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jesronne
06-14-2009, 11:02 AM
this is confirmed by ISNA, but it is still a tryout
http://www.isna.ir/ISNA/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-1355867

he even may play in Universiade.

anyway, he chose the worst possible day to come to Iran ! :(

God Bless Our Country :(

iran will recover... dont worry... iran just need an iron hand... i am wondering if the US have some involvement about this trouble in iran... :rolleyes:

mohsena2631
06-14-2009, 02:49 PM
iran will recover... dont worry... iran just need an iron hand... i am wondering if the US have some involvement about this trouble in iran... :rolleyes:

what are you talk about ? Recover from What ? which Iran need an iron hand ? government or the people ?

people are very angry because of voterigging, they cannot accept a monkey, a liar as a president for another 4 years :mad:

and I am one of these people

zouz
06-14-2009, 03:04 PM
what are you talk about ? Recover from What ? which Iran need an iron hand ? government or the people ?

people are very angry because of voterigging, they cannot accept a monkey, a liar as a president for another 4 years :mad:

and I am one of these people

i was rooting for mousawi but i really feel there was some cheating in theses elections..unfortunately Najad won:(..anyway i hope the best for Iran

SOLO
06-14-2009, 03:27 PM
i was rooting for mousawi but i really feel there was some cheating in theses elections..unfortunately Najad won:(..anyway i hope the best for Iran

Duh@! always we are people in this area of this wide world when our man looses we say cheating !!! what the hell is that ......:mad:
The best won and that's it , cheating by 63% win !? hehe
well it's not the right site to discuss such things :)

mohsena2631
06-14-2009, 04:06 PM
Duh@! always we are people in this area of this wide world when our man looses we say cheating !!! what the hell is that ......:mad:
The best won and that's it , cheating by 63% win !? hehe
well it's not the right site to discuss such things :)

that was not just cheating, that was jugglery. there is some clear evidence, I don't write them because this is not a right site as you said.

Mousavi won the true election by a wide margin. but Mahmoud the monkey stole the votes and wrote what they want as the official results.

marc333
06-14-2009, 04:37 PM
that was not just cheating, that was jugglery. there is some clear evidence, I don't write them because this is not a right site as you said.

Mousavi won the true election by a wide margin. but Mahmoud the monkey stole the votes and wrote what they want as the official results.

I agree 100% Mousawi must have been elected, it is clear there was cheating.
I am sure that the majority of Iranian people is moderate, not extremist like Ahmadenijad...
I hope the truth will be revealed some day..good luck

zouz
06-15-2009, 09:24 AM
Duh@! always we are people in this area of this wide world when our man looses we say cheating !!! what the hell is that ......:mad:
The best won and that's it , cheating by 63% win !? hehe
well it's not the right site to discuss such things :)

ur funny really...when bachar l2asad gets 95% of the votes or when husny moubarak gets elected again by same percentage do u think that this is really the choice of the people..GET REAL..in middle east all sort of elections are fake..the word election is just a propaganda to show the world that there is democracy but unfortunately there isn't..DUH:rolleyes:

TrueBluePinoy
06-15-2009, 12:07 PM
Iran supreme leader orders probe of election fraud



TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's supreme leader ordered Monday an investigation into allegations of election fraud, marking a stunning turnaround by the country's most powerful figure and offering hope to opposition forces who have waged street clashes to protest the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

State television quoted Ayatollah Ali Khamenei directing a high-level clerical panel, the Guardian Council, to look into charges by pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, who has said he is the rightful winner of Friday's presidential election.

The decision comes after Mousavi wrote a letter appealing to the Guardian Council and met Sunday with Khamenei, who holds almost limitless power over Iranian affairs. Such an election probe by the 12-member council is uncharted territory and it not immediately clear how it would proceed or how long it would take.

Election results must be authorized by the council, composed of clerics closely allied with the unelected supreme leader. All three of Ahmadinejad's challengers in the election — Mousavi and two others — have made public allegations of fraud after results showed the president winning by a 2-to-1 margin.

"Issues must be pursued through a legal channel," state TV quoted Khamenei as saying. The supreme leader said he has "insisted that the Guardian Council carefully probe this letter."

The day after the election, Khamenei urged the nation to unite behind Ahmadinejad and called the result a "divine assessment."

The results touched off three days of clashes — the worst unrest in Tehran in a decade. Protesters set fires and battled anti-riot police, including a clash overnight at Tehran University after 3,000 students gathered to oppose the election results.

One of Mousavi's Web sites said a student protester was killed early Monday during clashes with plainclothes hard-liners in Shiraz, southern Iran. But there was no independent confirmation of the report. There also have been unconfirmed reports of unrest breaking out in other cities across Iran.

Security forces also have struck back with targeted arrests of pro-reform activists and blocks on text messaging and pro-Mousavi Web sites used to rally his supporters.

A top Mousavi aide, Ali Reza Adeli, told The Associated Press that a rally planned for later Monday was delayed. Iran's Interior Ministry rejected a request from Mousavi to hold the rally and warned any defiance would be "illegal," state radio said.

But one of Mousavi's Web sites still accessible in Iran said Mousavi and another candidate, Mahdi Karroubi, planned to walk through Tehran streets to appeal for calm. A third candidate, the conservative Mohsen Rezaei, has also alleged irregularities in the voting.

State TV quoted Khamenei urging Mousavi to try to keep the violence from escalating and saying "it is necessary that activities are done with dignity."

Mousavi, who served as prime minister during the 1980s, has also threatened to hold a sit-in protest at the mausoleum of the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, founder of the 1979 Islamic Revolution. Such an act would place authorities in a difficult spot: embarrassed by a demonstration at the sprawling shrine south of Tehran, but possibly unwilling to risk clashes at the hallowed site.

Overnight, police and hard-line militia stormed the campus at the city's biggest university, ransacking dormitories and arresting dozens of students angry over what they say was mass election fraud.

The nighttime gathering of about 3,000 students at dormitories of Tehran University started with students chanting "Death to the dictator." But it quickly erupted into clashes as students threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at police, who fought back with tear gas and plastic bullets, a 25-year-old student who witnessed the fighting told The Associated Press. He would only give one name, Akbar, out of fears for his safety.

The students set a truck and other vehicles on fire and hurled stones and bricks at the police, he said. Hard-line militia volunteers loyal to the Revolutionary Guard stormed the dormitories, ransacking student rooms and smashing computers and furniture with axes and wooden sticks, Akbar said.

Before leaving around 4 a.m., the police took away memory cards and computer software material, Akbar said, adding that dozens of students were arrested.

He said many students suffered bruises, cuts and broken bones in the scuffling and that there was still smoldering garbage on the campus by midmorning but that the situation had calmed down.

"Many students are now leaving to go home to their families, they are scared," he said. "But others are staying. The police and militia say they will be back and arrest any students they see."

"I want to stay because they beat us and we won't retreat," he added.

Tehran University was the site of serious clashes against student-led protests in 1999 and is one of the nerve centers of the pro-reform movement.

After dark Sunday, Ahmadinejad opponents shouted their opposition from Tehran's rooftops. Cries of "Death to the dictator!" and "Allahu Akbar!" — God is great — echoed across the capital. The protest bore deep historic resonance — it was how the leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini asked the country to unite against the Western-backed shah 30 years earlier.

Amnesty International criticized Iran Sunday for blocking media and Internet sites. It said on Saturday, access to social networking sites was blocked, as was access to a range of online news services. Many of these outlets carried reports which raised concerns that the conduct of the election was flawed and results had been rigged, Amnesty said.

"Instead of instituting an information clampdown, including by blocking video sharing social networking sites like YouTube and Facebook; along with a handful of online news sites, the authorities should openly address the concerns and criticisms clearly expressed by so many," said Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui, the deputy director of Amnesty's Middle East and North Africa Program.

Amnesty called on Iranian authorities to ensure that newspapers linked to other presidential candidates are permitted to carry the statements of those candidates.

In Moscow, the Iranian Embassy said Ahmadinejad has put off a visit to Russia, and it is unclear whether he will come at all. Ahmadinejad had been expected to travel to the Russian city of Yekaterinburg and meet on Monday with President Dmitry Medvedev on the sidelines of a regional summit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_election

LuDux
06-15-2009, 08:01 PM
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_disputed_election.html
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/iranelect_06_15/i36_19379725.jpg
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/iranelect_06_15/i38_19379493.jpg

Jan van Grabski
06-15-2009, 09:55 PM
i watched some videos where military is shooting people. this is very disturbing. brothers raising guns against brothers. I do not know much about internal affairs in iran, but clearly there is something deeply wrong. My sympathy goes out to iranian people.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=26415347001

mohsena2631
06-16-2009, 11:17 AM
i watched some videos where military is shooting people. this is very disturbing. brothers raising guns against brothers. I do not know much about internal affairs in iran, but clearly there is something deeply wrong. My sympathy goes out to iranian people.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=26415347001

that was a peaceful rally , but at the end When most of the crowd left, Basiji bastards killed 7 innocents :mad: RIP :(

now the situation is going out of control ! :(

BlacKOEIsle
06-16-2009, 12:57 PM
that was a peaceful rally , but at the end When most of the crowd left, Basiji bastards killed 7 innocents :mad: RIP :(

now the situation is going out of control ! :(


Unbelievable...........

mvblair
06-16-2009, 04:01 PM
Mohensa, I hope you're safe, man. I hope all of you Iranians are safe.

This is an awful situation. I have seen no evidence of vote-rigging, but for some reason, it seems obvious that there was "jugglery," as Mohensa said. The situation is terrible.

What is worse is that the police probably don't understand what is going on, or that the police can't do anything about it. They're told to "go to work" and that's what they do.

mohsena2631
06-17-2009, 10:22 AM
What is worse is that the police probably don't understand what is going on, or that the police can't do anything about it. They're told to "go to work" and that's what they do.

The police is not the problem, they are unarmed. the problem is Basij and Hezbollah ! they are truly wild , some of them are not even Iranian !



This is an awful situation. I have seen no evidence of vote-rigging, but for some reason, it seems obvious that there was "jugglery," as Mohensa said. The situation is terrible.

a very easy evidence !

http://www.ayandenews.com/files/fa/news/1388/3/27/12745_594.jpg

according to this screenshot :

@9:47am

Total votes 30,506,422
AN: 19,761,433 / 64.78%
Mousavi: 9,841,056 / 32.26%
Rezaei: 633,048 / 2.08%
Karroubi: 270,885 / 0.89%

@1:53pm

Total votes: 34,377,493
AN: 21,781,391 / 63.36%
Mousavi: 11,709,391 / 34.06%
Rezaei: 587,913 / 1.71%
Karroubi: 298,798 / 0.87%

this screenshot showing Mohsen Rezaei having 633,048 votes at 09:47 and 587,913 votes at 13:53 !!!!!!!!! a decrease of 45,135 votes over a four-hour period !!!!!

