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Levenspiel
09-09-2019, 05:07 PM
Sep 11, Wednesday; 7:00pm China time; 1:00pm CET

is this the toughest game for the US yet? I think it is. What do you expect?

madmax
09-09-2019, 05:58 PM
France is my pick.
Sorry USA, they are just too tall and physical for your scrawny team:cool:

Darrell Armstrong
09-09-2019, 06:03 PM
Can go either way, but among all the remaining teams I think France is the worst possible matchup for Team USA.

ZaliaBalta
09-09-2019, 06:06 PM
France is taking this. +12 for France. Quote me after the game.

usagre
09-09-2019, 06:19 PM
I am still confident the US will win this game. Tatum probably will play and France doesnít have enough scoring. Batum and Gobert donít scare me at all offensively and I think we will limit Fournier and De Colo enough. They donít have enough fire power to beat us.

The USA-Serbia semifinal will be the Gold medal game, and that game is a toss up.

Modis
09-09-2019, 06:37 PM
I am still confident the US will win this game. Tatum probably will play and France doesn’t have enough scoring. Batum and Gobert don’t scare me at all offensively and I think we will limit Fournier and De Colo enough. They don’t have enough fire power to beat us.

The USA-Serbia semifinal will be the Gold medal game, and that game is a toss up.

Against US you really have to show character, which Serbia has and France i don't think so but we will se. It has to be personal ;) enough of this US constant domination LETS GO !!! Les Bleus !!!

Dirtyh
09-09-2019, 06:37 PM
I'm supporting France heavily but I think they have very slim change. Australia is only team that has guards who can match USA's and even they need extremely good day. That slim change is that if France will have red hot shooting day and USA shows something similar that they had against Turkey, then we'll have ball game. It is huge disappointment but USA's going to win it again.

vivo
09-09-2019, 06:59 PM
I just want De Colo to get to İstanbul safe and sound, but I feel like Gobert will be a pain in the ass for USA and it won't be an easy game

Buzissa
09-10-2019, 12:06 AM
I am still confident the US will win this game. Tatum probably will play and France doesnít have enough scoring. Batum and Gobert donít scare me at all offensively and I think we will limit Fournier and De Colo enough. They donít have enough fire power to beat us.

The USA-Serbia semifinal will be the Gold medal game, and that game is a toss up.

Heurtel would do some good for France in this game.
He was key in that 2014 QF against Spain. That one was also Gobert's breakout game.

For this one the recipe is pretty much the same. Keep it a low-scoring game and France will have a shot at winning it. Doesn't look impossible.

3.14159
09-10-2019, 01:09 AM
I am still confident the US will win this game. Tatum probably will play and France doesn’t have enough scoring. Batum and Gobert don’t scare me at all offensively and I think we will limit Fournier and De Colo enough. They don’t have enough fire power to beat us.

The USA-Serbia semifinal will be the Gold medal game, and that game is a toss up.

France would have beaten the Aussies if Baynes hadn't gone Steph Curry from 3 lol.
If Gobert plays heavy minutes and avoids foul trouble, they can really clog that paint and make it hard for the US. if I was coaching France, I'm forcing this US squad to beat me from 3, which is a solid risk to take in an elimination game.
Batum may be a little washed up, but he's still a talented scorer capable of going off when determined. I mean, look at what Varejao did today... He looked like he was in his prime again.
Fournier and De Colo lit it up today. Not sure they will replicate that performance in the QFs, but will definitely cause trouble.
IMO France is a tougher matchup for this US squad than Serbia because they have that defensive anchor in Gobert and 2-3 very capable scorers.

Nemanja
09-10-2019, 10:47 AM
I dont remember of tournament where in knock out phase wasnt surprise .Slovenia on Eurobasket 2017, Australia and Serbia Olympics 2016 ,Lithuania on Eurobasket 2015, Serbia on World Cup 2014,France and Lithuania Eurobasket 2013,Russia Olympics 2012 . On this World Cup potentially surprises are win of France against Usa,Czechia or Argentina placed in semi-final.Since semi-final ,only Australia could win Usa,what isnt pretty possible . Though ,if wouldnt surprise in quarter-final ,no many chances will be in continuation of tournament .On predictions I put France and Argentina,I think at leasto ne of them will win .I wish to be France,but basketball dont play due my wishes .If France win against Usa,France probably win World Cup ,Serbia,Spain,Argentina, would be in underdog situation ,Austrlaia still win once,what is more difficult to win twice and Australia probably will fail how tournament lasts .

DanMajerle
09-10-2019, 02:16 PM
France is a very good matchup for Team USA.

France is like the "Team USA" of Europe in playstyle, being the most athletic european team and this being their biggest advantage. France won't have this advantage vs USA, I expect an easy 8-15 point win for Team USA.

SaliH
09-10-2019, 02:53 PM
I have a feeling that France has the potential to upset the US. Americans are just very far away from being the dominant team they used to be in the last few tournaments and they are far from being unbeatable.

Darrell Armstrong
09-10-2019, 04:12 PM
France is a very good matchup for Team USA.

France is like the "Team USA" of Europe in playstyle, being the most athletic european team and this being their biggest advantage. France won't have this advantage vs USA, I expect an easy 8-15 point win for Team USA.

This is one quite old trope. France has all the tools to give hell to Team USA. Not saying they will win, but it's certainly not a good matchup. They have ballhandlers used to NBA speed and defences (Ntlikina, De Colo, Fournier), they have good shooters to prevent the americans to collapse the middle, and they have the top defensive center in the world to protect the rim and snatch rebounds. The biggest weapon in this tournament for Team USA has been their ability to get second chances and outrebound all opponents. Won't be that easy against France.

Dtown
09-10-2019, 10:13 PM
I wonder how many Serbian fans will be openly rooting for the USA (or at least openly rooting against the French)

christodoulou76
09-10-2019, 10:15 PM
I wonder how many Serbian fans will be openly rooting for the USA (or at least openly rooting against the French)

interest in directly qualifying for the Olympics demands that they do so. why would they want to subject themselves to the rigmarole of an OQT?

ncjazz
09-11-2019, 01:18 AM
The time of this game really sucks for Central Time in the US. Guess I could try to get to work early to at least watch the end of the game. I am hoping Mitchell will put a big slamma jamma on Gobert. :D

Katastroika
09-11-2019, 10:53 AM
Most Serbians do not expect anything of the game against France/USA loser so they are quite uninterested but if I could chose of course I would take France.

For today I expect a very good and hard game. Like Darrell said, France is maybe the worst matchup for Team USA in all tournament.

christodoulou76
09-11-2019, 11:22 AM
close game so far. fournier has taken a million shots already and missed most of them. mitchell starts off well and is rewarded by being benched. turner two quick fouls. gobert dominant inside as expected.

MrRager
09-11-2019, 11:28 AM
Is Mathias Lessort the son of Coolio?

https://wealtholino.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Coolio-Net-Worth-Bio-Age-Height.jpg

Katastroika
09-11-2019, 11:30 AM
Albicy really surprises me at this tournament. He looked awful in prep games.

bballcrazy
09-11-2019, 11:41 AM
Albicy really surprises me at this tournament. He looked awful in prep games.

Hes schooling Walker with his defense. Pretty suprising walker who is a excellent ballhandler having lots of problem.

Katastroika
09-11-2019, 11:43 AM
Perfect gameplan of Collet until now. America has huge problems with this matchup zones. If they don't start hitting threes they are in serious problems.

Shawshank
09-11-2019, 11:50 AM
If Gobert wont get in faul trouble this can be very interesting ending.This is key for this game.

Shawshank
09-11-2019, 12:30 PM
Pop put all their 3 centers on the bench and put 5 mobile players this seems to saved USA tournament.

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 12:35 PM
France is protesting for not applying the NBA's continuation rules :)

MrRager
09-11-2019, 12:36 PM
Lol did FIBA really put ref from Philippines to officiate in such an important game? :D

Katastroika
09-11-2019, 12:40 PM
Looks like today's the day. Incredibly imbecile sets from US in close games. Same like agianst Turkey. Central pick and Iso. Low post and Iso. Always the same. Kemba from half distance. etc. etc.

