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Toruko
12-16-2019, 11:45 AM
A national team participating in a Competition of FIBA may have only one player onits team who has acquired the legal nationality of that country by naturalisation or byany other means after having reached the age of sixteen (16). This provision appliesalso to any player having the right to acquire a second nationality at birth but whodid not lay claim to this right until after having reached the age of sixteen (16).

http://www.fiba.basketball/downloads/v3_expe/agen/docs/3-ELIGIBILITY-NATIONAL-STATUS-of-%20PLAYERS.pdf

Levenspiel
12-16-2019, 11:51 AM
This is a statement. Either for nobody or for everybody but criticizing just one side is not just. It is remarkable that you always criticize Turkey in that issue although almost every country has his foreign rooted players. I dont know what the reason is. I would be just happy to watch a good nt.

Fiba gives the rules and you act accordingly. Thats it.
I always criticize Turkey, yes, because I look first in my own front yard, you know, but that's simply not true that I overlook others. I have the same stance for everyone, esp with ancestry shenanigans of Greece and youth harvesting of Spain.

Toruko
12-16-2019, 11:58 AM
I always criticize Turkey, yes, because I look first in my own front yard, you know, but that's simply not true that I overlook others. I have the same stance for everyone, esp with ancestry shenanigans of Greece and youth harvesting of Spain.

I understand your point but we are not fiba. Fiba made one naturalized player available because of the possibility of a better team and better basketball. The under 16 guys are considered as your product which is also good. But most respect to countries like Serbia or Lithuania who reject to use foreigners. I hope we can someday solve our point guard problem by ourselves but i wont refuse the possibility when the majority of the countries are using foreigners to be better.

Katastroika
12-16-2019, 11:59 AM
Toruko, no hard feelings, bro. Really no problem with Turkey or anything about Turkish basketball but I think that this situation is getting out of control a little.

Personally I would forbid ANY naturalization process drastically and radically. We will have Handball situation, it is just bad. For everyone, Turkey included.

And I like Levenspiel's argumentation. Always first look in your own garden. A proven receipe for getting better in every aspect of education, sports, society.

Toruko
12-16-2019, 12:03 PM
Toruko, no hard feelings, bro. Really no problem with Turkey or anything about Turkish basketball but I think that this situation is getting out of control a little.

Personally I would forbid ANY naturalization process drastically and radically. We will have Handball situation, it is just bad. For everyone, Turkey included.

And I like Levenspiel's argumentation. Always first look in your own garden. A proven receipe for getting better in every aspect of education, sports, society.

I know that you have not a bad intention and as I said i can understand your point of view but it is how it is. If you give the federations the right to play naturalized player they will use it. I am also against it but I wont boycott my national team because a naturalized player is on the court with the jersey of my nt.

ZaliaBalta
12-16-2019, 12:46 PM
It is so funny and at the same time sad, when people have to look for diverse reasons, analyze past great-great-great-generations and think of other smallest details in order to prove that one player or another can be called turkish (in this case). Same goes for every national team. It is just a shame.

And the recent situation where Turkey's president said that they are going to do everything they can to grant Larkin a turkish citizenship is just pathetic.

How does it even make you guys happy? Where are you going to put Bobby Dixon? Scottie Wilbekin? Who are you going to chase when Larking stops giving a shit about Turkey (not that he does now)? Lamelo Ball?

Toruko
12-16-2019, 01:00 PM
It is so funny and at the same time sad, when people have to look for diverse reasons, analyze past great-great-great-generations and think of other smallest details in order to prove that one player or another can be called turkish (in this case). Same goes for every national team. It is just a shame.

And the recent situation where Turkey's president said that they are going to do everything they can to grant Larkin a turkish citizenship is just pathetic.

How does it even make you guys happy? Where are you going to put Bobby Dixon? Scottie Wilbekin? Who are you going to chase when Larking stops giving a shit about Turkey (not that he does now)? Lamelo Ball?

Actually its quite easy. The offer to play for the turkish nt came from larking himself and the president spoke the last word. The naturalized player are not planned for the eternity. We have some guys who are just too young to be competitive. Where are we gonna put Wilbekin and Dixon? Its quite easy as well... Dixon is too old and the decision between Wilbekin and Larkin will be taken before the tournament begins. Just the way spain was doing with Mirotic and Ibaka.

soulis79
12-16-2019, 01:07 PM
Regarding Germany's Pleiss i can't remember a truly successful national team participating in major FIBA tournaments without at least one seven footer in their squad. The only team that comes to my mind is Argentina. Oberto and Wolkowyski weren't that big but they were excellent pivots.

As for Turkey, i think the major issue for national team is the lack of a floor general. Turkey needs a PG to orchestrate their offence and control the tempo. On the other hand Larkin (or Wilbekin) are excellent players and can make the difference at some point. The second issue is the paint. Erden is aged, and i see no backup or some future prospect in that position.

Toruko
12-16-2019, 01:17 PM
Regarding Germany's Pleiss i can't remember a truly successful national team participating in major FIBA tournaments without at least one seven footer in their squad. The only team that comes to my mind is Argentina. Oberto and Wolkowyski weren't that big but they were excellent pivots.

As for Turkey, i think the major issue for national team is the lack of a floor general. Turkey needs a PG to orchestrate their offence and control the tempo. On the other hand Larkin (or Wilbekin) are excellent players and can make the difference at some point. The second issue is the paint. Erden is aged, and i see no backup or some future prospect in that position.

Oh please allow me to inform you then. As you mentioned Erden is our starting Center, then Ömer Faruk Yurtseven (a 21 year old ncaa nba first round prospect), Sertac Sanli, [Berke Atar (99 born old school Center), Alperen Sengün (02 born 15 minutes bench guy right now) and Adem Bona(03 born elite defender nba prospect)] the last 3 are of course usable in the future.

But you are absolutely right about the problems right now. Position 1 and Position five is a big problem right now.

ZaliaBalta
12-16-2019, 01:34 PM
Taking the thread to a bit different direction..:

Guys, are you buying tickets for the qualification tournaments? Especially those, whose teams are playing somewhere abroad?

For example, Lithuanian media says that we have a big interest from polish and slovenian fans. Do we have any live examples in this forum/thread?

I personally bought 2 tickets to the final match. Would not call that optimistic, as the opponents until the final are more than beatable. For example the cheapest ticket (3rd floor, Žalgirio arena) to the final match is 10 euros. The most expensive ones are 48 euros. I don't know whether prices are the same for foreign fans, as some of the sectors are not currently visible for us lithuanians. By the way, tickets for the whole tournament (subscriptions) are already sold out and only separate day tickets are available.

Katastroika
12-16-2019, 02:06 PM
Tickets not available for our tournament still. Don't see any bigger groups of travelling visitors. Think that I will watch them all. Steven Adams, maybe Towns, Gallo, a lot of cool players to see.

Toruko
12-16-2019, 02:13 PM
Tickets not available for our tournament still. Don't see any bigger groups of travelling visitors. Think that I will watch them all. Steven Adams, maybe Towns, Gallo, a lot of cool players to see.

I love Steven Adams like my son. Is the most sympathetic guy of all active basketball player. Would love to watch him but i am a bit pissed because he abandoned the tall blacks after he said he would join the team. I can understand that he is pissed because NZ federation didnt support him when he was young but Its the highest honor to wear the jersey of your country. Its even more valuable than winning a ring in the nba or euroleague etc. I will travel to Serbia if he joins the tall blacks.

Katastroika
12-16-2019, 02:41 PM
I love Steven Adams like my son. Is the most sympathetic guy of all active basketball player. Would love to watch him but i am a bit pissed because he abandoned the tall blacks after he said he would join the team. I can understand that he is pissed because NZ federation didnt support him when he was young but Its the highest honor to wear the jersey of your country. Its even more valuable than winning a ring in the nba or euroleague etc. I will travel to Serbia if he joins the tall blacks.

Beers are on me.

mojo13
12-16-2019, 04:20 PM
Tickets not available for our tournament still. Don't see any bigger groups of travelling visitors. Think that I will watch them all. Steven Adams, maybe Towns, Gallo, a lot of cool players to see.

Victoria, Canada tickets are not on sale yet.

It will be held at Save On Foods Memorial Center near the downtown core (beautiful city). Capacity is only 7400 (fairy small) so I’m a little concerned for heavy prices. But hopefully that means a packed house.

mojo13
12-16-2019, 06:32 PM
Tristan Thompson today refuse to commit to playing for Team Canada in June when cornered by Toronto media.

Personally no surprise as he will be a UFA looking for one of his last major contracts. Maybe he joins for the Olympics if we could be so lucky.

More of a concern was Kelly Olynyk being a little non-committal as well when asked a couple weeks ago. More a "love to be there, but we will see what happens" type response. He has a player option for 20/21 with the Heat - so it creates some uncertainty. He referenced the injury he suffered during the WC warm-ups giving him second thoughts as well. I've said here for a while I think he is out best FIBA big.

Katastroika
12-16-2019, 07:10 PM
I understand the players in this situations. If I had the possibility to sign a 20 million dollar contract I don't know how I would react even the national team in basketball in my country is some thing of the alpha and omega in sports. Always easy to spit on someone but who knows he we would react in such conditions.

Jon_Koncak
12-16-2019, 10:56 PM
if FIBA is serious about this, they can stop it (for all counties that exploit it), but they don't seem to care.

FIBA put a limit at one naturalised per team and the 16 year old limit and at least in the last couple of years they seem to strictly enforce it.That's all they can do and tbh their rules are much stricter than FIFA for example where no restrictions at all exist!Italy has two brazilians in their squad(Jorginho and Emerson)Under FIBA rules only one would be eligible to play, even China has naturalised 3 brazilians

Levenspiel
12-17-2019, 12:25 PM
FIBA put a limit at one naturalised per team and the 16 year old limit and at least in the last couple of years they seem to strictly enforce it.That's all they can do and tbh their rules are much stricter than FIFA for example where no restrictions at all exist!Italy has two brazilians in their squad(Jorginho and Emerson)Under FIBA rules only one would be eligible to play, even China has naturalised 3 brazilians
I realized they're getting a bit more strict, as recently evidenced by Clarkson's case. They had given the green light to Calathes, for example, but rejected Clarkson's.

This 16 year-old rule is a bit late. Many prospects are obvious by the age of 16. It's no coincidence that many young Africans etc are arriving to their new countries slightly before turning 16, if you believe the birth certificate. There might be natural cases where a kid may move to another country, for not only basketball reasons and start their bball career there. if the age limit were 10, it would be a lot more difficult to exploit it.

Victorious
12-18-2019, 09:17 AM
Bona got the passport when he was 15 so he has been developing fully in Turkey so he is a turkish product like Giannis. Biberovic played for Bosnian U16 and has still the possibility choose another country till to his 21th birthday which is in his case Turkey.

About so called foreigners in national teams.... every country has them (almost). Greece has the four Antetokounmpo Bros, Dorsey, Koufos, Calathes who has nothing to do with greek basketball. Or look at spanish U-teams. They have 3 in the current U18 and 2 in U20. If you condemn the situation do it overall or be silent.
@general
From my point of view as long as the guys are developed by turkey there is no problem for me. Of course you guys will say Antetokoumpo bros are born in greece Dorseys grandmom is greek etc. I know it all. There is no need for inferiority complex. Turkey has enough own prospects but want to get stronger by developing some non turk prospects.

Oh the border of age is not 14 but 16.

The problem is that Greece has to uphold a certain standard. Greece uses players which are Greek born or have (partial) Greek ancestry. So they are somewhat flexible, but they are not able to go beyond those lines. I mean to say, perhaps Greece would prefer Jimmer Fredette over Joey Dorsey, or Kyle Hines instead of Koufos. Imagine a shooter like Fredette on the same team as Giannis. But they don't have the luxury to make those choices, as Fredette or Hines dont have Greek ancestry.

Another point is that in the case of Turkey, they can choose the hottest player of the season. So since Larkin is better than Wilbekin at the moment, they can put Wilbekin aside and go for the former. If another player is hotter next season, they can put Larkin aside as well. What about injuries? No problem, we'll find another one. So this is also somewhat unfair. Perhaps FIBA can make some restrictions. That a team can change a naturalized player every five years. That also seems fair for the players. They have a certain commitment for the national team. Also the fans will become attached to the player as well.

Spain did this as well with Ibaka and Mirotic. But both of them did spend some years of development in Spain.

ZaliaBalta
12-30-2019, 11:19 AM
Slovenia is pursuing Jordan Morgan to become slovenian:))

Coach Trifunovic said something like "hey, we gotta do what we gotta do, i wish we did not have to use foreign players, but we don't stand a chance without them"*.

* - Not an exact quotation

Mindozas
12-30-2019, 12:48 PM
Slovenia is pursuing Jordan Morgan to become slovenian:))

Coach Trifunovic said something like "hey, we gotta do what we gotta do, i wish we did not have to use foreign players, but we don't stand a chance without them"*.

* - Not an exact quotation

Its just painful to see such words, it basically shows all the damage for national team sports - we don't have a player, so we sign one, like in clubs... Screw FIBA

Toruko
12-30-2019, 02:17 PM
The problem is that Greece has to uphold a certain standard. Greece uses players which are Greek born or have (partial) Greek ancestry. So they are somewhat flexible, but they are not able to go beyond those lines. I mean to say, perhaps Greece would prefer Jimmer Fredette over Joey Dorsey, or Kyle Hines instead of Koufos. Imagine a shooter like Fredette on the same team as Giannis. But they don't have the luxury to make those choices, as Fredette or Hines dont have Greek ancestry.

Another point is that in the case of Turkey, they can choose the hottest player of the season. So since Larkin is better than Wilbekin at the moment, they can put Wilbekin aside and go for the former. If another player is hotter next season, they can put Larkin aside as well. What about injuries? No problem, we'll find another one. So this is also somewhat unfair. Perhaps FIBA can make some restrictions. That a team can change a naturalized player every five years. That also seems fair for the players. They have a certain commitment for the national team. Also the fans will become attached to the player as well.

Spain did this as well with Ibaka and Mirotic. But both of them did spend some years of development in Spain.

We are on the same page with naturalized player. I am also against guys who are not connected with the country but in Larkins case, the approach came from Larkin himself and its not clear if he gets the turkish citizenship or not. I can reassure you that this is a temporary thing. There are plenty of guys coming after but they need some time.

Every country has its policy. I have no problem with Giannis etc. since he got his education in Greece but cant say the same thing about Dorsey. Having a greek origined grandma doesnt make him different than fredette. It is how it is. Lets hope for some good prospects so that the problem can be minimized.

Toruko
12-30-2019, 02:18 PM
Slovenia is pursuing Jordan Morgan to become slovenian:))

Coach Trifunovic said something like "hey, we gotta do what we gotta do, i wish we did not have to use foreign players, but we don't stand a chance without them"*.

* - Not an exact quotation

Jordan morgan is not a Randolph

TurkfromGermany
12-30-2019, 05:00 PM
Every country has its policy. I have no problem with Giannis etc. since he got his education in Greece but cant say the same thing about Dorsey. Having a greek origined grandma doesnt make him different than fredette. It is how it is. Lets hope for some good prospects so that the problem can be minimized.

Dorsey´s mom is greek. Dorsey is 99999999999999 times more greek as Larkin, Wilbekin, Bona, Preldzic, Dixon, Biberovic, Erxhan Osmani etc. are turkish.

Levenspiel
12-30-2019, 05:10 PM
Its just painful to see such words, it basically shows all the damage for national team sports - we don't have a player, so we sign one, like in clubs... Screw FIBA
Not at the same level as others, and not always, but Slovenia has also a traditon of naturalizations, too, more or less since their existence in FIBA (ie., their independence). so not a surprise for me.

Ariel McDonald comes to mind, then plenty of players with Bosnian origin (Omic, Alibegovic, Becirovic, Rizvic, etc - they may have different backgrounds and reasons though), then Randolph.

Straight forward
12-30-2019, 05:28 PM
That's why I never truly respect Slovenia's Eurobasket gold. It looked fake to me, just taking random American to the roster as the key player. The last time NT that won Eurobasket fair and square was France 2013.

Mindozas
12-30-2019, 05:47 PM
Not at the same level as others, and not always, but Slovenia has also a traditon of naturalizations, too, more or less since their existence in FIBA (ie., their independence). so not a surprise for me.

Ariel McDonald comes to mind, then plenty of players with Bosnian origin (Omic, Alibegovic, Becirovic, Rizvic, etc - they may have different backgrounds and reasons though), then Randolph.

I'm not too familiar with all these origins except for Omic which is quite new case, but I remember McDonald, at least he played for Olimpija for few years, still not an excuse, but at least some connection. Randolph case is just wrong in so many levels. However, I'm not blaming Slovenia for taking advantage from the rules FIBA made. Its exactly FIBA's fault in that. It cant be that easy to play for NT. Make some 3 years playing in local league rule or smth. It'd still be wrong, but atleast smth. I don't know how people reacts in that countries and how much joy such NT brings, but personally I'd stop caring about LT NT if we would have some foreigner. It'd be hard to do cause NT is my number 1 team, but it's simply wrong, its against the idea of national team sports. There're clubs for that

serbianhoops
12-30-2019, 05:51 PM
Luka Dončić's father Saša was naturalized Slovenian too.

Toruko
12-30-2019, 05:57 PM
I suggest all you guys write to FIBA to change the rules about naturalization. It is how it is.

Mindozas
12-30-2019, 06:05 PM
I suggest all you guys write to FIBA to change the rules about naturalization. It is how it is.

We can create a petition with millions signatures, it won't change a thing. FIBA simply doesn't give a fck. So all we can do is talk and hope it won't get worse - they can always change rule to two players. I know that such idea already was born some time ago, good that didn't have much support

Toruko
12-30-2019, 06:12 PM
We can create a petition with millions signatures, it won't change a thing. FIBA simply doesn't give a fck. So all we can do is talk and hope it won't get worse - they can always change rule to two players. I know that such idea already was born some time ago, good that didn't have much support

You can see it either way. Many countries are too small and lack somewhere (mostly Center position or PG). Its a way to make them more competitive and the bb more attractive. Dont get me wrong i already mentioned that i am against it too but i can understand the circumstances.

Even Lithuania lacks in play making position but its also honorable to say no to a naturalized player. My red line is the education of a player not the birth place, skin color etc. The player must represent your basketball culture.

Mindozas
12-30-2019, 06:34 PM
You can see it either way. Many countries are too small and lack somewhere (mostly Center position or PG). Its a way to make them more competitive and the bb more attractive. Dont get me wrong i already mentioned that i am against it too but i can understand the circumstances.

Even Lithuania lacks in play making position but its also honorable to say no to a naturalized player. My red line is the education of a player not the birth place, skin color etc. The player must represent your basketball culture.

I get the reason behind it too, but I don't accept it. We have clubs for that. My criteria are two - born in that country or has parental connection with it, ok I can go till grandparents. I'm against all other cases. It really looks crazy when country doesn't have C, so they get one, some lacks PG - let's naturalize it. It makes no sense at all in national team competition. I don't want to sound like some nationalistic person, cause I'm not, but its just absurd. In my eyes, with naturalized player team becomes not national team anymore. But as I wrote - it's only FIBA to blame, they made it all too easy

Toruko
12-30-2019, 06:38 PM
I get the reason behind it too, but I don't accept it. We have clubs for that. My criteria are two - born in that country or has parental connection with it, ok I can go till grandparents. I'm against all other cases. It really looks crazy when country doesn't have C, so they get one, some lacks PG - let's naturalize it. It makes no sense at all in national team competition. I don't want to sound like some nationalistic person, cause I'm not, but its just absurd. In my eyes, with naturalized player team becomes not national team anymore. But as I wrote - it's only FIBA to blame, they made it all too easy

As long as the rules are for every national team its bothering but acceptable. Some more criteria like a naturalized player has to play at least 3 years in a domestic league to play for the nt it would be better but the rules wont be changed entirely so its unnecessary to discuss about it.

