Vogel a cheater ?

[nardy]

I do not want to get into an argument but I would just like to share my thoughts.

I do understand the complaints regarding Naturalized Players but I think it is a way to balance the field and give a semblance of chance to teams who are lacking in height versus countries who are gifted with height. Like us in the Philippines, genetically a full-blooded Filipino is naturally lacking in height to be honest. And a lot of countries actually are in the same predicament. Actually back in the 1960's and 1970's there was a World Championship for players under 6 feet but said tournament did not last long for lack of sponsors. Also what do we do to countries like the US and Australia, they are countries of migrants. If you look at it almost all of the ancestry of their citizenry are originally Naturalized Citizens.

But one has to remember basketball is a team sport and there are 5 players in the court. A single player even though how good he is can only do so much. Even the Greatest Basketball player, Michael Jordan learned that he could not do it alone and when he started passing that was the time the Chicago Bulls started winning championships. Another thing even if one team has a naturalized player, all the other teams have an opportunity to scout him and develop ways to contain him.

[thadzonline]

no man i think vogel is smart enough to know that Iran is not a smart enough team to kick out for a three during a fast break i dt think it would even occur to them to pass to the outside with the basket directly in their face but in their case they shouldnt because they are not that good of a 3pt shooting team in the 1st place they keep shooting and catching offensive rebounds they are pretty consistent with their 3pt shooting(around25-30%) so to go on with the fast break would be much better for them ....i also missed out when vogel went outside with the score 21-19 so thats 3 posessions with the same mistake(vogel running outside even though the center should be under the basket) ...........when vogel went out on mahdys penetrations on 2 occasions , i saw one where abdelnour had already recovered on him and the other where brian beshara did so all vogel had to do was to stay on haddadi ....im sorry i just cant believe vogel is that bad of a player ...it looks too fishy to me

I respect your opinion. I just don't think the video is conclusive. I feel sad your team lost to Iran, but I also think Iran deserves some respect. After all, it's a game. Let's be true gentlemen in the spirit of true sportsmanship

[karim]

hey mohsena can u plz tell me the difference between the Iran NT of 2003-2005 and the one of last year ...a few years ago Iran used to always be consistent and come in 5th or 6th behind teams like japan,korea,qatar and definitely lebanon ....what changed last year ? im curious to know because i looked at the roster the players stayed the same including 3 players which didnt play last year and ur coach keeps saying their from the best ...its kind of weird Iran always comes in 5th or 6th but when its key players got injured , they came in 1st ?(2nd if china was playing) so what are the differences beween the team of 2005 which lost to qatar by 22 and to korea by 12 in the semi final clinching game and even to japan on 5th-6th position game and the one of last year ? and i saw haddadi on the 2005 roster but did he used to play back than ? and was he good a the age of 20 ?

[daniab]

hey mohsena can u plz tell me the difference between the Iran NT of 2003-2005 and the one of last year ...a few years ago Iran used to always be consistent and come in 5th or 6th behind teams like japan,korea,qatar and definitely lebanon ....what changed last year ? im curious to know because i looked at the roster the players stayed the same including 3 players which didnt play last year and ur coach keeps saying their from the best ...its kind of weird Iran always comes in 5th or 6th but when its key players got injured , they came in 1st ?(2nd if china was playing) so what are the differences beween the team of 2005 which lost to qatar by 22 and to korea by 12 in the semi final clinching game and even to japan on 5th-6th position game and the one of last year ? and i saw haddadi on the 2005 roster but did he used to play back than ? and was he good a the age of 20 ?

karim,i respect what did u say or at least what ur trying to say...iran won and thats it..lets go ahead...2009 is close to us and we must take our revenge (the basketball one)...iran is working in the right way...in 2003-2005 haddadi was young,,,now hes senior and hes doing great..he was the key for the win against leb in the finals and the coach havent had any kind of solutions....iran is not unbeatable and they are not better than us ...thats for me..we have talents..we have shooters..we have a basic..we just need a good coach with preparation...at least 1 or 2 months specific for the NT...with some tall players ...and thats it..u will see by then that the win is in our pocket...vogel is not a cheater..i doubt..the fact is that vogel disapoint us and he didnt do what he must do as a naturalized player...and concerning mohsen i dont know why he keep insisting on the same point..naturalizing is cheating while its a right given by the Fiba...cheating is naturalizing many players and giving them the local passport...not naturalizing one player...usually the country who use this naturalizing systeam have a prob on 1 pos...this is the case of leb...if we took the case of jordan...they naturalized a player and they didnt make any impact out there why ? bcz they dont have players to win as lebanon...we have a great team but we lack a center..we naturalized a center and what happened ? we made the WC 2 times !!!!!! this is the difference !!