JGX
09-11-2019, 12:43 PM
wtf smart is usually a good ft shooter

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 12:44 PM
wtf smart is usually a good ft shooter

I really want the US to lose this game by missed FTs... please...:D

madmax
09-11-2019, 12:51 PM
A very logical and expected final result really - a much smarter and more talented team prevailed here:cool: Now watch argies win the whole damn thing lmao

Katastroika
09-11-2019, 12:52 PM
Congratulation to the Frenchmen. Proud of European basketball. What a team!

AmonRA
09-11-2019, 12:52 PM
therefore, we got predicted final game(usa-srb) in match for 5th-7th place..

Cojayar
09-11-2019, 12:54 PM
I really want the US to lose this game by missed FTs... please...:D

It looks like your wishes are going to happen.

madmax
09-11-2019, 12:55 PM
therefore, we got predicted final game(usa-srb) in match for 5th-7th place..

Hallelujah to that;)

Cojayar
09-11-2019, 12:56 PM
therefore, we got predicted final game(usa-srb) in match for 5th-7th place..

Tomorrow at 1pm CET. :-D

JGX
09-11-2019, 12:57 PM
Oh well. Qualified for the Olympics which was the important thing. Knocked Serbia out of the auto qualifying spots too. Would be happy to see France win it.

Probably 50-50 chance we lose to Poland in the 7th place game now.

usagre
09-11-2019, 12:57 PM
Congrats to France they deserve it. Alarming sign right off the bat was that Tatum didnít play. Puts the urgency or importance of this game into perspective. Missed an entire week and most likely wouldnít have missed any games with that injury if this was the NBA playoffs. No broadcast team even sent to cover the tournament was fitting as well. Two guys whispering the play by play from a studio says a lot as well.

The Us will lose to Serbia and win the last game because they couldnít lose that game even if they tried. This USA team and especially the coach did not deserve to be part of the previous USA winning teams so I feel good about that.
Best part for me is that the great Popovich will take this to his grave which is probably not that far from now.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:03 PM
I think Popovich was surprised Gobert was on the French team judging by how he coached the game. That’s their only advantage. All of our wings are better than Batum, we have like 5 Fournier’s on our team and the great Pop managed to screw it up. I said 2 years ago when he was hired that it was a huge mistake. I said keep him as far away from this team and the success that Coach K had to rebuild after Pop and his fellow coaches George Karl and Larry Brown managed to screw up. But it’s fitting. Popovich has been on the coaching staff of every Us disaster team ever. 2002, 2004 and 2019.
No coincidence.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:06 PM
A couple of thoughts on Us players. Kyrie Irving was a headache for the Boston Celtics but they will quickly realize that Kemba Walker is no Kyrie Irving. Not even in his dreams.

Kris Middleton was the biggest bust after Pop of the entire team. Milwaukee is probably second guessing their decision to give him a max deal. Heís not a number two on a championship team, probably not even a number 3.

Nemanja
09-11-2019, 01:07 PM
Congrats to France for keeping dignity of European basketball .If any deserved to win haughty Usa ,that is France ,with basketball and human qualities.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:07 PM
Hopefully the great Popovich dies of natural causes by next summer and we get a real coach. Probably a decent chance of this happening considering.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:10 PM
Maybe in his postgame the great Pop can discuss gun violence, racial inequality and some other important issue like he did during preparation training camp. These issues were in the forefront of his so called mind and not basketball. Like I said run for political office if thatís whatís important to you. Donít bring that into coaching this team.

HeinrichMohr
09-11-2019, 01:11 PM
Congrats to all French fans here! When everyone was thinking about a Serbia-USA semifinal... oh la la, France-Argentina.

soulis79
09-11-2019, 01:11 PM
France did a great job. Ntilikina was the X-factor of the game, on the other hand Albicy was a disaster. Ntilikina bossed opposite guards, Gobert was a fantastic inside presence and Fournier is the go to guy for this team. France new their roles from the beginning of the tournament.

On the other hand it wasn't clear who will take the ball in last minutes. It seems that USA had no plan for situation like this and finally coaching staff didn't trust at all their big men.

P.S. This was the first win ever for France versus the USA.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:13 PM
A positive that will come out of this debacle is that the charade is over. Like I said a million times on this forum, if the media and fans don’t recognize or care about this tournament the players will logically follow. I am 100% sure that 2023 team will be a G league USA team. Take it to the bank.

Dtown
09-11-2019, 01:13 PM
Congrats to France, missed most of the game since I had work obligations, but the absence of Tatum was always going to be a problem with our lack of size.

It's probably a good thing for the sport this US team didn't win, it felt lacking pretty much all tournament. If the US won this year I don't know if we'd ever see major stars again.

Probably a little bitterness on my part, but this loss is easier to take since it didn't happen to one of the larger fanbases on this board. I can live with Spain, Argentina, France, and Australia or Czech Republic as champion.




Best part for me is that the great Popovich will take this to his grave which is probably not that far from now.

Man that's a bit much. Perfectly fine to hate Pop as a coach and putting the blame on him, but talking about his death and not only implying it's looming but a good thing is way over the line.

Edit: Since you doubled down



Hopefully the great Popovich dies of natural causes by next summer and we get a real coach. Probably a decent chance of this happening considering.

Classy dude, classy.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:14 PM
On the other hand it wasn't clear who will take the ball in last minutes. It seems that USA had no plan for situation like this and finally coaching staff didn't trust at all their big men.
.

Absolutely. 2 words, Greg Popovich. Actually 4 words, the great Greg Popovich.

greenarcher
09-11-2019, 01:17 PM
How does USA qualify for the olympics now?

Dtown
09-11-2019, 01:17 PM
How does USA qualify for the olympics now?

They already did.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:17 PM
Man that's a bit much. Perfectly fine to hate Pop as a coach and putting the blame on him, but talking about his death and not only implying it's looming but a good thing is way over the line.

Edit: Since you doubled down



Classy dude, classy.

Relax dude it’s all in fun I don’t wish harm on anyone. Just angry because the media is not going to hold him accountable.
They will let him slide just like they did after he single handedly blew the 2013 NBA Finals. For me that’s probably the worst part of all of this.

Jon_Koncak
09-11-2019, 01:19 PM
7 points in the last 8 minutes wont get it done.I said it from the first time,this team couldnt score for shit.If it wasnt for one man show of Mitchel in the first 3 quarters it would be another barely 65 point game

Also USA must have the worst medical team in the championship.A slight sprained ankle and Tatum is out forever it seems.Meanwhile Schilb plays already 3 days after a similar injury.Campazzo sprained his ankle 3 days before the start and you saw how he played.

JGX
09-11-2019, 01:19 PM
A couple of thoughts on Us players. Kyrie Irving was a headache for the Boston Celtics but they will quickly realize that Kemba Walker is no Kyrie Irving. Not even in his dreams.


Definitely a big downgrade from Kyrie.

Even relative to low expectations, Lopez and Plumlee were terrible. With an already shorthanded roster you can't afford to have two guys who can't play, and with the smaller lineup they were badly outrebounded today.

Jon_Koncak
09-11-2019, 01:21 PM
Congrats to France for keeping dignity of European basketball .If any deserved to win haughty Usa ,that is France ,with basketball and human qualities.

Funny how France now represents european basketball while on eurobasket they are team Africa according to many.Also France is the least european team of Europe.Today they won because of their NBA stars who left Bertomeuland as soon as possible.

Tevfik1907
09-11-2019, 01:22 PM
We didn't have De Colo, France had ;)

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:24 PM
7 points in the last 8 minutes wont get it done.I said it from the first time,this team couldnt score for shit.If it wasnt for one man show of Mitchel in the first 3 quarters it would be another barely 65 point game

Also USA must have the worst medical team in the championship.A slight sprained ankle and Tatum is out forever it seems.Meanwhile Schilb plays already 3 days after a similar injury.Campazzo sprained his ankle 3 days before the start and you saw how he played.

The Tatum thing was a joke and summed everything up perfectly. And you were right about Usa and I was wrong, the end of game scoring was a problem. Check this out:

7 points in last 6 minutes vs Czechs.
6 points in last 6 minutes vs Japan
8 points in last 7 minutes vs Greece
6 points in last 6 minutes vs Brazil.

Victorious
09-11-2019, 01:24 PM
So the best 10-12 players decide not to show up, and the next 12 best players of the United States of America do not manage to get past the quarter finals. USA basketball is simply overrated. Their weakness is overshadowed by the good results which are obtained by the top team.

