Playing basketball and politics at the same time...FIBA-Asia in its finaest...

[vladski]

In my latest blog entry, I have chronicled the fate of Team Pilipinas in this staging of Fiba Men's Championships in Wuhan, China. Here's the excerpt...

The suspension or the temporary restraining order issued to Lassiter and Lutz of the Philippine National Team by FIBA Asia on the eve of the tip off of the 26th FIBA Asia Championship for men in Wuhan, China which serves as a qualifying for the London Olympics, has raised concerns on how dirty is the sports politics in Asia. There are concerns from basketball fans, especially that from Philippines, that such action of FIBA-Asia is deliberate and politically motivated, in a sense that the grounds cited for such disqualification of the said players were wrong and misquoted.

Upon inquiry, it was further learned that FIBA rules were misused and misquoted by referring the two players as naturalized citizens citing FIBA rules 3.21b. The SBP argued their case before Hagop, who is the Deputy Secretary for FIBA Asia but to no avail. Hagop concluded, in spite of all the supporting papers submitted before him, that Lassiter and Lutz are ineligible to play for the Philippines for reasons cited above. Team Pilipinas was down to 10-man rotation due to the disqualification of Lassiter and Lutz.

For these two players to be able to play, Hagop demanded documents that he failed to identify. Confusions and frustrations engulfed the whole Team Pilipinas as their 3 year preparation would mean to go to waste as they will miss the services of the two key players that are essential parts of the system. System that was built around and together with them. In spite of the appeal by the SBP to FIBA-Asia, words just fell on deaf ears.

.....
One very important thing we learned from this difficult situation is that, in Asia, playing good basketball isn't always enough to get to the top. This particular tournament taught us how to play hard not only on hard court but off the court. Learning how the game of politics is played ensures survival in this part of FIBA. Good thing, we Filipinos are highly articulate and well-trained in such field.

Isn’t it amazing to see how the big boys play?

Read full article HERE... and please don't forget to leave comments.. thanks..

[vladski]

I wanted to discuss politics in Fiba-Asia but don't know where to post it. So I figured out it would be better to put it on here in Asia/Middle East sub-forum.

What do you guys think about the dirty politics going on in FIBA in general and in Asia in particular? Who's who in basketball politics? What is the situation of basketball in your country with regards to how politics is shaping it? Please note that I am talking about sport politics and not about the usual politics in government, if you know what I mean.

Let the world knows how dirty is the politics and how it destroys the beauty of the game of basketball. We fans should voice out our concerns and how we detest dirty politics in sports in general and not only in basketball.

[Mojado]

Sorry, but if you do write a blog, make sure you got stuff right.
"Hagop" ? His name: Hagop Khajirian. What's his position? Can't find it in your blog. Insider informations? None. You got everything out of your media or twitter. What Khajirian demanded was the documentation which proves that both players received their Philippine birth certificates or passport in a young age. The SBP knows that as they received these request by FIBA Asia previously in August. SBP never talked about it, but they received it.
Now, they have to pay a penalty for being late with these documents, but finally both players recevied the "okay" by FIBA itself.
You better do your research before writing stuff,thanks.

[wafable]

the commentator in todays game keeps on saying that the philippines has 3 naturalized players. the big boys are bullying philippines. come one come all.

[xin]

"What Khajirian demanded was the documentation which proves that both players received their Philippine birth certificates or passport in a young age."

What you are saying is exactly article 3.21.B which the FIBA HQ/Patrick Baumann already cleared DOES NOT APPLY to our players.

Our citizenship laws considers Lutz and Lassiter as natural-born Filipinos(jus sanguinis) and according to the eligibility rules of FIBA, dual citizens like Lutz and Lassiter fall under article 3.16 which state that “Any player with two legal nationalities or more by birth will choose at any age the national team for which he wishes to play".

Also under FIBA rules only one naturalized player is allowed per country so please correct that commentator before someone believes in what he is saying.

sana tama pinagsasabi ko trans: please correct me if i'm also misinformed

[Mojado]

What you are saying is exactly article 3.21.B which the FIBA HQ/Patrick Baumann already cleared DOES NOT APPLY to our players.

Our citizenship laws considers Lutz and Lassiter as natural-born Filipinos(jus sanguinis) and according to the eligibility rules of FIBA, dual citizens like Lutz and Lassiter fall under article 3.16 which state that “Any player with two legal nationalities or more by birth will choose at any age the national team for which he wishes to play".

Also under FIBA rules only one naturalized player is allowed per country so please correct that commentator before someone believes in what he is saying.

sana tama pinagsasabi ko trans: please correct me if i'm also misinformed

In a report by a newspaper, it says, that the Philippines had to pay a penalty for sending in the documents too late to FIBA. This implements, that they got the documents needed for proof. So your stuff from above with the article did not work out for Lutz and Lassiter.