Khalid80
06-17-2009, 04:50 PM
"Iran’s opposition leader calls for mass protests

Mousavi urges followers to wear black in mourning; military warns bloggers"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31380861/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa

I really hope not but it looks like things r going to get worse in Iran :(

daniab
06-17-2009, 06:56 PM
Hopefully everything will be fine soon,and i hope whoever saying the truth will success at the end.

LuDux
06-17-2009, 07:22 PM
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/12713990.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1245266422&Signature=NxB0UE8Lapn4pBcbm7EYD2NAcdI%3D

http://i.friendfeed.com/c3b511331254072c70d5af010af265cca1658936 (http://i.friendfeed.com/c3b511331254072c70d5af010af265cca1658936)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2009/jun/17/iran-middleeast1?picture=349009309

mvblair
06-17-2009, 10:56 PM
I hope the situation in Iran ends peacefully, like the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, People Power in the Philippines, or even the smaller Cedar Revolution of Lebanon. Unfortunately, it seems that the Iranian government is much, much stronger.

spider
06-18-2009, 05:40 AM
I know quite alot about Iran, these elections I can definitely say were fair and the results are correct, Ahmadinejad won, it's a reality and those who oppose it will not go anywhere with this, even moussawi,khatami and the rest of the "reformists"... yeah right...are against what's happening from demonstrators.

spider
06-18-2009, 05:46 AM
I hope the situation in Iran ends peacefully, like the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, People Power in the Philippines, or even the smaller Cedar Revolution of Lebanon. Unfortunately, it seems that the Iranian government is much, much stronger.

cedar revolution, lol .

Levenspiel
06-18-2009, 10:14 AM
The Independent Article (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-secret-letter-proves-mousavi-won-poll-1707896.html)


Robert Fisk: Secret letter 'proves Mousavi won poll'

Thursday, 18 June 2009

They were handing out the photocopies by the thousand under the plane trees in the centre of the boulevard, single sheets of paper grabbed by the opposition supporters who are now wearing black for the 15 Iranians who have been killed in Tehran – who knows how many more in the rest of the country? – since the election results gave Mahmoud Ahmadinejad more than 24 million votes and a return to the presidency. But for the tens of thousands marking their fifth day of protests yesterday – and for their election campaign hero, Mirhossein Mousavi, who officially picked up just 13 million votes – those photocopies were irradiated.

For the photocopy appeared to be a genuine but confidential letter from the Iranian minister of interior, Sadeq Mahsuli, to Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, written on Saturday 13 June, the day after the elections, and giving both Mr Mousavi and his ally, Mehdi Karroubi, big majorities in the final results. In a highly sophisticated society like Iran, forgery is as efficient as anywhere in the West and there are reasons for both distrusting and believing this document. But it divides the final vote between Mr Mousavi and Mr Karroubi in such a way that it would have forced a second run-off vote – scarcely something Mousavi's camp would have wanted.

Headed "For the Attention of the Supreme Leader" it notes "your concerns for the 10th presidential elections" and "and your orders for Mr Ahmadinejad to be elected president", and continues "for your information only, I am telling you the actual results". Mr Mousavi has 19,075,623, Mr Karroubi 13,387,104, and Mr Ahmadinejad a mere 5,698,417.

Karroubi have followed only six million votes behind him? And however incredible Mr Ahmadinejad's officially declared 63 per cent of the vote may have been, could he really – as a man who has immense support among the poor of Iran – have picked up only five-and-a-half million votes? And would a letter of such immense importance be signed only "on behalf of the minister"?

....




Interior Ministry's letter to the Supreme Leader

Salaam Aleikum.

Regarding your concerns for the 10th presidential elections and due to your orders for Mr Ahmedinejad to be elected President, in this sensitive time, all matters have been organised in such a way that the results of the election will be in line with the revolution and the Islamic system. The following result will be declared to the people and all planning should be put in force to prevent any possible action from the opposition, and all party leaders and election candidates are under intense surveillance. Therefore, for your information only, I am telling you the actual results as follows:

Mirhossein Mousavi: 19,075,623
Mehdi Karroubi: 13,387,104
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: 5,698,417
Mohsen Rezai: 38,716
(signed on behalf of the minister)


Full article (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-secret-letter-proves-mousavi-won-poll-1707896.html)

spider
06-18-2009, 10:50 AM
Robert Fisk is a liar, he lives in Beirut and married to a lebanese, This guy is on the payroll of bandar bin sultan in saudi arabia, he always attacks the regime in Iran, where did he receive this letter ? anyone actually believes such reporters ?

goga78
06-18-2009, 11:40 AM
Duh@! always we are people in this area of this wide world when our man looses we say cheating !!! what the hell is that ......:mad:
The best won and that's it , cheating by 63% win !? hehe
well it's not the right site to discuss such things :)

Really? Like the 98,5% the Communist Party got in the Soviet Union and the 100% Saddam Hussein got or Kim Chen Ir in North Korea.

mohsena2631
06-18-2009, 11:53 AM
I know quite alot about Iran, these elections I can definitely say were fair and the results are correct, Ahmadinejad won, it's a reality and those who oppose it will not go anywhere with this, even moussawi,khatami and the rest of the "reformists"... yeah right...are against what's happening from demonstrators.

Who told you these lies? Hassan Nasrallah ?

more than half of Iranians are against this regime but they don't want another bloody revolution , They have enough experience and that's why they supported Khatami and his reform plans.

---------------------------------------------

For anyone who had doubts :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/jun/17/iran-election-rigging


Turnouts of more than 100% were recorded in at least 30 Iranian towns in last week's disputed presidential election, opposition sources have claimed.

In the most specific allegations of rigging yet to emerge, the centrist Ayandeh website – which stayed neutral during the campaign – reported that 26 provinces across the country showed participation figures so high they were either hitherto unheard of in democratic elections or in excess of the number of registered electors.

Taft, a town in the central province of Yazd, had a turnout of 141%, the site said, quoting an unnamed "political expert". Kouhrang, in Chahar Mahaal Bakhtiari province, recorded a 132% turnout while Chadegan, in Isfahan province, had 120%.

Ayandeh's source said at least 200 polling stations across Iran recorded participation rates of 95% or above. "This is generally considered scientifically impossible because out of every given cohort of 20 voters, there will be at least one who is either ill, out of the country, has recently died or is unable to participate for some other reasons," the source said. "It is also unprecedented in the history of Iran and all other democratic countries."

The claims are impossible to verify, but they are consistent with comments made by a former Iranian interior minister, Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour, who said on Tuesday that 70 polling stations returned more completed ballot papers than the number of locally eligible voters.

goga78
06-18-2009, 12:25 PM
Who told you these lies? Hassan Nasrallah ?

more than half of Iranians are against this regime but they don't want another bloody revolution , They have enough experience and that's why they supported Khatami and his reform plans.

---------------------------------------------

For anyone who had doubts :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/jun/17/iran-election-rigging

However, it might very well be that Achmadinedschad would have won nation-wide elections without a fraud. He has the sympathy of lots of poor people on his side, which is inexplicable, since the corruption didn't diminish in his presidential term but was only rising. He has brought Iran in a very bad situation internationally, too. But that is not even the point. The quarrell between Achmadinedschad and Moussavi is within the regime itself. The are two of four candidates that were allowed by the regime to run and neither one of them would be the true head of state in case of him winning these elections.

As far as I understand it, so many people on the streets of Iranian cities are not that much demonstration for Moussavi but rather for more freedom, less autocracy, less corruption, against international isolation. To put it short, against the current regime, which doesn't start with the president of Iran, of course. It's just a pity that they are lacking a true opposition and reformists' leader, since pretty much all of them were forced to flee after Khomeini came to power and are not recognizable faces in Iran of today. They hardly have any influence, are not well-known.

Levenspiel
06-18-2009, 01:05 PM
Just like Matt stated above, I cannot see any strong evidence about the election results being fixed, either. Maybe they were, I don't know, but it will be near impossible to prove that.

Coming from a neighbor country with a thousand year long mutual history, I highly respect Iran and Iranian people, and I'd personally prefer them to have a more open and democratic state. But that's their choice in the end. I hope their preference is justly reflected. However, due to some reasons I dare to assume, it doesn't sound incredible at all to me if the higher fraction of people still supports the existing regime.

goga78
06-18-2009, 01:14 PM
Coming from a neighbor country with a thousand year long mutual history, I highly respect Iran and Iranian people, and I'd personally prefer them to have a more open and democratic state. But that's their choice in the end. I hope their preference is justly reflected. However, due to some reasons I dare to assume, it doesn't sound incredible at all to me if the higher fraction of people still supports the regime.

That's the point. It's not their choice as it isn't in any other autocratic regime. Of course, such regimes do always have some people having a profit from it but the majority has only deficits and nothing else. I know it from personal experience, since not being born in Germany. I also have a little tie to Iran, or rather Persia. My greatgrandfother served in the Soviet diplomatic mission as the economics attache in Teheran in 1939. My grandmother went to school there.

Levenspiel
06-18-2009, 02:11 PM
I understand your point but as far as I know, Iran is not Iraq or North Korea, and it's not so easy to manipulate the results so heavily (still possible of course).

I believe the current Iranian regime is bound to collapse one day, not far in the future. But maybe it's not the time yet. Maybe the reformists (and the western media) were a bit too early to expect a victory, and all this is the result of their disappointment. They seem they cannot believe it. That's why I'm suspicious. I don't know if it's their disbelief or a genuine protest against falsification.

The reformist are stronger in urban parts and among the upper, more educated class in Iran, and the experts I read in Turkish papers say that the reformists simply ignored the other poorer people. Or, at least, they were not prepared enough in their campaign to reach these rural parts. Besides Ahmadinejad's stance against the whole world and his nationalistic approach might have brought him a lot of credits despite all the problems aggravated during his rulership.