[karim]

hmm yes daniab ...but im not trying to make a point here , just asking mohsena a few curiousity questions since he knows the best abt his NT ...what changed between the Iran NT of 2005 and 2006 since in 2006 it was their 1st time in the top 4 ...is it just the development of haddadi and the arrival of the new coach toroman or r there any additional players(even though the roster looks the same between 2005 and 2007)...and how was haddadi,s performance in asian championship 2005 ? hopefully mohsena will answer me by 2morrow... :>

[J-Mart]

from the video I saw, cant really blame Vogel but the lebanese guards. They couldnt contain the driving iranins, Vogel was forced to help, leaving Haddadi alone. The video doesnt show his teammate helping Vogel much. Vogel cant body Haddadi, he is too strong, then, of course, Joe will give him space and bet he will miss the jumper.

IMO its hard to believe an athlete will throw away a Olympic qualifying game on purpose. Wont believe until I see some clear proof of it.

[Charbel Sakr]

Man, I'm going to be sounding as if I support Iran against Lebanon (which i'm not) but Haddadi played a much better game than Vogel and he basically dominated him.
Why did Haddadi play better than Vogel? Here is my personal opinion why he did:
1) Haddadi is a hustler. He was going after every rebound, while Vogel looked like he didn't have it in him.
2) Haddadi last year was 22 years old while Vogel is 34. Age plays a big difference in this regard (physical fitness, stamina, etc).
3) Lebanon's game in the semifinal (one day before the final against Iran) was against Korea and it was very intense and physically tiring since the game went down to the wire till the last second (Lebanon won 76-74).
4) U guys have to remember that we abuse Vogel. We don't give the guy a chance to rest and expect him to play for 40 minutes every game throughout the whole tournament. Defiinitely this is going to affect him sooner or later and it unfortunately showed in the final.

I do agree that Vogel in some situations looked like he was preferring to move away from Haddadi and not face him. In the video Haddadi was going up for a dunk and instead of Vogel trying to block or foul him he moved away. The case ur talking about is located at 3:40 when Iran is going on a fast break and instead of Vogel going towards the basket he seemed to be going to defend player no. 10 on the Iranian team. I don't know why he chose to do so but I don't think that he cheated or pretended not to give it all he got.

U guys have to remember that if it wasn't for Vogel, imo Lebanon wouldn't have qualified to the World Championships in 2002 or 2006.
Vogel scored the winning basket against France in the 2006 World Chmampionships and he has done alot for Lebanese basketball.
I don't think he deserves to be treated in this way.
Unfortunately here in Lebanon when a team is winning we support it and are say it's the best. But one loss like in the Asian Championship Final and we start blaming the players or coach cuz we don't accept losing (Even though I do believe that the main reason why we lost the final against Iran, other than they simply outplayed us is because we were missing a key player by the name of Ali Mahmoud)

Last but not least, i'm with the decision that Vogel should retire from our NT cuz his prime days are over but at least show the guy some respect.

Peace

hey i dont like speeches especially long ones like this here. I am just interested to see what you think about what you have seen in this video, nothing else.

I think its obvious that Vogel has played like a HS kid whose playing his first big game. There are some basketball fundamentals that im sure that joe knows but in this video he looks like a HS kid like i said (with his movement and not performance i mean)

Is vogel involved in a game fixing scandal?? or is it just fatique or maybe just several bad descisions in 1 game?? honestly i dont know but in all cases i dont want it to be the first case and if it is, wish James Naismith's soul haunt Vogel forever!

[karim]

vogel missed a layup under the basket and on the same play he didnt go under on the fast break but went and stood outside ..this was when the score was 52-49....the shot he missed is unbelievable ..all alone under the basket but its kind of like he hit it hard on the board on purpose so it wouldnt go in and the beginning of the 4th quartar he took a shot ...it was clear he was aiming to hit it hard on the back rim i dont know but someone who has the game taped and watched his every move can see that he is trying to lose on purpose and he didnt want it to show in his stats so he scored all his pts in the 1s half only 2pts in the 2nd half.... and he wasnt even making an effort either he takes shots(which looks like he is missing on purpose) or gives outside passes to much weaker players like balaa and abdelnour when he is under the basket and should try getting haddadi to get his 5th foul....

[mohsena2631]

hey mohsena can u plz tell me the difference between the Iran NT of 2003-2005 and the one of last year ...a few years ago Iran used to always be consistent and come in 5th or 6th behind teams like japan,korea,qatar and definitely lebanon ....what changed last year ? im curious to know because i looked at the roster the players stayed the same including 3 players which didnt play last year and ur coach keeps saying their from the best ...its kind of weird Iran always comes in 5th or 6th but when its key players got injured , they came in 1st ?(2nd if china was playing) so what are the differences beween the team of 2005 which lost to qatar by 22 and to korea by 12 in the semi final clinching game and even to japan on 5th-6th position game and the one of last year ? and i saw haddadi on the 2005 roster but did he used to play back than ? and was he good a the age of 20 ?