Katastroika
01-01-2020, 10:55 AM
I get the reason behind it too, but I don't accept it. We have clubs for that. My criteria are two - born in that country or has parental connection with it, ok I can go till grandparents. I'm against all other cases. It really looks crazy when country doesn't have C, so they get one, some lacks PG - let's naturalize it. It makes no sense at all in national team competition. I don't want to sound like some nationalistic person, cause I'm not, but its just absurd. In my eyes, with naturalized player team becomes not national team anymore. But as I wrote - it's only FIBA to blame, they made it all too easy

I agree 100%. If our national team starts naturalizing which I hope it won't ever it would be worse than taking 3 Olympic Golds in a row with some random Americans.

usagre
01-01-2020, 04:32 PM
This problem in my opinion is rooted in the club team roster makeup change. When a European club team has 8 Americans on its roster something is wrong. After time it becomes it becomes normal and the next logical step is to extend that although obviously in a less prominent way to national teams. The old days of limiting foreigners to a couple of roster spots was the best way to keep the integrity of national leagues. These individual leagues are not international leagues and shouldn’t be treated as such. I understand that the Euroleague attempts to be one but the NBA is truly the only one.
These Euroleague members also participate in their national leagues. If they didn’t then fine you can truly make the Euroleague an international league. I know there’s no going back now but I think that’s where this problem began and it will only get worse in the future for National teams.

Toruko
01-01-2020, 04:43 PM
This problem in my opinion is rooted in the club team roster makeup change. When a European club team has 8 Americans on its roster something is wrong. After time it becomes it becomes normal and the next logical step is to extend that although obviously in a less prominent way to national teams. The old days of limiting foreigners to a couple of roster spots was the best way to keep the integrity of national leagues. These individual leagues are not international leagues and shouldn’t be treated as such. I understand that the Euroleague attempts to be one but the NBA is truly the only one.
These Euroleague members also participate in their national leagues. If they didn’t then fine you can truly make the Euroleague an international league. I know there’s no going back now but I think that’s where this problem began and it will only get worse in the future for National teams.

The problem is the changing gamestyle. The most effective way to defend pick and roll games is switching and the most effective way to take down switching defenses are guards who can penetrate. The short player are so strong right now that you can switch almost 1 to 5 without big problem.

European player are not as agile and fast as it needs to be to take an advantage. Thats the reason why american player are preferred. Europe has a big problem in the pg position. There are not more than 2-3 european pg that could be raised for the competitive levels. Doncic is the best one but guys like micic etc can be mentioned too.

Even bb countries like Lithuania has big play making problems. We turks had this problem always but the problem became even more severe after Kerem Tunceri etc.

usagre
01-01-2020, 04:59 PM
@Toruko

Yes but the African American athlete was always the best suited to play the game of basketball. You can pick any decade in history. So what really changed now ? I think it’s what I mentioned above as well as an overall loss of National identity and the prevailing globalist views of our times.

Toruko
01-01-2020, 05:10 PM
@Toruko

Yes but the African American athlete was always the best suited to play the game of basketball. You can pick any decade in history. So what really changed now ? I think it’s what I mentioned above as well as an overall loss of National identity and the prevailing globalist views of our times.

Int the beginning of the century and in previous times a team was built around a dominant center. The change of speed and this pace and space shooting bb made guards become more important. Nowadays a big is only useful for rebounding and rim protection and switching was not a major issue because guards were very weak. So the responsibilities of bigs and shorts changed. The lack of education in europe and the overproduction in the states made the situation even more severe of course.

The main problem is that there are a bunch of bb countries who try to raise some prospect and fiba wants to include more countries and tries to catch more fan potential for bb.

Mindozas
01-01-2020, 05:19 PM
Indeed, players naturalization started cause of limits on clubs level. It happened already in last century, when we had i.e. some Yugo players receiving Greek citizenship from rich Greek clubs to not be counted as foreigners, some Italian club players having double citizenships like i.e. Argentine/Italian, Spain clubs doing that with USA players, some even played in NT. When those limits were gone in Euroleague, big wave of USA players came to Europe, still some limits in local leagues were/are active, so obviously agents made deals with some federations to get Euro passports (mostly Balkans, then Azeri, Armenia was popular), in Spain there is Cotonou rule, so players from Africa are getting passports, even fake ones. Of course those countries which are giving away passports want smth back, so these USA players must represent them, at times federations were changing foreigners like socks, having big number of naturalized players to choose from - need C for some games they calls one, then needs PG then calls other.
Playing style has nothing much to do with it. Let's say in Lithuania there was PG problem for few decades, luckily we had Saras, then Kalnietis, but never a decent back up. Mistakes in players developments in 90s made big impact also, schools were looking for new Sabonis like crazy, while guards were simply ignored, it looked like we'll have bunch of them forever

Toruko
01-01-2020, 05:28 PM
Indeed, players naturalization started cause of limits on clubs level. It happened already in last century, when we had i.e. some Yugo players receiving Greek citizenship from rich Greek clubs to not be counted as foreigners, some Italian club players having double citizenships like i.e. Argentine/Italian, Spain clubs doing that with USA players, some even played in NT. When those limits were gone in Euroleague, big wave of USA players came to Europe, still some limits in local leagues were/are active, so obviously agents made deals with some federations to get Euro passports (mostly Balkans, then Azeri, Armenia was popular), in Spain there is Cotonou rule, so players from Africa are getting passports, even fake ones. Of course those countries which are giving away passports want smth back, so these USA players must represent them, at times federations were changing foreigners like socks, having big number of naturalized players to choose from - need C for some games they calls one, then needs PG then calls other.
Playing style has nothing much to do with it. Let's say in Lithuania there was PG problem for few decades, luckily we had Saras, then Kalnietis, but never a decent back up. Mistakes in players developments in 90s made big impact also, schools were looking for new Sabonis like crazy, while guards were simply ignored, it looked like we'll have bunch of them forever

If you think that Kalnietis is a good play maker then your expectations must be very low for a pg. :D

madmax
01-01-2020, 06:27 PM
If you think that Kalnietis is a good play maker then your expectations must be very low for a pg. :D

I know right - the guy is delusional at best lol:D
Only Sharas was a world class PG, but he also had a lot of weaknesses, like being slow, unathletic and a black hole defensively all of the time lmao...Kalnietis was not even a Euroleague level most of the time when he played for Lithuania imo

Toruko
01-01-2020, 06:44 PM
I know right - the guy is delusional at best lol:D
Only Sharas was a world class PG, but he also had a lot of weaknesses, like being slow, unathletic and a black hole defensively all of the time lmao...Kalnietis was not even a Euroleague level most of the time when he played for Lithuania imo

He is a turnover machine. The last time I realized it was in Eurobasket 17 against Greece. LTU was fighting back but Kalnietis made 2 insane turnovers that broke the neck of lithuanian team. Saras was a good one.

Mindozas
01-01-2020, 08:47 PM
If you think that Kalnietis is a good play maker then your expectations must be very low for a pg. :D

You should read more carefully, I wrote had , nowadays Kalnietis is declined, but he had some hell of the tournaments with NT, like Rio Olympics, where he was simply great, one of the best PGs in the tournament at very top level. Overall, he was really fine with NT this decade and helped us a lot. So yeah, he was good. Probably you simply have no clue who was behind him on bench if you think I'm wrong with my statement in previous post... However he never managed to turn his club career into smth better, mostly cause of injuries, which chased him entire career and some wrong decisions, playing under poor coaches. He would have never reached star level, but it could've been better

serbianhoops
01-01-2020, 09:08 PM
I agree 100%. If our national team starts naturalizing which I hope it won't ever it would be worse than taking 3 Olympic Golds in a row with some random Americans.

We already had a naturalized player in both women and men national teams. Per FIBA regulations, Bosnia and Herzegovina native Ognjen Kuzmić, despite being of Serbian ethnicity, counts as a naturalized player.

Katastroika
01-02-2020, 06:02 AM
We already had a naturalized player in both women and men national teams. Per FIBA regulations, Bosnia and Herzegovina native Ognjen Kuzmić, despite being of Serbian ethnicity, counts as a naturalized player.

I'm aware of that and I don't have problems with that as the connection from Serbian players from Bosnia to Serbian national team is more often stronger than from those here. I spoke with Levenspiel about that thing before World Cup one time, of course it might seem unfair to others. For me Lukovski was also no problem. Like someone mentioned before, it's getting really funny when someone is trying to find some grandmothers and grandfathers who might have some ancestry in your country (but they are pure Americans) to give them citizenship. I would never accept Kaminsky for example even some guys are trying to argument with some pictures in some Serbian team from Chicago he had playing for in the age of 13-14. The guy is pure American and for me it hardly makes any difference to Rice in Montenegro. Rakocevic for example for me is okay, guy speaks Serbian even born overseas and played for Serbian U20, has strong bond with people here and is absolutely someone who could be called up.

For women's basketball - neither I follow it nor I'm interested in it.

Toruko
01-04-2020, 03:49 PM
HOME • EN (English) • National Teams •

Turkoglu: If meeting with Larkin’s agent goes well, we’ll see him with Turkey

04/Jan/20 11:08

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Shane Larkin is closer than ever to join the Turkish national team.

By Eurohoops team / [email protected]

Turkish Basketball Federation president Hedo Turkoglu said that a meeting between him and Shane Larkin’s agent will determine whether the star guard will join the Turkish national team as a naturalized player.

“Me and my staff made attempts, together with Larkin’s agent. His agent is going to come to Turkey today. If the meeting goes well, we will see Shane Larkin with the jersey of the Turkish national team,” Turkoglu said to TRT network.

Well it seems we will go with Larkin for the next time. Letting the origin discussion beside he is an upgrade in play making for sure. His agility and penetration will open up many spots for shooting and driving on the offensive end. A hell of a fast team. Defense will be a problem of course. No rim protection neither Erden nor Sanli nor Yurtseven gives you much at that point. Larkin is a pesky play maker but causes also many mismatches but our 95-97 generation develops well. Unlike in the past we will have a stable bench contribution which will make us more competitive.

Chuck Diesel
01-10-2020, 06:08 AM
Nationality is an imaginary construct. Russia & Slovenia didn't enjoy their Eurobasket golds any less because Americans were integral parts of their team. Macedonia has never had more fun than the Bo McCalebb run of 2011. Be grateful for the best players willing to put on your colors in the summer.

If a naturalized American ever became the best basketball option I’d be happy to have him, regardless of his imagined “nationality.”

Mindozas
01-11-2020, 12:19 PM
Nationality is an imaginary construct. Russia & Slovenia didn't enjoy their Eurobasket golds any less because Americans were integral parts of their team. Macedonia has never had more fun than the Bo McCalebb run of 2011. Be grateful for the best players willing to put on your colors in the summer.

If a naturalized American ever became the best basketball option I’d be happy to have him, regardless of his imagined “nationality.”

Russia did enjoy it less, I've seen lot of negative opinions regarding naturalized players, lately even players admitted that they feel way better without any naturalized players on team, i.e. such Bolomboy wasn't that welcome in NT, even tho his mother is Russian. I can't say about general opinion in Slovenia or Macedonia, cause I'm not reading their forums/comments.
Anyway, good that at least not much people in FIBA sees nationality in national team sports as imaginary construct

madmax
01-11-2020, 01:55 PM
if a certain american hoops player spends a whole lot of time in a foreign country and eventually embraces it's culture, identity and language, who's to say that he's not eligible to play for the NT? The year is 2020 and the the world is becming boundaries-less more and more with each passing year. I say let the player decide if he truly feels like he belongs to the certain culture before condemning and ridiculing him

Mindozas
01-11-2020, 02:54 PM
if a certain american hoops player spends a whole lot of time in a foreign country and eventually embraces it's culture, identity and language, who's to say that he's not eligible to play for the NT? The year is 2020 and the the world is becming boundaries-less more and more with each passing year. I say let the player decide if he truly feels like he belongs to the certain culture before condemning and ridiculing him

Maybe because he is still American? :rolleyes: It's not like one day you feel like don't want to eat meat anymore and you become vegetarian LOL. Maybe after good showing with new NT, the same player will move to bigger league, spend few years in other country and will start to feel even deeper connection, so let him play in that NT now, right? Or these feelings appears when Euro passport is needed to move to some Spanish ACB and not to be counted as foreigner + earn bigger money?
Of course there are genuine cases, so only such cases should be allowed to fill that one naturalized player spot. Even tho it's still not ok, but this rule won't be abolished, so at least make more sense

Chuck Diesel
01-11-2020, 07:05 PM
Russia did enjoy it less, I've seen lot of negative opinions regarding naturalized players, lately even players admitted that they feel way better without any naturalized players on team, i.e. such Bolomboy wasn't that welcome in NT, even tho his mother is Russian. I can't say about general opinion in Slovenia or Macedonia, cause I'm not reading their forums/comments.
Anyway, good that at least not much people in FIBA sees nationality in national team sports as imaginary construct

If some Russian fans online enjoyed it any less that's too bad. 2007 was the likely apex of their national team success & they'd rather harbor negativity over an imagined national construct. Joel Bolomboy wasn't welcome? Hmmm, wonder why...

Mindozas
01-14-2020, 11:57 AM
If some Russian fans online enjoyed it any less that's too bad. 2007 was the likely apex of their national team success & they'd rather harbor negativity over an imagined national construct. Joel Bolomboy wasn't welcome? Hmmm, wonder why...

There's nothing to wonder about actually - it's national team competition, so they just follows the idea of it, the same way I do, even tho I has nothing against Bolomboy, cause his mother is at least Russian, but I'm totally against JR Holden, Kelly McCarthy, Travis Hansen cases. If you dislike that imagined national construct - that's fine, there's already competition format for your taste - it's called clubs basketball ;) NBA, Euroleague or some other you maybe prefer has no restrictions what comes to foreign players, all is open, all 12 or more can be non local citizens. Maybe NT competition format its just simply not your cup of tea? As its build exactly for the reason to compete among nations. To decide which one is the best in one sport or another. That's the main idea of it ever since it started. What's the point in it if there'll be foreigner competing for other nation. It's like adding one older player to some u-20 youth competition. No sense at all. If you are missing a player in one given position, it's nothing but your own problem - live with it, try to cope with it, try to play differently, change the playing system, youth development system. Lithuania is short of PGs and it's also just our problem, the holes in our youth development system back in 90s. There are many ways, not try to choose the easiest one, its a shame that FIBA allows it to some degree and competition is long time not what was supposed to be, but it always can get worse, so I can live with current format

Toruko
02-01-2020, 11:57 AM
Shane Larkin decided to play for Turkey.


I am honored and humbled to have an opportunity to represent this country by joining the Turkish National Team. Extremely excited to wear this jersey with the Turkish Flag across my chest with pride.

https://twitter.com/shanelarkin_3/status/1223574298255818753?s=21

Straight forward
02-01-2020, 12:16 PM
Shane Larkin decided to play for Turkey.



https://twitter.com/shanelarkin_3/status/1223574298255818753?s=21

LOL. What a joke :D

Straight forward
02-01-2020, 12:24 PM
Even bigger joke that Croatian federation also tried to grab him. What exactly he has to do with Croatia?

To sum up, I don't really give a damn about Slovenia, Croatia, Turkey and similar NTs, those take any random American without zero f...and as far as it goes, I really hope that kind of NTs will fail or let's say their titles are irrelevant and fake.

Katastroika
02-01-2020, 05:36 PM
I have the same feeling - zero respect for this and simmilar moves of some federations. One the one hand you have guys like Furkan Korkmaz and Cedi Osman which show up every fucking year since they are children, on the other hand they have to step aside for a random American year after year. This rule is one of the worst in FIBA basketball. Unfortunately there are small chances that it will be overthrown ever.

Better be last with that you have than win something with naturalization of Americans.

mojo13
02-01-2020, 05:46 PM
I have the same feeling - zero respect for this and simmilar moves of some federations. One the one hand you have guys like Furkan Korkmaz and Cedi Osman which show up every fucking year since they are children, on the other hand they have to step aside for a random American year after year. This rule is one of the worst in FIBA basketball. Unfortunately there are small chances that it will be overthrown ever.

Better be last with that you have than win something with naturalization of Americans.

Despite our personal distaste for such a blatant purchase of a player, this s a nice pick-up for Turkey filling a big hole. How do you rate a Larkin Turkey vs a full strength Czech and/or a Giannis-less Greece?

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 08:03 PM
Even bigger joke that Croatian federation also tried to grab him. What exactly he has to do with Croatia?

To sum up, I don't really give a damn about Slovenia, Croatia, Turkey and similar NTs, those take any random American without zero f...and as far as it goes, I really hope that kind of NTs will fail or let's say their titles are irrelevant and fake.

You cry so much because you don’t give a damn? I’m curious what would be if you did, hehe.
The truth is this rule exists for ages now, one naturalization is allowed, and we have seen countries like Russia, Slovenia and Spain lift trophies with it, and many more smaller countries became more competitive. Think of Hungary, Ukraine, Finland, Montenegro.

The problem is there is only a limited number of quality Americans that are worth naturalizing, and countries like Lithuania and Serbia who have bad national leagues but good quality national players, often will not land a valuable foreigner. It is no coincidence that’s why you guys cry most about this rule. You were Lithuanian? Ofcourse you’re not going to naturalize a limited player like Walkup when he’d add nothing. Even quality guys like Davies are no improvement to Valanciunas, and if they were they only use your country as a stepping stone for something higher, in Brandons case Barcelona. Fine, don’t naturalize but stop crying as if this rule existed for only 2 years. I can tolerate a Lithuanian but I find it utter nonsense when nationalities with naturalization past also cry about Larkin. Their problem is nothing but jealousy. Let it go, this rule wont change, either profit from it or keep quiet, nobody cares about your opinion

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 08:08 PM
Despite our personal distaste for such a blatant purchase of a player, this s a nice pick-up for Turkey filling a big hole. How do you rate a Larkin Turkey vs a full strength Czech and/or a Giannis-less Greece?

It’s not a purchase, these Americans are not eligible to be recruited in their own national teams. When you’re competing with Curry, Lilliard, Irving and Walker it’s normal. But some competitive players may want to experience the Olympics or Fiba tournament. Isnt it perfectly normal? It’s not like these naturalized Americans were robbed away from the american national team for money, cut it out with those cheap rhetorics. Larkin was the one who initiated his desire to play in interviews, the Turkish federation merely acted upon that.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 08:15 PM
Despite our personal distaste for such a blatant purchase of a player, this s a nice pick-up for Turkey filling a big hole. How do you rate a Larkin Turkey vs a full strength Czech and/or a Giannis-less Greece?

Are you serious with this question?

mojo13
02-01-2020, 08:38 PM
Are you serious with this question?

In what matter is a question like this a joke?

