the age of sixteen (16), without presenting the respective passport with a date of issue before the player’s sixteenth birthday, requires a decision by the Secretary General confirming that he does not fall under the restriction of letter (a) above. In taking this decision the Secretary General shall take into account the following criteria:
- the number of years during which the player has lived in the country, for the national team of which he wishes to play;
- the number of seasons during which the player has participated in domestic
competitions in the country of the national team for which he wishes to play;
- any other criteria capable of establishing a significant link between the player and the country, for the national team of which he wishes to play.

in short, they are allowed because of the approval in writing of the Sec. Gen. If this is true, then, all other players that are fil-foreigners would (might) be again questioned by any organizing committees (or Hagop) for that matter and it will repeat ad infinitum, unless the Head office will clearly have a decision regarding the two players (or players questioned in the future)

[vladski]

In a report by a newspaper, it says, that the Philippines had to pay a penalty for sending in the documents too late to FIBA. This implements, that they got the documents needed for proof. So your stuff from above with the article did not work out for Lutz and Lassiter.

I don't really know from where did you get that penalty for late submission of documents as FIBA internal regulation doesn't mention anything like that.

If you want to get technical, it is not for late submission, genius. For your own understanding, I will refer you to the "Internal Regulations" approved by the FIBA Central Board on 3 September 2010.

The penalty, you and the media were talking about is actually administrative costs of the inquiry and penalty but not for late docs.

126. Upon discovery that a player has played in an official FIBA competition without being eligible, FIBA will initiate inquiry to establish the player's eligibility according to these Regulations.

FIBA was able to establish the eligibility of Lassi and Lutz with the docs SBP submitted to them. However, provision 127 states that:

127. The national member federation will bear the administrative costs of the inquiry provided for in 3-126 and will be liable to a fine as stipulated in article 3-303 and/or a suspension in accordance with the procedure established in articles 1-126 to 1-136.

If Lassiter and Lutz were proven to be ineligible to play, SBP and the Philippines may face another suspension from FIBA. But since the two players were okay, meaning eligible according to the papers presented by SBP to FIBA, provision 128 was applied to their case, which states, as follows:

128. In exceptional cases, the Secretary General (after consultation with the Chairman of the Legal Commission) may authorise a player to play under the status he had before the irregularity was discovered.


These are the only provisions, I suppose is applicable for this penalty in lassiter's and Lutz's cases. I am not aware of any other penalties with regards to eligibility issues. Hope this helps.

[vladski]

Sorry, but if you do write a blog, make sure you got stuff right.
"Hagop" ? His name: Hagop Khajirian. What's his position? Can't find it in your blog. Insider informations? None. You got everything out of your media or twitter. What Khajirian demanded was the documentation which proves that both players received their Philippine birth certificates or passport in a young age. The SBP knows that as they received these request by FIBA Asia previously in August. SBP never talked about it, but they received it.
Now, they have to pay a penalty for being late with these documents, but finally both players recevied the "okay" by FIBA itself.
You better do your research before writing stuff,thanks.

Thank you for sharing you unsolicited advice.

Allow me to explain to you some things that you failed to grasp in reading my article as your egoistic mind clearly has sent you to cloud 9 with your uncivil remarks.

First. before you bash on others, make sure you read and understand the entire article coz it really makes you look ridiculously stupid. Hagop's position was mentioned in my first post, third paragraph, second sentence. I preferred to call the person (Hagop) in his first name as it compliments his personality (for sounding like hayop, if you know what I mean) and that how the sarcastic sounds echoed so sweet in my ears....

Second. I was among those who asked about what documents Hagop was asking from SBP. The information that Hagop didn't specify which documents he required came directly from someone who works for the SBP. Hagop was just trying to make things difficult for Philippines as SBP believed that they have complied with the required documents for the two players as natural born Filipino citizen and not as naturalized (this matter was also discussed in my blog).

And third. with regards to whether SPB has received or not the letter-request from FIBA-Asia for the papers of the two, is also what I want to know from SBP. I suggest to you to read the full article before you open your mouth again so your posts will make sense in the future.

Lastly, this thread is all about politicking in sports, of which I ask the forum members to contribute and share their thoughts for a good discussion.

Anyway, thank you for your contribution and to your comment. You could have done better and made sense with your posts should you had tried to read the article with good intention and if you had tried to understand what I wanted to get across to readers. Instead, you opted to showcase your foolishness with your poor comprehension or may be for lack of keen eye to details. Either way, I feel so sorry for you, Sir.

[2log]

you are so makulit. (hard-headed)

for the nth time, hagop insisting on receiving documents proving that lutz and lassiter obtained their filipino passports before the age of 16 is misplaced. To abide by it is to concede that Lutz and lassiter are not natural-born Filipinos in the first place.

Why blast the man for stating what Hagop Khajirian was looking for? It's true, those were the requirements that Hagop was demanding from our players. It was a logical and fair demand. I'm not sure if FIBA Asia sent queries as early as August though. Mojado, are you a Fiba insider? As media here and even interviews and tweets from our basketball federation and players show how they were all surprised by it. Marcio Lassiter and Chris Lutz have already played 3 FIBA sanctioned tournaments, which include the qualifying tournament (for the ABC) and the Asian Games.