Iran is growing up in many sports and Basketball is one of them. in general because government take it serious.

but in Basketball it is all about Mash'houn brothers. (Mahmoud Mash'houn is head of iranian federation and Reza Mash'houn is manager of national teams)

before 2002 (when Ghazanfari was head of federation) Basketball was a 4th class sport in Iran with no achievement (except 1951 Asian Games bronze and 4th place in 1993 Asian champs) but now basketball is a 2nd class sport with a better budget !

Iran always has decent teams but i believe the biggest problem was lack of reliance, Asian Games bronze medal changed the mind of iranian players. they believe what they can do !

even in Asian Games in quarterfinal match, Japan was really close to beat (and eliminate) Iran but Kamrani (reserve PG at that moment) saved Iran with his unbelievable 3 pts shoot in last minute.

in 2005, Iran has a strong team (Iran won WABA title in 2004 and 2005 in Beirut and Tehran) but Bosnjak destroyed the team when he leaved iran just few days before the tournament. Iran played in Qatar without head coach ! Iran had mentally problems against Qatar and Korea (they already eliminate Iran in 2003 edition) but everybody think if we had a coach we could beat Korea in last quarterfinal match.

in DOHA 2006, we had our best team. but Toroman missed 6 (not 3) of these players ! 3 injury, 2 suspension and 1 retirement. he forced to use younger players (the core of junior team at 2002 and 2004) like Sahakian and Davari. they played their first national matches in Tokushima !

-------------------------------------------
consider Haddadi, he was a bad boy ! he missed two years of his career beacause of that ! but after his second return, he changed his personality, and now he is not a bad boy ! he changed his way of thinking and trained very well for Asian 2007.

[Khalid80]

consider Haddadi, he was a bad boy ! he missed two years of his career beacause of that ! but after his second return, he changed his personality, and now he is not a bad boy ! he changed his way of thinking and trained very well for Asian 2007.

R u referring to the serious injury that Haddadi sustained which could have ended his career after he punched/kicked (can't remember which one ) and broke the glass door?

[mohsena2631]

R u referring to the serious injury that Haddadi sustained which could have ended his career after he punched/kicked (can't remember which one ) and broke the glass door?

Yes, it even could have ended his life ! I was there, he was absolutely lucky to still alive !

[Khalid80]

hey i dont like speeches especially long ones like this here. I am just interested to see what you think about what you have seen in this video, nothing else.

I think its obvious that Vogel has played like a HS kid whose playing his first big game. There are some basketball fundamentals that im sure that joe knows but in this video he looks like a HS kid like i said (with his movement and not performance i mean)

Is vogel involved in a game fixing scandal?? or is it just fatique or maybe just several bad descisions in 1 game?? honestly i dont know but in all cases i dont want it to be the first case and if it is, wish James Naismith's soul haunt Vogel forever!

Man think about it logically.
What does Vogel gain from a game fixing scandal??
Money? (he's got plenty of it)
Does he hate or have anything against Lebanon? (I don't think so, he's been living here for almost 10 years and he personally said once that it's one of the greatest countries he's lived in)
Do u think that Vogel doesn't want to play in the Olympics or doesn't want Lebanon to qualify to the Olympics? (It's every players' dream to play in such a great event)
That's why I just honestly believe he had a bad game and probably couldn't give everything he got cuz he was fatigued from the semi-final against Korea including some bad decisions from his behalf.

[Charbel Sakr]

Man think about it logically.
What does Vogel gain from a game fixing scandal??
Money? (he's got plenty of it)
Does he hate or have anything against Lebanon? (I don't think so, he's been living here for almost 10 years and he personally said once that it's one of the greatest countries he's lived in)
Do u think that Vogel doesn't want to play in the Olympics or doesn't want Lebanon to qualify to the Olympics? (It's every players' dream to play in such a great event)
That's why I just honestly believe he had a bad game and probably couldn't give everything he got cuz he was fatigued from the semi-final against Korea including some bad decisions from his behalf.

the fatique part sounds logical (i said b4) as for the money part mmm he got plenty?? how much?? he might still want more haha

but anyways if he didnt get paid for this, its probably bcoz he was tired, unfocused, out-hustled....

[joesmoove059]

I can't wait for the next FIBA asia championships. a lot of arguments will again be heating up in this forum once again.