Darrell Armstrong
09-11-2019, 01:24 PM
This is one quite old trope. France has all the tools to give hell to Team USA. Not saying they will win, but it's certainly not a good matchup. They have ballhandlers used to NBA speed and defences (Ntlikina, De Colo, Fournier), they have good shooters to prevent the americans to collapse the middle, and they have the top defensive center in the world to protect the rim and snatch rebounds. The biggest weapon in this tournament for Team USA has been their ability to get second chances and outrebound all opponents. Won't be that easy against France.

Nailed it!

Valexander
09-11-2019, 01:25 PM
A couple of thoughts on Us players. Kyrie Irving was a headache for the Boston Celtics but they will quickly realize that Kemba Walker is no Kyrie Irving. Not even in his dreams.

Kris Middleton was the biggest bust after Pop of the entire team. Milwaukee is probably second guessing their decision to give him a max deal. Heís not a number two on a championship team, probably not even a number 3.

although a bit irrelative, i ve been thinking before the tournament that Milwaukee are really overrated this season, including bet companies. i am almost sure that if i find a bet against them (for example NOT reaching ECF) i am gonna be paid good..

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:26 PM
.Today they won because of their NBA stars who left Bertomeuland as soon as possible.

Yeah Poirier didn’t even play.

Jon_Koncak
09-11-2019, 01:27 PM
So the best 10-12 players decide not to show up, and the next 12 best players of the United States of America do not manage to get past the quarter finals. USA basketball is simply overrated. Their weakness is overshadowed by the good results which are obtained by the top team.

USA basketball might be overrated but an all star euroleague team (Greece) lost to Nymburk so there is that

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 01:27 PM
Maybe in his postgame the great Pop can discuss gun violence, racial inequality and some other important issue like he did during preparation training camp. These issues were in the forefront of his so called mind and not basketball. Like I said run for political office if thatís whatís important to you. Donít bring that into coaching this team.
hey, it's your country's team, but unless he was taking valuable time and focus away from his job, he and anyone really can talk about anything they want... it's more important when a person of his stature talks... I respect this guy a lot more because of his courage than any titles he could have won...

I also wish him a very long life. ;)

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:27 PM
although a bit irrelative, i ve been thinking before the tournament that Milwaukee are really overrated this season, including bet companies. i am almost sure that if i find a bet against them (for example NOT reaching ECF) i am gonna be paid good..

Yeah I did last year when I picked Toronto to come out of the East. Never trusted Milwaukee. And now even less so with no Brogdon and after seeing Middleton in this tournament.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:29 PM
hey, it's your country's team, but unless he was taking valuable time and focus away from his job, he and anyone really can talk about anything they want... it's more important when a person of his stature talks... I respect this guy a lot more because of his courage than any titles he could have won...


He can talk about anything he wants on his own time. Not when he’s coaching the US in a tournament. That’s his job.
And he did a pretty bad one at that. As coach of San Antonio it’s up to his owner and the fans if they allow him to get away with that stuff. No politics when you’re coaching team USA please. Represent all of us and not just your political agenda.

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 01:31 PM
Hopefully the great Popovich dies of natural causes by next summer and we get a real coach. Probably a decent chance of this happening considering.
so, you're saying the USA could have won it with this roster, but Pop failed. He obviously did. but which coach could do it better with this roster?

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:31 PM
So the best 10-12 players decide not to show up, and the next 12 best players of the United States of America do not manage to get past the quarter finals. USA basketball is simply overrated. Their weakness is overshadowed by the good results which are obtained by the top team.

More accurate would be 2 out of the top 30 players played today for team USA. Thatís a fact. But itís irrelevant because Pop would have bungled it with better players anyway.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:34 PM
so, you're saying the USA could have won it with this roster, but Pop failed. He obviously did. but which coach could do it better with this roster?

Anyone. He did not truly have defined roles for his players. And the ones he did were wrong. Middleton should have started over Harris. He probably lost Middleton right there. Middleton is a starter an a borderline all star. Harris is a bench player.
Why reverse their roles ? That’s just a no brainer. The offense looked awful all tournament long. I can’t see how any coach could have gotten less from this unit.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:37 PM
Another Pop blunder was his use of Barnes and constantly deferring to him because he had won a gold medal as the 12th man in 2016 who never played. Just dumb. Barnes is a mediocre player who if is not hitting his outside shot brings absolutely nothing to the table. Jaylen Brown should have had a much larger role than him throughout the tournament.

Tevfik1907
09-11-2019, 01:38 PM
USA basketball might be overrated but an all star euroleague team (Greece) lost to Nymburk so there is that

Satoransky would be in an all star euroleague team. It's not exactly Nymburk.

ZaliaBalta
09-11-2019, 01:41 PM
France is taking this. +12 for France. Quote me after the game.

well what can i say, close enough

Valexander
09-11-2019, 01:42 PM
USA basketball might be overrated but an all star euroleague team (Greece) lost to Nymburk so there is that

Actually we didn't loose by czechs..
we lost by the brazilian all star veteran's championship. And that adds more to your point.

Dtown
09-11-2019, 01:42 PM
So the best 10-12 players decide not to show up, and the next 12 best players of the United States of America do not manage to get past the quarter finals. USA basketball is simply overrated. Their weakness is overshadowed by the good results which are obtained by the top team.

Calling this the next best 12 is very generous to the guys on the floor.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:45 PM
Jayson Tatum not playing sent the worst message possible to the rest of the team. They obviously were aware of his condition and were probably shocked and kind of put the meaning of these games into perspective for them.

Well guys enjoy the rest of the tournament. I don’t watch consolation games. Didn’t in 2002 either. Absolutely pointless.
The exhibition preparation games are 100x more interesting and have meaning because they are building towards something. This has no meaning. Although further humiliation for Pop would be just fine by me.

Darrell Armstrong
09-11-2019, 01:48 PM
I don't know if you can blame the coach or the players, but the fuckup when there was less than a minute and no one quickly fouled a french player to stop the clock, allowing 10 extremely valuable seconds to pass by, and at the same time leaving the ball in the hands of De Colo instead of another player with worse shooting and less poise... that was priceless.

Worse yet, they had a similar shortcircuit a couple plays down the line, again allowing France to run down the clock instead of going for a quick foul, and then Middleton risked an unsportmanlike foul. Simply put, this wasn't a real team. Either they go for a long-term program keeping key players in the team for years, or they bring all the big guns and try to drown opponents in talent. Otherwise, we'll see a lot of early exits in the next tournaments. No one (but Japan) is afraid now of NBA players and it doesn't take a perfect game to beat them as before.

Shawshank
09-11-2019, 01:52 PM
USA maybe have like top 25 out 30 world's best players.But after those top 30 other players are humans and can be beaten.Basketball world send clear message to USA those days when USA could dominate win with u-23 player's are over.

Ofcourse most likely this lost mean we gonna see A USA team in Olympics :)

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:53 PM
USA has 10 losses counting exhibitions in history of using NBA players. Popovich on the bench as coach or lead assistant for 9 of them. Lol. You can’t make it up.

usagre
09-11-2019, 01:58 PM
The USA had four great offensive options. Two of them getting it done in a game would have been enough.
Mitchell came through, Kemba was awful, Tatum sat with a questionable injury and a Pop ruined Middleton from the start with his use of him. Thatís why they lost. They still would have won even with Gobert looking like Wilt Chamberlain playing against guys a foot shorter in the Ď50ís. Pop brings Plumlee and Lopez on the roster and then goes small ball against Gobert. Who was he saving them for ?

Victorious
09-11-2019, 02:09 PM
Calling this the next best 12 is very generous to the guys on the floor.

Well, at the end of the day you need to make a selection in order to make a squad. Not everyone fits in the system. One can always doubt whether it is the best possible selection. Point is, without the obvious top notch stars like Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden etc. nothing is guaranteed for the USA in tournaments like these. But we never had the opportunity to witness it in practice.

Straight forward
09-11-2019, 02:12 PM
Three of the top contenders knocked out? Cool, super interesting WC.

Nemanja
09-11-2019, 02:23 PM
Funny how France now represents european basketball while on eurobasket they are team Africa according to many.Also France is the least european team of Europe.Today they won because of their NBA stars who left Bertomeuland as soon as possible.