In the end, we are just outsiders, and things might look all different inside. I just hope the best for the Iranian nation.

goga78
06-18-2009, 04:10 PM
Iran is an autocracy just as North Korea is or Iraq was. Of course, the grade of possible freedoms is different in these three countries but this doesn't diminish the fact of Iran having an autocratic regime. The fact that there are some kind of elections in Iran as opposed to Iraq or North Korea doesn't mean that:

a) anybody can get elected who can put a certain number of signatures on the table
b) anybody who wants to run won't be suppressed by the mullahs, if he is not on their line politically

In fact, election are held only within a certain group of candidates hte mullahs are okay with. We have to understand that the president of Iran is not the highest authority in the country.

Manipulating results is an easy thing to do, if you are in power and your state doesn't have true democracy on its political agenda. Look, what happens in Russia, for example. Manipulation of the whole election process befoe the elections, manipulation of the voting and the results later on.

I hope that the current regime is bound to collapse, too, but this "one day" might be now, it also might be in 50 years. But 50 years are almost three generations. Does it really take another three generation for people to understand the situation and turn it around? I think, a lot of people understand it now but the regime might be too strong as for now. On the other hand, we've had this situation (put the cultural contet aside) in Eastern Europe, too and everything changed within months. The main problem for the protesters is a person that would bound their sincere anger into a different political agenda. Without that, people are just protesting but not trying to create sth. new. The old form of regime is not reformable. Either it remains or it has to be changed.

mvblair
06-18-2009, 07:17 PM
I'm a little disappointed with Obama's and the rest of the international community's response to the situation. Basically, everybody said "yeah, violence isn't good. We're concerned. We're monitoring the situation."

Of course I wouldn't want any country to become involved in Iran's internal affairs, but there is no need for moral relativism here. If Ayatollah Khamenei or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Basij members or the police did something wrong, the international community needs to say that they did something wrong. Undemocratic coups are wrong. Rigged elections are wrong. There is little room for opinion here.

LuDux
06-18-2009, 07:57 PM
I'm a little disappointed with Obama's and the rest of the international community's response to the situation. Basically, everybody said "yeah, violence isn't good. We're concerned. We're monitoring the situation."

Of course I wouldn't want any country to become involved in Iran's internal affairs, but there is no need for moral relativism here. If Ayatollah Khamenei or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Basij members or the police did something wrong, the international community needs to say that they did something wrong. Undemocratic coups are wrong. Rigged elections are wrong. There is little room for opinion here.

Question is, will strong response change anything in regime's actions or will it be used for propaganda?

Billy Bounce
06-18-2009, 08:16 PM
I'm a little disappointed with Obama's and the rest of the international community's response to the situation. Basically, everybody said "yeah, violence isn't good. We're concerned. We're monitoring the situation."


Any word from Obama would be big prize for Ahmadinejad : Mousavi will be presented as US/West collaborator and his fight as a attempt of the West to interfere with Iranian inner affairs.

Besides, there is an agreement signed as a condition of US diplomats release in 1981 that USA will not interfere in Iranian matters.

As for all these demonstrations ,judging from historical perspective , for the last 1500 years every ~ 40-50 years there is a change of ruling dynasty in Iran. The Islamic revolution was in 1979 , so it's about a time ...

40 year period isn't by incident , it's roughly a time of generations' change .
Today most of Iranians ( especially youngsters and students ) lived all their live under the rule of Islamic state and probably they just want a change in their life.

spider
06-18-2009, 09:50 PM
Who told you these lies? Hassan Nasrallah ?

more than half of Iranians are against this regime but they don't want another bloody revolution , They have enough experience and that's why they supported Khatami and his reform plans.



who are you to mention Hassan Nasrallah ?

I know there are tons of Iranians against the regime, but the results aren't rigged, khatami is reformist on economical issues mainly, not political reforms, he supports this regime and he is with wilayat fakih, you are stuck with it, enjoy life in iran!

mvblair
06-18-2009, 10:34 PM
Team,

I had to edit some posts that were insulting. Let's keep this discussion civil. We have disagreements, but let's be logical and not insulting.

--mvblair

mvblair
06-18-2009, 10:36 PM
LuDux, any pronouncement by international figures would have no effect in Iran. You're right.
Any word from Obama would be big prize for Ahmadinejad : Mousavi will be presented as US/West collaborator and his fight as a attempt of the West to interfere with Iranian inner affairs. That's true! That's a very good point. Nevertheless, we, as supporters of democracy, should always support free democracy.

BlacKOEIsle
06-18-2009, 11:33 PM
LuDux, any pronouncement by international figures would have no effect in Iran. You're right. That's true! That's a very good point. Nevertheless, we, as supporters of democracy, should always support free democracy.

Yeah,but one thing is ,Free democracy dosen't fit every country.Look at Mongolia,Thailand,Zimbabwe....

Democracy System should be established by the country himself,not by international pressure and just copy a similar system from western countries.

I don't know Iran much,but as for China,I think at least another 30 years is needed for China to fit for whole free democracy.Western people often criticize China for its regime,but ignore the fact that China is becoming more and more democracy,though the speed is not fast.

I fancy this way:The country itself grows to democracy state,not pushed and affected by international enviorment.

And it seems not all people in Iran support reform.Criticize from western countried can only make these people annoyed.

goga78
06-19-2009, 12:27 AM
Obama is once again showing that he has got no clue and no balls. Regardless of any propaganda misuse of Western leaders, the US president in particular, speaking out, the US administration is quite sure that the regime won't fall and since Obama wants to talk to everyone including the ayatollahs, he wants a bette starting position for it. That is why the US is taking no clear stance it would have taken on under any other president (well, except Jimmy Carter). This is plain wrong. The US has to speak out. What can Iranian mass media do? Portray it as an US provocation? When hundreds of thousands of Iranians are pouring out on the sgtreets? People in Iran aren't dumb, they know exactly, why they themselves or their compatriots are demonstrating. This laissez faire foreign politics by the Obama administration with its change of priorities is doing the world no good.

Democracy fits every society that wants to evolve and to progress. What should we learn from Zimbabwe? Do you want to tell that there is democracy going on there? Democracy can only be established in the concerned country by its citizens but other countries can help. Germany and Japan are good examples. The whole Eastern Europe is a good example. It wasn't invaded, its political leaders were autocratic, corrupt and have done no good to their countries. Thanks to US pressure hey finally collided.

There is no "more" or "less democracy". Either your system is democratic or it isn't. China's political system has nothing to do with democracy, even if its economic policy has changed somewhat. Give China a free press and tell Chinese people day in and day out about Communist Party's atrocities for one month and you will get a situation that will lead to changing of the political system. Right now, it's a mono-party system with that single party being the strong autoritarian in charge of everything. It won't change from within. There are no signs for it, no institutions, no international pressure due to economic reasons.

Not all people in Iran support any kind of reforms. There are always profiteurs from current political agendas. Be it the clerics, the military, the bureaucrats or some other figures. Pooor people don't know it any better. It has been the same in other authoritarian regimes, too. Why do you think that every fifth Russian is still voting for the Communists? Because life in the Soviet Union was really good for the people?

BlacKOEIsle
06-19-2009, 12:53 AM
Obama is once again showing that he has got no clue and no balls. Regardless of any propaganda misuse of Western leaders, the US president in particular, speaking out, the US administration is quite sure that the regime won't fall and since Obama wants to talk to everyone including the ayatollahs, he wants a bette starting position for it. That is why the US is taking no clear stance it would have taken on under any other president (well, except Jimmy Carter). This is plain wrong. The US has to speak out. What can Iranian mass media do? Portray it as an US provocation? When hundreds of thousands of Iranians are pouring out on the sgtreets? People in Iran aren't dumb, they know exactly, why they themselves or their compatriots are demonstrating. This laissez faire foreign politics by the Obama administration with its change of priorities is doing the world no good.

Democracy fits every society that wants to evolve and to progress. What should we learn from Zimbabwe? Do you want to tell that there is democracy going on there? Democracy can only be established in the concerned country by its citizens but other countries can help. Germany and Japan are good examples. The whole Eastern Europe is a good example. It wasn't invaded, its political leaders were autocratic, corrupt and have done no good to their countries. Thanks to US pressure hey finally collided.

There is no "more" or "less democracy". Either your system is democratic or it isn't. China's political system has nothing to do with democracy, even if its economic policy has changed somewhat. Give China a free press and tell Chinese people day in and day out about Communist Party's atrocities for one month and you will get a situation that will lead to changing of the political system. Right now, it's a mono-party system with that single party being the strong autoritarian in charge of everything. It won't change from within. There are no signs for it, no institutions, no international pressure due to economic reasons.

Not all people in Iran support any kind of reforms. There are always profiteurs from current political agendas. Be it the clerics, the military, the bureaucrats or some other figures. Pooor people don't know it any better. It has been the same in other authoritarian regimes, too. Why do you think that every fifth Russian is still voting for the Communists? Because life in the Soviet Union was really good for the people?

You simply don't know China much.That's normal,because Western media ofen exaggerate Chinese's status.

30 years ago if you criticize the leaders such as Mao Zhedong,or even call his name not Chairman Mao,you will be in big trouble.But now in some exent you can criticize the governors freely.Don't think it's more democracy?



Give China a free press and tell Chinese people day in and day out about Communist Party's atrocities for one month and you will get a situation that will lead to changing of the political system

That' also not true.Many Chinese ,including me ,support democracy,but don't think free democracy fit China now.If you think I am brainwashed by the government,then I can tell you the majority of Chinese overseas hold the same opinion of mine.

I can give you some explanation:

1)If you aske a beggar what he prefers,food or democracy,what's likely his answer?

2)Democracy should be built in a society people has a good understanding of if,unfortunatly,I can say many farmers in the village don't know it at all...

3)China now is a country heading for industilaize with still 750 million people in the village for farming,if China is free democracy now,you can predict that the policy should be unreasonable incline to the agriculture.

4)In Chinese tradition people always want to have more childs.If no policy constraint,I can say China may have over 2 billion people now,that will be a disater not only for China,but for the whole world.



There are no signs for it, no institutions, no international pressure due to economic reasons.

That's why I say there is at least another 30 years needed.
The authoritarian captalist fit China very well now,So people just don't want to change ,yet,the number of middle class is still small..But time will change it....

Billy Bounce
06-19-2009, 09:42 AM
Nevertheless, we, as supporters of democracy, should always support free democracy.

I wish it worked that way: you give to people the right to vote freely and the whole society turns into liberal democracy.

However , as BlacKOEIsle mentioned above , the society must be ready to govern itself . Without free press, equality before the law , etc this task of imposing democracy is doomed from the beginning.

Look what happened to Palestinians in Gaza : they got free democratic elections and voted for Hamas. As you may guess , Hamas didn't started to nourish free press , but launched a coup against law enforcement institutions they are supposed to support.

