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Darrell Armstrong
08-29-2019, 10:37 AM
Once the tournament is finished we will have an MVP, an all-tournament starting five, and all kind of individual accolades and accomplishments. But no one will be giving love to the end-of-the-bench guys, the roster fillers, the lucky 12th men who have been awarded the best seats in the house for free.

So, let's have a little contest before the real games begin now that most of the squads have been cut down to the final 12 players. I'll start by proposing a few candidates for the most hapless and cringe-inducing selections:

- Quino Colom from Spain. Throughout the preparation he has averaged 3 points and 2 assists shooting 26% from the field. Unable to guard a chair. Projects as the third PG behind Rubio (stud) and Llull (semi-stud). My best guess is he's been rewarded for leading Spain in the classification stage. Will have no impact and possibly never see the floor after the first round.
- Paul Lacombe from France. An undersized shooting guard who somehow has failed to hit a single three-pointer in any of the preparation games. Not a good defender, either. Has scored less than 3 points per game. Is buried behind Fournier (stud) and De Colo (stud). Can't name a single reason for him to be on the final roster.
- Ariel Filloy from Italy. Surprisingly similar numbers to Colom: less than 3 points and 2 assists shooting 24% from the field. Not really great defence, neither, and Italy already has a lockdown defender in that position in Luca Vitale. Looks like the 4th PG behind Hackett (starter), Della Valle (younger and more versatile) and Vitale (defensive specialist, veteran).

I'm pretty sure almost every country has a worthy contestant for the title of worst 12th man, but these three are the ones I know more about. Your turn.

okanial
08-29-2019, 10:42 AM
We still have 13 but Assuming Berkan is the one getting eliminated Ege Arar is totally useless 12th man. We will most likely start the games with Semih Erden and have Sertaç Şanlı as a back up center who can shoot a little and most likely to play Ersan at 5 a lot so Ege is serving no purpose. If he gets cut all 12 can have a decent role on the team so I wouldnt single out anyone as unnecessary and Im pretty sure none would be worse than end of the bench guys of African or Asian teams.

Mindozas
08-29-2019, 11:05 AM
I don't see such in Lithuania. All guys deserved their spots, couldn't call anyone as "lucky" or "completely doesn't deserve a spot" case. Sure, some will have little roles, but no lucky tourists this time

Other teams... maybe from our group David Barlow could be called as lucky to travel to WC. I mean he wasn't even in preliminary roster, but some players from his position withdrew, some got injured and here you go - veteran got a call up. Don't expect much from him, deep bench most likely scenario

Russia - Andrey Sopin. I know Russia bball not that bad, but raised the eyebrow with the question - who the hell is he, when saw him for the first time? Only google helped he: A guy from second division and even there not a difference maker. He was named to Russian reserve squad in the beginning of the summer, a future reserve, but when massive injury wave hit the squad at the backline, he was called up to NT and now he is in final roster. Crazy. Just cause simply there were no other options. His countrymen Motovilov is similar case, but at least he looked better in preps, so might get bigger minutes.

Darrell Armstrong
08-29-2019, 11:13 AM
... Im pretty sure none would be worse than end of the bench guys of African or Asian teams.

Well, sure, even Paul Lacombe could start for some teams. But that's not the point. I mean, it's not about the worst player in the tournament, but the one who brings so little to the table compared to the other people on the team that he has no chance at all to play, and if he did he would clearly hurt the team. For some low-level squads you can freely swap any sub and nobody would notice. There should be a noticeable difference between the other non-starters and the 12th player to qualify.

So, maybe the worst player for Korea is, in reality, a more useful player (because he's at the same level as the other subs and could serve a role if given minutes) than Mason Plumlee: Team USA has a better rebounder and rim protector in Myles Turner and a better shooter in Brook Lopez, so by putting Plumlee on the floor they will have worst chances to win.

Darrell Armstrong
08-29-2019, 11:15 AM
Russia - Andrey Sopin. I know Russia bball not that bad, but raised the eyebrow with the question - who the hell is he, when saw him for the first time? Only google helped he: A guy from second division and even there not a difference maker. He was named to Russian reserve squad in the beginning of the summer, a future reserve, but when massive injury wave hit the squad at the backline, he was called up to NT and now he is in final roster. Crazy. Just cause simply there were no other options. His countrymen Motovilov is similar case, but at least he looked better in preps, so might get bigger minutes.

Is he the 3rd PG? I'm seeing a pattern here...

Mindozas
08-29-2019, 11:31 AM
Is he the 3rd PG? I'm seeing a pattern here...