Yes, it is a serious question. I have considered Greece and Czech more viable threats in this qualifier than Turkey, I assume this makes Turkey a more realistic contender. I’m curious if posters here would consider a Turkey with Larkin a potentially better team than Greece. No need for you to answer, I’m curious about less bias posters’ opinions.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 08:42 PM
In what matter is a question like this a joke?

Yes, it is a serious question. I have considered Greece and Czech more viable threats in this qualifier than Turkey, I assume this makes Turkey a more realistic contender. I’m curious if posters here would consider a Turkey with Larkin a potentially better team than Greece. No need for you to answer, I’m curious about less bias posters’ opinions.

Well i didnt want to answer in the first place. Considering Czech a bigger threat cant be taken seriously anyway.

Katastroika
02-01-2020, 08:42 PM
You cry so much because you don’t give a damn? I’m curious what would be if you did, hehe.
The truth is this rule exists for ages now, one naturalization is allowed, and we have seen countries like Russia, Slovenia and Spain lift trophies with it, and many more smaller countries became more competitive. Think of Hungary, Ukraine, Finland, Montenegro.

The problem is there is only a limited number of quality Americans that are worth naturalizing, and countries like Lithuania and Serbia who have bad national leagues but good quality national players, often will not land a valuable foreigner. It is no coincidence that’s why you guys cry most about this rule. You were Lithuanian? Ofcourse you’re not going to naturalize a limited player like Walkup when he’d add nothing. Even quality guys like Davies are no improvement to Valanciunas, and if they were they only use your country as a stepping stone for something higher, in Brandons case Barcelona. Fine, don’t naturalize but stop crying as if this rule existed for only 2 years. I can tolerate a Lithuanian but I find it utter nonsense when nationalities with naturalization past also cry about Larkin. Their problem is nothing but jealousy. Let it go, this rule wont change, either profit from it or keep quiet, nobody cares about your opinion

I'm not Lithuanian but we have simmilar views so I feel free to tell it from Serbian perspective. I think that Serbian federation would have all possible chances for taking a high quality player like Larkin. Larkin wanted to play for Croatia for example first but their president avoided direct negotiations. It's a state of principle. In Serbia some players even directly said that they wouldn't participate any more in national team actions if some Americans would play for us. The basketball national team is viewed as some kind of masterpiece of Serbian sport, maybe more, some thing that has been created for generations now - something cultural, spiritual, mysthical.

I don't think anyone is crying, there is also no problem, noone is jelaous, I like some Turkish players a lot and wish them all the best, they seem to be very good and well raised boys, how someone could wish them something bad if you speak about Furkan or Cedi for example? This kids are angels, it's visible in their faces.

Personally I wouldn't even follow the tournament if we naturalize a player and to me it's not important if it's some friend of Jokic or Bogdanovic from their NBA teams or some player from lower tier leagues in Serbia. We are very bad in football and what should we do now? Of course work better, try harder. That's it. Do you really want to tell me that it's the same for your if an American plays for you or a Turk? Really? Why we have national teams competitions then?

Anyways, good luck. Turkey is always interesting to watch.

PS: I just thought that maybe we are raised different in this opinion, in your country football is sport number one, here and in Lithuania it is not. I think I understand how Lithuanians watch about their national team because I spoke with them at big competitions when I met their fans and the view is the same as here. It's simply impossible. People would not accept it.

mojo13
02-01-2020, 08:47 PM
It’s not a purchase, these Americans are not eligible to be recruited in their own national teams. When you’re competing with Curry, Lilliard, Irving and Walker it’s normal. But some competitive players may want to experience the Olympics or Fiba tournament. Isnt it perfectly normal? It’s not like these naturalized Americans were robbed away from the american national team for money, cut it out with those cheap rhetorics. Larkin was the one who initiated his desire to play in interviews, the Turkish federation merely acted upon that.

Is Turkey paying Larkin for his services? Do you think they offered more or less than Croatia?

I think what unsettles people are these very unnatural naturalizations where the player has very little to do with its new nation. I understand the naturalization of someone who had parents or grandparents from the country. Per perhaps have a wife and kids of that nationality and been living there for many years. This just comes across as outright mercenarial. More Andre Blatche type purchasing of players.

It is what it is - legal within FIBAs rules, but somewhat makes a mockery of the rule. And frankly I kind of support it for weaker basketball nations to help level the playing field. Perhaps Canada should purchase Pascal Siakam? Unfortunately the citizenship process in Canada is not governed by a dictator with a magic wand.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 08:48 PM
To put an end to this naturalization discussion. Except two or three teams every nt is using a naturalized player. All this exceptions have the right to discuss about it but also the right doing the same so the fact of the matter is this right exists and gets used. I hope that some day we wont need a foreign point guard but it will be fun to watch this extraordinarily talented offensive team. :D

mojo13
02-01-2020, 08:48 PM
Well i didnt want to answer in the first place. Considering Czech a bigger threat cant be taken seriously anyway.

Just going by how Czechia and Turkey have looked in the last few major FIBA events. Czechia is clearly a sum or more than its parts.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 08:49 PM
Is Turkey paying Larkin for his services? Do you think they offered more or less than Croatia?

I think what unsettles people are these very unnatural naturalizations where the player has very little to do with its new nation. I understand the naturalization of someone who had parents or grandparents from the country. Per perhaps have a wife and kids of that nationality and been living there for many years. This just comes across as outright mercenarial. More Andre Blatche type purchasing of players.

It is what it is - legal within FIBAs rules, but somewhat makes a mockery of the rule. And frankly I kind of support it for weaker basketball nations to help level the playing field. Perhaps Canada should purchase Pascal Siakam? Unfortunately the citizenship process in Canada is not governed by a dictator with a magic wand.

Canada itself is a naturalization since there is no tribe called Canadian.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 08:53 PM
Just going by how Czechia and Turkey have looked in the last few major FIBA events. Czechia is clearly a sum or more than its parts.

You need to understand the circumstances. If you play a great game against the united states, defeat them technically in OT and lose the game because you cant make 1 of 4 free throws, lose your only defensive player due to an injury and play a do or die game one day after can make you lose.

mojo13
02-01-2020, 08:55 PM
To put an end to this naturalization discussion. Except two or three teams every nt is using a naturalized player. All this exceptions have the right to discuss about it but also the right doing the same so the fact of the matter is this right exists and gets used. I hope that some day we wont need a foreign point guard but it will be fun to watch this extraordinarily talented offensive team. :D

Do all but two or three have naturalized players? Seems many (or most?) American and African team don’t. This seems a European (guards) and Asian (bigs) problem.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 08:57 PM
Do all but two or three have naturalized players? Seems many (or most?) American and African team don’t. This seems a European (guards) and Asian (bigs) problem.

You can have many naturalized player but only one can play. Having more than one gives you a certain flexibility if one gets injured

mojo13
02-01-2020, 09:16 PM
You can have many naturalized player but only one can play. Having more than one gives you a certain flexibility if one gets injured

I was referring to fact that many (maybe most) countries don’t have a single naturalized player if you look at things globally.
Were there more than 2 or 3 total in the Top 10 at the WC? More than 4 or 5 in the Top 20? I don’t know - just going off of recall here, and I don’t remember too many. I’m disputing the comment that “everyone does this” and it is actually more in the minority. Maybe I am wrong....

Toruko
02-01-2020, 09:21 PM
I was referring to fact that many (maybe most) countries don’t have a single naturalized player if you look at things globally.
Were there more than 2 or 3 total in the Top 10 at the WC? More than 4 or 5 in the Top 20? I don’t know - just going off of recall here, and I don’t remember too many. I’m disputing the comment that “everyone does this” and it is actually more in the minority. Maybe I am wrong....

I got you know. Well Spain had in the last decade one of the best european teams of all time and it didnt prevent them to naturalize Mirotic and Ibaka. I hadnt head any objections back then.

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 09:38 PM
I'm not Lithuanian but we have simmilar views so I feel free to tell it from Serbian perspective. I think that Serbian federation would have all possible chances for taking a high quality player like Larkin. Larkin wanted to play for Croatia for example first but their president avoided direct negotiations. It's a state of principle. In Serbia some players even directly said that they wouldn't participate any more in national team actions if some Americans would play for us. The basketball national team is viewed as some kind of masterpiece of Serbian sport, maybe more, some thing that has been created for generations now - something cultural, spiritual, mysthical.

I don't think anyone is crying, there is also no problem, noone is jelaous, I like some Turkish players a lot and wish them all the best, they seem to be very good and well raised boys, how someone could wish them something bad if you speak about Furkan or Cedi for example? This kids are angels, it's visible in their faces.

Personally I wouldn't even follow the tournament if we naturalize a player and to me it's not important if it's some friend of Jokic or Bogdanovic from their NBA teams or some player from lower tier leagues in Serbia. We are very bad in football and what should we do now? Of course work better, try harder. That's it. Do you really want to tell me that it's the same for your if an American plays for you or a Turk? Really? Why we have national teams competitions then?

Anyways, good luck. Turkey is always interesting to watch.

PS: I just thought that maybe we are raised different in this opinion, in your country football is sport number one, here and in Lithuania it is not. I think I understand how Lithuanians watch about their national team because I spoke with them at big competitions when I met their fans and the view is the same as here. It's simply impossible. People would not accept it.


I respect your opinion, and I specifically mentioned Lithuanians and Serbians, the only places where basketball is bigger than football, so I can somewhat tolerate it when you aren’t fond of this rule... but my problem is that this rule is completely fair, every country has a right to practice it, and there is a logical limit of only 1 player. You just CHOOSE not to use it. I do not understand why people are so confrontational about something that is merely a choice. It’s not a new rule, so going round in circles with criticism is futile. Our federation and people (as for the majority of Fiba members) don’t share this stance of yours. You’re the minority with this opinion, so you can’t expect people to move according to how you feel about it.

But you also need to realize what I said before is true. The best team in your league, Zvezda, doesnt have a Larkin level player who enjoys the sympathy of the entire country. Imagine if it did, and this player would publicly recruit himself for the Serbian national team, do you really think all Serbians would be against it? I doubt it. There is a difference between seeking a naturalization who doesn’t even live in your country, or accepting one who gives this desire himself. You cant compare Randolph to Larkin. We arent out on the market desperately looking to find foreigners, but when the situation develops in such a way I am more than happy to comply. I dont need to explain that I sympathize with players like Furkan ofcourse, that should be obvious from my profile, but Larkin is there to complement Furkan, not to take his place. We have already lost 2 quality NBA level players to politics and disease (Kanter and Asik). Our entire center rotation is near extinct. We are unlucky in this regard, but when a character like Larkin is available, he’s welcome.

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 09:51 PM
Is Turkey paying Larkin for his services? Do you think they offered more or less than Croatia?

I think what unsettles people are these very unnatural naturalizations where the player has very little to do with its new nation. I understand the naturalization of someone who had parents or grandparents from the country. Per perhaps have a wife and kids of that nationality and been living there for many years. This just comes across as outright mercenarial. More Andre Blatche type purchasing of players.

It is what it is - legal within FIBAs rules, but somewhat makes a mockery of the rule. And frankly I kind of support it for weaker basketball nations to help level the playing field. Perhaps Canada should purchase Pascal Siakam? Unfortunately the citizenship process in Canada is not governed by a dictator with a magic wand.

Larkin was not in active talks with the Croatian federation, a Croatian interviewer just asked him if hypothetically he would like to play for Croatia. Larkin said he was open for the idea, but then quickly started flirting with the Turkish national team after Turkish interviewers opened the topic of his willingness to play on an NT. He made it clear that he had a strong preference for Turkey. There was no such thing as a bid war, Larkin lives in Turkey and naturally choose us over Croatia. Croatia also tried, but they never stood a chance.

And yes it is easier to get a Turkish citizenship than a Canadian one, but this also counts for regular people who apply. The process can be significantly sped up if you have someone with high government function, the president of our basketball federation Turkoglu is a sports advisor for the government, Turkey is not as bureaucratic as Canada, but Turkey also is not a dictatorship, save those those cheap rhetorics for someone else. If you dont take it for my word simply have a look at the International democracy index. We’re way above the dictatorship line, unlike our neighbors in Armenia or big countries like Russia and China. How strange that people cant live without calling the Turkish president a dictator, but for some reason are quiet when it comes to other, actual dictators, like the Chinese president.

Katastroika
02-01-2020, 09:53 PM
I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

mojo13
02-01-2020, 10:11 PM
Larkin was not in active talks with the Croatian federation, a Croatian interviewer just asked him if hypothetically he would like to play for Croatia. Larkin said he was open for the idea, but then quickly started flirting with the Turkish national team after Turkish interviewers opened the topic of his willingness to play on an NT. He made it clear that he had a strong preference for Turkey. There was no such thing as a bid war, Larkin lives in Turkey and naturally choose us over Croatia. Croatia also tried, but they never stood a chance.

And yes it is easier to get a Turkish citizenship than a Canadian one, but this also counts for regular people who apply. The process can be significantly sped up if you have someone with high government function, the president of our basketball federation Turkoglu is a sports advisor for the government, Turkey is not as bureaucratic as Canada, but Turkey also is not a dictatorship, save those those cheap rhetorics for someone else. If you dont take it for my word simply have a look at the International democracy index. We’re way above the dictatorship line, unlike our neighbors in Armenia or big countries like Russia and China. How strange that people cant live without calling the Turkish president a dictator, but for some reason are quiet when it comes to other, actual dictators, like the Chinese president.

Thanks for point out that democracy index it is a pretty cool tool - and I will certainly not defend China or Russia...far, far from it.

It does seem Turkey is above the line barely. Looks like the cutoff is 4.0 and Turkey is 4.09 on a 10 point scale. Not "way above the dictatorship line" by any means but technically you are correct (110th out of 167 countries). But I wouldn't consider my comment cheap rhetoric either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Regardless - my apologies to go down that path, Turkey is a beautiful country and from an outsiders perspective with limited knowledge its regrettable is see Turkey's path away from democracy over the last decade, but this also hold true with far too many countries in this day of age.

But I don't think any of us are really here to talk politics....so moving on.



Back to the topics- what does Larkin do for Turkey's chances? How much of an improvement is this? What are your realistic expectations for Turkey vs Canada, Czechia and Greece? I suppose Canada is still too unknown to realistically consider.

mojo13
02-01-2020, 10:19 PM
I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.



I am not sure I like the "fairness" of the naturalization rule. Yes, anyone is technically allowed do it, but in practice it is far, far more easy for countries that have certain levels of domestic leagues where the talent pool sits as well as countries with looser citizenship rules and regulations. It is very, very difficult for some countries to naturalize a player, if not impossible.

Many years ago Canada Basketball tried very hard to get Matt Bonner naturalized. His wife was a Canadian, he had Canadian grandparents, a Canadian child and had lived many years in Canada. But for whatever the rules were, he was not allowed Canadian citizenship. I think the hang up was he had to have lived 5 uninterrupted years straight in Canada without leaving for more than a few weeks - or something else quite strict like that.

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 10:25 PM
I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.


Well you must hold into account you can never be sure when circumstances change There are many factors. The reason I spoke about people crying or jealousy for example wasn’t because of what guys like you say, but the hypocrisy I noticed in general. I have seen Greeks complain about Larkin for example, but in the meantime in their most popular sport, football, there is a Portuguese player at the starting 11. These same people also used to call France and USA “Africa” everytime they competed, but now suddenly, since they got an African immigrant turn into an NBA star, take a whole different stance. People will claim “A” but when the circumstances change suddenly turn “B”. Serbia has a great team, doesnt really need naturalization, but imagine if the circumstances were severely different, how can you guarantee anything? Anyway this is why I think this discussion doesnt have much use, I dont like hypocrisy from people who use naturalized players themselves but only cry about others just for the sake of crying, but you aren’t one of those guys so I respect your opinion but politely disagree that’s all. Cheers to you aswell.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 10:36 PM
Turkey was without Larkin and a true play maker (Berk Ugurlu got injured before the tournament started) and without Wilbekin (played injured in the second game) the fifth best offensive team in the tournament with 87 Points average per game. Turkeys main Scorer (3 guys) Melih Mahmutoglu (one of the best shooters in Europe), Furkan Korkmaz and Ersan Ilyasova are very very potent scorers who can create their own shots. With Larkins penetratings it will be very easy for these guys to score and this will be the main task of Larkin. In crunch times Larkin, Korkmaz and Ilyasova can take the responsibility.

I think the options will be like:

1. scoring option Furkan Korkmaz
2. Shane Larkin
3. Ersan Ilyasova
4. Cedi Osman

This is without a doubt the best offensive team (except Canada) in the tournament. Open shots for them will open up much space for Larkin as well.

The problem of Turkey was always the defense. Nearly all turkish player were/are horrible defenders except Ersan Ilyasova and Cedi Osman. Especially Furkan Korkmaz was a horrible really horrible defender but this season he turned to a bearable player on the defensive end in the nba. This is promising.

The next question mark is our 21 year old nba draft ncaa prospect Omer Yurtseven. Can do everything on the offensive end. (shoots the three, very solid midranger, half hook etc.) who is definitely a power up against old man Semih Erden who was horrible during the wc. He is not a great defender but he is a real seven footer so he will give rebounding and better rim protection.

In addition all the young prospects of turkey reached a age where they can contribute in Eurocup level. This gives better bench power.

Premised all players come without an injury czechs are not a problem at all. The same goes for Greece without Giannis. With Giannis it should be a 50/50 thing. It means Greek defense and experience against turkish power and speed. Greece is in addition the team with the better chemistry since they have been playing for a long time together. Turkey wont have the time for a long preparation.

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 10:51 PM
Thanks for point out that democracy index it is a pretty cool tool - and I will certainly not defend China or Russia...far, far from it.

It does seem Turkey is above the line barely. Looks like the cutoff is 4.0 and Turkey is 4.09 on a 10 point scale. Not "way above the dictatorship line" by any means but technically you are correct (110th out of 167 countries). But I wouldn't consider my comment cheap rhetoric either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Regardless - my apologies to go down that path, Turkey is a beautiful country and from an outsiders perspective with limited knowledge its regrettable is see Turkey's path away from democracy over the last decade, but this also hold true with far too many countries in this day of age.

But I don't think any of us are really here to talk politics....so moving on.



Back to the topics- what does Larkin do for Turkey's chances? How much of an improvement is this? What are your realistic expectations for Turkey vs Canada, Czechia and Greece? I suppose Canada is still too unknown to realistically consider.

What Larkin does? Well even without Larkin Turkey has a pretty good team, let me first say that. You could see that in our match against the USA. But Turkey has no decent point guards AND no centers. We used to have NBA centers but lost them like I mentioned before. This fact makes Turkey vulnerable and inconsistent. Look, the Czech have a good team, but it’s nowhere near as competitive as ours can be. We just wasted our energy on the USA and didn’t overcome the mental letdown in time. We let the Czech talls (a position where we are limited) abuse us. But last year we played the Czech in a friendly tournament in Germany. It was the final. The Czech had Vesely and still lost to us double digits. We didnt even have a naturalized player here. This was even before Wilbekin. Larkin is the best player in Europe right now, and since we have nobodu close to his level in this position he adds a whole new dimension to this already decent team. Then there’s also some talented centers coming up, like Yurtseven who you might already see in Canada, and on the longer run guys like Bona and Sengun. There is no USA to drag us down in Canada, Turkey will win the first round group easy, and if Giannis doesn’t show up, will also be the heavy favorite against Greece. Canada if coming with a full squad however is still too much for Turkey, I give us 30% chance against you.... on a good day you never know. Without Larkin I give us only 5% chance, this is what Larkin adds to Turkey...