The analogy for US : Dems won majority in the Congress and the next week armed Dem party supporters storm FBI and police offices just to get rid of Republican members within those institutions.

goga78
06-19-2009, 10:09 AM
You simply don't know China much.That's normal,because Western media ofen exaggerate Chinese's status.

30 years ago if you criticize the leaders such as Mao Zhedong,or even call his name not Chairman Mao,you will be in big trouble.But now in some exent you can criticize the governors freely.Don't think it's more democracy?

Nope. Did Soviet Union's political system change in 1956 after the XX Communist Party Congress, when Nikita Krushchev told the delegates about Stalin's atrocities? No. The only new development was that not everybody was obliged to adore Stalin publicly. The USSR hasn't gotten more democratic with it.


That' also not true.Many Chinese ,including me ,support democracy,but don't think free democracy fit China now.If you think I am brainwashed by the government,then I can tell you the majority of Chinese overseas hold the same opinion of mine.

Democracy is a good fit everywhere people want to have a decent life with cultural, economic and political freedom. Where people want to respect each other and no political movement or party is allowed to be the one and only power, which automatically leads to no democracy at all. In societies, where people want to be tortured, where they want to have to rights, where the want despots to rule over them and execute or imprison them at will, democracy is not a good fit. That's cool with me. But I basically don't know such masochists.


I can give you some explanation:

1)If you aske a beggar what he prefers,food or democracy,what's likely his answer?

Oh, this sounds very familiar and can be heard too often from politicians just a bit north of your country. There is no contradiction between food and democracy. On the contrary. Where there is democracy, there is food, development and better life for the whole population. As long as there is food instead of democracy, there is very little food and nothing else.



2)Democracy should be built in a society people has a good understanding of if,unfortunatly,I can say many farmers in the village don't know it at all...

Now you are mistaking elections with democracy. Democracy is so much more and includes many other institutions before it comes to elections.
If it would be just about elections, I would agree with you 100%. You cannot hold elections in relatively uneducated societies (as a whole), where whole generations don't know any other life but under a tyrant. It did have moderate success in Europe but failed completely in other parts of the world (though, with notable exceptions), where you had just two choices: the (secular) tyrant or some other form of it, usually the religious movement. Not being autonomous in their head and deeds, people voted as they were told and the result is evident. You cannot start with elections. The society has to lose the grip of its rulers and needs to get openly free in their head, namely via freedom of expression.


3)China now is a country heading for industilaize with still 750 million people in the village for farming,if China is free democracy now,you can predict that the policy should be unreasonable incline to the agriculture.

That's true. That is also why China needs freedom of press and other ingredients of a democratic system. Poor village people need to be educated, need to try new ways to earn money, without having to relocate to the city for minimal wages. Capitalism under Communist Party's rule sounds as an oxymoron.


4)In Chinese tradition people always want to have more childs.If no policy constraint,I can say China may have over 2 billion people now,that will be a disater not only for China,but for the whole world.

What is the ratio of children per capita in China on the land and in the cities? How much different is it?
Look, when you get new ways to go to make your life better, your only extracurricular activity won't be making children. It has happened everywhere in the world. Birth ratio has gone down with industrialisation and living standard. Of course, it doesn't have to be like it is in Europe, but US ratios are good. Their population is growing but not exploding. The living standard has alwas been rising.



That's why I say there is at least another 30 years needed.
The authoritarian captalist fit China very well now,So people just don't want to change ,yet,the number of middle class is still small..But time will change it....

Are you going to find millions of masochists who say: "I don't care what happens to me and my children under this autocratic regime. But someday, maybe in 30 years, maybe in 50, maybe never, MAYBE there will be changes towards democracy."? People want changes in their lifetime, the sooner the better. -we live once and do not want to waste our lifes that way.

mohsena2631
06-19-2009, 11:10 AM
I understand your point but as far as I know, Iran is not Iraq or North Korea, and it's not so easy to manipulate the results so heavily (still possible of course).

yes, Definitely Iran is not Iraq or North Korea. and it's not easy to manipulate the results but they actually did it ! as many said, this is not an election, this is a Coup !

anyway, today Khamaneh'ei strongly backed AN in a funny show (Friday prayer) and this made the situation very dangerous for the protesters ! I think tomorrow is a very crucial day.

BlacKOEIsle
06-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Democracy is a good fit everywhere people want to have a decent life with cultural, economic and political freedom. Where people want to respect each other and no political movement or party is allowed to be the one and only power, which automatically leads to no democracy at all. In societies, where people want to be tortured, where they want to have to rights, where the want despots to rule over them and execute or imprison them at will, democracy is not a good fit. That's cool with me. But I basically don't know such masochists.


If you come to China,you will know.Masochists is an insulting word.For a country who has been a regime for about 5,000 years,some old ideas has been rooted in people's blood,and it's not easy to remove it in a short time.



Oh, this sounds very familiar and can be heard too often from politicians just a bit north of your country. There is no contradiction between food and democracy. On the contrary. Where there is democracy, there is food, development and better life for the whole population. As long as there is food instead of democracy, there is very little food and nothing else.

You have misunderstood my meaning.of coz there is no contradiction between food and democracy,but it has been proved authoritarian captalism can make China more rich.You should take a look at India.India was richer than China before 1950s,but now the GDP per person in China has been 3 times of India.



Now you are mistaking elections with democracy. Democracy is so much more and includes many other institutions before it comes to elections.
If it would be just about elections, I would agree with you 100%. You cannot hold elections in relatively uneducated societies (as a whole), where whole generations don't know any other life but under a tyrant. It did have moderate success in Europe but failed completely in other parts of the world (though, with notable exceptions), where you had just two choices: the (secular) tyrant or some other form of it, usually the religious movement. Not being autonomous in their head and deeds, people voted as they were told and the result is evident. You cannot start with elections. The society has to lose the grip of its rulers and needs to get openly free in their head, namely via freedom of expression.

Indeed,China's village officials are voted by the villager themselves,but that's not enough.It's reported in Shenzhen there are experiment that some city officials are also voted,but I don't know the details.

Without election democracy is nothing.Officials doesn't need to care about people's want.No way they will give people whole free democracy.




That's true. That is also why China needs freedom of press and other ingredients of a democratic system. Poor village people need to be educated, need to try new ways to earn money, without having to relocate to the city for minimal wages. Capitalism under Communist Party's rule sounds as an oxymoron.

oxymoron?Indeed Comunism is a word with not much political meaning in China now.We all know we are controlled by a single party,but Comunism?hey,no one really believes it,including most Communists..

And it's not democracy make poor village people get educated.In China 99% people can read.While in Inida,half of the women can't read at all.



What is the ratio of children per capita in China on the land and in the cities? How much different is it?
Look, when you get new ways to go to make your life better, your only extracurricular activity won't be making children. It has happened everywhere in the world. Birth ratio has gone down with industrialisation and living standard. Of course, it doesn't have to be like it is in Europe, but US ratios are good. Their population is growing but not exploding. The living standard has alwas been rising.

The ratio of children per capital in China on the land is higher than the cities,but you should not ignore the fact:If the farmers born more than one child ,he will be fined,that's all about money,and now most of farmers can afford it.But if people who works for the government,such as teachers and workers in public school and state-own factories,they will be fired.

Birth ratio has gone down not only just with industrialisation and living standard,but also with the changes of ideas.The truth is in China,people still want to have more children,though the tradition is on the track of changing...



Are you going to find millions of masochists who say: "I don't care what happens to me and my children under this autocratic regime. But someday, maybe in 30 years, maybe in 50, maybe never, MAYBE there will be changes towards democracy."? People want changes in their lifetime, the sooner the better. -we live once and do not want to waste our lifes that way.

In China most people are satisfied with their lives,yeah,in your word we are all masochists?For now Chinese people care more about money,not political rights.That's why the regime is stable.When the majority people are rich enough and care about other things,there will be a different story.

Levenspiel
06-19-2009, 11:54 AM
Democracy fits every society that wants to evolve and to progress. What should we learn from Zimbabwe? Do you want to tell that there is democracy going on there?
I totally agree with the first sentence. I really hate these "poor/rural people cannot understand the democracy" claims. Maybe it's understandable to some extent for huge and complicated societies like China or India, but there are idiots keep saying the same things even in my relatively small country. This is just not sincere. As far as I can see, our "low class" people understands the democracy much better then the educated class does.



Democracy can only be established in the concerned country by its citizens but other countries can help. Germany and Japan are good examples. The whole Eastern Europe is a good example. It wasn't invaded, its political leaders were autocratic, corrupt and have done no good to their countries. Thanks to US pressure hey finally collided.

However the USA's resume in Iran is not so bright I guess, in terms of developing, establishing or sustaining the democracy. They were the ones who deposed the elected prime minister - Mussadik (sp?) - and brought Pehlevi (sp?) right?

goga78
06-19-2009, 12:13 PM
yes, Definitely Iran is not Iraq or North Korea. and it's not easy to manipulate the results but they actually did it ! as many said, this is not an election, this is a Coup !

anyway, today Khamaneh'ei strongly backed AN in a funny show (Friday prayer) and this made the situation very dangerous for the protesters ! I think tomorrow is a very crucial day.

Yes, I read the same in the news. It is getting very problematic for the protesters after this move by Khamenei. If the demonstrations go on, more force will be used. As I have read, Moussavi now has to fall a decision: either abandon his struggle against AN or leave the country. Is it true? My guess is, Moussavi will succumb earlier than the people on the streets.

Billy Bounce
06-19-2009, 12:28 PM
Democracy is a good fit everywhere people want to have a decent life with cultural, economic and political freedom. Where people want to respect each other and no political movement or party is allowed to be the one and only power, which automatically leads to no democracy at all. ...


We used to agree on almost everything, but this time let me disagree :p

In many ways autocratic regime conceding its hold step-by-step is better then a sudden regime collapse. A sudden regime change could only lead to people's disillusion in the democracy ideas ( look at modern Russia for example)

In China people have tested economic freedom and there is no way to return to the old communist system. Sooner or later Chinese free market would lead to political freedom.


Do you want to tell that there is democracy going on there? Democracy can only be established in the concerned country by its citizens but other countries can help. Germany and Japan are good examples. The whole Eastern Europe is a good example. It wasn't invaded, its political leaders were autocratic, corrupt and have done no good to their countries. Thanks to US pressure hey finally collided.