[DRRC]

In a report by a newspaper, it says, that the Philippines had to pay a penalty for sending in the documents too late to FIBA. This implements, that they got the documents needed for proof. So your stuff from above with the article did not work out for Lutz and Lassiter.

They are considered natural born Filipinos because of jus sanguinis which means blood born to a Filipino, hence this article that states they have to have passports by 16 years of age does not apply to them since they are Filipinos since birth. This has been the contention of the SBP and Hagop did not listen to this and just wanted to get the documents that they had passports before 16yrs of age which means the SBP may not be able to produce it eg. what if they did not have passport before they were 16yrs of age (they did not travel)

It took the SBP, Eala, MVP to give correspondents to Mr Baummann of FIBA and their lawyers to look into this matter. And they did clear said players because of the Filipino law of jus sanguinis. FIBA cleared them but FIBA asia would still not let them play stating the letter from FIBA was not clear. MVP had to call Mr Baummann and the later had to call FIBA asia officials during the Jordan game to allow the players to play. When Toroman had the clearance from FIBA asia because of the call from Mr Baummann, the 2 were put in about 7mins from the start of the game. Hence the politics of FIBA asia at its best showing the corrupt and crooked way it works. Dont know what Hagop's motivations were but it did disrupt the Philippine team for a few days. Hope this clears things if it doesnt we can call FIBA to clarify it again

[alien space bats]

In a report by a newspaper, it says, that the Philippines had to pay a penalty for sending in the documents too late to FIBA. This implements, that they got the documents needed for proof. So your stuff from above with the article did not work out for Lutz and Lassiter.

you are so makulit. (hard-headed)

for the nth time, hagop insisting on receiving documents proving that lutz and lassiter obtained their filipino passports before the age of 16 is misplaced. To abide by it is to concede that Lutz and lassiter are not natural-born Filipinos in the first place.

the MAIN issue here is very simple but it was conveniently set aside by FIBA Asia for reasons only known to them: Is it possible for a person to OBTAIN DUAL CITIZENSHIP at the moment of birth?

the answer is a resounding YES.

In fact, US laws recognize the dual nationality of some of its citizens who have acquired such FROM BIRTH OR CHILDHOOD as long as the 2nd country of these dual citizens do not formally require them to formally renounce their US citizenship before any power or tribunal. Absent this circumstance, US laws assure that these dual citizens shall retain their US citizenship for life.

What then is the basis of the US for accepting dual citizenship acquired right after birth or at a later period? its own immigration laws which abide by internationally-accepted principles of international law. In legal parlance, you call that jus cogens. jus cogens is a norm accepted and recognized by the international community of States as a whole as a norm from WHICH NO DEROGATION IS PERMITTED and which can be modified only by a subsequent norm of general international law having the same character.

One such source of many a jus cogens norm is the 1930 Hague Convention on Conflict of Nationality Laws which provides the following rules in determining a person's nationality:

Art. 1- It is for each State to determine under its own law who are its nationals. This law shall be recognized by other States in so far as it is consistent with international conventions, international custom, and the principles of law generally recognized with regard to nationality.

Art. 2- Any question as to whether a person possesses the nationality of a particular State shall be determined in accordance with the law of that State.

So you see, we just dont bend this norm arbitrarily. but by unfairly interpreting FIBA rules to suit the whims of some people, FIBA-asia did just that. it's a good thing FIBA HQ knew better. They overruled the unfair ruling of Hagop. In the case that FIBA HQ gave us an unfavorable ruling, i believe we can even bring the case before the federal supreme court of switzerland because FIBA would have been violating basic human rights and a jus cogens norm-- matters which are very much within the ambit of any self-respecting court of law.

For the last time, Lutz and Lassiter are natural-born Filipinos. And we will keep on sending fi-foreign athletes in future FIBA competitions not only because it is completely legal, but moreso so that fairness in its rational and objectively secular conception may at least be approximated.

[DRRC]

you are so makulit. (hard-headed)

for the nth time, hagop insisting on receiving documents proving that lutz and lassiter obtained their filipino passports before the age of 16 is misplaced. To abide by it is to concede that Lutz and lassiter are not natural-born Filipinos in the first place.

the MAIN issue here is very simple but it was conveniently set aside by FIBA Asia for reasons only known to them: Is it possible for a person to OBTAIN DUAL CITIZENSHIP at the moment of birth?

the answer is a resounding YES.