"On paper" he might be 2nd, cause that Motovilov, whom I also didn't know much, is clearly more of a SG. Then in whole roster only M.Kulagin is a PG. But without him on the floor, it's surely more likely that some veteran like Fridzon will take over the offense, maybe even Baburin, but not Sopin

Katastroika
08-29-2019, 12:30 PM
Bircevic for Serbia without any doubt. I don't know what kind of criminal evidences he has against Djordjevic in his pocket to get more medals than many legends of Serbian Basketball.

Fun Fact: If Serbia achieves a medal in China he'll have more than Teodosic.

Italian Pride
08-29-2019, 12:36 PM
Luca Vitali great defender?are you kidding me man?:D

I think filloy is the worst 12th by far

Darrell Armstrong
08-29-2019, 12:41 PM
Luca Vitali great defender?are you kidding me man?:D

I think filloy is the worst 12th by far

Some years ago Vitali played for Gran Canaria and he was sold as a good defender, able to play (and defend) from 1 to 3. Didn't watch him much, to be honest.

xenoloxy
08-29-2019, 01:13 PM
Well philippines doesn’t really have a cringe pick but the worse one I can find is Mark Barroca.
-5’9
-Pesky defender
- Decent shooter
I would have prefered a 6’4 guard in bobby ray parks (begged off due to personal reasons), 6’4 shooter in Matthew Wright (injured) or another big in 6’8 Erram (injured also)...or Jordan Clarkson (ineligible). We could’ve had taller guards in the roster but Barroca isn’t that bad tbh.

Toxicity
08-29-2019, 01:24 PM
Some years ago Vitali played for Gran Canaria and he was sold as a good defender, able to play (and defend) from 1 to 3. Didn't watch him much, to be honest.

He has size to defend from 1 to 3 spot but at the end of the day he's slow as hell and can't defend anyone properly... he's a decent ball-handler and playmaker but that's all. I think he should have not made the final roster...

Toxicity
08-29-2019, 01:27 PM
I think filloy is the worst 12th by far

I don't think so... maybe you mean he's not in shape at all (because he's old, etc)??

Meanwhile this year he posted decend numbers (9 ppg, 4.5 apg and 4.0 rpg) in Italy's Lega A division while 2 years ago was the 3rd scorer of Italian team at Eurobasket with more than 10 ppg so he's not that garbage... i think some players from other weak teams (Iran, Ivory Coast, etc) should be worse...

CoachZ
08-29-2019, 02:22 PM
It has to be Raduljica, not Bircevic for Serbia :D

Braduljica is useless in this team, pure mascot/talisman category. The Serbian Koksal...

Lyonswim
08-29-2019, 06:56 PM
It has to be Raduljica, not Bircevic for Serbia :D

Braduljica is useless in this team, pure mascot/talisman category. The Serbian Koksal...

Maybe he deserves a spot as your new avatar. :d

Nemanja
08-30-2019, 02:31 AM
Serbia has two players which could included on this list,Simonovic and Bircevic .

Darrell Armstrong
08-30-2019, 08:53 AM
Serbia has two players which could included on this list,Simonovic and Bircevic .

Bircevic, OK. But no way Simonovic can be considered a 12th man. He may even start if Lucic is not 100%, and it's not like he's an useless player.

As others have pointed out, the serbian fight is between Bircevic and Raduljica.

Darrell Armstrong
08-30-2019, 09:03 AM
I have a couple more: Argentineans Lucio Redivo and Agustín Caffaro. Redivo is a SG in a (short) PG body. Has averaged less than 2 points shooting 13% from the field. That's not a typo. To make matters worse, Argentina carries a plethora of much better players capable of playing the position: Laprovittola, Vildoza, Brussino, Fjellerup...

Only, he may not be the worst player in his own squad. Caffaro is a big man (although a bit undersized for a center) who has no other qualities other than being big. Even though Argentina is ridiculously shorthanded inside (with 39yo Scola forced to play almost 30 minutes every friendly game) he simply cannot stay on the floor. Doesn't score, doesn't rebound, only takes up space.

Katastroika
08-30-2019, 09:15 AM
I really don't see the Problem with Simonovic, he played very good friendlies. Much better than expected.

Nemanja
08-30-2019, 01:25 PM
Bircevic, OK. But no way Simonovic can be considered a 12th man. He may even start if Lucic is not 100%, and it's not like he's an useless player.

As others have pointed out, the serbian fight is between Bircevic and Raduljica.