As for the off topic Democracy index rating, it was actually ranked way above 5, it seems we dropped a bit. I know what must be the cause, but like you said I’m not here to discuss politics. We are a flawed democracy, sure, but certainly is not a dictatorship. Our president just enjoys cult status popularity from the poor regions that developed under his term, which makes him act spoilt. That’s all.

Jon_Koncak
02-01-2020, 10:54 PM
I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

It cant be challenged because FIBA doesnt have the power and authority to tell sovereign countries whether one person is eligible for citizenship or not.What happens with this rule is a compromise.I've said it again FIFA which is 1000 times more powerful than FIBA doesnt have any rule regarding naturalised players at all!China uses Brazilians,Italy uses Argentines,Greece naturilised Zeca, a portugese player because they lacked defensive midfielders badly.

madmax
02-01-2020, 11:11 PM
Larkin will not be a differencer maker against elite FIBA squads anyway - whatever spacing he gives and provides offensively, he will give up the same defensively due to his size. Smart teams with big guards will know for sure how to take him out of the game

Katastroika
02-01-2020, 11:15 PM
It cant be challenged because FIBA doesnt have the power and authority to tell sovereign countries whether one person is eligible for citizenship or not.What happens with this rule is a compromise.I've said it again FIFA which is 1000 times more powerful than FIBA doesnt have any rule regarding naturalised players at all!China uses Brazilians,Italy uses Argentines,Greece naturilised Zeca, a portugese player because they lacked defensive midfielders badly.

Of course it could be challenged. Now you have the situation that natural federations can block player availability for a country if he changes citizenship in his youth until he is 21 under FIBA rules. Just regulate it that way that a player registered in one country's federations youth systems can't ever play for another. If you want it you can of course let some special situations open (for example if a player is born in Germany and has Turk origins and starts playing basketball in Oldenburg - this could be treated as a special case if there are serious reasons.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 11:21 PM
Larkin will not be a differencer maker against elite FIBA squads anyway - whatever spacing he gives and provides offensively, he will give up the same defensively due to his size. Smart teams with big guards will know for sure how to take him out of the game

This is bs. It it was so it would be as you say in euroleague.

Furkan Korkmaz
02-01-2020, 11:23 PM
Larkin will not be a differencer maker against elite FIBA squads anyway - whatever spacing he gives and provides offensively, he will give up the same defensively due to his size. Smart teams with big guards will know for sure how to take him out of the game

Okay this is true, Larkin wont make a difference against Kawhi Leonards and Kevin Durants... (if these show up) but how many supposed elite squads are there? Should I remind you what Campazzo did against Jokic, Bogdanovic, Bjelica. This is in your opinion an elite squad right? I mean Giannis got eliminated by Coboclo and Varejao. This snobbish elite squad nonsense doesn’t work in practice. Larkin is thrice the player Campazzo is and surely will make a difference against anyone except a full squad USA.

Toruko
02-01-2020, 11:28 PM
We mustnt forget bb is a team sport and Larkin is a pesky defender, really fast in the passing lanes. He wont stay in the paint and let others play post situations. Its true that Satoransky and Calathes are taller but its not an advantage because Larkin is five times faster. I saw 100 times how he stole the ball in front of other guards.

madmax
02-02-2020, 12:28 AM
This is bs. It it was so it would be as you say in euroleague.

sorry to burst to your bubble, but Euroleague basketball does not equal the best that FIBA teams can provide, not even close...all of the best FIBA players play in NBA and your regular playoff game in FIBA is of similar quality to NBA playoffs level of basketball. Hell, your own team almost beat Team USA in WC without the help of Larkins of this world if not for choking at the free throw line...

Toruko
02-02-2020, 12:45 AM
sorry to burst to your bubble, but Euroleague basketball does not equal the best that FIBA teams can provide, not even close...all of the best FIBA players play in NBA and your regular playoff game in FIBA is of similar quality to NBA playoffs level of basketball. Hell, your own team almost beat Team USA in WC without the help of Larkins of this world if not for choking at the free throw line...

You havent burst anything. I have played enough active basketball myself and watched even longer. The first achievement is the qualification. Even this would be a tremendous achievement and on the way will be just one nba guard from Europe that I very like Satoransky. I acknowledge their chemistry but it remains a team with a bunch of low level players and Greece can just provide Euroleague guards.

Canada with full power is a different story of course but will they be with full power? We dont know. If Turkey qualifies the outcome of the olympics is not very important. I dont expect to beat a full squad USA team. There will be some beatable and not beatable teams. No problem.

R1ou
02-02-2020, 06:43 PM
Well you must hold into account you can never be sure when circumstances change There are many factors. The reason I spoke about people crying or jealousy for example wasn’t because of what guys like you say, but the hypocrisy I noticed in general. I have seen Greeks complain about Larkin for example, but in the meantime in their most popular sport, football, there is a Portuguese player at the starting 11. These same people also used to call France and USA “Africa” everytime they competed, but now suddenly, since they got an African immigrant turn into an NBA star, take a whole different stance. People will claim “A” but when the circumstances change suddenly turn “B”. Serbia has a great team, doesnt really need naturalization, but imagine if the circumstances were severely different, how can you guarantee anything? Anyway this is why I think this discussion doesnt have much use, I dont like hypocrisy from people who use naturalized players themselves but only cry about others just for the sake of crying, but you aren’t one of those guys so I respect your opinion but politely disagree that’s all. Cheers to you aswell.

Or like how Turkey had a Brazilian football defender playing for them back in 00's. Would appreciate btw if you provide some evidence on these ''Africa'' name calling unless you bring them out of your head. And no people don't really complain about Larkin since Turkey have had rotating naturalized players in the past between Preldzic, Dixon and Wilbekin so it's not something new. They just see they can't produce a decent level PG so they take advantage of the rule. Nothing illegal or new here.

ZaliaBalta
02-03-2020, 07:31 AM
Wow.

Am I seeing things, or this turkish dude just talked about jealousy? Are you serious bro? You can only be jealous about a particular player that actually belongs to his national team and can actually carry the flag of his own country. You can be jealous about such talents as Teodosič (in his prime), Bogdan Bogdanovič, Bojan Bogdanovič, Luka Dončič, Goran Dragič, Diamantidis, Porzingis, Gasol brothers, Rubio and a lot of other players that are actually supposed to play for their countries and are natural talents on the court. One will NEVER be jealous about players like Larkin in Turkey, Wilbekin in Turkey, McCalebb in Macedonia, Randolph in Slovenia and so on. Cause they were not born, raised or developed as players from particular nations. They were bought. Plain and clear. What does jealousy have to do here? People here are most definitely not jealous of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality, which you showed by throwing excuses that most of countries do this naturalization nonsense, so why can't we do it. With such big names like Larkin you just continue to spread this shit-trend even more.

Furkan Korkmaz
02-03-2020, 12:42 PM
Wow.

Am I seeing things, or this turkish dude just talked about jealousy? Are you serious bro? You can only be jealous about a particular player that actually belongs to his national team and can actually carry the flag of his own country. You can be jealous about such talents as Teodosič (in his prime), Bogdan Bogdanovič, Bojan Bogdanovič, Luka Dončič, Goran Dragič, Diamantidis, Porzingis, Gasol brothers, Rubio and a lot of other players that are actually supposed to play for their countries and are natural talents on the court. One will NEVER be jealous about players like Larkin in Turkey, Wilbekin in Turkey, McCalebb in Macedonia, Randolph in Slovenia and so on. Cause they were not born, raised or developed as players from particular nations. They were bought. Plain and clear. What does jealousy have to do here? People here are most definitely not jealous of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality, which you showed by throwing excuses that most of countries do this naturalization nonsense, so why can't we do it. With such big names like Larkin you just continue to spread this shit-trend even more.

Are YOU serious? Can you atleast try to read my posts properly and process the words accordingly? Where did I claim everyone is jealous? Why are you acting so triggered as if you were targeted personally? I was merely calling out the hypocrite folks I stumbled upon, there seems to be a couple. It is peculiar to me to come crying about the 1 (SINGLE) naturalized player on a national team when your own teams have naturalizations. Take the Greeks, they have a naturalized portuguese walking around in their most popular sport, football. And Calathes is just as American as Shane is. He even gives interviews to Greek television in English (because he cant speak Greek). You see, they are no stranger to naturalizations, but when it comes to our national team they feel the need to yap. Look I respect being against the rule, but I dont respect cherry picking. If they were so upset about naturalizations they better spend their effort to kick the Portuguese out of their football team. I dont tolerate hypocrisy

But you’re no stranger to empty yapping yourself. What makes you unbearable is this judgemental “my view is the only correct one” attitude of yours. Grow the ef up. You come with a weird list of players you worship, like Teodosic... who’s entire NBA career was dunking water bottles on the Clippers bench. Okay these guys are elite for EUROPEAN standards, but Larkin is too... even better than Teo... so rationally speaking Larkin is also in this list of yours...

But that’s where the problem starts, you are not rational. I don’t tolerate irrational fallacies.... a player is not defined by his jersey, but by what he is. Doncic was offered to be naturalized by Spain, just like Mirotic. Let’s say he accepted, suddenly he’s not worthy to be on this list of yours?? Even though he’s the most impressive name on it. You see your logical flaw? You can make up weird criteria and live it in your head, that’s your problem... but don’t bother me with it, because subjectively I dont agree with your nationality obsessed view. You can disagree with the rule of Fiba to allow a naturalization, but what you’re doing is nitpicking. Larkin cant play for his homecountry, so many would love to land him (Croatia tried). When people criticize his naturalization, even though this rule has exited and has been USED FOR YEARS now (countless naturalized players but we “”spread this shit trend””)? When I dont see constructive criticism I can only use terms like bitter, jealous and crybaby. If you’re not the first or second you surely are the third. I mean Doncic and Dragic on your list won a eurobasket medal with this “shit trend”, Randolph probably hasnt spent more than a week in Slovenia but was recruited by his former teammate and being the talented player he is was very valuable in the Euros. This is far from being a trend, it’s common practice.

Besides, it’s not like the Turkish federation begged Larkin, long before he was even on the mind of our federation he basically applied for this position himself: https://twitter.com/beinsports_tr/status/1176088389168312320?s=21

R1ou
02-03-2020, 01:26 PM
Yet again I might repeat people are not upset since it's something not new (Preldzic, Wilbekin and Dixon, previously with Ermal Kuqo and Mirsad Turkcan) although lately it has been spread to youth ages f.e with Biberovic and Dzanan Musa but the latter's case didn't blossom.

Also Turkey used to have a Brazilian named Mehmet Aurelio playing for them some years ago in case you missed it.

Btw there's not a single Greek here complaining for Larkin.

Toruko
02-03-2020, 03:15 PM
Yet again I might repeat people are not upset since it's something not new (Preldzic, Wilbekin and Dixon, previously with Ermal Kuqo and Mirsad Turkcan) although lately it has been spread to youth ages f.e with Biberovic and Dzanan Musa but the latter's case didn't blossom.

Also Turkey used to have a Brazilian named Mehmet Aurelio playing for them some years ago in case you missed it.

Btw there's not a single Greek here complaining for Larkin.

Because Greeks hasnt even a turkish contribution of youth and has with Tylor Dorsey and Zach Auguste two naturalizations. In addition to that also Kostas Koufos, Nick Calathes and the Antetoloumpos who would have counted today also as naturalizations. Everyone can complain, greeks cant.

TurkfromGermany
02-03-2020, 03:48 PM
Because Greeks hasnt even a turkish contribution of youth and has with Tylor Dorsey and Zach Auguste two naturalizations. In addition to that also Kostas Koufos, Nick Calathes

All these players are greeks or half greek. Ismet Akpinar is not a german, he is a turk etc............

Shawshank
02-03-2020, 04:01 PM
For me Russia 2007 , Macedonia 2011, Slovenia 2017 fantastic achievements smells badly and I'm not surprised all of them struggling badly now.

When you don't think how to fix problem long term,but just trying to buy with money and ale fixing short term problems eventually you are getting nowhere.

When Turks already bought 3 different Americans in like last 5-6 years it's just show no pride at all.Rule is rules sure,but what turkey doing with new American in every tournament is just shameful act even if it's playing by stupid rule.

No love and no support for such team.In national team competions pride wearing your NT t-shirt and hearing your anthem should mean something.

Toruko
02-03-2020, 05:49 PM
We all knew it but it seems to be safe now. According to Turkish Journalists who talked with Greek Journalists Giannis wont be during the qualifiers with the NT.

Ilyasova is on the turkish side also not safe but since it is his last chance to play Olympics he will come this time too.

R1ou
02-03-2020, 06:21 PM
Because Greeks hasnt even a turkish contribution of youth and has with Tylor Dorsey and Zach Auguste two naturalizations. In addition to that also Kostas Koufos, Nick Calathes and the Antetoloumpos who would have counted today also as naturalizations. Everyone can complain, greeks cant.

Zach Auguste has never played with the Greek NT, get your facts straight. Antetokounmpo family are born and raised in Greece pretty much like Ersan Ilyasova but they were not forced to change their name or fake their age fyi. The speculation about Giannis playing on summer is based on the Bucks playoffs run, not any official info from him or his agent. So that's pretty much some BS talk.

Toruko
02-03-2020, 06:32 PM
Zach Auguste has never played with the Greek NT, get your facts straight. Antetokounmpo family are born and raised in Greece pretty much like Ersan Ilyasova but they were not forced to change their name or fake their age fyi. The speculation about Giannis playing on summer is based on the Bucks playoffs run, not any official info from him or his agent. So that's pretty much some BS talk.

The Antetokounmpos got their passport after their 18th birthday just because they showed talent on basketball. He should have been counted as naturalized but Fiba decided otherwise because he was born in Greece (as child of refugees).

Well its pretty sure that he wont play in the qualifiers but i will rout for you. You will need him to have a chance to qualify for the Olympics.

mojo13
02-04-2020, 02:31 AM
The Antetokounmpos got their passport after their 18th birthday just because they showed talent on basketball. He should have been counted as naturalized but Fiba decided otherwise because he was born in Greece (as child of refugees).

Well its pretty sure that he wont play in the qualifiers but i will rout for you. You will need him to have a chance to qualify for the Olympics.


If you find any sources for Giannis’s absence, please be sure to post it. This is equally interesting to Canadian fans and we’d live to know. It’s all speculation from what I’ve seen so far.

okanial
02-05-2020, 02:49 PM
I was never a fan of neutralization. But with Larkin I want him on our team because he wanted this and not our federation. He asked for this and campainged for this.
He is also a great player which might have affected my wiev as well

Chuck Diesel
02-05-2020, 06:48 PM
Good for Larkin. Good for Turkey. Always the same "purity" obsessed countries who cry about naturalization.

Katastroika
02-05-2020, 08:45 PM
Good for Larkin. Good for Turkey. Always the same "purity" obsessed countries who cry about naturalization.

Purity. Serbia has a black player who played for years in youth categories because of his mother from South America and noone gives a shit if you are black, white, yellow, Christian, Muslim. We are against naturilzation of foreign players. And you are a troll.

Killer Bob
02-05-2020, 10:35 PM
For me Russia 2007 , Macedonia 2011, Slovenia 2017 fantastic achievements smells badly and I'm not surprised all of them struggling badly now.

When you don't think how to fix problem long term,but just trying to buy with money and ale fixing short term problems eventually you are getting nowhere.

When Turks already bought 3 different Americans in like last 5-6 years it's just show no pride at all.Rule is rules sure,but what turkey doing with new American in every tournament is just shameful act even if it's playing by stupid rule.

No love and no support for such team.In national team competions pride wearing your NT t-shirt and hearing your anthem should mean something.

Slovenia is struggling mostly because of stupid windows. We all know that best players are playing in Nba or Euroleague and you are playing qualifications in the middle of the season? It won't hurt big nations. But it will defiantly hurt small ones, especially if basketball is not sport #1. It will be a great pleasure putting you out of Olympics.

ZaliaBalta
02-06-2020, 08:02 AM
But you’re no stranger to empty yapping yourself. What makes you unbearable is this judgemental “my view is the only correct one” attitude of yours. Grow the ef up. You come with a weird list of players you worship, like Teodosic... who’s entire NBA career was dunking water bottles on the Clippers bench. Okay these guys are elite for EUROPEAN standards, but Larkin is too... even better than Teo... so rationally speaking Larkin is also in this list of yours...

Why did you stuck so much with that list? It is not some kind of a definite list, it's just for example reasons. Can't you really understand that the first list is of talented players that are actually national players, and the second list of players are talented naturalised players that have nothing to do with the country that they "proudly" represent. So obviously Larkin is in the talented players list, but definitely not in the same list with national players it National Teams Championships.


But that’s where the problem starts, you are not rational. I don’t tolerate irrational fallacies.... a player is not defined by his jersey, but by what he is. Doncic was offered to be naturalized by Spain, just like Mirotic. Let’s say he accepted, suddenly he’s not worthy to be on this list of yours?? Even though he’s the most impressive name on it. You see your logical flaw? You can make up weird criteria and live it in your head, that’s your problem... but don’t bother me with it, because subjectively I dont agree with your nationality obsessed view. You can disagree with the rule of Fiba to allow a naturalization, but what you’re doing is nitpicking. Larkin cant play for his homecountry, so many would love to land him (Croatia tried). When people criticize his naturalization, even though this rule has exited and has been USED FOR YEARS now (countless naturalized players but we “”spread this shit trend””)? When I dont see constructive criticism I can only use terms like bitter, jealous and crybaby. If you’re not the first or second you surely are the third. I mean Doncic and Dragic on your list won a eurobasket medal with this “shit trend”, Randolph probably hasnt spent more than a week in Slovenia but was recruited by his former teammate and being the talented player he is was very valuable in the Euros. This is far from being a trend, it’s common practice.

A player is defined by what he is - exactly. Larkin is american, no connections to Turkey at all. Dončič is slovenian, the key thing in his case is that yes exactly he did not accept Spain's offer, he did not choose the easy way out, just like nations choose while trying to buy out foreigners to their national teams. Luka's decision just shows his strong character and embraces his reputation. It's a shame Slovenia decided to add Randolph in the squad, cause yet again that's the freaking easy way out to solve your roster problem for one year. There are no logical flaws here. Just two lists: national players vs. naturalised players. This is not a nationality obsessed view. This is not a view at all, dude. It's your nationality, you will always be turkish, lithuanians will always be lithuanians, etc. Yes, you can change the citizenship, but you are who you are, just like you said in the first part of your paragraph. Shit-trend, shit-common-practice, call it what you want, it still has the same feeling. Obviously you do spread this trend, cause you exploit it, don't you? All the countries that exploit this rule, spreads the trend. There's no point in discussing this matter further, because we obviously disagree, and you use a lot of whataboutism, trying to make excuses and coming up with examples like "what about Slovenia with Randolph, what about Spain with Mirotič, what about countless other nations". Why don't you go with examples "what about Serbia, what about Lithuania". Great teams with great winning history, with no naturalised players. Why don't you go that route?

I guess only people from Serbia can understand this.