In fact, US laws recognize the dual nationality of some of its citizens who have acquired such FROM BIRTH OR CHILDHOOD as long as the 2nd country of these dual citizens do not formally require them to formally renounce their US citizenship before any power or tribunal. Absent this circumstance, US laws assure that these dual citizens shall retain their US citizenship for life.

What then is the basis of the US for accepting dual citizenship acquired right after birth or at a later period? its own immigration laws which abide by internationally-accepted principles of international law. In legal parlance, you call that jus cogens. jus cogens is a norm accepted and recognized by the international community of States as a whole as a norm from WHICH NO DEROGATION IS PERMITTED and which can be modified only by a subsequent norm of general international law having the same character.

One such source of many a jus cogens norm is the 1930 Hague Convention on Conflict of Nationality Laws which provides the following rules in determining a person's nationality:

Art. 1- It is for each State to determine under its own law who are its nationals. This law shall be recognized by other States in so far as it is consistent with international conventions, international custom, and the principles of law generally recognized with regard to nationality.

Art. 2- Any question as to whether a person possesses the nationality of a particular State shall be determined in accordance with the law of that State.

So you see, we just dont bend this norm arbitrarily. but by unfairly interpreting FIBA rules to suit the whims of some people, FIBA-asia did just that. it's a good thing FIBA HQ knew better. They overruled the unfair ruling of Hagop. In the case that FIBA HQ gave us an unfavorable ruling, i believe we can even bring the case before the federal supreme court of switzerland because FIBA would have been violating basic human rights and a jus cogens norm-- matters which are very much within the ambit of any self-respecting court of law.

For the last time, Lutz and Lassiter are natural-born Filipinos. And we will keep on sending fi-foreign athletes in future FIBA competitions not only because it is completely legal, but moreso so that fairness in its rational and objectively secular conception may at least be approximated.

Yeah what he said

All Fil-foreigners will be considered natural born Filipinos
So the future of Philippine basketball will just get better and better even with the bad politics of Fiba Asia
There should be a revamp of Fiba asia after this competition. Too many corrupt and biased people in their ranks.

[Mojado]

They are considered natural born Filipinos because of jus sanguinis which means blood born to a Filipino, hence this article that states they have to have passports by 16 years of age does not apply to them since they are Filipinos since birth. This has been the contention of the SBP and Hagop did not listen to this and just wanted to get the documents that they had passports before 16yrs of age which means the SBP may not be able to produce it eg. what if they did not have passport before they were 16yrs of age (they did not travel)

It took the SBP, Eala, MVP to give correspondents to Mr Baummann of FIBA and their lawyers to look into this matter. And they did clear said players because of the Filipino law of jus sanguinis. FIBA cleared them but FIBA asia would still not let them play stating the letter from FIBA was not clear. MVP had to call Mr Baummann and the later had to call FIBA asia officials during the Jordan game to allow the players to play. When Toroman had the clearance from FIBA asia because of the call from Mr Baummann, the 2 were put in about 7mins from the start of the game. Hence the politics of FIBA asia at its best showing the corrupt and crooked way it works. Dont know what Hagop's motivations were but it did disrupt the Philippine team for a few days. Hope this clears things if it doesnt we can call FIBA to clarify it again

They did not travel? They were born and raised in the U.S. and they would travel with the U.S. passport. It's all about the birth certificate.
From what I've read, Baumann gave green lights but wants the SBP to pay a penalty fee.

http://philboxing.com/news/story-60165.html

[DRRC]

They did not travel? They were born and raised in the U.S. and they would travel with the U.S. passport. It's all about the birth certificate.
From what I've read, Baumann gave green lights but wants the SBP to pay a penalty fee.
http://philboxing.com/news/story-60165.html

I put that as an example. The point is they would not have those documents with them now and it is almost impossible to produce them in a span of few days.
It is not the birth certificate but it is the nationality of the player at date of competition because of USA jus soli law and the Philippines jus sanguinis you can be a dual citizen. So all laws are different in different countries, FIBA respects that and they made special provisions in their rules like the article that Hagop was using BUT our players are not subject to that because all foreing born player born to a Filipino is ALWAYS considered a FILIPINO.
Dont know about the fine because again those players dont need to show those documents

[JGX]

Surely they would need some sort of documents proving that their parent(s) were Filipino if that it how they were claiming nationality.

[2log]

you are so makulit. (hard-headed)

for the nth time, hagop insisting on receiving documents proving that lutz and lassiter obtained their filipino passports before the age of 16 is misplaced. To abide by it is to concede that Lutz and lassiter are not natural-born Filipinos in the first place.