I dont care for others ,I dont think ,every national team must have all players ,or almost all players,who are 4th generation in that country. I dont have such view on state.I have sympathy France since 2003, I like how things work in this team ,they are good persons ,there are no flaunt of their best players,who is exemple for others .

Straight forward
09-11-2019, 02:26 PM
So it seems France winning it all right? They getting it it done at D end with bigger extent than Spain and Australia do. And France has probably best 2 player punch (De Colo, Fournier) to finish the game.

usagre
09-11-2019, 02:27 PM
Well, at the end of the day you need to make a selection in order to make a squad. Not everyone fits in the system. One can always doubt whether it is the best possible selection. Point is, without the obvious top notch stars like Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden etc. nothing is guaranteed for the USA in tournaments like these. But we never had the opportunity to witness it in practice.

2010 and 2014 proved you don’t need your absolute best to win these tournaments. Yes this team was even weaker than those but still had enough to get it done more times than not with a coach who had a clue and managed them correctly.

Straight forward
09-11-2019, 02:33 PM
2010 and 2014 proved you don’t need your absolute best to win these tournaments. Yes this team was even weaker than those but still had enough to get it done more times than not with a coach who had a clue and managed them correctly.

This team didn't have a single superstar. That's the key.

usagre
09-11-2019, 02:37 PM
This team didn't have a single superstar. That's the key.

They had enough to get it done. The coach was the key.

ncjazz
09-11-2019, 03:04 PM
I just hope no American players get injured in these two upcoming meaningless games the US is about to play.

usagre
09-11-2019, 03:08 PM
I just hope no American players get injured in these two upcoming meaningless games the US is about to play.

Wait till you see the effort they are gonna put forth. Talk about going through the motions. If Popovich has balls he will play Plumlee, Lopez, White and Harris heavy minutes. The description doesn’t exist to accurately depict how meaningless these next two games will be.

Victorious
09-11-2019, 03:53 PM
2010 and 2014 proved you don’t need your absolute best to win these tournaments. Yes this team was even weaker than those but still had enough to get it done more times than not with a coach who had a clue and managed them correctly.

There were top 10 players on those roosters. And I have to argue that international basketball was the least talented in 2014. It seems now that some stronger teams are reappearing.

usagre
09-11-2019, 03:55 PM
There were top 10 players on those roosters. And I have to argue that international basketball was the least talented in 2014. It seems now that some stronger teams are reappearing.

2010 had 1 top 10 player. 21 year old Kevin Durant.
2014 had 1 maybe 2. Harden yes Curry maybe.
The other big names had not achieved that status.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 04:08 PM
They had enough to get it done. The coach was the key.

I didn't see the game, but I agree. Popovich was too insistent on implementing his Spurs system...he was never going to break NBA habits in two weeks, so he should've just introduced vanilla concepts and let the players improvise, win or lose. I feel like the strength of this team was held back in favor of over-adaptation to the international game. Congrats to the French. I'd rather us lose to them than get embarrassed by the Argentines the way Serbia did.

usagre
09-11-2019, 04:18 PM
I didn't see the game, but I agree. Popovich was too insistent on implementing his Spurs system...he was never going to break NBA habits in two weeks, so he should've just introduced vanilla concepts and let the players improvise, win or lose. I feel like the strength of this team was held back in favor of over-adaptation to the international game. Congrats to the French. I'd rather us lose to them than get embarrassed by the Argentines the way Serbia did.

I’ll summarize it. Mitchell tried to rescue Popovich with an amazing 29 points heading into the fourth quarter. Then Pop sat him for the first 3 minutes of the fourth and he didn’t regain his form. Turner got in early foul trouble and inexplicably played only 10 minutes when he still had 2 more fouls to give. Popovich preferred guarding Gobert with Barnes and Jaylen Brown and watched Gobert look like a man among boys. On the French side Ntilikina who anyone who watches the NBA knows is a defensive on the ball stud made Kemba look really bad but Popovich insisted on running the offense through him anyway at the end and away from Mitchell even though Kemba was awful.

Darrell Armstrong
09-11-2019, 04:31 PM
I didn't see the game, but I agree. Popovich was too insistent on implementing his Spurs system...he was never going to break NBA habits in two weeks, so he should've just introduced vanilla concepts and let the players improvise, win or lose. I feel like the strength of this team was held back in favor of over-adaptation to the international game. Congrats to the French. I'd rather us lose to them than get embarrassed by the Argentines the way Serbia did.

System? I watched all USA games and didn't see anything you could confidently call a system. I saw a lot of isolation plays for Walker and Mitchell, and a lot of three-pointers from almost everyone on the roster. Bad shots happily taken in the confidence someone would grab the rebound and have a second chance. Defence wasn't also really sophisticated. Typical high pressure man-to-man most of the time, aggressively switching assuming height difference could be erased with sheer physicality. I think they tried a zone for some plays here and there, but never consistently.

You could see how they reverted to iso plays and 1-on-5 basketball in the waning moments against France. If they had a system, no one trusted it.

usagre
09-11-2019, 04:35 PM
System? I watched all USA games and didn't see anything you could confidently call a system. I saw a lot of isolation plays for Walker and Mitchell, and a lot of three-pointers from almost everyone on the roster. Bad shots happily taken in the confidence someone would grab the rebound and have a second chance. Defence wasn't also really sophisticated. Typical high pressure man-to-man most of the time, aggressively switching assuming height difference could be erased with sheer physicality. I think they tried a zone for some plays here and there, but never consistently.

You could see how they reverted to iso plays and 1-on-5 basketball in the waning moments against France. If they had a system, no one trusted it.

I agree. And honestly they haven’t had one since 1992. They relied on their talent and their coaches to use the right lineups and make the right moves. For the most part it’s always been enough. But if you’re Coach is further handicapping you then it becomes quite a tall order to overcome.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 04:49 PM
I think Popovich was surprised Gobert was on the French team judging by how he coached the game. Thatís their only advantage. All of our wings are better than Batum, we have like 5 Fournierís on our team and the great Pop managed to screw it up. I said 2 years ago when he was hired that it was a huge mistake. I said keep him as far away from this team and the success that Coach K had to rebuild after Pop and his fellow coaches George Karl and Larry Brown managed to screw up. But itís fitting. Popovich has been on the coaching staff of every Us disaster team ever. 2002, 2004 and 2019.
No coincidence.

Well, Coach K was in Japan 2006 and that team (Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh, Paul, Elton Brand, Howard) was better than this (Kemba, Mitchell, Middleton...).

usagre
09-11-2019, 04:53 PM
Well, Coach K was in Japan 2006 and that team (Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh, Paul, Elton Brand, Howard) was better than this (Kemba, Mitchell, Middleton...).

A lot of those names were just that names in 2006. Paul, Howard, Bosh hadn’t done anything in the NBA until that point.
But yes that team was better than this one and failed. But that’s it. That’s the only loss out of 10 in which Popovich wasn’t associated with team USA. That says a lot.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 05:09 PM
A lot of those names were just that names in 2006. Paul, Howard, Bosh hadn’t done anything in the NBA until that point.
But yes that team was better than this one and failed. But that’s it. That’s the only loss out of 10 in which Popovich wasn’t associated with team USA. That says a lot.


C'mon man.

Don't hate Pop.

Stats 2005-2006

Lebron 31 ppg, 7 rpg and 6.6 apg and ALL STAR
Wade 27.2 ppg, 5.7 rpg and 6.7 apg, MVP Final (34.7 ppg, 7.8 rpg and 3.8 apg in Finals) and ALL STAR.
Melo 26.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg and 2.9 apg.
Bosh 22.5 ppg, 8.9 rpg and 1.9 apg and ALL STAR.
Elton Brand 24.7 ppg, 10 rpg and 2.4 apg and ALL STAR.
Joe Johnson 20 ppg, 4.1 rpg and 6.5 apg.
Jamison 20.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg and 1.9 apg.

USA 2006 has better players by far.

Richey666
09-11-2019, 05:13 PM
For me the biggest surprise of this USA team was, how slow they played. Many times they didnt even want to attack the basket in semi-transition and ended up with difficult iso 1-to-5. And Walker coughing ball over twice in first quarter was just inexplicable. I didnt watch too many games, regarding officiating, they seemed to allow much rougher defense than in previous FIBA tournaments, am I correct? Seems Team USA never got used to it, while France appreciated it pretty well, Australia even better, as they have always roughed opponents up.

usagre
09-11-2019, 05:14 PM
C'mon man.