Are you serious? He may start ,but if he plays more than 5 minutes,its disaster .What Simonovic give Serbia what other players dont ? Bircevic is backup power forward in luck of good power forwards in Serbia .

Tesla
08-30-2019, 01:38 PM
Let's wait and see Raduljica dunk highlights after few rounds. Simonović is pretty consistent performer. Micić was horrible last Eurobasket but he's a worker and has has become a top class Euroleague player. Gudurić has been week as piss every time I've seen him play for Serbia I think he has the most to prove with the NT. But Bircevic yes I would put so many players in front of him. Šimanić or Smailagic would be awesome young guys to blood right now in place of Bircevic.

Darrell Armstrong
08-30-2019, 01:43 PM
Are you serious? He may start ,but if he plays more than 5 minutes,its disaster .What Simonovic give Serbia what other players dont ? Bircevic is backup power forward in luck of good power forwards in Serbia .

I don't know what you have against Simonovic, but he has played quite a lot of minutes in some friendly matches and it wasn't a disaster.

CoachZ
08-30-2019, 01:46 PM
I don't know what you have against Simonovic, but he has played quite a lot of minutes in some friendly matches and it wasn't a disaster.

Same thing that protects Raduljica in his eyes, even though dude is a recreational player since the 2016 Olympics :D

One wears the red-and-white, the other black-and-white.

Besides, I think Simonovic plays the most important position in the team, the dude that steals the trophy :D

Toxicity
08-30-2019, 01:59 PM
Simonovic is all but the worst 12th man in this World Cup... i'd like to have him in Italian Team because he's a killer in few minutes with his 3s and some difense. And, more important, he's not pretending minutes since he knows his role in the team...

Darrell Armstrong
09-01-2019, 09:57 PM
These are the standings after all teams have played one game:

1- Lucio Redivo: 6 minutes, 4 misses, 0 points. And this was against Korea
2- Miroslav Raduljica: 10 minutes, failed to score against Angola
3- Panagiotis Vasilopoulos: nobody mentioned him, but played 10 minutes and all he did was miss a shot
4- Mason Plumlee: 5 minutes, 2 misses, 0 points. Grabbed 3 rebounds, though.
5- Andrei Sopin: played all of 6 seconds, committed a foul
6- David Barlow: played all of 7 seconds, did nothing
7- Eger Arar: 0 minutes, blowout game
8- Paul Lecombe: 0 minutes, contested game
9- Mark Barroca: 2 points in 6 minutes

Honorable mention:

Ariel Filloy: 10 minutes, 7 points. Played against Gilas Pilipinas, though
Quino Colom: 9 minutes, 3 points and 2 assists. Helped Spain come back against Tunisia.
Agustín Caffaro: 4 points in 4 minutes. Played against Korea, though

---

A word about the scoring system: 12th men don't play much, so those who didn't get playing time in blowout games will appear higher than those who did not take part in contested games. Then I apply the Groucho Marx rule: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt". 12th men who got the chance to play and made clear how useless they really are will appear at the top of the standings, starting with those who had a more negative impact against the weakest competition.

usagre
09-01-2019, 10:05 PM
Come on Darrell Armstrong you left out the guy who this award should be named after.
The Fiba World Cup Mason Plumlee award.

bballcrazy
09-01-2019, 11:36 PM
Worst 12 man is someone on an asian team who never had any playing time.

ja.he
09-01-2019, 11:43 PM
These are the standings after all teams have played one game:

1- Lucio Redivo: 6 minutes, 4 misses, 0 points. And this was against Korea
2- Miroslav Raduljica: 10 minutes, failed to score against Angola
3- Panagiotis Vasilopoulos: nobody mentioned him, but played 10 minutes and all he did was miss a shot
4- Andrei Sopin: played all of 6 seconds, committed a foul
5- David Barlow: played all of 7 seconds, did nothing
6- Paul Lecombe: 0 minutes
6- Eger Arar: 0 minutes
8- Mark Barroca: 2 points in 6 minutes

Honorable mention:

Ariel Filloy: 10 minutes, 7 points. Played against Gilas Pilipinas, though
Quino Colom: 9 minutes, 3 points and 2 assists. Helped Spain come back against Tunisia.
Agustín Caffaro: 4 points in 4 minutes. Played against Korea, though

our coach is clueless in fiba game that he recruited an undersized (5'9) point guard in this level.

Darrell Armstrong
09-02-2019, 06:40 AM
Come on Darrell Armstrong you left out the guy who this award should be named after.
The Fiba World Cup Mason Plumlee award.