Eastern Europe , Germany and Japan experienced democracy at some period of their history. There is a big difference from "getting back on track" to "building democracy from the scratch"

goga78
06-19-2009, 12:53 PM
If you come to China,you will know.Masochists is an insulting word.For a country who has been a regime for about 5,000 years,some old ideas has been rooted in people's blood,and it's not easy to remove it in a short time.


It's not like Europe wasn't under monarchic rule for almost 2000 years but it did evolve, while not having any examples in front of it. Now, the democratic model has established itself with time and is clearly showing its advantages compared to any other system. If people WANT to live under someone's foot, they are masochists. If they live under someone's foot and do not do anything against it, they ARE masochists. I know, how tough it is to do sth. against autocratic regimes from within, especially, if they exists for many decades already. But it is not the same as putting up a suggestion that people would like to remain under someone's foot for now or forever).



You have misunderstood my meaning.of coz there is no contradiction between food and democracy,but it has been proved authoritarian captalism can make China more rich.You should take a look at India.India was richer than China before 1950s,but now the GDP per person in China has been 3 times of India.

To tell you the truth, I understood it completely right ;) As I told you, I'm hearing this suggestion not for the first time and I heard it from some Russian people, so this is no novelty to me.
It has been proven, that autoritarian capitalism can make China rich? How and when? Autoritarian and capitalism are two terms that do not have anything in common. Capitalism uses free market in order to exists. Can there be a really free market with a single-party power? The party is getting rich itself and holding strong to what they want or do not want to allow. It works completely different in pluralistic societies.
More rich? Sure, if you start at zero, it can only go up in high percentages.
So, Indias problems are rooted in its political system and they just need an iron fist there in order to improve their economic situation? Maybe, we can also look at the numbers of people, being misused by the respective governments?



Indeed,China's village officials are voted by the villager themselves,but that's not enough.It's reported in Shenzhen there are experiment that some city officials are also voted,but I don't know the details.

Without election democracy is nothing.Officials doesn't need to care about people's want.No way they will give people whole free democracy.

Before the old ruling party loses itspower, people have to get stronger and get a platform to express their respective ideas. Then, it comes to election, since the current government is seemingly losing support. How do you think it would evolve in the proposed 30 years? The Communist Party suddenly saying that it is tired of power and urging Chinese people to build and to elect new parties?



oxymoron?Indeed Comunism is a word with not much political meaning in China now.We all know we are controlled by a single party,but Comunism?hey,no one really believes it,including most Communists..

And it's not democracy make poor village people get educated.In China 99% people can read.While in Inida,half of the women can't read at all.

It's like with Russian communists, whose leader is suddenly declaring that many of his party members are religiously devoted and it's okay. What does religion have in common with communism? What do millions over millions on your bank account have to do with communism? Nothing. It's just a cover for the electorate.
What do you have from being able to read, if there is nothing to read? No comparison with India is needed. In India, people can read what they want and elect whom they want. This is not to portray the situation in India as perfect, but we are also not talking about India. Besides, over 100 million of people over 14 in China are illiterates. This is a bit more than 1%.



The ratio of children per capital in China on the land is higher than the cities,but you should not ignore the fact:If the farmers born more than one child ,he will be fined,that's all about money,and now most of farmers can afford it.But if people who works for the government,such as teachers and workers in public school and state-own factories,they will be fired.

Concrete numbers would be interesting. It is not about being able to feed your children, it is about giving them a perspective. People have to be educated that way for the good of themselves and their country.


Birth ratio has gone down not only just with industrialisation and living standard,but also with the changes of ideas.The truth is in China,people still want to have more children,though the tradition is on the track of changing...

Lots of people over here would like to have more children but cannot afford it because they wouldn't be able to give them any perspective. This is what it's all about. Getting children is not like collecting stamps (the more the better).



In China most people are satisfied with their lives,yeah,in your word we are all masochists?For now Chinese people care more about money,not political rights.That's why the regime is stable.When the majority people are rich enough and care about other things,there will be a different story.

Just as they are satisfied in Belorussia, for example. They are not starving and have a minimal living standard (very minimal) and that is okay. If they get shown a broader perspective on what they are missing out, they are going to wish more, which is natural. It's like in the cave parable by Plato.

Political rights give you control over government, a civil society that cares for you, more ways to be educated and thus to get wealthy. What do you have from your money or your business, if the administration can come every moment and take it away because some of their people needs it? Of course, not by sheer force but through courts that are not following orders.

The majority of people will never be rich under such circumstances, neither financially not morally. China is not the first and not the last regime of this kind and we have witnessed in other countries what shutting the people's mouths can lead to.

May I ask you about where you live in China?

goga78
06-19-2009, 01:06 PM
I totally agree with the first sentence. I really hate these "poor/rural people cannot understand the democracy" claims. Maybe it's understandable to some extent for huge and complicated societies like China or India, but there are idiots keep saying the same things even in my relatively small country. This is just not sincere. As far as I can see, our "low class" people understands the democracy much better then the educated class does.



However the USA's resume in Iran is not so bright I guess, in terms of developing, establishing or sustaining the democracy. They were the ones who deposed the elected prime minister - Mussadik (sp?) - and brought Pehlevi (sp?) right?

Well, Pahlevi nominated Mossadegh to prime minister himself.
I'm not living in Iran but I doubt that the majority of the people, especially the young ones, have sth. against the US. They have the example of life in the US, of how it could be in Iran (freedom-wise). In addition, the US sent a big medical and technical support to Iran, when an earthquake destroyed Bam. Actually, the first country who wanted to send help was Israel who unfortunately does have the best experts in identifying the dead people's remnants (roots are in Palestinian terrorist attacks with explosives). Plus, medical and technological help. Israel is the closest really developed country in the region and the time after earthquakes is scarce and important. Still, the mullahs didn't want Israelis there, willfully letting their own people die. But this is a different story. Actually, we somehow drifted away from Iran.

goga78
06-19-2009, 01:31 PM
We used to agree on almost everything, but this time let me disagree :p

Hey, it's part democracy! :p


In many ways autocratic regime conceding its hold step-by-step is better then a sudden regime collapse. A sudden regime change could only lead to people's disillusion in the democracy ideas ( look at modern Russia for example)

In China people have tested economic freedom and there is no way to return to the old communist system. Sooner or later Chinese free market would lead to political freedom.

Well, Russia is a good example. The Soviet Union was able to implode from within, when people got more chances to freedom of expression. I still remember the times in the 1980ies with new TV broadcasts, with new books etc. people used to talk about the whole time. Then and only then there was no way back. What happed after that was a time of some early democratic developments but it didn't succeed due to the economic problems and lack of development of common people. Not that incompetent people were in charge. The market was bad. Russia didn't have any money, the oil price was at 10 USD/barrell, the communists still enjoyed a lot of support but it was the only time Russia had democracy writen on its official banner. What came after that? An autoritarian regime, no freedom of press, but due to a high oil price many people were profiting somewhat and people became amorphous. Even now, when the situation in Russia has gotten worse, people are reluctant to go on the streets in masses and impose their will for changes. I don't know any other such amorphous population anywhere in the world! In the theocratical Iran, people are not afraid to go on the streets and protest. Hundreds of thousands of them. In Russia, everyone seems to have arranged himself with the situation. It is like it has always been. The only tumultuous time was in 1991, when the political system was changing. The current regime has all the signs of the old Communist party concerning autoritarian rule. What is a shame is that liking this system has previously been a sign of bad taste, especially among intellectuals. What is happening there now is indescribable. Being the ruling party's member is okay. No civil society, no pluralism, no development, bad overall living conditions.

When people's situation gets better in China (it is still far from being good), they will rather develop in Russia's direction. No autoritarian regime has ever abandoned its power willfully. The only exception is Pinochet, who did what he promised, when he came to power. He held free elections, didn't get re-elected and left his office peacefully.



Eastern Europe , Germany and Japan experienced democracy at some period of their history. There is a big difference from "getting back on track" to "building democracy from the scratch"

Japan has been an authoritarian monarchy before 1945. Germany has never been a democracy, even if freedoms existed in the Weimar Republic. It had free elections but the society was not democratic as a whole. Do you think the German population would have become Hitler's willing followers and executioners within just a couple of years, when it would be democratic before? Early democracy roots have existed in other countries but the generation which came to power after the Cold War has never experienced democracy and for them it was mostly a theoretical term.

mvblair
06-19-2009, 01:41 PM
I'm not living in Iran but I doubt that the majority of the people, especially the young ones, have sth. against the US. Same here. In Iran, I don't think most of the youth hate the US. And in the US, most of the youth don't hate Iran. I think most young people everywhere would rather see more cooperation between all countries.

I'm really disappointed in Ayatollah Khamenei this morning. Although I suppose I've always disagreed with a lot of Iran's national decisions, I've also had the idea that many of the priests really do have integrity. I think Khamenei's decision to support the election results without inquiry shows a lot of insecurity and lack of integrity.

Mohsena, have you been to any of the protests? Where are you?

BlacKOEIsle
06-19-2009, 01:49 PM
May I ask you about where you live in China?

My childhood is in Chonqing and now I live in Shanghai.

Who tell you Chinese people can't express their ideas at all?Indeed we can freely talk about the topics such as democracy,Multi-Party Govern in some extent.Although it is not totally free,but you can feel clearly the government is gradully loosing the tight controll,mainly because they realise that they just can't shut up people's mouth because of internet-----You can say Chinese government is clever to do that,and this's a main factor why they are more stable than other regime in the world.

Democracy without whole election?I can tell you that's just what the CCP want. there is a different official name:Chinese-style democracy,which is convention of Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao.....I can say that's just the party's illusion.Democracy is the trend,no one can prevent it,and democracy without election is not real democracy at all.

People can't get rich under regime?Then tell me why China can maintain a high growth rate in the past 30 years.On the contray,China now produce more and more middle classes and rich people,and they are the ones who want democracy most.

And I really don't like people regard China as a "red" country,yes, we were a red country from 1949 -1978.But now most of people don't believe Communism at all,and even laught at it.

BlacKOEIsle
06-19-2009, 02:02 PM
Japan has been an authoritarian monarchy before 1945. Germany has never been a democracy, even if freedoms existed in the Weimar Republic. It had free elections but the society was not democratic as a whole. Do you think the German population would have become Hitler's willing followers and executioners within just a couple of years, when it would be democratic before? Early democracy roots have existed in other countries but the generation which came to power after the Cold War has never experienced democracy and for them it was mostly a theoretical term.

Japan was partly democracy from about 1860-1930.