Why blast the man for stating what Hagop Khajirian was looking for? It's true, those were the requirements that Hagop was demanding from our players. It was a logical and fair demand. I'm not sure if FIBA Asia sent queries as early as August though. Mojado, are you a Fiba insider? As media here and even interviews and tweets from our basketball federation and players show how they were all surprised by it. Marcio Lassiter and Chris Lutz have already played 3 FIBA sanctioned tournaments, which include the qualifying tournament (for the ABC) and the Asian Games.

With the papers completed and submitted though, the acting FIBA Asia secretary general should have been able to make a fair ruling and it shouldn't have reached the FIBA Geneva. Those are Hagop Khajirian's stand on the matter though and hard headed as it seams (as part of the targeted country), it's within his right to impose what he thinks is fair.

However, I did not like that after being cleared in the morning, they inform the Philippine team Lutz and Lassiter are still ineligible 15 mins before the game againts Jordan, stating the letter from Patrick Baumann was not "clear". If that had been the case they should have clarified it with FIBA World officials when they received it. Sitting on it until game time shows how they were determined on not letting the two questioned players play anyway. It's a clear harassment already and it caused the team to be confused and disheartened.

[vladski]

Sorry, but if you do write a blog, make sure you got stuff right.
"Hagop" ? His name: Hagop Khajirian. What's his position? Can't find it in your blog. Insider informations? None. You got everything out of your media or twitter. What Khajirian demanded was the documentation which proves that both players received their Philippine birth certificates or passport in a young age. The SBP knows that as they received these request by FIBA Asia previously in August. SBP never talked about it, but they received it.
Now, they have to pay a penalty for being late with these documents, but finally both players recevied the "okay" by FIBA itself.
You better do your research before writing stuff,thanks.

Thank you for sharing you unsolicited advice.

Allow me to explain to you some things that you failed to grasp in reading my article as your egoistic mind clearly has sent you to cloud 9 with your uncivil remarks.

First. before you bash on others, make sure you read and understand the entire article coz it really makes you look ridiculously stupid. Hagop's position was mentioned in my first post, third paragraph, second sentence. I preferred to call the person (Hagop) in his first name as it compliments his personality (for sounding like hayop, if you know what I mean) and that how the sarcastic sounds echoed so sweet in my ears....

Second. I was among those who asked about what documents Hagop was asking from SBP. The information that Hagop didn't specify which documents he required came directly from someone who works for the SBP. Hagop was just trying to make things difficult for Philippines as SBP believed that they have complied with the required documents for the two players as natural born Filipino citizen and not as naturalized (this matter was also discussed in my blog).

And third. with regards to whether SPB has received or not the letter-request from FIBA-Asia for the papers of the two, is also what I want to know from SBP. I suggest to you to read the full article before you open your mouth again so your posts will make sense in the future.

Lastly, this thread is all about politicking in sports, of which I ask the forum members to contribute and share their thoughts for a good discussion.

Anyway, thank you for your contribution and to your comment. You could have done better and made sense with your posts should you had tried to read the article with good intention and if you had tried to understand what I wanted to get across to readers. Instead, you opted to showcase your foolishness with your poor comprehension or may be for lack of keen eye to details. Either way, I feel so sorry for you, Sir.

[vladski]

In a report by a newspaper, it says, that the Philippines had to pay a penalty for sending in the documents too late to FIBA. This implements, that they got the documents needed for proof. So your stuff from above with the article did not work out for Lutz and Lassiter.

I don't really know from where did you get that penalty for late submission of documents as FIBA internal regulation doesn't mention anything like that.

If you want to get technical, it is not for late submission, genius. For your own understanding, I will refer you to the "Internal Regulations" approved by the FIBA Central Board on 3 September 2010.

The penalty, you and the media were talking about is actually administrative costs of the inquiry and penalty but not for late docs.

126. Upon discovery that a player has played in an official FIBA competition without being eligible, FIBA will initiate inquiry to establish the player's eligibility according to these Regulations.

FIBA was able to establish the eligibility of Lassi and Lutz with the docs SBP submitted to them. However, provision 127 states that:

127. The national member federation will bear the administrative costs of the inquiry provided for in 3-126 and will be liable to a fine as stipulated in article 3-303 and/or a suspension in accordance with the procedure established in articles 1-126 to 1-136.

If Lassiter and Lutz were proven to be ineligible to play, SBP and the Philippines may face another suspension from FIBA. But since the two players were okay, meaning eligible according to the papers presented by SBP to FIBA, provision 128 was applied to their case, which states, as follows:

128. In exceptional cases, the Secretary General (after consultation with the Chairman of the Legal Commission) may authorise a player to play under the status he had before the irregularity was discovered.


These are the only provisions, I suppose is applicable for this penalty in lassiter's and Lutz's cases. I am not aware of any other penalties with regards to eligibility issues. Hope this helps.