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robbe
01-25-2008, 10:14 AM
Though a 85-37 defeat is quite harsh, I don't really understand all those tears being shed these days on domestic basketball discussion boards about a deliberate "shame" for German basketball. A loss by 38 points is not so special, it happens in European club competition. What makes it eye catching is the mediocre 37 total points scored by Bamberg. But one has to understand that this is a team that will ignore every fastbreak opportunity in order to slow down the game and make the opponent play at their very slow halfcourt pace. Their games are often enough in the fifties, even in Germany. They are limited offensively. If they have a bad day, yes, it can happen to be less. Combine that with some injuries and the usual inferiority in European competition, and you might get this kind of result. This is the current state of German basketball. The game made that clear, and that is maybe the only thing to be considered "shameful". Yet most of us didn't need this particular game to know that. Especially away from home, there is nothing to win for German teams, and this has been the case for several years now.

The German NT has had these kinds of blowouts too in the near past, just remember how they were humiliated by the Slovenians in Spain '07, even with Dirk playing. The connection is the fact that the majority of the NT's players play in Bamberg.

Here some facts. I think they explain themselves.

E U R O L E A G U E

ALBA Berlin
Season 03/04: 3 wins – 11 losses; 8th (out of 8 teams) 1st Group Stage Euroleague
Season 02/03: 4 – 10; 7th (out of 8 teams) 1st Group Stage Euroleague
Overall Record: 7 – 21
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 times (2 possibilities)

Brose Baskets
Season 07/08: 2 – 11; 8th (out of 8 teams) 1st Group Stage Euroleague
Season 05/06: 7 – 7; 5th (out of 8 teams) 1st Group Stage Euroleague
Season 05/06: 0 – 6; 4th (out of 4 teams) 2nd Group Stage Euroleague
Overall Record: 9 – 24
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 1 (2)

Cologne 99ers
Season 06/07: 2 – 12; 8th (out of 8 teams) 1st Group Stage Euroleague
Overall Record: 2 – 12
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (1)

DB Skyliners Frankfurt
Season 04/05: 4 – 10; 7th (out of 8 teams) 1st Group Stage Euroleague
Overall Record: 4 – 10
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (1)

Overall Euroleague Record: 22 – 67
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 1 (6)


U L E B – C U P

ALBA Berlin
Season 07/08: 4 – 6; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 06/07: 4 – 6; 4th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 06/07: 0 – 2; Loser 1/8 Finals ULEB – Cup
Season 05/06: 3 – 7; 6th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 04/05: 4 – 6; 4th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 15 - 27
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 1 (4)

Brose Baskets
Season 06/07: 4 – 6; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 04/05: 5 – 5; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 5 – 5
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (2)

Telekom Baskets Bonn
Season 04/05: 5 – 5; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 03/04: 3 – 7; 6th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 02/03: 4 – 6; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 12 – 18
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (3)

NY Phantoms Braunschweig
Season 03/04: 2 – 8; 6th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 2 – 8
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (1)

Cologne 99ers
Season 07/08: 6 – 4; 3th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 04/05: 6 – 4; 3rd (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 04/05: 1 – 1; Loser 1/8 Finals ULEB – Cup
Season 03/04: 6 – 4; 3rd (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 03/04: 1 – 1; Loser 1/8 Finals ULEB – Cup
Season 02/03: 6 – 4; 3rd (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 03/04: 0 – 2; Loser 1/8 Finals ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 26 – 20
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 4 (4)

DB Skyliners Frankfurt
Season 07/08: 0 – 10; 6th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 05/06: 0 – 10; 6th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 03/04: 6 – 4; 4th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Season 02/03: 3 – 7; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 9 – 31
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (4)

ENBW Ludwigsburg
Season 07/08: 3 – 7; 5th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 3 – 7
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 0 (1)

Artland Dragons Quakenbrück
Season 07/08: 5 – 5; 4th (out of 6 teams) Group Stage ULEB – Cup
Overall Record: 5 – 5
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 1 (1)