And western countries has democracy tradition,which can be traced back to the ancient Greece and Roma age.

China is a different story.China was a model of regime in history and built a complete and mature series of rules as early as 3,000 years ago....

Billy Bounce
06-19-2009, 03:17 PM
Japan has been an authoritarian monarchy before 1945. Germany has never been a democracy, even if freedoms existed in the Weimar Republic. It had free elections but the society was not democratic as a whole. Do you think the German population would have become Hitler's willing followers and executioners within just a couple of years, when it would be democratic before? Early democracy roots have existed in other countries but the generation which came to power after the Cold War has never experienced democracy and for them it was mostly a theoretical term.

Well, it all depends on what you call democracy :p

Both Japan ( Taisho period ) and Germany (Weimar Republic) had universal suffrage, political pluralism and constitution : all components of liberal democracy . Constitutional forms , however may be different, e.g. UK is still a constitutional monarchy.

Both German and Japanese democracies were "killed" by economic crisis : the Great Depression of 1920-30s.

mohsena2631
06-19-2009, 05:39 PM
Same here. In Iran, I don't think most of the youth hate the US. And in the US, most of the youth don't hate Iran. I think most young people everywhere would rather see more cooperation between all countries.

hate ? absolutely no ! but maybe I can say that many Iranians still can't trust the United States.



I'm really disappointed in Ayatollah Khamenei this morning. Although I suppose I've always disagreed with a lot of Iran's national decisions, I've also had the idea that many of the priests really do have integrity. I think Khamenei's decision to support the election results without inquiry shows a lot of insecurity and lack of integrity.

many of them have integrity but Khameneh'ei haven't ! He has needlessly tied his destiny to AN.



Mohsena, have you been to any of the protests? Where are you?

yes but not everyday !
I live in Tehran, but Tehran is a very big city, unfortunately/fortunately our house is far from the main streets (where these happened)

goga78
06-19-2009, 11:44 PM
We don't want to go too much into offtopic but as long as there are few to none news posted from and about Iran, we can talk about some connected side shows as well :)


My childhood is in Chonqing and now I live in Shanghai.

OK, just wanted to know, whether it is Hongkong, a major city or rural area :) We're in the middle.


Who tell you Chinese people can't express their ideas at all?Indeed we can freely talk about the topics such as democracy,Multi-Party Govern in some extent.Although it is not totally free,but you can feel clearly the government is gradully loosing the tight controll,mainly because they realise that they just can't shut up people's mouth because of internet-----You can say Chinese government is clever to do that,and this's a main factor why they are more stable than other regime in the world.

Just one question. Can you publicly discuss the Tibet issue and the actions of Chinese government in the region? I mean, not from the perspective that all Tibetians are quarrelers?


Democracy without whole election?I can tell you that's just what the CCP want. there is a different official name:Chinese-style democracy,which is convention of Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao.....I can say that's just the party's illusion.Democracy is the trend,no one can prevent it,and democracy without election is not real democracy at all.

Of course, not. Elections are part of democracy. But the process of democratization does not start with elections. On the contrary, if elections fall on unprepared ground, they will end badly. That's why freedom of expression has to come first.


People can't get rich under regime?Then tell me why China can maintain a high growth rate in the past 30 years.On the contray,China now produce more and more middle classes and rich people,and they are the ones who want democracy most.

Well, if you start from scratch, there is always room to rise. Chinese BIP per capita is still incredibly low. Of course, there are always some people getting wealthier and some getting really rich but money doesn't lead you to ivil society automatically.


And I really don't like people regard China as a "red" country,yes, we were a red country from 1949 -1978.But now most of people don't believe Communism at all,and even laught at it.

Well, just like any other ruling system, China is being labelled after its current governmental form. It doesn't mean that Chinese people are necessarily communists but its regime is. Even if times might have changed and Chinese communists are like Russian communists.


Japan was partly democracy from about 1860-1930.

And western countries has democracy tradition,which can be traced back to the ancient Greece and Roma age.

China is a different story.China was a model of regime in history and built a complete and mature series of rules as early as 3,000 years ago....

Well, a parliament doesn't make up for a total lack of democratic institutions and constitutional monarchies are still monarchies, especially if the monarch is not a decoration but in real political power.

Western countries have traditions of absolutism and have nothing to do with Greece and Rome of ancient times (considering, they were not that democratic as well). Europe has had over 1900 years of absolute monarchy and before that it was split into tribes and kingdoms.

goga78
06-20-2009, 12:03 AM
Well, it all depends on what you call democracy :p

Both Japan ( Taisho period ) and Germany (Weimar Republic) had universal suffrage, political pluralism and constitution : all components of liberal democracy . Constitutional forms , however may be different, e.g. UK is still a constitutional monarchy.

Both German and Japanese democracies were "killed" by economic crisis : the Great Depression of 1920-30s.

There is only one form of democracy. Independent executive, judicative and legislative powers, freedom of expression, rights of minorities, rule of law etc. Germany and Japan lacked it big time. The Weimar Republic suffered even before the Great Depression. Just think of the Treaty of Versailles and its implications for Germany. Don't get it in a revisionist way. Germany waged the war, lost the war and had to deal with consequences. But if you think of the decade between 1918 and 1929, you'll find enough openly undemocratic powers fighting openly against each other. Just the fact that you have several parties doesn't make it a democracy, if these particular parties (back then the conservatives, the nazis and the communists) are undemocratic. Basically, the only party with democratic roots 90 years ago was the Social-Democratic Party.
Germany has never had democracy in its history with some short exception of Weimar Republic. Still, with US help they managed to get to where they are now. The process of de-nazification was of major importance here. In countries, where no open break with its autocratic past has been carried out, not much has changed. Germany decided to go the democratic way not because people were promising themselves a richer life than under the Nazi rule. Reasons were different.

Now I want to hear sth. from Iran. I've read that the regime is cracking down on Twitter and Facebook and that Iranians are increasingly using this Israeli service: http://www.fring.com Interesting story.

BlacKOEIsle
06-20-2009, 12:11 AM
Just one question. Can you publicly discuss the Tibet issue and the actions of Chinese government in the region? I mean, not from the perspective that all Tibetians are quarrelers?
.

Ofcourse we can,and we all know our government did something wrong last March.When youtube was blocked because some videos of PLA beating tibetans,It's hard for you to belive what the government tried to say.

Yes,there are some limitations,but honestly most of people don't get annoyed---because the limitation is :you should regard tibetan part of China.If you attack the government by "China invaded tibetan" or similar things,you maybe in trouble ,otherwise you are free to talk about it.

And that's why I tell you China is getting more and more democracy---because China is obviously not democracy enough now.You will still be in trouble because of words,just not totally free.

You can also feel the government's adjustment.They try to controll people while making them satisfied....They can open BBC,CNN or other news website abroad,but also blocked youtube...And it's clearly they are gradully loosing tight controll.

I think internet is a main factor for the government's adjustment.China has 300 million internet user now,you just can't shup up their mouth easily.And do you know what's the officials most afraid of now?That's the internet...

BlacKOEIsle
06-20-2009, 12:28 AM
When people's situation gets better in China (it is still far from being good), they will rather develop in Russia's direction. No autoritarian regime has ever abandoned its power willfully. The only exception is Pinochet, who did what he promised, when he came to power. He held free elections, didn't get re-elected and left his office peacefully.



Do you know Chiang Ching-kuo and Lee Teng-hui..
I think we will rather develop in Chinese Taipe's direction rather than Russia's As we are all Chinese with the same culture.

If you still think China is a communist country and is different with the authoritarian regime of Chinese Taipe under Chiang,then I can only advise you to come to China to obeserve the truth yourself.

LuDux
06-20-2009, 12:50 AM
Now I want to hear sth. from Iran. I've read that the regime is cracking down on Twitter and Facebook and that Iranians are increasingly using this Israeli service: http://www.fring.com Interesting story.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e201157119dc65970b-800wi

scoli
06-20-2009, 01:27 AM
My heart goes out to the Iranian protester. In some country around the world they're always have juggerly election. Does Iran want to call this a clean election? The Khamenei as a member of council he should invite the International community to witness the recount of the election ballots. Obviously there is a rigging of the election, because they don't want to recount the ballot, they don't want any international spectator to witness the opposition being protested against Mahmoud the current President.

However at this time, I would say the United States should stay out of these problems, we don't need any backlash. Of course for us right now we are dealing with many problems of our own. Just to monitor the situation.

Khamenei call for a prayer, it's useless for what reason. Call for prayer of lies?

Khalid80
06-20-2009, 11:02 AM
Ofcourse we can,and we all know our government did something wrong last March.When youtube was blocked because some videos of PLA beating tibetans,It's hard for you to belive what the government tried to say.

Yes,there are some limitations,but honestly most of people don't get annoyed---because the limitation is :you should regard tibetan part of China.If you attack the government by "China invaded tibetan" or similar things,you maybe in trouble ,otherwise you are free to talk about it.

And that's why I tell you China is getting more and more democracy---because China is obviously not democracy enough now.You will still be in trouble because of words,just not totally free.

You can also feel the government's adjustment.They try to controll people while making them satisfied....They can open BBC,CNN or other news website abroad,but also blocked youtube...And it's clearly they are gradully loosing tight controll.

I think internet is a main factor for the government's adjustment.China has 300 million internet user now,you just can't shup up their mouth easily.And do you know what's the officials most afraid of now?That's the internet...

I know this is getting OT but I just want to ask one question.

I remember my Chinese friends showed me a really disturbing video clip of the events that took place in June 1989 (i think it was June 4 and I already know 4 is an unlucky number in Chinese since it also signifies death) in Tiananmen Square between the students and Chinese army and they told me that this topic can't be discussed in public in China. (I saw the clip when I was doing my Masters in England in 2003)

Is this still the case or can you talk about this issue nowadays?


As for what is currently happening in Iran the lastest new is that Mousavi has been warned to cancel ‘illegal gatherings’

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31457916/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa

J-Mart
06-20-2009, 11:12 AM
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e201157119dc65970b-800wi

Nominated for Posted Picture of the Year Award
:D

BlacKOEIsle
06-20-2009, 11:19 AM
I know this is getting OT but I just want to ask one question.

I remember my Chinese friends showed me a really disturbing video clip of the events that took place in June 1989 (i think it was June 4 and I already know 4 is an unlucky number in Chinese since it also signifies death) in Tiananmen Square between the students and Chinese army and they told me that this topic can't be discussed in public in China. (I saw the clip when I was doing my Masters in England in 2003)



It's still a taboo offically....If you just discuss the topic with your friend,that's no problem,otherwise you maybe in trouble...