Don't hate Pop.

Stats 2005-2006

Lebron 31 ppg, 7 rpg and 6.6 apg and ALL STAR
Wade 27.2 ppg, 5.7 rpg and 6.7 apg, MVP Final (34.7 ppg, 7.8 rpg and 3.8 apg in Finals) and ALL STAR.
Melo 26.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg and 2.9 apg.
Bosh 22.5 ppg, 8.9 rpg and 1.9 apg and ALL STAR.
Elton Brand 24.7 ppg, 10 rpg and 2.4 apg and ALL STAR.
Joe Johnson 20 ppg, 4.1 rpg and 6.5 apg.
Jamison 20.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg and 1.9 apg.

USA 2006 has better players by far.

Like I said one time in anything can be considered a fluke. That team failed like I said. But Popovich’s presence on the bench has lead to unbelievable failures. 9 out of 10. Those numbers don’t lie. He had no business being anywhere near this team with that track record. Obviously he did not have a positive impact on any of those teams.

That 2006 team had a bad day and lost to Greece. This was evidence by the fact that they beat a great Argentinian team comfortably in the next game. This team was managed poorly by Pop going all the way back to preparation time. And that continued with a miracle win over Turkey and then culminated with today.

usagre
09-11-2019, 05:17 PM
For me the biggest surprise of this USA team was, how slow they played. Many times they didnt even want to attack the basket in semi-transition and ended up with difficult iso 1-to-5. And Walker coughing ball over twice in first quarter was just inexplicable. I didnt watch too many games, regarding officiating, they seemed to allow much rougher defense than in previous FIBA tournaments, am I correct? Seems Team USA never got used to it, while France appreciated it pretty well, Australia even better, as they have always roughed opponents up.


I said it before the tournament started that with Popovich the transition game and easy baskets we were accustomed too as a result of pressure defense was not a given. I also had worries about how the rotation and amount of guys in it that it would have. All fears were realized. We didn’t play pressure defense, or run offensively and his rotations were stupid.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 05:25 PM
So the best 10-12 players decide not to show up, and the next 12 best players of the United States of America do not manage to get past the quarter finals. USA basketball is simply overrated. Their weakness is overshadowed by the good results which are obtained by the top team.

No where near our next best 12 players and to suggest that is pure embellishment. I won't waste time arguing if USA Basketball is overrated; the results speak volumes on both the junior and senior levels over the past decade. There are so many variables that go into creating a winning team...chemistry, coaching, personnel, experience, confidence, preparation time...we either didn't possess enough of these qualities or what qualities we had didn't work in unison. The USA system will always make it difficult to create the sort of team building other countries have, so this result is more a sign of the structural problems with creating a functioning team and less about being overrated.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 05:39 PM
System? I watched all USA games and didn't see anything you could confidently call a system. I saw a lot of isolation plays for Walker and Mitchell, and a lot of three-pointers from almost everyone on the roster. Bad shots happily taken in the confidence someone would grab the rebound and have a second chance. Defence wasn't also really sophisticated. Typical high pressure man-to-man most of the time, aggressively switching assuming height difference could be erased with sheer physicality. I think they tried a zone for some plays here and there, but never consistently.

You could see how they reverted to iso plays and 1-on-5 basketball in the waning moments against France. If they had a system, no one trusted it.

You can agree or disagree, but Pop takes some of the blame for this. My belief is that Pop wanted to tailor this team into more of an international style...that's reflected in the pace of this team (probably the lowest scoring in the US's professional era) and throwing in tricks like zones and purposeless passing to find open shots (for a poor shooting team). For what he had to work with, it's pointless to introduce team concepts when no roles were flushed out with only a few weeks to prepare. Perhaps they just weren't good enough to win...I'll accept that. But the best approach would've been to concentrate on defensive principles and introduce a few offensive wrinkles...otherwise let them live or die on how they play the game. Other than Kemba Walker, nobody seemed comfortable playing under Pop.

usagre
09-11-2019, 05:50 PM
@Federoy

I completely agree. This team was limited and became even weaker with no Tatum. But Popovich made the problem worse instead of helping it. All the signs were there starting with the loss to Australia, the joke win vs Turkey and all leading to today.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 05:54 PM
Nobody in the mainstream US media was paying attention to this tournament until the US loss to France. So all the analyst and boo-birds are removing themselves from NFL and baseball discussions to decry the US's failure. Most of the mainstream media and sadly most of the American public is ignorant about the quality of international basketball and challenges the US faces internally as far as building a functioning team that can compete on the international level. Most of these fools think that if we just throw a few all-stars together that should be enough to win. Total foolishness. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27592968/team-usa-weaknesses-exposed-loss-france

usagre
09-11-2019, 05:58 PM
Gobert +26 when he was on the court for his 34 minutes with an efficiency of 36. Lol. That means for the 6 minutes he wasn’t on the floor the US was +16. Unbelievable. I am surprised Pop didn’t guard him with Kemba. Actually I remember a sequence when he did.

paspalj
09-11-2019, 05:59 PM
Nobody in the mainstream US media was paying attention to this tournament until the US loss to France. So all the analyst and boo-birds are removing themselves from NFL and baseball discussions to decry the US's failure. Most of the mainstream media and sadly most of the American public is ignorant about the quality of international basketball and challenges the US faces internally as far as building a functioning team that can compete on the international level. Most of these fools think that if we just throw a few all-stars together that should be enough to win. Total foolishness. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27592968/team-usa-weaknesses-exposed-loss-france

This is so funny. Iíve been reading news and watching a little TV and there wasnít a little shred of information about the WC.

Suddenly you have people just acting all shocked and accuse people. I mean, guys, your own players donít give a shit, what were you expecting? The world catch up to your B team eventually :p

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:01 PM
This is so funny. I’ve been reading news and watching a little TV and there wasn’t a little shred of information about the WC.

Suddenly you have people just acting all shocked and accuse people. I mean, guys, your own players don’t give a shit, what were you expecting? The world catch up to your B team eventually :p

Don’t disrespect our B teams of the past. This was a C team. The problem was it might have been enough had Popovich not turned into a D team.

vivo
09-11-2019, 06:02 PM
Nobody in the mainstream US media was paying attention to this tournament until the US loss to France. So all the analyst and boo-birds are removing themselves from NFL and baseball discussions to decry the US's failure. Most of the mainstream media and sadly most of the American public is ignorant about the quality of international basketball and challenges the US faces internally as far as building a functioning team that can compete on the international level. Most of these fools think that if we just throw a few all-stars together that should be enough to win. Total foolishness. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27592968/team-usa-weaknesses-exposed-loss-france

I don't think if you count it as mainstream media but The Ringer had a piece before the tournament saying that this USA team was the worst ever statistically

madmax
09-11-2019, 06:02 PM
None of these US team losses or near losses should surprise anyone - they always coasted on their talent alone in these tournaments and when that talent was nulified or simply was not enough to overcome cohesive international teams, they lost those games just like they should have. US basketball is truly only elite at one thing - nurturing individual talents and instilling that "superstar" belief in their best players. When it comes to team concept and tactics they've always been lacking behind european teams. It's a blessing in disguise for them that they are such a huge country with a never ending talent pool, otherwise much smaller countries like Serbia, Lithuania or Australia would be ruling the basketball world with their much superior programmes

vivo
09-11-2019, 06:03 PM
This is so funny. I’ve been reading news and watching a little TV and there wasn’t a little shred of information about the WC.

Suddenly you have people just acting all shocked and accuse people. I mean, guys, your own players don’t give a shit, what were you expecting? The world catch up to your B team eventually :p

I think blaming USA players hurts their national team in the long run. Now seeing the downfall unless all the top guns attend players will not want to participate as it will hurt their brand if they don't win gold

Federoy
09-11-2019, 06:08 PM
@Federoy

I completely agree. This team was limited and became even weaker with no Tatum. But Popovich made the problem worse instead of helping it. All the signs were there starting with the loss to Australia, the joke win vs Turkey and all leading to today.