As a matter of fact, I really can not understand of how can people support such rule. Let's take into account top young prospects that have a dream to represent their country in the highest level national tournaments. Then all of a sudden federation just decides to buy a foreign player to fill up their roster's missing spots. What can you think as a young player? You work really hard day after day, and suddenly the federation decides not to give a shit about you and buy Wilbekin/Larkin/Randolph/McCalebb/Whatever. It's a shame, it's just a very short term decision.


It will be a great pleasure putting you out of Olympics.

Sure, just don't forget to recruit some Anthony Randolph/Jordan Morgan/any other big that has nothing to do with Slovenia. I hope Dončič plays this summer, so you guys will be out of excuses for missing 2nd major tournament in a row.

Killer Bob
02-06-2020, 12:12 PM
Why did you stuck so much with that list? It is not some kind of a definite list, it's just for example reasons. Can't you really understand that the first list is of talented players that are actually national players, and the second list of players are talented naturalised players that have nothing to do with the country that they "proudly" represent. So obviously Larkin is in the talented players list, but definitely not in the same list with national players it National Teams Championships.



A player is defined by what he is - exactly. Larkin is american, no connections to Turkey at all. Dončič is slovenian, the key thing in his case is that yes exactly he did not accept Spain's offer, he did not choose the easy way out, just like nations choose while trying to buy out foreigners to their national teams. Luka's decision just shows his strong character and embraces his reputation. It's a shame Slovenia decided to add Randolph in the squad, cause yet again that's the freaking easy way out to solve your roster problem for one year. There are no logical flaws here. Just two lists: national players vs. naturalised players. This is not a nationality obsessed view. This is not a view at all, dude. It's your nationality, you will always be turkish, lithuanians will always be lithuanians, etc. Yes, you can change the citizenship, but you are who you are, just like you said in the first part of your paragraph. Shit-trend, shit-common-practice, call it what you want, it still has the same feeling. Obviously you do spread this trend, cause you exploit it, don't you? All the countries that exploit this rule, spreads the trend. There's no point in discussing this matter further, because we obviously disagree, and you use a lot of whataboutism, trying to make excuses and coming up with examples like "what about Slovenia with Randolph, what about Spain with Mirotič, what about countless other nations". Why don't you go with examples "what about Serbia, what about Lithuania". Great teams with great winning history, with no naturalised players. Why don't you go that route?

I guess only people from Serbia can understand this.

As a matter of fact, I really can not understand of how can people support such rule. Let's take into account top young prospects that have a dream to represent their country in the highest level national tournaments. Then all of a sudden federation just decides to buy a foreign player to fill up their roster's missing spots. What can you think as a young player? You work really hard day after day, and suddenly the federation decides not to give a shit about you and buy Wilbekin/Larkin/Randolph/McCalebb/Whatever. It's a shame, it's just a very short term decision.



Sure, just don't forget to recruit some Anthony Randolph/Jordan Morgan/any other big that has nothing to do with Slovenia. I hope Dončič plays this summer, so you guys will be out of excuses for missing 2nd major tournament in a row.

And we are still current Eurobasket champions. ;) Nobody will say much, if Slovenia misses qualifications, but I wonder what will happen in Lithuania, if you don’t qualify? I always liked Lithuania, was a big fan of Sabonis, Saras...but I am a bit disappointed with your production of new players lately. Not much to cheer about, maybe you should bring some American guard? :D

Straight forward
02-06-2020, 12:22 PM
And we are still current Eurobasket champions. ;) Nobody will say much, if Slovenia misses qualifications, but I wonder what will happen in Lithuania, if you don’t qualify? I always liked Lithuania, was a big fan of Sabonis, Saras...but I am a bit disappointed with your production of new players lately. Not much to cheer about, maybe you should bring some American guard? :D

No worries. Our potential talent pool of 20's compared to 10's might be more than fine. Unless you ask Lithuanian Doncic, that's not going to happen anywhere soon.

Killer Bob
02-06-2020, 12:44 PM
No worries. Our potential talent pool of 20's compared to 10's might be more than fine. Unless you ask Lithuanian Doncic, that's not going to happen anywhere soon.

Great for you. Kids in Slovenia, unfortunately for basketball, are very good in many other sports, which in combination with population of only 2 mio people means, that we just don’t have pool big enough. https://www.greatestsportingnation.com/per-capita-cup-2019
So when opportunity came for Randolph, it was an easy choice. About Serbia, they wanted Luka, even though he never lived in Serbia, his mother is Slovenian, and his father was born in Slovenia (and lived in Slovenia) to Slovenian mother. That would have been ok?

Mindozas
02-06-2020, 01:05 PM
And we are still current Eurobasket champions. ;) Nobody will say much, if Slovenia misses qualifications, but I wonder what will happen in Lithuania, if you don’t qualify? I always liked Lithuania, was a big fan of Sabonis, Saras...but I am a bit disappointed with your production of new players lately. Not much to cheer about, maybe you should bring some American guard? :D

Like Larkinas or Antanas Randolfas, already sounds Lithuanian :) I hope it won't happen ever tho. I'd better be left out of qualifying to Olympics for the first time in our NT history and it would be big blow for me, then qualify with naturalized player. I just couldn't get over myself to cheer the same for such NT. Majority of people feels the same. I could go deeper like saying that this passion for the game and this big national identity roots probably comes from Soviet period when basketball was the only legal gun to fight against Soviets occupation and beating CSKA (army club) was the only way we could kick Soviet army asses. Basketball played big role in that independence fight. We had Žalgiris back then, basically a national team, which also was based solely on Lith players, even tho we had chances to bring guys from abroad, offers to add guys like Tikhonenko, who was great player, but nobody wanted foreigners, even tho we were under the same Soviet regime. Zalgiris was like our national identity in that tough tough time, sport was basically the only way we could express it. That's why Zalgiris vs CSKA battles were so legendary - empty streets, not a chance to get ticket, it was much more than just a game. Then we got back independence and NT was revived again - it took that role from Zalgiris as LT identity flag bearer, especially in first years. It was huge coincidence that in 1992 Olympics the most important game for bronze was played against Soviets. I was a little kid back then, but it meant so much for the nation, that I can remember the spirit around that game like it was yesterday. Btw, there is great documentary of that period called "The Other Dream Team". Nowadays of course lot of changed, the world, the views, all this globalization thing, but LT NT is still more than just a team here, smth that can be called our and stay untouched. Still like an identity of our small nation, a thing we can be proud of, the way we can express ourselves, a thing that unite us - all the Liths around the world. Maybe some other nations sees it different, maybe basketball means less, I'm not blaming them for that if they doesn't feel wrong by adding some American and still cheer the same way for NTs, but adding naturalized player in LT NT would ruin a lot of that feeling and things I've wrote about. At times achievements is not the most important thing ;)

Killer Bob
02-06-2020, 01:20 PM
I believe Lithuanian and Slovenian position is totally different. Slovenia is very small country and basketball just another sport. Pool of players really small. Lithuania is small country too, but basketball is the Sport. Pool of players enormous, for that kind of country. No real need to bring foreign players.

Katastroika
02-06-2020, 01:36 PM
Great for you. Kids in Slovenia, unfortunately for basketball, are very good in many other sports, which in combination with population of only 2 mio people means, that we just don’t have pool big enough. https://www.greatestsportingnation.com/per-capita-cup-2019
So when opportunity came for Randolph, it was an easy choice. About Serbia, they wanted Luka, even though he never lived in Serbia, his mother is Slovenian, and his father was born in Slovenia (and lived in Slovenia) to Slovenian mother. That would have been ok?

Poor Serbia. At least he loves Zvezda. Which is pretty equally fine to me :)

Killer Bob
02-06-2020, 02:39 PM
Poor Serbia. At least he loves Zvezda. Which is pretty equally fine to me :)

This Zvezda love is a bit strange, knowing that he hate everything about his father.

mojo13
02-06-2020, 04:55 PM
And we are still current Eurobasket champions. ;) Nobody will say much, if Slovenia misses qualifications, but I wonder what will happen in Lithuania, if you don’t qualify? I always liked Lithuania, was a big fan of Sabonis, Saras...but I am a bit disappointed with your production of new players lately. Not much to cheer about, maybe you should bring some American guard? :D

Lithuania has chosen to go after a Canadian PF/SF instead! :)

I understand Ignas Brazdeikis was born in Lithuania so it is a little different - I am not here to debate anything here (lets not get into it please), I'm just curious if anyone knows if he is considered a naturalized player per the definition of the rules. He does not have Lithuanian citizenship currently (though he did as a baby), he played for Canada in FIBA post age 17, and will be getting his Lithuanian citizenship/passport after age 16. That seems to count as a naturalized player by the definition of the rules unless there are special circumstance for "restoring" citizenship one once had.

I didn't think too much of him to start the season, but he is now playing very well in the G-League, he might actually become a regular NBA player. This is the first I am seeing that.

Katastroika
02-06-2020, 05:00 PM
This Zvezda love is a bit strange, knowing that he hate everything about his father.

I really don't care about that, it's sympathic to me that he supports my team, not more or less. I absolutely don't consider him Serbian or something. And most importantly I am no 60 year old woman to judge whom he hates or loves in his family.

Mindozas
02-06-2020, 05:03 PM
Lithuania has chosen to go after a Canadian PF/SF instead! :)

I understand Ignas Brazdeikis was born in Lithuania so it is a little different - I am not here to debate anything here (lets not get into it please), I'm just curious if anyone knows if he is considered a naturalized player per the definition of the rules. He does not have Lithuanian citizenship currently (though he did as a baby), he played for Canada in FIBA post age 17, and will be getting his Lithuanian citizenship/passport after age 16. That seems to count as a naturalized player by the definition of the rules unless there are special circumstance for "restoring" citizenship one once had.

I remember one case when Vasil Evtimov played for France in 2001 Eurobasket, then as Bulgarian born to Bulgarian parents he changed basketball nationality and played for Bulgaria in 2009 Eurobasket. In Bulgarian NT next to Evtimov played naturalized American Earl Rowland. So if the rules stayed the same - Brazdeikis also shouldn't be counted as naturalized player, but not sure tho

mojo13
02-06-2020, 05:54 PM
I remember one case when Vasil Evtimov played for France in 2001 Eurobasket, then as Bulgarian born to Bulgarian parents he changed basketball nationality and played for Bulgaria in 2009 Eurobasket. In Bulgarian NT next to Evtimov played naturalized American Earl Rowland. So if the rules stayed the same - Brazdeikis also shouldn't be counted as naturalized player, but not sure tho

The naturalization rules were updated and tightened a few years ago so who knows what it is now. I suppose it should not matter unless Lithuania plans to naturalize another player.

Straight forward
02-06-2020, 06:21 PM
Even if Brazdeikis case would be naturalization, let's not compare naturalization of random American who suddenly should be Turkish, Croatian ect, and naturalization of pure Lithuanian by blood (he's not only born and lived in Kaunas for three/four years, but both of his parents are pure Lithuanians) to his homeland. It's black and white really

Levenspiel
02-06-2020, 08:49 PM
I remember one case when Vasil Evtimov played for France in 2001 Eurobasket, then as Bulgarian born to Bulgarian parents he changed basketball nationality and played for Bulgaria in 2009 Eurobasket. In Bulgarian NT next to Evtimov played naturalized American Earl Rowland. So if the rules stayed the same - Brazdeikis also shouldn't be counted as naturalized player, but not sure tho
This is a good example. "Evtimov is the only player to ever compete at EuroBasket for two countries". His brother played for France, too.
the way I understand it, FIBA is a bit more flexible than usual towards countries with limited top level talent. Ermal Kuqo was also allowed to play for his native country, Albania.

madmax
02-06-2020, 09:14 PM
nationality is bit more complicated and nuanced matter in Europe, especially in small countries from southern and south eastern region, where the line between being for example a turk or albanian is quite blurred very often. Same goes for the whole bunch of balkan countries, who are intertwined and connected to each other historically and culturally. Not so much for the people from the other continents, who have no cultural or emotional ties to the europeans...so I'd say having a player from your neighbouring country represent your NT is not exactly the same as having an american or some african fella proudly wearing your country's colors

Mindozas
02-06-2020, 09:18 PM
The naturalization rules were updated and tightened a few years ago so who knows what it is now. I suppose it should not matter unless Lithuania plans to naturalize another player.

Yeah, there were changes, but I'm not sure if it had any impact on such cases, hard to say. Anyway, it really doesn't matter for Lithuania for now. First of all, we ain't planning any naturalization, as I wrote in previous page, our bball community is against it, from majority of fans till players, coaches, federation. Even what comes to foreign head-coach. Unless some other Brazdeikis case would appear. Then it would be interesting to know the rules. Other than that, it's really complicated process to get LT citizenship, even for Brazdeikis it's still not for granted that he will get one. He probably will as this case is so clear that I see no reason why he shouldn't to. Maybe president advisors on this matter can say that he is not a person who did a lot for Lithuania, which is one of criteria to get Lith passport, but it can be beaten by potential future benefit, overall new president is more open minded and has final word on it, so I hope there won't be any obstacles


This is a good example. "Evtimov is the only player to ever compete at EuroBasket for two countries". His brother played for France, too.
the way I understand it, FIBA is a bit more flexible than usual towards countries with limited top level talent. Ermal Kuqo was also allowed to play for his native country, Albania.

True, Kuqo also. And while writing this I recalled a case of Anton Gavel, even reverse case, from Slovakia to Germany back in 2015. But I don't remember if he was counted as naturalized or not. These are probably the only 3 cases in bball what comes to senior teams

Levenspiel
02-06-2020, 09:30 PM
nationality is bit more complicated and nuanced matter in Europe, especially in small countries from southern and south eastern region, where the line between being for example a turk or albanian is quite blurred very often. Same goes for the whole bunch of balkan countries, who are intertwined and connected to each other historically and culturally. Not so much for the people from the other continents, who have no cultural or emotional ties to the europeans...so I'd say having a player from your neighbouring country represent your NT is not exactly the same as having an american or some african fella proudly wearing your country's colors
Interesting point. Imagine Turkoglu, Okur, Mahmutoglu, Erden etc playing for Bosnia in another world, as their grandparents were of Bosnian decent. They should be eligible by FIBA rules.


True, Kuqo also. And while writing this I recalled a case of Anton Gavel, even reverse case, from Slovakia to Germany back in 2015. But I don't remember if he was counted as naturalized or not. These are probably the only 3 cases in bball what comes to senior teams
Oh Gavel, too, yes. I've never understood the logic in that one but it's there.

Toruko
02-06-2020, 09:53 PM
Are you guys somehow addicted to naturalizations?

mojo13
02-06-2020, 11:05 PM
Are you guys somehow addicted to naturalizations?

Its the Free Agency of FIBA.

Everyone loves the July 1st madness in the NBA and the EuroLeague off-season signing speculation - this is the closest we've got to it in FIBA.

Straight forward
02-07-2020, 12:13 PM
Jordan Morgan to play for Slovenia. Random American guy who happened to play one season in Ljubljana.

Killer Bob
02-07-2020, 03:06 PM
Jordan Morgan to play for Slovenia. Random American guy who happened to play one season in Ljubljana.

I would much rather have Randolph, who never played in Ljubljana. I guess Luka and 4 random guys could be enough. ;)

Mindozas
02-07-2020, 03:20 PM
I would much rather have Randolph, who never played in Ljubljana. I guess Luka and 4 random guys could be enough. ;)

So is this a final decision for Slovenia for OQT? No more chasing Randolph or any other foreign player?

Killer Bob
02-07-2020, 04:38 PM
So is this a final decision for Slovenia for OQT? No more chasing Randolph or any other foreign player?

It looks like it. They have brought just some random guy. Imho a mistake, you should surround Luka with shooters. Randolph was a perfect match.

Chuck Diesel
02-07-2020, 10:29 PM
Purity. Serbia has a black player who played for years in youth categories because of his mother from South America and noone gives a shit if you are black, white, yellow, Christian, Muslim. We are against naturilzation of foreign players. And you are a troll.

I'm not a troll. I've watched every major FIBA tournament since 2005 in Serbia/Montenegro and each summer I've seen naturalized players making an impact. It's the FIBA landscape I've grown up with. Every year I've also read nonstop bitching from fans of countries who refuse to naturalize players for whatever reason. If your country is on some high ground about not wanting American players, that's great. Shut up about other teams doing it. Trying to cheapen the accomplishments of Slovenia or Russia is beyond weak.

Katastroika
02-07-2020, 10:53 PM
I'm not a troll. I've watched every major FIBA tournament since 2005 in Serbia/Montenegro and each summer I've seen naturalized players making an impact. It's the FIBA landscape I've grown up with. Every year I've also read nonstop bitching from fans of countries who refuse to naturalize players for whatever reason. If your country is on some high ground about not wanting American players, that's great. Shut up about other teams doing it. Trying to cheapen the accomplishments of Slovenia or Russia is beyond weak.

I won't shut up because of your asking for it. Who do you think you are? :)

By the way I didn't even mention Slovenia or Russia or any other country. Maybe you are mixing someone up or you are simply an imbecile. Or both.

Chuck Diesel
02-08-2020, 12:33 AM
I won't shut up because of your asking for it. Who do you think you are? :)

By the way I didn't even mention Slovenia or Russia or any other country. Maybe you are mixing someone up or you are simply an imbecile. Or both.


Right. I'm an imbecile. You got me down, a troll and an imbecile. I was telling the collective complainers to shut up, but you can obviously feel free to join them. Why stop with players? Mike Malone has no business being on Serbia's staff the summer. No naturalized staff!

Katastroika
02-08-2020, 01:13 AM
Right. I'm an imbecile. You got me down, a troll and an imbecile. I was telling the collective complainers to shut up, but you can obviously feel free to join them. Why stop with players? Mike Malone has no business being on Serbia's staff the summer. No naturalized staff!

Mixing assistant coaches and players makes my impression about trolling and being and imbecile even more accurate. What an epic spin. Oh sorry, it should have been ironic, right? Sorry, I always need some time to get westerner's fun.

Aaah, it hurts, no naturalized staff. :-(

Katastroika
02-08-2020, 01:34 AM
It's hypocritical to be in favor of an American coach & aghast at an American player. I'll try my hand at Serbian fun & throw a heated coin at an opposing player while I hurl ethnic insults at him & mutter nonsense about some war in the 14th century.

What's a heated coin? The second part was really funny! You would make a good Serb.


Sorry for offtopic.

Chuck Diesel
02-08-2020, 01:42 AM
What's a heated coin? The second part was really funny! You would make a good Serb.


Sorry for offtopic.

Opposing players visiting club teams have told stories about fans heating coins with their lighters & hurling at them on the bench or when they're at the foul line. And thank you, I am an honorary Serb at my friend's Sava every January 20th. I've heard it all.

Katastroika
02-08-2020, 01:47 AM
Opposing players visiting club teams have told stories about fans heating coins with their lighters & hurling at them on the bench free throw line. And thank you, I am an honorary Serb at my friend's Sava every January 20th. I've heard it all.

I watched with my own eyes at Red Star games during the last decades players being hit by coins (unfortunately not heated), flares (very heated), fire distinguishers, plastic bags filled with urine, chairs but never with heated coins. I feel a little desperate right now because I missed maybe the greatest one.

The really bad thing is that games of national team are usually visited from much more civilized people than those from Red Star (at least I don't feel that comfortable there) - I hope that there will be some Balkan derby at the preparation so that Mike Malone can witness pure Serbian hospitality (heated coins included). The full package.