It's simple,Tiananmen massacre is a blemish of CCP and espeicially Deng Xiaoping,they just don't want people to talk about it again and again.

LuDux
06-20-2009, 11:27 AM
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2011570390cee970c-500wi

Billy Bounce
06-20-2009, 12:02 PM
I think internet is a main factor for the government's adjustment.China has 300 million internet user now,you just can't shut up their mouth easily.And do you know what's the officials most afraid of now?That's the internet...

Not surprising . Look what facebook & twitter done in Iran. :)

Actually these services doing to oppressive regimes the same things that bittorent & eMule doing to music/film recording industry.

These regimes can control centralized press outlets, but it fails when dealing with "peer to peer" reporters. Nowadays virtually anybody with a cell phone is a reporter that is doing his job without depending on getting salary from state controlled institutions and thus totally uncontrollable by the state.

Well, regardless consequences of today Iranian protests , the way of toppling dictatorships is shown, the actual results are just a matter of time ;)

goga78
06-20-2009, 01:36 PM
Ofcourse we can,and we all know our government did something wrong last March.When youtube was blocked because some videos of PLA beating tibetans,It's hard for you to belive what the government tried to say.

Yes,there are some limitations,but honestly most of people don't get annoyed---because the limitation is :you should regard tibetan part of China.If you attack the government by "China invaded tibetan" or similar things,you maybe in trouble ,otherwise you are free to talk about it.

As you say it yourself, you cannot do it publicly. There is no discussion going on. Of course, Chinese people don't get annoyed by it but Tibetans are.
Besides, do you really think that you could see the same stuff on Chinese TV that we were able to see on our TV?


And that's why I tell you China is getting more and more democracy---because China is obviously not democracy enough now.You will still be in trouble because of words,just not totally free.

The fact that people are getting more free in their minds to some extent doesn't make the system a democratic one. Lots of people in the Soviet Union, especially in the cities, hated this system, wanted to live like their peers in the West but that didn't make the system a democratic one.


You can also feel the government's adjustment.They try to controll people while making them satisfied....They can open BBC,CNN or other news website abroad,but also blocked youtube...And it's clearly they are gradully loosing tight controll.

They have to open up, if they want to participate in global market economics but it is still the CCP that decides how much to open up. Western countries aren't pressuring that much and Chinese population as a whole doesn't do it, too.


I think internet is a main factor for the government's adjustment.China has 300 million internet user now,you just can't shup up their mouth easily.And do you know what's the officials most afraid of now?That's the internet...

I think so, too. The internet is the only source you cannot censor completely... if you don't block it fully. But in repressive systems it's much easier to block sites and platforms. Of course, there will always be new ones but if they close facebook, twitter and other big platforms, it's going to be tougher and take much more time for other ideas to be spread. Do you think that people will go to demonstrate for the opening of facebook? Or that this decision will be slammed in press? Or that CCP summit delegates will discuss it openly on TV, positioning themselves differently on that topic?


Do you know Chiang Ching-kuo and Lee Teng-hui..
I think we will rather develop in Chinese Taipe's direction rather than Russia's As we are all Chinese with the same culture.

If you still think China is a communist country and is different with the authoritarian regime of Chinese Taipe under Chiang,then I can only advise you to come to China to obeserve the truth yourself.

Look no further than to Korean peninsula. One ethnicity with the same culture diverged that much in two different directions. Ideology is important and the influence is important, too. Taiwan was able to develop in this exact direction because it was backed by the US. China doesn't need that much to be backed or directed by anybody. And if there is no real influence, it is tough to change things.

LuDux
06-20-2009, 02:04 PM
Tweetgrid (http://tweetgrid.com/grid?l=12&q1=%23iranelection&q2=%23gr88&q3=%23iranrevolution&q4=from:persiankiwi%20OR%20from:IranElection09&q5=from:StopAhmadi%20OR%20from:Bahram81%20OR%20fro m:tehranelection&q6=from:iranriggedelect%20OR%20from:tehranbureau&q7=from:mousavi1388%20OR%20from:madzme&q8=from:2hamed%20OR%20from:Ghattavi&q9=from:change_for_iran%20%20OR%20from:madyar&q10=from:oxfordgirl%20OR%20from:azarnoush), bunch of tweets on one page

goga78
06-22-2009, 04:48 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election


The country's highest electoral authority, the Guardian Council, acknowledged on Monday that there were voting irregularities in 50 electoral districts, the most serious official admission so far of problems in the election. But the council insisted the problems do not affect the outcome of the vote.

The Guardian Council acknowledges that more votes were given up than there have been registered voters in 50 districts but the election is still valid? Great.

goga78
06-23-2009, 12:13 AM
Interesting news concerning the supposed schism in the highest clerical circles in Iran.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/21/76567.html

mvblair
06-23-2009, 05:03 PM
Interesting news concerning the supposed schism in the highest clerical circles in Iran.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/21/76567.html Great article. I would be very impressed if changes are made to Iran´s hierarchy.

Billy Bounce
06-24-2009, 06:01 PM
Authorities in Iran have banned four members of the country's national football (soccer) team for wearing green wristbands in a show of solidarity with anti-government demonstrators.

The display took place during a World Cup qualifying match last week in South Korea.

A pro-government Iranian newspaper says the players have been "retired" from the team.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-06-24-voa25.cfm

LuDux
06-25-2009, 04:20 PM
Speaking of China

1st part
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=755_1245731391

2nd part
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=794_1245730574

What happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Shishou_riot

mohsena2631
06-26-2009, 12:28 PM
Iranian tiananmen in youtube age !

http://www.roozonline.com/uploads/pics/car_2009_23june.jpg

goga78
06-26-2009, 02:18 PM
Bernard-Henri Levy on facebook:

http://windrosehotel.blogspot.com/2009/06/ahmadinejad-dreadful-video.html

BlacKOEIsle
06-27-2009, 09:57 AM
Speaking of China

1st part
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=755_1245731391

2nd part
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=794_1245730574

What happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Shishou_riot

There were rumors Tu was castrated.....

Still don't know the truth but nowadays "riots" are not rare in China,espeicially in the rural area.

And the major reason is Chinese people don't trust the local government.Foreigners often feel surprised that Chinese people believe in the central government but don't trust the local ones.....It's hard to explain the reason though.

BlacKOEIsle
06-27-2009, 10:07 AM
Iranian tiananmen in youtube age !

http://www.roozonline.com/uploads/pics/car_2009_23june.jpg

......Is Iran's situation that serious?

goga78
06-27-2009, 12:37 PM
There were rumors Tu was castrated.....

Still don't know the truth but nowadays "riots" are not rare in China,espeicially in the rural area.

And the major reason is Chinese people don't trust the local government.Foreigners often feel surprised that Chinese people believe in the central government but don't trust the local ones.....It's hard to explain the reason though.

Nah, that's nothing specifically Chinese. Same stuf in Russia throughout its whole history. Good czar, bad boyars (noblemen). Same situation in other authoritarian systems as well. The central power was always believed to be good and if it only knew, what their proxies were doing in the provinces, it would come to the rescue of the ordinary people.

mohsena2631
06-27-2009, 04:08 PM
......Is Iran's situation that serious?

no ! this is just a cartoon by this man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikahang_Kowsar) !

the situation is serious but there is no tank in the street ! but I think a Basiji or an Hezbollah member is more dangerous than a tank !

goga78
06-27-2009, 05:15 PM
but I think a Basiji or an Hezbollah member is more dangerous than a tank !

Right! It's not about the weapon itself, it's about who posesses it.

mohsena2631
06-30-2009, 11:18 PM
AN is the stupidest cheater I have ever seen !

Huge Gaffe from Iranian state run news agency while reporting the vote recount ! (http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-288225)

-------------------------------------

this video and this song made me cry again ! they didn't steal only the vote , They stole the hope ! :(

RCkSCP22t-Q

The Guardian Council confirmed the election. but "the story is not finished yet"

Karroubi apologized to the nation for his mistake ! (inviting people to this election show)

mohsena2631
07-08-2009, 02:58 AM
AN made his first live speech on the television after the fake election

check this out :D:D

qOhSKGvt37Q


anyhow, tomorrow is 18th of Tir (Iran student protests, July 1999) seems like another bloody day is coming.

mohsena2631
07-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Hashemi Rafsanjani had the sermon of his life some minutes ago

I found the summery on an Iranian site :