The assumption is, 2020 Olympic team will attract a higher quality of talent, but I can easily see the same result under Pop. It's not that he's a terrible coach, it's just that his approach to coaching NBA players on the international level doesn't suit our players skill sets...Coach K understood after 2006 that in order to get the best out of his players, he needed to play to their strengths, solidify a starting line-up early on, and work on areas that they were deficient in, mainly defense. Maybe this team wasn't good enough to win, but they had the material in place to compete at a higher level then what was displayed. At any rate, the final between whoever should still be pretty good. I think the way Argentina is playing, they're as much of a lock as anybody.

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:11 PM
@Madmax

Don’t underestimate motivation. Winning this tournament to the Lithuanian and Serbian players means the world.
What does it mean to the US players really ? Nice for a couple of days and then nobody cares. If that. This has to be factored in some where and there is no cure for it. The NBA players have bigger fish to fry its just the truth.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 06:12 PM
This is so funny. I’ve been reading news and watching a little TV and there wasn’t a little shred of information about the WC.

Suddenly you have people just acting all shocked and accuse people. I mean, guys, your own players don’t give a shit, what were you expecting? The world catch up to your B team eventually :p

Exactly. Today's loss to France was the first TV airing of the entire tournament here in the States. Nobody gave a shit about this tournament here until the US loss. It's ridiculous.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 06:14 PM
No KD no party.

This is the worst NBA team ever and its not Pop's fault (no KD, no Curry, no Harden, no Davis, no PG, no Leonard).

USA 2008 was the Redeem Team
USA 2010 has KD, Rose and good shooters (Love, Gordon, Curry...)
USA 2012 was the best team since Dream Team
USA 2014 has Davis, Harden, Curry, Irving, Thompson
USA 2016 has KD and Irving, and elite defenders like Butler, PG, Thompson and Deandre.
USA 2019 have Walker, Mitchell and Middleton and a lot of young player (Donovan too).

Coach K would surely have failed too with 2019 players.

Jon_Koncak
09-11-2019, 06:16 PM
None of these US team losses or near losses should surprise anyone - they always coasted on their talent alone in these tournaments and when that talent was nulified or simply was not enough to overcome cohesive international teams, they lost those games just like they should have. US basketball is truly only elite at one thing - nurturing individual talents and instilling that "superstar" belief in their best players. When it comes to team concept and tactics they've always been lacking behind european teams. It's a blessing in disguise for them that they are such a huge country with a never ending talent pool, otherwise much smaller countries like Serbia, Lithuania or Australia would be ruling the basketball world with their much superior programmes

Oh the good old population argument.Right USA is good only because of population.Of course let's forget that the population of African americans who consist the absolute majority of american players is 39 million.Doesnt sound that impressive in this context does it?Less than Spain,less than Italy.Besides why does 150 million Russia has such a shitty depth of quality bball players?Shved was missing and they had to bring second league players.You can add the whole Europe and USA still produces way more quality players.

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:21 PM
No KD no party.

This is the worst NBA team ever and its not Pop's fault (no KD, no Curry, no Harden, no Davis, no PG, no Leonard).

USA 2008 was the Redeem Team
USA 2010 has KD, Rose and good shooters (Love, Gordon, Curry...)
USA 2012 was the best team since Dream Team
USA 2014 has Davis, Harden, Curry, Irving, Thompson
USA 2016 has KD and Irving, and elite defenders like Butler, PG, Thompson and Deandre.
USA 2019 have Walker, Mitchell and Middleton and a lot of young player (Donovan too).

Coach K would surely have failed too with 2019 players.

Look thereís too much here to go into so I am not going to waste my time. You mention Curry and Love as shooters on the 2010 team when they barely played in the knockout rounds. They played in the meaningless games against Iran and Tunisia. Thatís just one mistake you made out of many by just producing a laundry list of names without the true stories behind each.

The bottom line is that maybe Coach K would have failed with this team too. But I know he wouldnít have handicapped them and made things worse for them instead of helping. And thereís no denying thatís what the great Greg Popovich did.

Darrell Armstrong
09-11-2019, 06:21 PM
Nobody in the mainstream US media was paying attention to this tournament until the US loss to France. So all the analyst and boo-birds are removing themselves from NFL and baseball discussions to decry the US's failure. Most of the mainstream media and sadly most of the American public is ignorant about the quality of international basketball and challenges the US faces internally as far as building a functioning team that can compete on the international level. Most of these fools think that if we just throw a few all-stars together that should be enough to win. Total foolishness. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27592968/team-usa-weaknesses-exposed-loss-france

I liked (although not 100% agree on) the analysis from The Ringer: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/9/11/20860968/team-usa-france-fiba-world-cup-quarterfinal-loss

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/9/11/20860933/team-usa-loss-world-cup

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:24 PM
I can’t believe some of the arguments being put forth here and the grand conclusions they are reaching.
This was a weak team, weaker than Usa past teams but still had the most talent of any team in the tournament and was coached extremely poorly. End of story for this version of team USA.

Let me see next years roster and hopefully new coach and then I’ll have thoughts on that.

Katastroika
09-11-2019, 06:29 PM
usagre, who's your pick for head coach if pop gets fired? Steve Kerr?

fasoulaki
09-11-2019, 06:33 PM
Jason Kidd!

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:37 PM
usagre, who's your pick for head coach if pop gets fired? Steve Kerr?

I can live with Kerr. But I would also take Rick Carlisle, and Doc Rivers.
Even Brad Stevens who can x and o with the best of them.
Please no Popovich.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 06:45 PM
None of these US team losses or near losses should surprise anyone - they always coasted on their talent alone in these tournaments and when that talent was nulified or simply was not enough to overcome cohesive international teams, they lost those games just like they should have. US basketball is truly only elite at one thing - nurturing individual talents and instilling that "superstar" belief in their best players. When it comes to team concept and tactics they've always been lacking behind european teams. It's a blessing in disguise for them that they are such a huge country with a never ending talent pool, otherwise much smaller countries like Serbia, Lithuania or Australia would be ruling the basketball world with their much superior programmes

That's not entirely true. Collegiate US players prior to 1992 were actually pretty cohesive and understood a team approach but were inexperienced and often loss to veteran Soviet or Yugoslav teams in major competitions. As I've mentioned in the past, USA Basketball doesn't have the luxury of an uniformed system for training our players, nor do we have the youth club system that Europe has in order to foster proper fundamentals. Our high schools often don't feature coaches with coaching certification, so players aren't being developed to understand team ball at an early age, so by the time some make it to college, they're raw...and those good enough to go to the NBA at 19-20 simply aren't being nurtured by NBA coaches who frankly don't have the time to be teachers. Furthermore, I'd say things began to unravel back in the 90s as Adidas and Nike camps started to emerge. The emphasis started to be less about fundamentals and more about flashy individual play or swaying players to certain affiliate schools (Nike with North Carolina for example).

We certainly have fabulous coaches who know how to teach the game, but the modern NBA isn't about out strategizing your opponent...it's about amassing talent and winning on the strength of individuals. Let me emphasize that's a NBA model. There are plenty of well schooled collegiate players who never make it in the NBA because their skill sets don't align with the NBA culture...some go to Europe and have outstanding careers while others drop out of basketball all together. It's important to separate the NBA model from how the game is taught outside the NBA.

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:50 PM
Jason Kidd!

At least he could have discussed his team USA success as a player. I think 50 something and 0.
Popovich discussed his experience with team USA and obviously it was all debacles.

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 06:56 PM
Nobody in the mainstream US media was paying attention to this tournament until the US loss to France.
this was exactly what our American members here were expecting before the tournament. so kudos on that I guess.

usagre
09-11-2019, 06:57 PM
I am reading all of Popovich post game quotes and no self criticism.
Shocking.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 07:02 PM
this was exactly what our American members here were expecting before the tournament. so kudos on that I guess.

I don't need the kudos...just pointing out the obvious. That's how our media operates. How was the tournament treated in Turkey after Turkey bowed out?

usagre
09-11-2019, 07:03 PM
At least good ol Twitter is giving it to Popovich.
But sadly that’s the only place he’ll get any criticism.

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 07:07 PM
I don't need the kudos...just pointing out the obvious. That's how our media operates. How was the tournament treated in Turkey after Turkey bowed out?
I will let my fellow countrymen reply as I'm not living in Turkey, but the websites I checked did not seem to be highly critical of the team or the coach. I saw a few mocking headlines on twitter, "congratulations for taking the 22nd place". Expectations were quite low, so it was not a massive disappointment, except for the way we lost the US game.