Believe it or not, I just googled "how to heat coins".

Obina
02-10-2020, 11:31 AM
DeShane Davis Karkin :D :D :D

ZaliaBalta
02-10-2020, 01:03 PM
DeShane Davis Karkin :D :D :D

That's fake news, sadly, but damn, Karkin just sounds too funny :D

GottfriedFuchs
03-17-2020, 07:28 AM
as far as the world is concerned about the pandemic of corona virus, i am not sure the olympic tournament is going to be completed this year or not !but for sure the spirit of the game will survive.

Victorious
03-17-2020, 11:24 PM
So it is quite likely that the NBA is cancelled for the rest of the season. This leaves us with two options. The Olympics will continue or they will also be cancelled. Either way, let's say the Olympics will continue, then all players will be eligible for the Olympic qualifying tournament. Since the EL and the NBA will probably not continue. If the Olympics are cancelled, then Olympic qualifying tournaments can continue at a later date this summer. Whereby once again, all players will be eligible. The qualified teams can join the remaining qualified teams during next summer (probably). Unless the Olympics will be skipped.

ZaliaBalta
03-18-2020, 12:10 PM
If the Olympic Qualifying Tournamets are cancelled and the Olympic Games are organized as planned, then there are two ways to decide the teams:

1st way is to invite the teams into the Olympic Games by considering their FIBA rankings. Olympic teams list in this way would be:

USA
Spain
Australia
Argentina
Serbia
France
Greece
Lithuania
Czech Republic
Iran
Nigeria
Japan

2nd way is to decide the teams through the World Cup 2019 Final Standings. Olympic teams list in this way would only have one difference which is Poland instead of Greece.

USA
Spain
Australia
Argentina
Serbia
France
Poland
Lithuania
Czech Republic
Iran
Nigeria
Japan

Another rumor about the possible teams in the Olympics is to blindly invite the tournaments hosts. These would be Lithuania, Serbia, Croatia and Canada. I think this is the least likely way to happen.

Victorious
03-18-2020, 05:39 PM
If the Olympic Qualifying Tournamets are cancelled and the Olympic Games are organized as planned, then there are two ways to decide the teams:


The difference between the OQT and the Olympics is one month. If need be, one can also postpone the OQT for a week or two. There is little reason to cancel the OQT while the Olympics are not cancelled. It is more likely that both will be cancelled.

Katastroika
03-18-2020, 06:05 PM
If the Olympic Qualifying Tournamets are cancelled and the Olympic Games are organized as planned, then there are two ways to decide the teams:

1st way is to invite the teams into the Olympic Games by considering their FIBA rankings. Olympic teams list in this way would be:

USA
Spain
Australia
Argentina
Serbia
France
Greece
Lithuania
Czech Republic
Iran
Nigeria
Japan

2nd way is to decide the teams through the World Cup 2019 Final Standings. Olympic teams list in this way would only have one difference which is Poland instead of Greece.

USA
Spain
Australia
Argentina
Serbia
France
Poland
Lithuania
Czech Republic
Iran
Nigeria
Japan

Another rumor about the possible teams in the Olympics is to blindly invite the tournaments hosts. These would be Lithuania, Serbia, Croatia and Canada. I think this is the least likely way to happen.

Slobodan Sarenac, journalist who is 30 years around Serbian national team, told today that there won't be qualifying tournaments and that FIBA is exactly evaluating your two mentioned scenarios - whether the last 4 places will be given via World Cup standings or via FIBA rankings.

Victorious
03-18-2020, 08:11 PM
Slobodan Sarenac, journalist who is 30 years around Serbian national team, told today that there won't be qualifying tournaments and that FIBA is exactly evaluating your two mentioned scenarios - whether the last 4 places will be given via World Cup standings or via FIBA rankings.

So they are in between Greece or Poland.

Toruko
03-23-2020, 06:43 PM
As expected also the Olympic Games will be postponed to 2021 and Canada demanded that also the qualifiers needs to be postponed.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/olympic-games/1042822/canada-basketball-in-discussions-with-fiba-about-likely-postponement-of-oqt-in-victoria/
https://www.eurohoops.net/en/olympic-games/1042855/2020-tokyo-olympics-will-be-postponed/

This makes the situation more interesting. Having this tournament one year later is definitely positive for the turkish NT if we want to catch something positive about this Cov 19 shit.

ZaliaBalta
03-24-2020, 02:12 PM
Does this mean, that Eurobasket 2021 will also be moved to some later date or what? Fiba might even decide to play Eurobasket 2021 in 21'22 winter. That would be a shit move. Eurobasket without any European top stars. But that is just my speculation

Straight forward
03-24-2020, 02:24 PM
Does this mean, that Eurobasket 2021 will also be moved to some later date or what? Fiba might even decide to play Eurobasket 2021 in 21'22 winter. That would be a shit move. Eurobasket without any European top stars. But that is just my speculation

2022 summer obviously.

mojo13
03-24-2020, 03:45 PM
As expected also the Olympic Games will be postponed to 2021 and Canada demanded that also the qualifiers needs to be postponed.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/olympic-games/1042822/canada-basketball-in-discussions-with-fiba-about-likely-postponement-of-oqt-in-victoria/
https://www.eurohoops.net/en/olympic-games/1042855/2020-tokyo-olympics-will-be-postponed/

This makes the situation more interesting. Having this tournament one year later is definitely positive for the turkish NT if we want to catch something positive about this Cov 19 shit.


Should be a positive for Canada as well. Factually there will be less free agents for Canada next summer - only Trey Lyles, Khem Birch and maybe Kelly Olynyk coming off contract. (Olynyk has a player option this summer). And theoretically it gives many of our very young players one more year to mature (especially important for what could be key players in SGA, Clarke, and Barrett). It hopefully allows Dwight Powell (Achilles) to get healthy as well as lesser players like Kevin Pangos (foot) and Nik Stuaskas (knee) - of course other injuries could pop-up next year. The absence of Thomspon, Powell and possibly Olynyk was worrying me for this summer.

Of course this could all be thrown out the window if the NBA moves its season to run from Dec-Aug.

Toruko
03-24-2020, 05:33 PM
Should be a positive for Canada as well. Factually there will be less free agents for Canada next summer - only Trey Lyles, Khem Birch and maybe Kelly Olynyk coming off contract. (Olynyk has a player option this summer). And theoretically it gives many of our very young players one more year to mature (especially important for what could be key players in SGA, Clarke, and Barrett). It hopefully allows Dwight Powell (Achilles) to get healthy as well as lesser players like Kevin Pangos (foot) and Nik Stuaskas (knee) - of course other injuries could pop-up next year. The absence of Thomspon, Powell and possibly Olynyk was worrying me for this summer.

Of course this could all be thrown out the window if the NBA moves its season to run from Dec-Aug.

Yeah if you have a young team, many injuries, question marks or promising young talents a more year is always helpful.

robert0326
03-26-2020, 12:44 AM
2022 summer obviously.

No problem if the continental championships will move a year after.. Because it is not qualification for Olympics or World Cup.. And FIBA will make adjustments also for Qualifiers for Continental Cups and World Cup.. maybe will make 3 to 4 games per window to cope up with the schedule before 2023 WC.. Especially for Asian teams that have already postponed their games due to COVID-19..

robert0326
03-26-2020, 12:48 AM
Should be a positive for Canada as well. Factually there will be less free agents for Canada next summer - only Trey Lyles, Khem Birch and maybe Kelly Olynyk coming off contract. (Olynyk has a player option this summer). And theoretically it gives many of our very young players one more year to mature (especially important for what could be key players in SGA, Clarke, and Barrett). It hopefully allows Dwight Powell (Achilles) to get healthy as well as lesser players like Kevin Pangos (foot) and Nik Stuaskas (knee) - of course other injuries could pop-up next year. The absence of Thomspon, Powell and possibly Olynyk was worrying me for this summer.

Of course this could all be thrown out the window if the NBA moves its season to run from Dec-Aug.

Or NBA will lessen their games next season.. they did that already during lockout seasons.. maybe a double round robin (58 games) only.. The 2011 season only 66 games played.. while 1999 season only 50 games played.. So there is a possibility.

Straight forward
03-31-2020, 02:46 PM
The abstract picture because of postpone would be this, IMO:

USA, if they ever to face any problems with theirs -+ A team, loses some power due to Lebron's, Leonard's FA and all extreme generation in Lebron, S.Curry, Durant, Harden, Russ becoming 1 year older. There's nothing similar, IMO, after this. Actually after such players as Davis, Lillard, there' no true superstars in USA, how odd it would sound. Imagine studs in their thirties wouldn't show up, and we have a ball game again as in 2019.

Croatia. IMO, should get some benefits. Bog still should be legit, Saric still developing player, Hezonja became somewhat relevant, Bender will benefit from one year development, even Luka Samanic could make a mark. Off course, Croatia may even not be there as Germany would throw them out, but I still believe Croatia should be stronger with all the pieces.

Argentina. I guess the answer is clear. The team won't be stronger in 1 year.

Australia. Goes down a little bit. Mills, Delly, Ingles, Baynes are not getting younger. There' no-one to step into Mill's shoes as of yet, IMO. No guy who can drop thirty when he's in the mood. Ben Simmon's would be more sad ferry tale of "Giannis in 2019 WC", IMO.

Serbia. Teodosic potentially on his full decline. Jokic, Bogdanovic, Micic on a growing path. Bjelica still peaking, IMO. Probably should be even better than in 2019 and to learn mistakes of WC.

France. On a huge growth. They have tons of youngsters, tons of quality, specially defensively and I true guards to go to for FIBA in Fournier, De Collo. I treat France as probably the biggest rival for USA. Serbia doesn't have defensive presence of France.

Spain. Goes down a little bit. Sorry, legend PAU, at 41-42 you won't be the guy. Brother also gets older. Lull is a shadow of himself, Rodriguez is getting old. Rubio and grandpas Gasols, that's pretty much the story. Not a good momentum for Spain, IMO, even if they snatched the title in 2019. Still top 5 team though.

Canada. They get the most of postpone. In one year some of their talents will ripe dramatically, just as they have been doing this season. Canada will have probably second best roster after USA, but they have zero clue what's FIBA and most guys will come out of NBA. France, Serbia are surely superior because they already have it. Knowledge, toughness, defensive team presence.

Lithuania. IMO, it's positive for it. 10's generation - Kalnietis, Maciulis, Jankunas, Seibutis- has been declining since 2017. We are sort of rebuilding since 2019, with Sabonis, Grigonis, Lekavicius snatching key roles. One year will ripe some potential addition as Jokubaitis, Brazdeikis, Kulboka, Sirvydis.

Greece. Sloukas, Calathes are not getting any younger. Giannis won't carry them alone. Lack of substantial younger talents, IMO, is felt by Greece.

I won't go deeper, because it's hard to see which other strong teams making OG. I think now Canada should have an edge over Greece.

Katastroika
04-01-2020, 05:48 PM
Dunno but France doesn't convince me at all. Even not with the upcoming generation. I think it will stay pretty much the same as it is at the World Stage. Same 6-7 teams behind USA and behind them 10 that can beat those 6-7 but there's a obvious quality gap.

mojo13
04-02-2020, 08:05 PM
The abstract picture because of postpone would be this, IMO:

USA, if they ever to face any problems with theirs -+ A team, loses some power due to Lebron's, Leonard's FA and all extreme generation in Lebron, S.Curry, Durant, Harden, Russ becoming 1 year older. There's nothing similar, IMO, after this. Actually after such players as Davis, Lillard, there' no true superstars in USA, how odd it would sound. Imagine studs in their thirties wouldn't show up, and we have a ball game again as in 2019.

Croatia. IMO, should get some benefits. Bog still should be legit, Saric still developing player, Hezonja became somewhat relevant, Bender will benefit from one year development, even Luka Samanic could make a mark. Off course, Croatia may even not be there as Germany would throw them out, but I still believe Croatia should be stronger with all the pieces.

Argentina. I guess the answer is clear. The team won't be stronger in 1 year.

Australia. Goes down a little bit. Mills, Delly, Ingles, Baynes are not getting younger. There' no-one to step into Mill's shoes as of yet, IMO. No guy who can drop thirty when he's in the mood. Ben Simmon's would be more sad ferry tale of "Giannis in 2019 WC", IMO.

Serbia. Teodosic potentially on his full decline. Jokic, Bogdanovic, Micic on a growing path. Bjelica still peaking, IMO. Probably should be even better than in 2019 and to learn mistakes of WC.

France. On a huge growth. They have tons of youngsters, tons of quality, specially defensively and I true guards to go to for FIBA in Fournier, De Collo. I treat France as probably the biggest rival for USA. Serbia doesn't have defensive presence of France.

Spain. Goes down a little bit. Sorry, legend PAU, at 41-42 you won't be the guy. Brother also gets older. Lull is a shadow of himself, Rodriguez is getting old. Rubio and grandpas Gasols, that's pretty much the story. Not a good momentum for Spain, IMO, even if they snatched the title in 2019. Still top 5 team though.

Canada. They get the most of postpone. In one year some of their talents will ripe dramatically, just as they have been doing this season. Canada will have probably second best roster after USA, but they have zero clue what's FIBA and most guys will come out of NBA. France, Serbia are surely superior because they already have it. Knowledge, toughness, defensive team presence.

Lithuania. IMO, it's positive for it. 10's generation - Kalnietis, Maciulis, Jankunas, Seibutis- has been declining since 2017. We are sort of rebuilding since 2019, with Sabonis, Grigonis, Lekavicius snatching key roles. One year will ripe some potential addition as Jokubaitis, Brazdeikis, Kulboka, Sirvydis.

Greece. Sloukas, Calathes are not getting any younger. Giannis won't carry them alone. Lack of substantial younger talents, IMO, is felt by Greece.

I won't go deeper, because it's hard to see which other strong teams making OG. I think now Canada should have an edge over Greece.


Cant argue with much of this (save one which I will get to) - but I'd like to hear your thoughts go a little deeper. What about Germany, Italy, Czech, Turkey, Russia and some of the others that are not too far behind?


I will softly argue about Argentina- besides Scola who I admit is the heart and soul of that team the rest of their guys are all in their prime or even on the young side. It seems everyone else that played meaningful minutes on that World Cup Silver medal team was between 25 and 30. Scola is 39 and has aged well (for the FIBA level at least). He may not have too much of a fall off for next year - although it is tougher for older guys to stay in shape during a layoff like this.
Anyways - their entire team save Scola probably improves when we fast forward 1 year - so I don't think it is clear that they fall back. Granted I clearly don't think they are anything close to the #2 team in the world and that WC run was fairly magical and lucky.

Toruko
04-02-2020, 10:07 PM
Germany: stable team that has a very interesting big rotation. Very solid shooting bigs who are also able to share the ball very well. Too many options with Theiss, Barthel, Voigtmann, Kleber, Moritz Wagner and maybe Hartenstein. They have two big weaknesses. First one is Dennis Schröder as your primarily decision maker. He developed his shooting very well and grew but just as scoring option. The main decision maker is CP and Dennis used the advantage very well. He himself is one of the worst decision maker in the sports of bb. Without a proper play maker beside him they wont win anything.

They have Len Schoormann from the Frankfurt Skyliners but he wont be at that level in one year and he is not the guy they need so Maodo Lo will be the second option. Unfortunately he is nobody who can carry a team from the bench. Below average court vision, average shooter at most and bad decision making. He wont be able to create for others.

The position of the shooting guards is the weakest in the german team. Akpinar had a solid year with BJK in Turkey but mostly used as defender beside Schröder who doesnt defend at all.

Shortly said: Germany has a solid (not great) big rotation with bad scorers/decision makers. They have a realistic chance but not a tournament team and the coach Henrik Rödl doesnt have the respect of his team. He especially cant control the ego of Schröder and there is no other options.

Italy: overall view is a very potent scoring team unfortunately without a good play maker as well. Very bad on the defensive end.

The team is carried by 4 guys right now: Datome, Melli, Belinelli and Gallinari. DiVincenzo will most probably also be a part of the team. The most important two positions is there weakness. Mannion will be able to fill one gap in play making but i dont know his situation right now. I just know that he played for USA in U16. Its possible that DiVincenzo or Mannion has to stay out.

They can beat anyone on a good day but because of the weakness in the center position and the defensive weaknesses there is a very small chance to beat Serbia in Belgrade. They wont make it.

Czech: a growing bb nation which plays a very solid team bb. Every member knows what to do on the court. Roles are very clear. Another advantage is the majority of the team plays together in a team (Nymburg). Strong in play making and the Center position, athletic team player who has experience in Italy, Spain and Turkey but skill wise they are clearly behind teams like Canada, Turkey or Greece premised these teams have a good prep time. Too fragile and inexperienced for such a tournament. They wont make it.

Russia: Too old, no prospects, too many injured player who are out of bb. Shortly said no chance at all and they will fall behind very soon. Not worth to consider.

Turkey: Similar problems like Italy. Still a very young team which is carried of 4 NBA-Level player. The biggest weaknesses are the center and (normally) the play making position but if we consider that Larkin will participate team Turkey has the best player and play maker in Europe who in addition suits the team very well. A very very offensive strong team with great all around scorer and shooter. The offensive potential with Larkin in this team is beyond the roof but a really bad team on the defensive end. The coach cant prepare the team well and they are not used o play together. They play mostly ISO game over very potent scorers like Korkmaz, Osman and Ilyasova. With a good floor general like Larkin young Eurocup level guys will be enhanced for sure (better).

Turkey has 2-3 gems and 2-3 more solid prospects which will be a factor in future but right now the lack of solid Bigs is the limiting factor. The trend is positive but there are too many question marks as well. Will be a problem for any team but this time it wont be enough but a final Turkey vs Canada would be great to watch.

Serbian_Layup
04-03-2020, 02:08 PM
Turkey: Similar problems like Italy. Still a very young team which is carried of 4 NBA-Level player. The biggest weaknesses are the center and (normally) the play making position but if we consider that Larkin will participate team Turkey has the best player and play maker in Europe who in addition suits the team very well. A very very offensive strong team with great all around scorer and shooter. The offensive potential with Larkin in this team is beyond the roof but a really bad team on the defensive end. The coach cant prepare the team well and they are not used o play together. They play mostly ISO game over very potent scorers like Korkmaz, Osman and Ilyasova. With a good floor general like Larkin young Eurocup level guys will be enhanced for sure (better).

Larkin is just nominally a point guard, and if we are talking about pure point guard skills he is not even the best point guard in his own team. Larkin is a scorer. By far the best one in Europe. Turkey will be much better with him, but I'm curious to see how is he going to handle playmaking duties as a primary point guard. He won't have the luxury of having Micić alongside him, which has helped him tremendously to focus on the best part of his game - scoring buckets. Micić is a primary point guard and floor general for Efes, and that has brought the best out of Larkin because he was relieved of point guard duties. I don't think Turkey has a capable point guard to consistently do what Micić does for Larkin. Nevertheless, Larkin-Korkmaz-Osman is a nice rotation.

Serbian_Layup
04-03-2020, 02:15 PM
Dunno but France doesn't convince me at all. Even not with the upcoming generation. I think it will stay pretty much the same as it is at the World Stage. Same 6-7 teams behind USA and behind them 10 that can beat those 6-7 but there's a obvious quality gap.

I agree. There is something missing with France, and I'm not sure what that is. Their identity is not clear and I think more often than not they easily lose focus. Talent is deep, but there is always something predictable about their offense. They haven't been themselves for the past few years.