The moazzen is saying the azan.
Rafsanjani just got introduced to the podium.
Sound of loud chants we can’t make out.
Rafsanjani: Please sit down so we can make time for the speech.
Chants again. They’re not letting him speak. I can only make out “leader” in their chants. (the blood in our veins is a gift to our leader)
13:20 Rafsanjani: We are approaching the anniversary of the Friday prayers and today’s Friday prayer is in ways very similar to the first every prayers led by Ayatollah Taleqani. In hopes that we can use this prayer for the betterment of the future of our country and the goals of the revolution.
(Tehran radio is now cut off. The host just came on to announce that thousands of people are chanting Allah o Akbar in the streets. WTF?!)
13:23 Rafsanjani: I have a main part to my speech. It will be about the most critical aspects of Islam.
13:25 The second part of my speech will be about the goals of the revolution, the goals people have worked for and have given their blood for and have been the endeavors of our Imam [Khomeini].
13:26 The third part will be about current day events and the conditions we are in. I will try to draw out solutions the way I see them. Of course, these will be my personal opinion.
13:27 Rafsanjani is speaking of Mohammad, the prophet, and the early days of Islam. This will go on for the first part of his sermon.
13:34 Rafsanjani is still speaking of Mohammad’s early days as prophet and his attempts to establish rule in Medina.
13:36 He is reciting a sourah from the Koran and interpreting it.
13:41 Rafsanjani is getting teary. “The prophet respected the rights of all those under his rule.” He brings an example from the end of the prophet’s life where the prophet comes to the people and asks that if he ever treated anyone unfairly, they speak up and let him know.
13:44 The prophet felt, during the last years of his life, that animosity was brewing amongst his people [he is crying now]. The prophet felt that his old friends are now enemies.
13:46 The prophet went to Baghi [where his old friends were buried] and said to them: you are lucky that you are no longer here to see that your old brothers are killing and destroying one another.
———————-
The first part of the speech is over. The second has begun.
———————-
13:51 He begins (as is the custom) by mentioning the upcoming religious dates of significance (e.g., the death of the seventh Shi’a Imam)
13: 52 May all the oppressors who make innocent people bleed be a witness to eternal condemnation
[the chants begin again]
13:53 I asked you, I pleaded for you to let me speak.
[more chants]
13:54 Rafsanjani condemns China. People chanted “Death to China” . He asks that people stop their chants.
13:55 China has a rational government. It must look at how it can benefit from its relations with the Islamic world. We hope that we will no longer be witness to such atrocities towards Muslims in China or anywhere else in the world.
13:55 But coming to our own problems. We started off very well in the competition. Everything went well and smoothly.
13:56 People became very hopeful. Everything was set for a glorious day. This glory was due to the people. They were the ones who went to the ballot box. And we must be grateful to them.
13:57 I so very much wish that that path had been continued. But unfortunately, that was not the case. I will now elaborate. We must first see what we [probably the ruling establishment] were after. This is coming from a person who was always by the Imam[Khomeini’s] side [he is referring to himself]. For 60 years. The Imam was always after the people. After getting their approval and their participation. This was the art of the Imam which made him so successful. It took the Imam less than 20 years to get the people to come to the streets.
13:58 These people, the ones who were behind the Imam, broke the back of the Shah and brought him to his knees.
13:59 After the victory of the revolution too, we worked on a daily basis with the Imam. Imam would always say that if the system is not backed by the people, nothing would stand.
14:00 The Imam would always quote the prophet [Muhammad] who would say to Ali [Mohammad’s successor]: leave the people if they do not want you.
14:02 He is speaking of the Imam’s command to Bazargan to form a temporary government. But the Imam tells him to keep it short to pave the way for the constitution.
[loud chants]
14:03 We agreed that you will stop chanting. If we do not have the votes of the people behind us, we will have nothing. The guardian council, the expediency council, EVERYONE gets their legitimacy from the vote of the people.
14:04 Without Islam, without a republic, we have nothing. Ali [Imam Ali, the prophet’s successor] waited 19 years until the people came for him.
[more chants]
14:05 Stop chanting.
14:06 Why did the elections come to this? Before the election, near the end, some people doubted what was going to happen. Maybe because of the way the broadcasting corporation behaved.
14:07 Rafsanjani: Some are chanting and I can’t make out what they say. But I am speaking what you want to hear. I want unity too.
14:08 I have never acted across party lines, and now too we must search for unity to find a way out of our quandary.
14:09 I have some suggestions. I have spoken to some members of the the expediency council and the assembly of experts about them too.
14:10 We must bring back the trust of the people. First of all, everyone must accept the law. The people, the parliament, everyone.
14:11 We must create a condition so that everyone can speak. We must speak logically. And a part of this is on the shoulders of the broadcasting corporation.
14:12 The guardian council did not make good use of the extra fives days given to them by the leader.
14:13 We do not need people in prison for this. Let’s allow them to return to their families.
[More chants of Allah o Akbar]
14:14 We must join hands with those who have incurred great loss and try to lesson their pain.
14:15 We must give freedom to the press within the confines of the law.
[not a word of the government]
14:15 We are all members of the same family. We must remain friends and allies. Why have we gone so far as to pain some of our marajeh [top religious leaders]?
14:16 I hope this sermon will pave a way out of this current situation. A situation that can be considered a crisis.
14:17 The sermon is finished.
14:18 Two chants can be heard: the blood in our veins is a gift to our leader and Hashemi, Hashemi, may god keep you safe.

and now people are chanting "Death to the dictator", "death to China" and "death to Russia" on the streets ! (because China and Russia backed AN)

goga78
07-17-2009, 08:09 PM
Tell me, why are you guys constantly chanting "Death to xyz!". Is there no other possibility to make one's opinion public?

mohsena2631
07-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Tell me, why are you guys constantly chanting "Death to xyz!". Is there no other possibility to make one's opinion public?

first, people are using the government's own slogans against itself and the government's own allies, this is a VERY good idea.

at this video , Instead of following the loudspeakers death to US/Israel/England/infidels...people chant death to Russia each time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InKo75c-l1A

second, AN's governement are killing our compatriots, therefore people have the right to say "death to AN's friends". They also chanted death to Chavez today for the first time.

third, Marg bar x in persian is death to x, but It'd probably be more correct to translate it as "down with" rather than "death to".
"Death to Russia" means "condemn Russian government". no more !

LuDux
07-17-2009, 10:11 PM
third, Marg bar x in persian is death to x, but It'd probably be more correct to translate it as "down with" rather than "death to".
"Death to Russia" means "condemn Russian government". no more !

I heard the same explanation from government supporter (on CNN I think) after same phrase was used in chants during Ali Khamenei's first post-election public appearance


Mohsen Makhmalbaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohsen_Makhmalbaf) said on Persian BBC that "Ahmadinejad was in Russia, in order to ensure their backing against this uprising in exchange for caspian sea territory and other things." (http://loopyblog.free.fr/?p=700) and "used the term “russian backed coup d’etat” and comparing it directly the 1953 CIA-backed Coup d’etat against the Mossadegh"

mohsena2631
07-17-2009, 11:11 PM
Mohsen Makhmalbaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohsen_Makhmalbaf) said on Persian BBC that "Ahmadinejad was in Russia, in order to ensure their backing against this uprising in exchange for caspian sea territory and other things." (http://loopyblog.free.fr/?p=700) and "used the term “russian backed coup d’etat” and comparing it directly the 1953 CIA-backed Coup d’etat against the Mossadegh"

yes, true or false, many people think like Makhmalbaf.

today, in front of Tehran University (the place of friday prayer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azIIeWIWHBo

in the second half of the video, they are chanting "Russia haya kon, Keshvaramo Raha kon" (translate: Russia shame on you, leave my country)

mohsena2631
07-20-2009, 11:20 PM
The situation is getting more and more dangerous !

Khamenehei's threatened Rafsanjani !

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

"The elite should be watchful, since they have been faced with a big test. Failing the test will cause their collapse, Anybody who drives the society toward insecurity and disorder is a hated person in the view of the Iranian nation, whoever he is."

other headlines :

* Mousavi (to Khamenehei) : "You are facing something new: an awakened nation, a nation that has been born again and is here to defend its achievements."

* Khomeini's grandson (Hassan Khomeini) left the country ! he is a reformist.

* Ex-President Khatami had a meeting with families of the political prisoners and called for a Referendum !

This situation will come to a very good end or a very bad end ! there is no middle solution !

philkid81
08-06-2009, 12:48 PM
How's the situation now in Iran? Does the majority of the people support the current administration? From what I've seen in the news, some of the protesters are now afraid because of the crackdown of government forces. The opposition are slowly succumbing to the pressures from the government. Someone really needs to step up to unite the people together or else it will be a lost cause.

mohsena2631
08-06-2009, 03:21 PM
How's the situation now in Iran? Does the majority of the people support the current administration? From what I've seen in the news, some of the protesters are now afraid because of the crackdown of government forces. The opposition are slowly succumbing to the pressures from the government. Someone really needs to step up to unite the people together or else it will be a lost cause.

the situation is tense, full of enmity and disappointment ! I can swear more than 80% are against AN in my town Tehran. everyday we find another innocent who killed by these bastards and these news make people more and more angry. even most of top clerics are against AN but he has Sepah and IRIB instead and he is still in charge because of them but the opposition (Mousavi/Karroubi/Khatami) still didn't give up. and the situation is absolutely unpredictable.

but I am sure this is the begin of the end of IR ! IR will fall one day but I can't predict when ! remember Islamic revolution succeed after 15 years.

Note: AN=Ahmadinejad / also AN means shit in persian.

philkid81
08-07-2009, 02:54 PM
the situation is tense, full of enmity and disappointment ! I can swear more than 80% are against AN in my town Tehran. everyday we find another innocent who killed by these bastards and these news make people more and more angry. even most of top clerics are against AN but he has Sepah and IRIB instead and he is still in charge because of them but the opposition (Mousavi/Karroubi/Khatami) still didn't give up. and the situation is absolutely unpredictable.

but I am sure this is the begin of the end of IR ! IR will fall one day but I can't predict when ! remember Islamic revolution succeed after 15 years.

Note: AN=Ahmadinejad / also AN means shit in persian.

I Hope you would have a peaceful revolution just like what our country did with the former strongman Ferdinand Marcos.

mohsena2631
08-08-2009, 10:40 AM
I Hope you would have a peaceful revolution just like what our country did with the former strongman Ferdinand Marcos.

I hope, I wish, but these bastards blocked almost all peaceful ways. they hide behind the religion to try and justify their criminal acts.

elaj
06-08-2010, 05:28 PM
Don't know where to put this but its worth watching...

F48SinuEHIk

Khalid80
06-08-2010, 09:40 PM
Don't know where to put this but its worth watching...

F48SinuEHIk

Thanks Elaj for the documentary. Just finished watching it and was amazed that they were able to get that much extensive info. with video clips.

batgirl
06-09-2010, 10:53 PM
After just a few minutes watching i knew its propaganda by whities, no more no less, then i stop watching altogether.

mohsena2631
06-10-2010, 03:54 PM
Thanks Elaj for the documentary. Just finished watching it and was amazed that they were able to get that much extensive info. with video clips.

all of these clips are available in youtube, they just collect them (and of course this is a good collection) only the interview with her family is new. I admire the journalist who took these interviews. he put his life in danger.

I think the first 10/15 mins is a little exaggerating (about women's situation in Iran) but the rest is a true story. very true and to me the saddest story of my life.
saturday is 22 Khordad (12 June) , a year passed so quick !

Khalid80
06-11-2010, 10:05 PM
saturday is 22 Khordad (12 June) , a year passed so quick !

Is it possible that may Iranian citizens might try to have a demonstration commemorating the lives of those people that were lost in the tragic event from last year? Or are they scared that the government and basij will prevent them from doing so?

kerouac82
06-12-2010, 03:46 AM
After just a few minutes watching i knew its propaganda by whities, no more no less, then i stop watching altogether.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you've got Iranian people in this forum agreeing with most of the video, your opinion means squat.

mohsena2631
06-12-2010, 10:26 AM
Is it possible that may Iranian citizens might try to have a demonstration commemorating the lives of those people that were lost in the tragic event from last year? Or are they scared that the government and basij will prevent them from doing so?

yes for sure, There (unfortunately I'm not in Tehran now) will be another demonstration today but I am not sure about the number of demonstrators. last year on 15 July, at least 3 millions (accroding to Tehran mayor) came to streets. I know the same won't happen.