Federoy
09-11-2019, 07:15 PM
I will let my fellow countrymen reply as I'm not living in Turkey, but the websites I checked did not seem to be highly critical of the team or the coach. I saw a few mocking headlines on twitter, "congratulations for taking the 22nd place". Expectations were quite low, so it was not a massive disappointment, except for the way we lost the US game.

Interesting. I'll continue to watch the tournament. Despite our loss and some spotty officiating, its actually been one of the better World Cups in recent memory.

madmax
09-11-2019, 07:19 PM
That's not entirely true. Collegiate US players prior to 1992 were actually pretty cohesive and understood a team approach but were inexperienced and often loss to veteran Soviet or Yugoslav teams in major competitions. As I've mentioned in the past, USA Basketball doesn't have the luxury of an uniformed system for training our players, nor do we have the youth club system that Europe has in order to foster proper fundamentals. Our high schools often don't feature coaches with coaching certification, so players aren't being developed to understand team ball at an early age, so by the time some make it to college, they're raw...and those good enough to go to the NBA at 19-20 simply aren't being nurtured by NBA coaches who frankly don't have the time to be teachers. Furthermore, I'd say things began to unravel back in the 90s as Adidas and Nike camps started to emerge. The emphasis started to be less about fundamentals and more about flashy individual play or swaying players to certain affiliate schools (Nike with North Carolina for example).

We certainly have fabulous coaches who know how to teach the game, but the modern NBA isn't about out strategizing your opponent...it's about amassing talent and winning on the strength of individuals. Let me emphasize that's a NBA model. There are plenty of well schooled collegiate players who never make it in the NBA because their skill sets don't align with the NBA culture...some go to Europe and have outstanding careers while others drop out of basketball all together. It's important to separate the NBA model from how the game is taught outside the NBA.

let me emphasize that I fully agree with you here and it's a true blunder that such a rich country with deeply rooted love for basketball can't combine individual talents of their kid prodigies with the concepts of the team work and fundamentals of the game, at least on NBA level. I may sound like a hater here, but I mostly blame Jordan here and his flashy playing style and influence over several upcoming generations of young kids, who really could care less about playing the game the right way, as long as they looked good shooting fade away jumpers over stretched arms of three defenders. But oh well, at least this ineptitude of US players gives countries with inferior talent a chance every single time they meet internationally and makes for an interesting thread reading wise after an "upset" happens...

Jon_Koncak
09-11-2019, 07:22 PM
let me emphasize that I fully agree with you here and it's a true blunder that such a rich country with deeply rooted love for basketball can't combine individual talents of their kid prodigies with the concepts of the team work and fundamentals of the game, at least on NBA level. I may sound like a hater here, but I mostly blame Jordan here and his flashy playing style and influence over several upcoming generations of young kids, who really could care less about playing the game the right way, as long as they looked good shooting fade away jumpers over stretched arms of three defenders. But oh well, at least this ineptitude of US players gives countries with inferior talent a chance every single time they meet internationally and makes for an interesting thread reading wise after an "upset" happens...

every time =once in 15 years and 58 games.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 07:24 PM
With all my respect, but in my opinion the problem is that USA needs a lot of talent to supply the tactical work of FIBA teams.

It doesn't matter if it's Pop, Coach K, Kerr, George Karl or Brad Stevens the head coach.

If you change KD to Brandon Roy in 2010 USA could have lost.

In 2010 (has the GOAT FIBA player KD (1st NBA team 2010-2011), Rose (MVP 2011) and Westbrook (2nd NBA team 2011))

In 2014 (has Davis (1st NBA team 2015), Curry (2nd NBA team 2014 and 1st NBA team 2015), Thompson (3rd NBA team 2015), Irving (3rd NBA team 2015), Harden (1st NBA team 2014-2015))

In 2019 just Walker is 3rd NBA team and maybe next year Walker, Donovan or Tatum will be All NBA Team, but not elite players like KD, Rose, Irving, Harden, Davis...

Richey666
09-11-2019, 07:24 PM
One more thought: French NBA players with DPOY (and ex-NBA player in De Colo) were just better than US NBA players today, as both teams were trying to play rough Euroball and in this the experienced team with better coach usually wins against 12 players just thrown together for a month. Does it say something fancy about rise of EuroLeague or "smart" or "tactical" international basketball? Absolutely not. And there will be another US team trashing any opponent in run-n-gun 2020 Olympic finals.

Levenspiel
09-11-2019, 07:26 PM
from Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/d2q90s/mvp_is_greek_roty_is_slovenian_dpy_is_french_mip/)"MVP is Greek, ROTY is Slovenian, DPY is French, MIP is Cameroonian, NBA Champions are Canadian, and now USA won't be World Champions"

usagre
09-11-2019, 07:28 PM
Some of the discussion here is pretty hilarious. It’s almost as they had these statements rehearsed and ready for 2010 and 2014 but couldn’t use them. Well you can thank the great Popovich for finally allowing you to dust them off and use them.

usagre
09-11-2019, 07:32 PM
I think the US will survive just fine without the ďWorld ChampionsĒ title. I mean look how long theyíve come they werenít ďWorld ChampionsĒ for almost 40 years from the late Ď50ís until the mid Ď80ís.
That kind of puts that title in perspective.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 07:34 PM
One more thought: French NBA players with DPOY (and ex-NBA player in De Colo) were just better than US NBA players today, as both teams were trying to play rough Euroball and in this the experienced team with better coach usually wins against 12 players just thrown together for a month. Does it say something fancy about rise of EuroLeague or "smart" or "tactical" international basketball? Absolutely not. And there will be another US team trashing any opponent in run-n-gun 2020 Olympic finals.


And this.

France or Australia 2019 are better team than Turkey, Lithuania, Serbia, Russia 2010 and 2014.

Spain 2006-2012 or Argentina 2002-2006 could have defeated USA 2019 too.

usagre
09-11-2019, 07:36 PM
And this.

France or Australia 2019 are better team than Turkey, Lithuania, Serbia, Russia 2010 and 2014.

Spain 2006-2012 or Argentina 2002-2006 could have defeated USA 2019 too.

Absolutely. But you have to guarantee me Popovich is the coach. His all around job with this team from day one till now has been unbelievably awful.

Valexander
09-11-2019, 07:36 PM
from Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/d2q90s/mvp_is_greek_roty_is_slovenian_dpy_is_french_mip/)"MVP is Greek, ROTY is Slovenian, DPY is French, MIP is Cameroonian, NBA Champions are Canadian, and now USA won't be World Champions"

And still their championship is getting away from anything similar in the world, although it was already thousand miles ahead..
Apart for the fiba championship, they know what they are doing. everything on their plan..

madmax
09-11-2019, 07:38 PM
One more thought: French NBA players with DPOY (and ex-NBA player in De Colo) were just better than US NBA players today, as both teams were trying to play rough Euroball and in this the experienced team with better coach usually wins against 12 players just thrown together for a month. Does it say something fancy about rise of EuroLeague or "smart" or "tactical" international basketball? Absolutely not. And there will be another US team trashing any opponent in run-n-gun 2020 Olympic finals.

so what does it say then that a team full of NBA All Stars and other quality role players lose to a much inferior competition?:rolleyes: Doesn't it say that basketball is a TEAM sport first and foremost?

usagre
09-11-2019, 07:53 PM
In 2019 just Walker is 3rd NBA team and maybe next year Walker, Donovan or Tatum will be All NBA Team, but not elite players like KD, Rose, Irving, Harden, Davis...

How do you know ? Thatís why giving me next years numbers which is what you did with all those players from previous teams doesnít mean much when thereís nothing to compare it to. This discussion is more appropriate next year,. You might turn out to be overwhelmingly correct.
But what canít be argued is the atrocious coaching job Pop did.

Victorious
09-11-2019, 07:56 PM
We should not disregard that one of the secrets of winning medals is having the same coach for several years in a row. Coach K didn't win his world championship, but he continued building on his team and they became virtually invincible after that. France has the same coach for many years in a row now. So does Serbia. The same is true for Spain. Even the Czech republic who obviously has inferior talent compared to most top teams, has managed to get into the quarter finals.