Overall ULEB – Cup Record: 81 – 127
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 6 (20)
ULEB – Cup Starting Slots Season 07/08: 5 :p

Overall League Record all competitions: 103 - 194
Advanced after 1st Group Stage: 7 (26)


T A K E O U T S:

RheinEnergie Cologne - Tau Ceramica 70 - 102
ALBA BERLIN - EFES PILSEN ISTANBUL 63 - 84
OPEL SKYLINERS - ULKER ISTANBUL 52 - 82
BENETTON BASKET - OPEL SKYLINERS 93 - 60
CLIMAMIO BOLOGNA - GHP BAMBERG 94 - 64
Tau Ceramica - RheinEnergie 97 - 68
BENETTON TREVISO - ALBA BERLIN 91 - 65
Telekom Baskets Bonn - Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius 58:87
Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius - Telekom Baskets Bonn 88:60
WWF Virtus Bologna - Telekom Baskets Bonn 98:73
Gravelines - Telekom Baskets Bonn 88:63
Deutsche Bank vs. Le Mans 57-85
Caprabo Lleida vs. RheinEnergie 88-65
Crvena Zvezda vs. Deutsche Bank 91-57
Le Mans Sarthe vs. BS|Energy 86-64
Deutsche Bank vs. Dynamo Moscow 49-73
Auna vs. RheinEnergie 90-63 F
Brose Baskets vs. SLUC Nancy 49:83
Deutsche Bank vs. Crvena Zvezda 62-89
Siauliai - Alba Berlin 71 - 51
Anwil Wloclawek - D. Bank Skyliners 87 - 64
BC Kyiv - Artland Dragons 87 - 66
Lukoil Academic - Artland Dragons 109 - 65

Of course, some opponents were high calibres, but still...

One funny stat: The DB Skyliners Frankfurt are currently on a 0-24 run in European competition. :p

So get used to it. But maybe I'm posting on the wrong board.

german
01-25-2008, 11:53 AM
Please delete. It is to hard to read this. ;) :( :(

Booker-T
01-25-2008, 12:12 PM
A loss by 38 points is not so special (...)

It was 48 points (85:37). ;)

Trifilli
01-25-2008, 12:27 PM
One just has to face that german basketball is mediocre at best atm, the BBL is not even close to the top leagues in europe - and in times of the better Euroleague teams investing more money and creating more professional structures, the gap is not getting smaller.

There's no shame in these results, many people are getting lured by smaller differences against top teams in games that don't matter much, but forget that these teams can play much better, and will do so at a more important stage of the season.

Or they get carried away by wins against teams of an equal or lower level, forgetting that it is much more difficult to hold your own against european top teams. The best example for that is Bambergs 2005-2006 Euroleague campaign, when they had the luck to face three struggling sides (AEK, Olimpija, Strasbourg), beating only one strong side (Benetton), but advancing to the Top16 with 7 wins.
Bamberg suffered some blowout losses in the same season as well (at Bologna, at Vitoria-Gasteiz, at Kaunas) and couldn't win a single game in the Top16 - but people accepted it, as they were happy with the team winning 7 games and reaching the next stage.

This season Bamberg had a more difficult group and didn't have the same luck/mental strength of the 2005-2006 season (in the two games vs. Olimpija) in the two games vs. Chorale Roanne. In addition to that this seasons team plays a completely unwatchable basketball, making the game slow with every possibility to do so, ignoring every fastbreak opportunity, like robbe said, and being absolutely harmless on the offensive end.
If we add the, let's say "unlucky", transfer policy of Bamberg this season, it becomes more and more clear why many people react the way they currently do on some domestic german boards.

The level of play of Bamberg and other german teams in Europe didn't change much though, once again, this is the current state of german basketball, and a lot of things need to be done in order to change that (scouting would be an interesting topic for example) - but that's a story for other posts :p

robbe
01-25-2008, 12:41 PM
It was 48 points (85:37).
Damn...you're so right.