Toruko
04-03-2020, 04:07 PM
Larkin is just nominally a point guard, and if we are talking about pure point guard skills he is not even the best point guard in his own team. Larkin is a scorer. By far the best one in Europe. Turkey will be much better with him, but I'm curious to see how is he going to handle playmaking duties as a primary point guard. He won't have the luxury of having Micić alongside him, which has helped him tremendously to focus on the best part of his game - scoring buckets. Micić is a primary point guard and floor general for Efes, and that has brought the best out of Larkin because he was relieved of point guard duties. I don't think Turkey has a capable point guard to consistently do what Micić does for Larkin. Nevertheless, Larkin-Korkmaz-Osman is a nice rotation.

He doesnt need to be a classic floor general. His ability to penetrate and create room for others will help the team tremendously. In the point of a secondary ball handler there are guys who can give you solid 10-15 minutes not like Micic but still. Also Osman and Korkmaz can put the ball on the floor and share the ball well from the point guard position. Larkin will handle the duties of a point guard very well.

Toruko
04-03-2020, 04:14 PM
I agree. There is something missing with France, and I'm not sure what that is. Their identity is not clear and I think more often than not they easily lose focus. Talent is deep, but there is always something predictable about their offense. They haven't been themselves for the past few years.

Its again the lack of a play maker who can let the whole team play. A very good defensive team especially with Gobert but Gobert is still the limiting factor on the offensive end. A lack of a play maker with court vision forces their scorers to create for themselves which looks a bit stuck and it wont change much with Maledon either. Hayes could be the better option, well have to wait his progress but Wembaya will change the team entirely. This guy is offensively a different dimension compared to Gobert and if they play just 1 tournaments together i cant imagine the possibilities.

Straight forward
04-04-2020, 07:55 PM
France not only have upcoming 21yo PG Frank Ntilikina, but also 2 more beast NBA prospects Maledon and Killian Hayes. Both are strong first rounders. And Matthieu Gauzin should be drafted as well. So France will have huge spectrum of point guards which I think used to be their weak link. Sure, with France you never know, but, IMO, they have the most prospect potential in Europe right now.

Andrey-Ksa
04-05-2020, 03:41 PM
Agree
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Katastroika
04-06-2020, 05:10 PM
France not only have upcoming 21yo PG Frank Ntilikina, but also 2 more beast NBA prospects Maledon and Killian Hayes. Both are strong first rounders. And Matthieu Gauzin should be drafted as well. So France will have huge spectrum of point guards which I think used to be their weak link. Sure, with France you never know, but, IMO, they have the most prospect potential in Europe right now.

That's true. But where's the extra quality? Ntilikina doesn't convince me, Hayes has to be seen, Maledon is everything but a new generationwise talent. They will have big depth but so will others, too. There is not a player visible from them that can be categorized as a potential game changer. France lacks identity as my fellow countrymen wrote. I think it describes them the best. Or in other words, France 2013-2014 was stronger than they are right now and will be next year.

Straight forward
04-06-2020, 06:08 PM
That's true. But where's the extra quality? Ntilikina doesn't convince me, Hayes has to be seen, Maledon is everything but a new generationwise talent. They will have big depth but so will others, too. There is not a player visible from them that can be categorized as a potential game changer. France lacks identity as my fellow countrymen wrote. I think it describes them the best. Or in other words, France 2013-2014 was stronger than they are right now and will be next year.

Fournier is their face now. He's coming into his prime as 27yo, drops 19pts in NBA, he was really pissed for not snatching medals in WC. They are very good defensive team and they have TOP BIG GUARD to make things happen. What will happen with all this upcoming talent, we'll see.

Serbian_Layup
04-06-2020, 07:13 PM
Diaw's retirement is also underrated when talking about French team cohesion. He was their point forward, and he made a lot of things happen for their offense. That is the hole they are still not able to fill in.

Katastroika
04-07-2020, 08:57 AM
Diaw's retirement is also underrated when talking about French team cohesion. He was their point forward, and he made a lot of things happen for their offense. That is the hole they are still not able to fill in.

This, beside irreplacable Parker. And of course the intense downfall of Nicolas Batum. I was in Madrid at the semfinal 2014 between us and them in Palacio Deportes and I remember how elegant Batum looked, he played alone against us all game and held them in the dogfight until the very end. Too much quality lost on the way. They have a very good roster of well educated players but no extra quality. I agree with Straight Forward that Fournier is in his prime and their go-to-guy but he is really not a caliber of a player whom I would give the keys of a team. France reminds me at Dinamo Sassari with their game style - they can beat Real but also lose against Slask Wroclaw.

Just for comparison - who is the better player for you all (even different positions) - Bojan Bogdanovic or Evan Fournier? For me Bojan. But would you give Bojan the keys of a team? Me not. Maybe a little too easy comparison because France is much stronger than Croatia but I think y'all get my way of thinking.

Serbian_Layup
04-07-2020, 06:36 PM
This, beside irreplacable Parker. And of course the intense downfall of Nicolas Batum. I was in Madrid at the semfinal 2014 between us and them in Palacio Deportes and I remember how elegant Batum looked, he played alone against us all game and held them in the dogfight until the very end. Too much quality lost on the way. They have a very good roster of well educated players but no extra quality. I agree with Straight Forward that Fournier is in his prime and their go-to-guy but he is really not a caliber of a player whom I would give the keys of a team. France reminds me at Dinamo Sassari with their game style - they can beat Real but also lose against Slask Wroclaw.

Just for comparison - who is the better player for you all (even different positions) - Bojan Bogdanovic or Evan Fournier? For me Bojan. But would you give Bojan the keys of a team? Me not. Maybe a little too easy comparison because France is much stronger than Croatia but I think y'all get my way of thinking.

Batum has been on decline for several years, which is a bit unexpected, because he is still in his prime years. He got big contract and has failed to live up to expectations ever since. I like him very much as a player, a good team player with undeniable talent, good defender, he isn’t shy to step up in big moments. I think he is still dangerous player, and still very valuable to France.

Bojan or Fournier….not easy to choose because they are both similar players, scorers at first. Well, Bojan is the scorer at first, second and last… really efficient, great shooter. Fournier is also a very good shooter and has better handle than Bojan, can do a little bit more offensively (better passer), but not as efficient as Bojan. It depends on what you're looking for – efficient shooter or a scorer that can do a liitle bit more offensively. They are both excellent, but I'm leaning towards Bojan a bit.

Personally, I'd choose Bogdan over both of them in the blink of an eye ;)

Toruko
04-07-2020, 09:47 PM
Batum a good defender? He lacks effort, motivation positioning... but its also not easy to stay focussed with the Hornets :D He has surely the possibilities but he lost his focus and is one of the worst nba contracted player.

Fournier or Bogdanovic? In international games Fournier because he is the way versatile scorer and Bogdanovic in the NBA. Bogdanovic has in fact nothing to survive in the nba as small forward but he is insanely strong and works in the nba far better than in Europe.

Straight forward
04-08-2020, 06:13 AM
Fournier better in both sides. NBA and FIBA. Fournier is not only more versatile, has way more handles and creativity, but he also facilitates more and is better defender for his position, mainly 2 I would say. His efficiency is higher. IMO, underrated player. He must be the best European guard after Doncic now.

Starting 5 of best Euros now would be such (bench):

Doncic (Schroder, Dragic)
Fournier (Bogdan Bogdanovic)
Giannis (Bojan Bogdanovic)
Sabonis (Porzingis, Galinari)
Jokic (Gobert)

Killer Bob
04-08-2020, 08:37 AM
Fournier better in both sides. NBA and FIBA. Fournier is not only more versatile, has way more handles and creativity, but he also facilitates more and is better defender for his position, mainly 2 I would say. His efficiency is higher. IMO, underrated player. He must be the best European guard after Doncic now.

Starting 5 of best Euros now would be such (bench):

Doncic (Schroder, Dragic)
Fournier (Bogdan Bogdanovic)
Giannis (Bojan Bogdanovic)
Sabonis (Porzingis, Galinari)
Jokic (Gobert)

It really depends on which KP we’re looking at. KP in February and March was a monster in offense and in D. He avg. 3 blocks after all star break, which is more than Gobert. Knowing that he was 18 months out, I believe he needed time to get in playing shape. I would for sure put him in front of Sabonis.

Straight forward
04-08-2020, 09:09 AM
It really depends on which KP we’re looking at. KP in February and March was a monster in offense and in D. He avg. 3 blocks after all star break, which is more than Gobert. Knowing that he was 18 months out, I believe he needed time to get in playing shape. I would for sure put him in front of Sabonis.

That's a good point that I had in my mind, but overall I think Sabonis had a better season and has been playing for probably stronger team as the key piece. In a long run, Porzingis is better scorer and defender (and player overall), but Sabonis is probably better rebounder and facilitator. While Sabonis is playing at All Star level, Porzingis has an upside to be a bordeline superstar in the league if not actual superstar. But as this season goes, I put Sabonis to the starting lineup.

Killer Bob
04-08-2020, 09:56 AM
That's a good point that I had in my mind, but overall I think Sabonis had a better season and has been playing for probably stronger team as the key piece. In a long run, Porzingis is better scorer and defender (and player overall), but Sabonis is probably better rebounder and facilitator. While Sabonis is playing at All Star level, Porzingis has an upside to be a bordeline superstar in the league if not actual superstar. But as this season goes, I put Sabonis to the starting lineup.

I don't understand how Indiana with more or less equal results is better than Dallas, who is playing in the West? Especially knowing how many games Luka and Kp missed. Before those injuries Mavs were 3rd in the West.
KP started very slow as expected, but was in great form lately. I doubt very much that Sabonis would get starting place instead of Kp, specially if Jokic is C. Someone has to play D too. And you want to have as many shooters as possible, for different reasons, around Giannis and Luka.

Straight forward
04-08-2020, 10:02 AM
I don't understand how Indiana with more or less equal results is better than Dallas, who is playing in the West? Especially knowing how many games Luka and Kp missed. Before those injuries Mavs were 3rd in the West.
KP started very slow as expected, but was in great form lately. I doubt very much that Sabonis would get starting place instead of Kp, specially if Jokic is C. Someone has to play D too.

Mavs to me has been sort of 7/8th team in the West while Pacers strong 5th in the east, scratching 4th spot. But, yeah, realistically Mavs may even be better, but I wouldn't exclude Pacers with healthy Brogdon, coming into his own Dipo (if he's fast enough this season) and Sabonis + a bit underrated M. Turner with a solid bench. IMO, more or less equal teams, I'm not very well aware of Mavs bench. The distance between west and east really got smaller lately.

Serbian_Layup
04-09-2020, 06:07 PM
@Toruko
@Straight forward

I think it's becoming an excessive habbit trying to label players as NBA/FIBA type of players. More and more people are trying to project Giannis' case (great in NBA/bad in FIBA) on other players where there is really no need for that and without any objective evidence.

Both Bogdanović and Fournier are excellent in NBA/FIBA level of competition (Bogdanović was lit every single FIBA competition, it’s another story why he can’t succeed with Croatia, at least thus far), it's just a matter of personal taste whom would you rather have. Furthermore, Bogdanović has a great back to the basket game. He is easily exploiting mismatches, especially in FIBA game due to his size and strength. Fournier has a better handle, but it's not like Bojan can't put the ball on the floor. He has a good enough handle to drive on closeouts and finish through contact. So it looks to me that he has plenty assets to be just as good in any kind of basketball competition, offensively his skills are tailor made for SF.

My point is not to prove that Bogdanovic is better player than Fourner in FIBA/NBA, but only to question this excessive division of NBA good/FIBA bad type of players. There is no reason to mold players into Giannis' case just because of the Giannis' case. And the very same Giannis would be the same or very close to that NBA player if Greece were able to surround him with more complementary fits. The main difference between NBA/FIBA game is that NBA teams are working to perfection to surround their best players with the most functional fits. When it comes to national teams this is not possible, you work with what you have. Surround Giannis with bad shooters and he wouldn't be the same player even in the NBA. That goes for basically every talented player, they need to be put in the best position to be able to succeed. I remember Jokić when Malone was using him at PF for some stretches during his first 2 and half seasons. He looked like average player at best. I only took Bogdanović as an example, not because I’m particularly interested in him (he may not even be in my upper class of favorite players).

Straight forward
04-10-2020, 09:58 AM
My point is not to prove that Bogdanovic is better player than Fourner in FIBA/NBA, but only to question this excessive division of NBA good/FIBA bad type of players. There is no reason to mold players into Giannis' case just because of the Giannis' case. And the very same Giannis would be the same or very close to that NBA player if Greece were able to surround him with more complementary fits. The main difference between NBA/FIBA game is that NBA teams are working to perfection to surround their best players with the most functional fits. When it comes to national teams this is not possible, you work with what you have. Surround Giannis with bad shooters and he wouldn't be the same player even in the NBA. That goes for basically every talented player, they need to be put in the best position to be able to succeed. I remember Jokić when Malone was using him at PF for some stretches during his first 2 and half seasons. He looked like average player at best. I only took Bogdanović as an example, not because I’m particularly interested in him (he may not even be in my upper class of favorite players).

Disagree. The main difference is sharply different physicality and the size of the court and three second defensive rule. Even some of American sports journalists now sees that, even if some of them are extremely cocky. People really missing out the key things if they think Giannis in FIBA would be the same as in NBA if you would surround him with shooters. He would collect more assists, couple of points, true, but his offensive game would still have the same limitations. Just as Vucevic, Valanciunas, Jokic, probably even Doncic (who utilizes his size a lot against direct opponent in the NBA) wouldn't be. Even NBA stars or superstars felt it and said it. Kobe talked about, Kemba talked about after WC. Smaller court, ability to collapse on the help defence (which comes much more easier in smaller court), tougher, rigid game makes whole thing different. Players who lives with only craft and quickness in the first deals with it much better, like Mills, Dragic, ect. They do not bang inside that much and utilizes they perfect perimeter skills. But the key difference is about the role. Those guys have all the freedom in the NT and all the touches so their numbers grow, but they would probably grow even more dramatically with the same role in the NBA. But even those skilled players feel the difference.

"I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now. I think the NBA needs to be more physical." Kobe

“It’s a different game than the NBA; it’s a lot more physical…" K. Walker

“I just got out of the cage, the cell. I am free now.” Giannis

“Here [in the NBA] its easier to score compared to Europe, of course. In Europe, the court is smaller and here there is the three seconds rule. I think it’s easier to score here.” L. Doncic

Shawshank
04-11-2020, 12:15 PM
Fournier better in both sides. NBA and FIBA. Fournier is not only more versatile, has way more handles and creativity, but he also facilitates more and is better defender for his position, mainly 2 I would say. His efficiency is higher. IMO, underrated player. He must be the best European guard after Doncic now.

Starting 5 of best Euros now would be such (bench):

Doncic (Schroder, Dragic)
Fournier (Bogdan Bogdanovic)
Giannis (Bojan Bogdanovic)
Sabonis (Porzingis, Galinari)
Jokic (Gobert)

not a single player from world champions team ? i take M.Gasol even today in 2020 any day over both Jokic and Gobert in fibas one playoofs game.Same goes to 2019 version of Rubio over Schroder for sure.They are just smarter and tougher players mentally , coaches can trust in playoofs.

what in 2019 Gasol and Rubio shown they were best tournaments center and best tournaments PG (P.Mills is scorer not PG) was main reason why Spain won and most fans didnt see that comming before tournament.Spain had one of the weakest roster in last 15 years for their super high standarts.

I don't believe it's possible to win fiba world championship and not having a single top10 Europe player on your roster...

Straight forward
04-12-2020, 02:41 PM
not a single player from world champions team ? i take M.Gasol even today in 2020 any day over both Jokic and Gobert in fibas one playoofs game.Same goes to 2019 version of Rubio over Schroder for sure.They are just smarter and tougher players mentally , coaches can trust in playoofs.

what in 2019 Gasol and Rubio shown they were best tournaments center and best tournaments PG (P.Mills is scorer not PG) was main reason why Spain won and most fans didnt see that comming before tournament.Spain had one of the weakest roster in last 15 years for their super high standarts.

I don't believe it's possible to win fiba world championship and not having a single top10 Europe player on your roster...

Yeah, I had Rubio in my mind. I took Schroder because he sort of had slightly more impressive NBA season. I picked best Euros in the planet, not the team suited best for FIBA. Gasol had couple big games in the knock out stage in WC, but he simply can't crack the list I posted, his role in the NBA becoming more and more meaningless. And with all respect, IMO, Spain overachieved, because teams like Serbia and some other choked big time.

Shawshank
04-13-2020, 07:06 PM
Yeah, I had Rubio in my mind. I took Schroder because he sort of had slightly more impressive NBA season. I picked best Euros in the planet, not the team suited best for FIBA. Gasol had couple big games in the knock out stage in WC, but he simply can't crack the list I posted, his role in the NBA becoming more and more meaningless. And with all respect, IMO, Spain overachieved, because teams like Serbia and some other choked big time.

again i dont believe its possible to become world champions and not having top 10 player in your roster.There comes time in crunch time when best players have to step up and win the game in most crusial very close games.When you dont have such players you simply arent winning 4 playoofs games against best teams and winning gold.

Shroder wasnt even close to what Rubio was doing in world championships not even close.One smart maestro with the ball in his peak the other typical nba combo guard that lost 2 close games for germany in crunch time in group against average level teams.

Right now i take peaking Rubio over Schroder and 34 old Dragic.Especially if we include also his pesky pressuring defence.

Straight forward
04-13-2020, 07:13 PM
What do you mean top 10 players? Top 10 payers playing in Europe, you mean? Well if so, USA won WC not once without any Euros or guys who were playing in Europe. And if so, who would you take from Europe to make your team win? I agree with your point about Rubio. However, my posted team consist of the best Euros in the world today in the eyes of some NBA owner, IMO, and those who had best last season. Schroder and Rubio is debatable even in this perspective, off course.

Shawshank
04-18-2020, 12:51 PM
i mean best non usa players top 10.You cant win entire tournament gold medal not having at that point top 10 non usa player in your roster.I cant remember a gold medal winner team that won without such calibre player.So for me not including not a single world champions spanish player in best europe player list right now makes no sense and thats just wrongly made list.

So how the hell they won gold with bunch of old veterans and "ale"no top players? I didnt see better pg than Rubio and i didnt see better center when it matter most over M.Gasol in entire tournament. Gobert was outplayed even by our center Valanciunas badly .

Usa top 40-50 players its diffrent planet i dont count them .

Fearless player M.Grigonis said about Rubio this week in podcast when some non player tried to say that Rubio is not made to play in smaller europes arena.He said when you see Rubio in front of you...you dont wanna dribble the ball anymore againts him,you want to pass the ball.That says alot about his defence from our best guard right now.

In nba playooffs Jazz was putting Rubio even on Harden,because Ricky is very smart and super fast and Harden couldnt go to free throw line 15 times a game against him as he loves to do and earn easy baskets against athletic, but not very smart defenders. Rockets won,but Hardens numbers was not on his standarts scoring wise.