Nobody mentioned him. But I think you're right: he has a brilliant resume as a towel boy and jock holder for his more talented teammates. Maybe that's why they called him up again. That, or as a secret weapon against Jokic.

I'll update the standings.

Rodrigue Beaubois
09-03-2019, 05:44 PM
I wasn't sure before the tournament, but I have no doubt now: Sead Šehović for Montenegro.

Darrell Armstrong
09-04-2019, 08:27 AM
I wasn't sure before the tournament, but I have no doubt now: Sead Šehović for Montenegro.

Sure he's been pretty bad, but I'm not sure he can qualify. There are several players who have played even less minutes for Montenegro, like Marko Todorovic or Aleksa Popovic. Even Nemanja Radovic has played less, even though he has at least made a basket.

Rodrigue Beaubois
09-05-2019, 07:11 AM
Sure he's been pretty bad, but I'm not sure he can qualify. There are several players who have played even less minutes for Montenegro, like Marko Todorovic or Aleksa Popovic. Even Nemanja Radovic has played less, even though he has at least made a basket.

But unlike the others you mentioned, every minute on the floor he spent, he just made damage to the team. The guy can't put the ball on the floor, can't shoot, can't play defense, has no court vision... The same can be said for his brother. But those guys have their place cemented in NT because of their political activity, not because of basketball skills. You mentioned Popovic, that guy has very limited basketball knowledge, but at least he gives his 100%, Radovic too.

Darrell Armstrong
09-05-2019, 07:55 AM
But unlike the others you mentioned, every minute on the floor he spent, he just made damage to the team. The guy can't put the ball on the floor, can't shoot, can't play defense, has no court vision... The same can be said for his brother. But those guys have their place cemented in NT because of their political activity, not because of basketball skills. You mentioned Popovic, that guy has very limited basketball knowledge, but at least he gives his 100%, Radovic too.

I totally agree with you. All I'm saying is that this guy is not the 12th man, more like 8th or 9th. So he could be the worse rotation player in the whole tournament for all I know, but doesn't belong in this list of players whose only role was to sit on the bench and cheer, or at most serving as Human Victory Cigars like David Barlow.

reamily
09-05-2019, 08:17 AM
China has makan and Abushalamu rotting on the bench, Japn has 3 Kosuke Takeuchi, AverySchafer and Seiya Ando

Darrell Armstrong
09-05-2019, 08:22 AM
China has makan and Abushalamu rotting on the bench, Japn has 3 Kosuke Takeuchi, AverySchafer and Seiya Ando

Avery Schafer doesn't sound very Japanese to me...

Darrell Armstrong
09-05-2019, 04:40 PM
These are the standings after the first round:

1- Panagiotis Vasilopoulos: 14 minutes, 1 miss, 0 points. Was benched against Brasil, so maybe he's the lucky charm after all
2- Lucio Redivo: 6 minutes, 4 misses, 0 points. Only saw the court against Korea
3- Mason Plumlee: 22 minutes, 2 points. Only basket came against Japan
4- David Barlow: only plays a few seconds at the end of games. Human Victory Cigar
5- Eger Arar: 0 minutes
6- Agustín Caffaro: 4 points in 4 minutes. Only played against Korea
7- Paul Lacombe: played very poorly against Jordan, then redeemed himself against Dominican Republic. 6 points in 27 minutes total
8- Ariel Filloy: 21 minutes, 7 points. Only played OK against Gilas Pilipinas and didn't see the floor against Serbia

Honorable mention:

Mark Barroca: 6 points in 20 minutes. Considering how poorly his teammates have fared, can't point my finger at him
Miroslav Raduljica: 8 points per game in 11 minutes, not that bad
Andrei Sopin: played surprisingly well against Argentina: 9 points 4 assists in 22 minutes
Quino Colom: 24 minutes, 7 points and 6 assists. Only one missed shot. He's making the most of limited minutes

---

A word about the scoring system: 12th men don't play much, so those who didn't get playing time in blowout games will appear higher than those who did not take part in contested games. Then I apply the Groucho Marx rule: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt". 12th men who got the chance to play and made clear how useless they really are will appear at the top of the standings, starting with those who had a more negative impact against the weakest competition.

vuxsa
09-05-2019, 06:40 PM
I think Raduljica’s performance against Italy in important moments bought him enough credit to not be considered for this list. Bircevic is still in the zone, but in all honesty there are a lot of candidates for less successful squads:).