The USA has a lot of NBA talent, but they changed their coach and they lost to one of the strongest teams which plays with the same coaching staff for many years now. Coach K lost his first WC with super stars, so why should Popovich win it all with less quality NBA players?

Richey666
09-11-2019, 07:56 PM
so what does it say then that a team full of NBA All Stars and other quality role players lose to a much inferior competition?:rolleyes: Doesn't it say that basketball is a TEAM sport first and foremost?

Of course it is team sport, you need Davis to get the board, to pass it to Irving or Harden and beautiful teamplay will drop 129 on opponents again like 2014. :D Not so, when you have Popovich trying to instill some complicated unusable schemes into Turner or Barnes.
And I dont even agree, that USA lost to much inferior competition. France clearly had best player on court today, just like they had a better coach for FIBA. Against Turkey yes, that was a travesty and they actually deserved to lose that.

usagre
09-11-2019, 08:06 PM
@Victorious

He didnít necessarily have to win it.
But asking him not to be the biggest reason why they didnít isnít a lot to ask.
I have gone over his many mistakes in my post today. He did team USA no favors.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 08:10 PM
How do you know ? That’s why giving me next years numbers which is what you did with all those players from previous teams doesn’t mean much when there’s nothing to compare it to. This discussion is more appropriate next year,. You might turn out to be overwhelmingly correct.
But what can’t be argued is the atrocious coaching job Pop did.

I dont know it, it's just a prediction by eye test.

Do you think Barnes, Harris, Plumlee, Lopez, Middleton (the best of this list), Smart, White or Turner will can be ALL NBA TEAM players next years?

I can't imagine it.

usagre
09-11-2019, 08:18 PM
I dont know it, it's just a prediction by eye test.

Do you think Barnes, Harris, Plumlee, Lopez, Middleton (the best of this list), Smart, White or Turner will can be ALL NBA TEAM players next years?

I can't imagine it.

Tatum and Brown have potential. Mitchell a star can be even better. Turner has huge potential as well. Kemba is what he is a star player. Middleton is a very good player was an all star and just got a max contract. Maybe he breaks out. This is why you can’t use future accomplishments in comparing. On paper this teams main 7 or 8 guys were not as good as 2010 but very comparable. That team used 8 guys. Guys like Curry and Love who didn’t play when it mattered are irrelevant for such discussions.

vivo
09-11-2019, 08:47 PM
I can live with Kerr. But I would also take Rick Carlisle, and Doc Rivers.
Even Brad Stevens who can x and o with the best of them.
Please no Popovich.

Rivers is good with stars and creating chemistry over a season but I don't think his tactical prowess is that good. Carlisle I'm a fan of, he is a great coach imho and can deal with big egos. Stevens, I like him as a Celtics fan, but biggest name he coached was Kyrie and his relationship with him didn't go well (also thanks to Kyrie being an utter idiot) so he might not be ideal for Team USA.

That being said, I also like Pop, but he is better for creating a culture over a long term. This Team USA should press the hell out in defense and force transition considering they didn't have a true playmaker. He didn't do that, their tempo was too low.

Finley
09-11-2019, 08:47 PM
Brook Lopez is shooting 2/14 from 3 point line. Why do I think that Jonas Valančiūnas would generate better percentage with the same amount of attempts? This tournament did not go well for Splash Mountain. Not at all... Just like Fran Fraschilla suggested, they should have picked some guys from Euroleague. Brandon Davies or Mason Plumlee?

madmax
09-11-2019, 08:55 PM
Of course it is team sport, you need Davis to get the board, to pass it to Irving or Harden and beautiful teamplay will drop 129 on opponents again like 2014. :D Not so, when you have Popovich trying to instill some complicated unusable schemes into Turner or Barnes.
And I dont even agree, that USA lost to much inferior competition. France clearly had best player on court today, just like they had a better coach for FIBA. Against Turkey yes, that was a travesty and they actually deserved to lose that.

I actually consider that 2014 Us team one of the most talented squads ever, on par with 1992 and 1996 teams actually - they had abundance of deadly scorers and shooters which always works wonders in FIBA, plus some elite big men too, which also helps tremendously to deal with other elite bigs from other countries. There's no wonder they were blowing out all of the opposition. Yet, not even US can field such a talented team every single year - sometimes you have to work and win with "pedestrian" US teams like this one or the ones from 2002 or 2004.

Jazz
09-11-2019, 09:16 PM
Great performance by France but a lot of hyperbole in this thread. Let's see what players the USA bring to the Olympics next year. I think usagre gave us an accurate impression of the attitude towards this tournament in America and after all the player withdrawals I don't think there's much need for soul searching.

I also think Koncak might be considering switching his allegiance from PAOK to Nymburk. :D

Buzissa
09-11-2019, 10:34 PM
Avoided any basketball websites during the day, Twitter, asked my friends to make no comments on the game.
Then on the way back home I get spoiled by the unlikeliest of sources: Portuguese radio. Unbelievable.


A couple of thoughts on Us players. Kyrie Irving was a headache for the Boston Celtics but they will quickly realize that Kemba Walker is no Kyrie Irving. Not even in his dreams.

Kris Middleton was the biggest bust after Pop of the entire team. Milwaukee is probably second guessing their decision to give him a max deal. He’s not a number two on a championship team, probably not even a number 3.

Very true. Actually I believe if you make that swap (Kemba for Kyrie) today the USA wins this game.
It is pretty surprising that the US gets back from being down 10, turns it into a 7-point lead and still loses this game.

All they needed was a closer. 7 points in the 8 closing minutes is insane, specially when they had all the momentum in their favor.

Edit: that Kemba Walker backcourt violation pretty much sums up this team's preparation for the competition.

Buzissa
09-11-2019, 10:44 PM
Clearly this USA group was beatable by any team with some good (even average like Turkey) NBA talent.
These are just 12 guys thrown together just to have someone represent team USA. Not even sure if USA Basketball really cares that much about this loss, as long as the Olympic berth is secure.

Everyone knows this is a C or D team. You could tell by French players' celebrations that they didn't feel like they had done something miraculous. Just compare it with how the Greeks celebrated in 2006.

Bruno DŪaz es Batman
09-11-2019, 11:01 PM
Clearly this USA group was beatable by any team with some good (even average like Turkey) NBA talent.
These are just 12 guys thrown together just to have someone represent team USA. Not even sure if USA Basketball really cares that much about this loss, as long as the Olympic berth is secure.

Everyone knows this is a C or D team. You could tell by French players' celebrations that they didn't feel like they had done something miraculous. Just compare it with how the Greeks celebrated in 2006.

Team USA has less talent, worse fit and better rivals than previous tournaments.

So this result was possible

Arsonist
09-12-2019, 03:30 AM
Great game of France Defeating the United States team that had doubts that despite being a squad of NBA players the vast majority with very little playing experience in international basketball, one of the determining aspects for the victory of France and key to the triumph of the Gauls was in the great player who has become Rudy Gobert who was absolute owner of the painting on both offensive and defensive sides, the United States could never stop him, Gobert destroyed all the inmates of the USA team, besides the performance of Evan Fournier player which I consider very elegant was also of much impact in the game for France with shots from the perimeter where he executed a great selection of effective shots throughout the match, the 3rd important contribution for France was Nando De Colo who was also NBA player who did a great job in the offensive supporting Fournier and Gobert, on the part of the United States the one that proved its worth by taking a step forward was Donovan Mitchell which his great contribution did not reach against a France that was more collective and more intelligent in its approach to the game, excellent victory for France by taking Team USA out of the race and breaking with the forecasts and betting houses.

https://i.imgur.com/MWvFXMxm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fF3AYtxm.jpg

kartog
09-12-2019, 05:06 AM
I think the US could have held on, the crucial turning point was when Kemba Walker "took charge" sometime in the fourth, waving off his teammates to clear space for him and then clanking shot after shot.

Thus erasing the hard-earned momentum they had courtesy of Mitchell. Up until that point France still was not sure they could actually pull it off.

Anyway congrats Les Bleus !

The door to the gold medal has just been kicked wide open. I just feel the winner of Australia-Spain would be the eventual champs.

Richey666
09-12-2019, 06:12 AM
Found a really good analysis about the game: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/9/11/20860562/rudy-gobert-france-vs-team-usa-basketball-fiba-world-cup-2019-highlights