With the papers completed and submitted though, the acting FIBA Asia secretary general should have been able to make a fair ruling and it shouldn't have reached the FIBA Geneva. Those are Hagop Khajirian's stand on the matter though and hard headed as it seams (as part of the targeted country), it's within his right to impose what he thinks is fair.

However, I did not like that after being cleared in the morning, they inform the Philippine team Lutz and Lassiter are still ineligible 15 mins before the game againts Jordan, stating the letter from Patrick Baumann was not "clear". If that had been the case they should have clarified it with FIBA World officials when they received it. Sitting on it until game time shows how they were determined on not letting the two questioned players play anyway. It's a clear harassment already and it caused the team to be confused and disheartened.

[JGX]

Surely they would need some sort of documents proving that their parent(s) were Filipino if that it how they were claiming nationality.

[DRRC]

They did not travel? They were born and raised in the U.S. and they would travel with the U.S. passport. It's all about the birth certificate.
From what I've read, Baumann gave green lights but wants the SBP to pay a penalty fee.
http://philboxing.com/news/story-60165.html

I put that as an example. The point is they would not have those documents with them now and it is almost impossible to produce them in a span of few days.
It is not the birth certificate but it is the nationality of the player at date of competition because of USA jus soli law and the Philippines jus sanguinis you can be a dual citizen. So all laws are different in different countries, FIBA respects that and they made special provisions in their rules like the article that Hagop was using BUT our players are not subject to that because all foreing born player born to a Filipino is ALWAYS considered a FILIPINO.
Dont know about the fine because again those players dont need to show those documents

[Mojado]

They are considered natural born Filipinos because of jus sanguinis which means blood born to a Filipino, hence this article that states they have to have passports by 16 years of age does not apply to them since they are Filipinos since birth. This has been the contention of the SBP and Hagop did not listen to this and just wanted to get the documents that they had passports before 16yrs of age which means the SBP may not be able to produce it eg. what if they did not have passport before they were 16yrs of age (they did not travel)

It took the SBP, Eala, MVP to give correspondents to Mr Baummann of FIBA and their lawyers to look into this matter. And they did clear said players because of the Filipino law of jus sanguinis. FIBA cleared them but FIBA asia would still not let them play stating the letter from FIBA was not clear. MVP had to call Mr Baummann and the later had to call FIBA asia officials during the Jordan game to allow the players to play. When Toroman had the clearance from FIBA asia because of the call from Mr Baummann, the 2 were put in about 7mins from the start of the game. Hence the politics of FIBA asia at its best showing the corrupt and crooked way it works. Dont know what Hagop's motivations were but it did disrupt the Philippine team for a few days. Hope this clears things if it doesnt we can call FIBA to clarify it again

They did not travel? They were born and raised in the U.S. and they would travel with the U.S. passport. It's all about the birth certificate.
From what I've read, Baumann gave green lights but wants the SBP to pay a penalty fee.

http://philboxing.com/news/story-60165.html

[DRRC]

you are so makulit. (hard-headed)

for the nth time, hagop insisting on receiving documents proving that lutz and lassiter obtained their filipino passports before the age of 16 is misplaced. To abide by it is to concede that Lutz and lassiter are not natural-born Filipinos in the first place.

the MAIN issue here is very simple but it was conveniently set aside by FIBA Asia for reasons only known to them: Is it possible for a person to OBTAIN DUAL CITIZENSHIP at the moment of birth?

the answer is a resounding YES.

In fact, US laws recognize the dual nationality of some of its citizens who have acquired such FROM BIRTH OR CHILDHOOD as long as the 2nd country of these dual citizens do not formally require them to formally renounce their US citizenship before any power or tribunal. Absent this circumstance, US laws assure that these dual citizens shall retain their US citizenship for life.

What then is the basis of the US for accepting dual citizenship acquired right after birth or at a later period? its own immigration laws which abide by internationally-accepted principles of international law. In legal parlance, you call that jus cogens. jus cogens is a norm accepted and recognized by the international community of States as a whole as a norm from WHICH NO DEROGATION IS PERMITTED and which can be modified only by a subsequent norm of general international law having the same character.

One such source of many a jus cogens norm is the 1930 Hague Convention on Conflict of Nationality Laws which provides the following rules in determining a person's nationality:

Art. 1- It is for each State to determine under its own law who are its nationals. This law shall be recognized by other States in so far as it is consistent with international conventions, international custom, and the principles of law generally recognized with regard to nationality.

Art. 2- Any question as to whether a person possesses the nationality of a particular State shall be determined in accordance with the law of that State.

So you see, we just dont bend this norm arbitrarily. but by unfairly interpreting FIBA rules to suit the whims of some people, FIBA-asia did just that. it's a good thing FIBA HQ knew better. They overruled the unfair ruling of Hagop. In the case that FIBA HQ gave us an unfavorable ruling, i believe we can even bring the case before the federal supreme court of switzerland because FIBA would have been violating basic human rights and a jus cogens norm-- matters which are very much within the ambit of any self-respecting court of law.

For the last time, Lutz and Lassiter are natural-born Filipinos. And we will keep on sending fi-foreign athletes in future FIBA competitions not only because it is completely legal, but moreso so that fairness in its rational and objectively secular conception may at least be approximated.

Yeah what he said

All Fil-foreigners will be considered natural born Filipinos
So the future of Philippine basketball will just get better and better even with the bad politics of Fiba Asia
There should be a revamp of Fiba asia after this competition. Too many corrupt and biased people in their ranks.