Darrell Armstrong
09-05-2019, 08:08 PM
I think Raduljica’s performance against Italy in important moments bought him enough credit to not be considered for this list. Bircevic is still in the zone, but in all honesty there are a lot of candidates for less successful squads:).

Yes, that's why he's an honorable mention. I haven't seen Bircevic play lately, so if someone wants to propose him, I'd have to take his word.

Tesla
09-05-2019, 09:38 PM
Gudurić still totally overhyped at best.

markkanen
09-05-2019, 10:18 PM
I don't see such in Lithuania. All guys deserved their spots, couldn't call anyone as "lucky" or "completely doesn't deserve a spot" case. Sure, some will have little roles, but no lucky tourists this time

Other teams... maybe from our group David Barlow could be called as lucky to travel to WC. I mean he wasn't even in preliminary roster, but some players from his position withdrew, some got injured and here you go - veteran got a call up. Don't expect much from him, deep bench most likely scenario

Russia - Andrey Sopin. I know Russia bball not that bad, but raised the eyebrow with the question - who the hell is he, when saw him for the first time? Only google helped he: A guy from second division and even there not a difference maker. He was named to Russian reserve squad in the beginning of the summer, a future reserve, but when massive injury wave hit the squad at the backline, he was called up to NT and now he is in final roster. Crazy. Just cause simply there were no other options. His countrymen Motovilov is similar case, but at least he looked better in preps, so might get bigger minutes.

Well, Sopin wasn't that bad against Argentina, was he? He played surprisingly well.

What about Larentzakis from Greece or Kaza Kajami - Keane from Canada?

Darrell Armstrong
09-09-2019, 06:43 PM
These are the standings after the second round:


1- Lucio Redivo: played again, and now accumulates 17 minutes. He plays garbage minutes for an unbeaten team and boasts a team-worst -11 +/- How can you do that? Oh yes. Shooting 1/10 from the field. Think about it, played less than two quarters and found a way to shoot 10 times, while turning the ball over 2 times as well. He scored a grand total of 4 points in 13 possessions.
2- Panagiotis Vasilopoulos: 21 minutes, basically invisible with just 2 missed shots and barely contributing anything
3- Mason Plumlee: 26 minutes, 2 points. Only basket came against Japan. At least he grabbed some rebounds, which should came as no surprise considering he's a seven footer a half of them were against Japan's soft frontcourt
4- Ege Arar: finally played! Only 11 minutes, and contributed more personal fouls than points and rebounds combined. So maybe the coach was right leaving him on the bench while the games counted...
5- David Barlow: only plays a few seconds at the end of games. Human Victory Cigar
6- Paul Lacombe: played very poorly against Jordan, then redeemed himself against Dominican Republic. 7 points in 27 minutes total. Still to see the court in a contested game
8- Ariel Filloy: played quite a lot of minutes against Puerto Rico and fouled out
9- Agustín Caffaro: a per-minute monster averaging 24-12 with 4 blocks and steals per 36 minutes, while shooting 100% from the field. It's amazing what you can do with small samples and naive projections. In reality he has barely played a handful of minutes here and there

Honorable mention:

Mark Barroca: 15 points in 45 minutes. Considering how poorly his teammates have fared, can't point my finger at him
Miroslav Raduljica: has played just 3 more minutes than Bircevic and tops the team in made free throws, an amazing streak of 20 out of 21
Andrei Sopin: played surprisingly well against Argentina: 9 points 4 assists in 22 minutes. Only played 3 minutes since, doing nothing. One-hit wonder? Maybe, but at least he justified being taken to China
Quino Colom: 24 minutes, 7 points and 6 assists. Only one missed shot. He's making the most of limited minutes. Has not seen the court in the 2nd round

---

A word about the scoring system: 12th men don't play much, so those who didn't get playing time in blowout games will appear higher than those who did not take part in contested games. Then I apply the Groucho Marx rule: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt". 12th men who got the chance to play and made clear how useless they really are will appear at the top of the standings, starting with those who had a more negative impact against the weakest competition.

mojo13
09-10-2019, 02:21 AM
Well, Sopin wasn't that bad against Argentina, was he? He played surprisingly well.

What about Larentzakis from Greece or Kaza Kajami - Keane from Canada?

Kaza Kajami Keane was MVP of the Dutch League this year and is moving over to the BBL this season for Mittelduetscher BC. He is a decent young and still improving player. Surely there are many worse players than him in the WC. Arnt there guys not even playing on real pro clubs on some of the African and Asian team. He’d be a star player for the Philippines.