Straight forward
04-18-2020, 02:09 PM
So should formulate much more simple. You think all Euro team should have at least 1 Spanish NT 2019 player. Because absolute majority of players I mentioned are top 10 Euro players :)

You made a good point on Rubio. Overall he's probably a better player, specially for FIBA. He's much better defender and facilitator. However in the NBA Schroder utilizes his offensive talent better and scoring in NBA is much more valuable as you simply can't lock real offensive players there. Too much space and ISO zones for them. So it's tough call, but notice people give Schroder even Mr. underrated awards, being one of the keys of top 5 west teams, while Rubio balling for scrub of a team Suns:

Every year, ESPN and several other sports news outlets release their rankings for the top 100 players leading into the season. And every year, Schroder is either unlisted or ranked in the 90s (peaked at #80 on Sports Illustrated’s 2018-2019 rankings). Meanwhile, Schroder has averaged 17.8 points and 5.2 assists in his past 4 seasons; 2 of which were as a backup PG behind Russell Westbrook (‘18-’19) and Chris Paul (‘19-’20).

This season, Schroder served as one of the catalysts for OKC’s surprising season. He managed to average 19.0 points and 4.1 assists off the bench and also hit several game-winning shots for the Thunder. We’ll have to wait and see if Schroder gets any consideration for Sixth Man of the Year, or if he gets any higher on any 2020-2021 Top 100 NBA Player Ranking lists, but Schroder deserves recognition for his play this season.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/03/the-best-alternative-nba-awards-for-the-2019-20-season/

Katastroika
04-18-2020, 03:34 PM
As far as I follow you are talking about two different things.

Straight Forward about individual quality and Shawshank about player's impact on their respective national teams. If so, I go with Schroder in Straight Forwards point and Rubio in Shawshank's.

Rubio scored. 16.1pts for the World Champion which is great, was 8th best assistant (AS/TO ratio of just 1.7 by the way, Schroeder 2.8 for example - but of course Ricky played knockout games so this is pretty meaningless. Rubio is much more a floor general in FIBA than in NBA while for me undoubtably Schroeder is the more talented basketall player, there are even no stats necessary to point that out. In the first part of the tournament Schroeder was the best scorer of all point guards in the tournament. Which is no little thing - but yeah, they fucked it up all together and he is Germany's biggest name so a huge part of this result disaster has to be shouldered on his back.

Besides all, if both were Serbs, I would pick Schroeder without any doubt in front of Ricky for FIBA competitions. Just try to look it like that. IF (big if) he would swallow his ego. That's maybe the key point - Ricky is playing absolutely in order of his team winning. And has always in FIBA. Very rational, very small ego.

For Gasol, I maybe wouldn't pick him over Jokic in his age but definitely over Gobert who is one of the most overrated players ever in the NBA. Just remember his play-off episodes, he never showed anything substantial in the National Team, I recognize his defensive awards he is receiving continously but if so I can't understand why even Favors was put on the floor in front of him in crucial playoffs minutes. Or in other words, he is the symbol of a guy who has never and will never carry a team. I realised the last years that people have very different opinions on him (also in Serbia among fans) - either you love him or you call him an overgrown trunk but to be honest I rather go for the second thing. I saw him two times live in the arena and can remember how impressive he looked with this 3m long arms but that's the most impressive.

By the way: for me Top 5 of Euros would be: Doncic (Schroeder) - Bogdanovic (Fournier) - Giannis (Bogdanovic Boj.) - Sabonis (Porzingis) - Jokic (Valanciunas or Nurkic, not sure about that one, maybe slightly Jonas).

Straight forward
04-18-2020, 03:52 PM
I agree with all what you wrote, except that I would mix starting line-up a bit differently and I surely wouldn't have Jokic- Valanciunas 5 section. Disaster perimeter D in the times when a center has to be able to switch everything as a stud and to guard p'n'r as a stud. To me it's either Jokic - Gobert or Jokic - M. Gasol, or I would use Sabonis (or even Porzingis) as a center. I mean two chubby slow footed fast food junkies in Joker and JV is way too much :)

Straight forward
04-18-2020, 04:00 PM
Ultimately, when everyone's in 100% shape, my starting 5 ALL EURO would be such for contemporary BB:

Porzingis
Giannis
Boj Bogdanovic
Fournier
Doncic

Some teams would pound such team inside a little bit, but so much length, agility, athleticism and shooting (except Giannis). I would run up tempo game and would see what happens.

Serbian_Layup
04-19-2020, 12:32 PM
I agree with all what you wrote, except that I would mix starting line-up a bit differently and I surely wouldn't have Jokic- Valanciunas 5 section. Disaster perimeter D in the times when a center has to be able to switch everything as a stud and to guard p'n'r as a stud. To me it's either Jokic - Gobert or Jokic - M. Gasol, or I would use Sabonis (or even Porzingis) as a center. I mean two chubby slow footed fast food junkies in Joker and JV is way too much :)

You are expecting too much from big men. Perimeter defense doesn’t depend on big men’s ability to switch everything. You are looking for something that is not possible and doesn’t exist at the top level of basketball. There is no big man in this era of basketball able to contain top level guards in isolation or out of p&r when they have to cover a lot of ground. Guards are just too quick and too crafty for any big men in isolation plays (they will just run by big men or shoot easily over them off the dribble). Perimeter defense depends for the most part on perimeter players’ (guards, forwards) ability to fight through screens and slow down the smoothness of p&r game. If you are efficient at playing a spread or high p&r there isn’t a slightest chance for any big man to defend it successfully because they have to cover a lot of ground against top level guards, which is basically impossible. The greater distance they have to cover out of p&r or ISO sets the less chance they have to defend it successfully. The key is to slow down the p&r game and reduce the ground that big men have to defend. And that is the job of perimeter players. There are centers with excellent lateral quickness (Adebayo) or rim protection (Gobert), but it’s going to work only when perimeter defense do their job – hold the first line of defense, if it’s easily broken no big man is going to save the day for any team.

Serbian_Layup
04-19-2020, 12:43 PM
The best Euro team:

Jokić (Vučević or Sabonis)
Giannis (Porzingis)
Bojan (Gallinari)
Bogdan (Fournier)
Dončić (Schroder, Rubio)

Dončić/Jokić or Giannis two men game would be hilarious, surround them with shooters like Bogdan and Bojan (or Fournier) and it gets even funnier. On the top of it all, just spread the floor and let Giannis do his thing.

I forgot Capela, he would be unstoppable as a rim runner with Dončić.

Ooops, Gobert is definitely there as Jokić's backup. So much talent, hard to make completely objective choice.

mojo13
05-02-2020, 04:24 PM
It looks like the NBA is steadily moving towards the idea of its season running from late December through early August. Likely permanently. You guys may have an idea if the euro leagues might follow this?

Obviously this changes everything for the Qualfiers (Canada is probably screwed unless the regular season is done by late June and they can at least get a few NBA guys from non playoff teams). And this could impact the Olympics drastically as the playoffs would still be going on.

How you guys think this changes the power structure of the Qualfiers? For example does Czech now become a favorite out fo that Qualfier? Have bad does this hurt Serbia, Lithuania etc?

Toruko
05-02-2020, 05:43 PM
It looks like the NBA is steadily moving towards the idea of its season running from late December through early August. Likely permanently. You guys may have an idea if the euro leagues might follow this?

Obviously this changes everything for the Qualfiers (Canada is probably screwed unless the regular season is done by late June and they can at least get a few NBA guys from non playoff teams). And this could impact the Olympics drastically as the playoffs would still be going on.

How you guys think this changes the power structure of the Qualfiers? For example does Czech now become a favorite out fo that Qualfier? Have bad does this hurt Serbia, Lithuania etc?

I cant imagine a Olympic basketball without the best players. The Olympic games start one week after the qualifiers. The NBA ending August would mean the best player mustnt play in the Olympic tournament but if the nba wants to screw everything nothing can be said surely

Toruko
05-02-2020, 05:50 PM
Even if it happens they will shorten regular season. So instead of playing 82 games it will be around 60

mojo13
05-02-2020, 07:33 PM
Even if it happens they will shorten regular season. So instead of playing 82 games it will be around 60


No. Not a shortened season. This would be permanent and the NBA has been looking to do this for awhile.
The move away from competing with American football and the move into the non too competing summertime market. This would cripple the Olympics (maybe go to u23 like soccer) for basketball but could find support with FIBA as they have been trying to emphasize the WCs for awhile. This would do it and they could control the schedule unlike the Olympics.

Toruko
05-02-2020, 09:51 PM
No. Not a shortened season. This would be permanent and the NBA has been looking to do this for awhile.
The move away from competing with American football and the move into the non too competing summertime market. This would cripple the Olympics (maybe go to u23 like soccer) for basketball but could find support with FIBA as they have been trying to emphasize the WCs for awhile. This would do it and they could control the schedule unlike the Olympics.

Yeah in case that the playoff team members have no chance to participate in the qualifiers its really bad news for Turkey and Canada because both nations carrying pillars are the nba players.

The only mentionable names from the nba for the Czechs and Greece are Antetokounmpo and Satoransky and Satoransky doesnt play for a playoff team.

Canadas situation you know better than but guys like Murray wont be able to participate so bad news for you.

In Turkey key a 24 year old Furkan Korkmaz of the Sixers is most likely out. Ersan Ilyasova has a team option with the Bucks. If he stays there he will be out as well. Cedi Osman of the CAVS will participate. Shane Larkin if he stays in Turkey will participate too and if he decides to return to the NBA everything depends on the team again.

The last interesting guy is Omer Yurtseven who is considered to be drafted this year.

Considering the worst case Turkey wont stand a chance. Especially without enough prep time but there are 2-3 very interesting guys who i would like to see on the court for giving them some experience.

In such a case i see Greece, Czechs and Canada in the same level and the daily performance will decide.

Shawshank
05-03-2020, 02:10 PM
nba Playoofs takes around 50 days to play out.If nba planning finishing early august,most likely playoofs starts around July 1st,nba regular seasons ends around 25th of June.

About qualifying tournaments for Olympics no chance seeing nba players in such case.But for Olympics and WC ,Eurobaskets its possible.

Our 2 nba centers Valanciunas and Sabonis is allowed to be with NT only for 5 weeks by nba regulations .So 3 weeks training+2 weeks tournament was formula before.

Eurobasket and world champs usually is held in late august or early September,so this nba changes dont effect our players too much its still should fit in "5 weeks rule".

Unless their teams dramatically start not to lose in first playoofs round ,but go deep into playoofs like confe finals or nba finals.

Lithuanian nba players came to help NT even in qualifying window games when dates allowed them in 2018 summer,so even with less holiday im positive seeing Domantas and Jonas with Nt jersey.

Right now around may 1st most nba players used to start holiday and had like 3 months until NT coaches was asking them to come to camp around 1st of August.

If nba makes such changes and most nba players start holiday around only july 1st most likely we gonna see dramatically more 'NO' to NT by nba players then was before using older/current nba format.

if talking about qualification to olympics next summer,i believe most Lithuanian fans agrees to play in our home arena without Valanciunas,Sabonis, but Slovenia plays without Doncic :)

decklego
05-13-2020, 02:54 AM
everyone is on hiatus, events, games, everything is uncertain and the culprit something so tiny

Killer Bob
05-13-2020, 10:37 AM
if talking about qualification to olympics next summer,i believe most Lithuanian fans agrees to play in our home arena without Valanciunas,Sabonis, but Slovenia plays without Doncic :)

Yes, in that case Slovenia doesn’t need Itoudis too.

Toruko
05-13-2020, 10:44 AM
Yes, in that case Slovenia doesn’t need Itoudis too.

NBA wont fuck up the schedule that much. They cant do that. I speculate or suppose that the current season wont be finished and the next season will start in the expected time.

Straight forward
05-13-2020, 11:02 AM
NBA wont fuck up the schedule that much. They cant do that. I speculate or suppose that the current season wont be finished and the next season will start in the expected time.

The truth is that expectations to see all NBA payers in the NTs from now on is much lower than it used to be. Schedule may interference, but also other considerations like health risk and so on, team's pressure (knowing how bad virus situation in states). Those NT which based on NBA talent will suffer the most. Even for Lithuania it would be huge blow because of Sabonis, ever growing freshly 24yo All Star.

Toruko
05-13-2020, 11:05 AM
The truth is that expectations to see all NBA payers in the NTs from now on is much lower than it used to be. Schedule may interference, but also other considerations like health risk and so on, team's pressure (knowing how bad virus situation in states). Those NT which based on NBA talent will suffer the most. Even for Lithuania it would be huge blow because of Sabonis, ever growing freshly 24yo All Star.

Dont worry. Lithuanians and Turks always come and till next year summer it will be over anyway.

Killer Bob
05-13-2020, 11:08 AM
NBA wont fuck up the schedule that much. They cant do that. I speculate or suppose that the current season wont be finished and the next season will start in the expected time.

I believe they might. Nba is much nearer to European football than to European basketball considering money. They will do whatever it takes.

Katastroika
05-13-2020, 11:14 AM
Really an interesting issue. Today's informations from Wojnarowski show possibility for continuation even it's speculation from all fronts. Not speaking about Serbia but generally it would be a huge loss to see Olympics without NBA stars.

Shawshank
05-13-2020, 03:01 PM
if new nba season starts around Christmas 2020 and nba right now is surely playing 82 games to get some money back... there basically no chance for nba players to play in Olympic qualification tournament even if your team is dead last in standings.

But to play in main Olympics in August chances is way bigger and for most nba players possible thing if they will agree come and help their NT without seriuos holiday break after long nba season.

The best case for NTs would be that this season 2019/2020 would be canceled.Then its possible to start new season as always in November.

If nba will find a way to resume it (and they will do anything to make it happend because of hundreds millions they are loosing with every month ) there no chance starting next season as normal in November in that case no nba players in qualifications tournaments,only possibility to have them for main Olympics

For nba ratings start new season around christmas is even better,less competions with other usa pro sports its means bigger money.But in such case they F*** up international basketball badly . And would leave nba players who want to play for NT with very limited rest/recovering time.

For Olympics i believe nba players will make sacrifices and mostly could choose still came and play in 2021 summer olympics ,but for Eurobaskets and WC less possible if nba dates wont return to normal dates.

Silent Killer
05-14-2020, 01:10 AM
other option for next season is, shortened the season.. like 66 games.. so that it will finish right on time before the OQT and olympics

Killer Bob
05-14-2020, 08:25 AM
other option for next season is, shortened the season.. like 66 games.. so that it will finish right on time before the OQT and olympics

Nba doesn’t care at all about international basketball. They will do everything to maximise their profit, especially after this disastrous year. They for sure won’t shortened the season. It’s highly unlikely we will see their superstars in Olympics.

decklego
05-21-2020, 12:22 AM
it seems for now all is in pause since nothing is clear yet.

mojo13
06-04-2020, 08:56 PM
A little more clarity coming out with the 20/21 NBA schedule. Nothing certain yet but it looks like the NBA is targeting a full 82 games season that starts December 1st. And that should take the regular season into June - but probably not through all of June. NBA Finals finishing in August sometime. Hopefully that frees up NBA players who miss the playoffs to play in the Olympic Qualifiers and maybe even guys who get knocked out in the first round. Could end up a little like the World Championships in Hockey.

You probably don't get all the players that missed the playoffs and will lose guys to a long season with nagging injuries and needed rest, but it is hopeful that more than a few will suit up.

Mindozas
06-05-2020, 05:26 AM
A little more clarity coming out with the 20/21 NBA schedule. Nothing certain yet but it looks like the NBA is targeting a full 82 games season that starts December 1st. And that should take the regular season into June - but probably not through all of June. NBA Finals finishing in August sometime. Hopefully that frees up NBA players who miss the playoffs to play in the Olympic Qualifiers and maybe even guys who get knocked out in the first round. Could end up a little like the World Championships in Hockey.

You probably don't get all the players that missed the playoffs and will lose guys to a long season with nagging injuries and needed rest, but it is hopeful that more than a few will suit up.

There are already ongoing talks between FIBA and NBA on this matter. FIBA is hopeful and feels kinda positive that NBA will decide to finish the season till Olympics. This way in OQT probably we'll have players from clubs which will finish season early

Shawshank
06-07-2020, 11:39 AM
If nba finals finishes in middle of October and right now nba want to start new season at december 1st? thats very unrelistic and player assocation leaders was suprised when they saw that date .Remember if nba regular season game 1 is on 1st of december,nba teams need atleast 3 weeks preparation.So nba 2020/2021 preasson starts after 3 weeks of nba finals? :)

Those nba dates are not fixed and will change depending on situation atleast thats how nba insiders are talking.I give more chance that Olympics will again postpone because of corona second strike than nba first game of new season played on 1st of december. First regular season game will be closer around christmas date my gues would be.

In hockey its alot easier to come from NHL playoofs and play for NT when 20 players are changing each other over and over again .In basketball is not that simple come from usa and play with NT without no preparation,no team chemistry even for the highest iq players.

So lets say Canada NT start qualification tournament with 8 players and will leave 4 open places in roster to later players from nba to join NT in middle of the tournament like in hockey world champ? :) In Hockey its easier leave couple empty places when you have 22 players roster.

Players nba team eliminated on june 23rd and you are flying to other side of the world, changing time zone and playing some semifinal qualification must win game on june 28th that would be funny :) But in such ridiculous times right now its possible it can happen.But in such case we can forget about good quality basketball when NT best players that teams depend alot from its not with team all preparation time.

It will be all about who will survive and adapt best to such ridiculous possible scenerios.

mojo13
06-08-2020, 10:24 PM
If nba finals finishes in middle of October and right now nba want to start new season at december 1st? thats very unrelistic and player assocation leaders was suprised when they saw that date .Remember if nba regular season game 1 is on 1st of december,nba teams need atleast 3 weeks preparation.So nba 2020/2021 preasson starts after 3 weeks of nba finals? :)

Those nba dates are not fixed and will change depending on situation atleast thats how nba insiders are talking.I give more chance that Olympics will again postpone because of corona second strike than nba first game of new season played on 1st of december. First regular season game will be closer around christmas date my gues would be.

In hockey its alot easier to come from NHL playoofs and play for NT when 20 players are changing each other over and over again .In basketball is not that simple come from usa and play with NT without no preparation,no team chemistry even for the highest iq players.

So lets say Canada NT start qualification tournament with 8 players and will leave 4 open places in roster to later players from nba to join NT in middle of the tournament like in hockey world champ? :) In Hockey its easier leave couple empty places when you have 22 players roster.

Players nba team eliminated on june 23rd and you are flying to other side of the world, changing time zone and playing some semifinal qualification must win game on june 28th that would be funny :) But in such ridiculous times right now its possible it can happen.But in such case we can forget about good quality basketball when NT best players that teams depend alot from its not with team all preparation time.

It will be all about who will survive and adapt best to such ridiculous possible scenerios.


Announcement from the NBA said they are targeting a December 1 start.
I assume a shortened off -season is acceptable considering they have just had three months off - 4 by the time this starts up again.

December 1st start could mean a early June end of the regular season. I'm not saying it is going to happen, but it ups the possibility of NBA players who miss the playoffs trying to play ( and having a couple weeks to practice together).

Casey55
07-09-2020, 05:17 PM
USA always sends their best players to Olympics, it would be a shame to not have the best ones cuz they are in Playoffs

Chuck Diesel
07-23-2020, 01:12 AM
If NBA players aren't able to make it, I still think the USA could compete for gold with a well coached team comprised of the best Americans playing overseas/out of work NBA vets/top G-league guys.

Katastroika
08-09-2020, 09:49 AM
NBA considers start in 2021 besides planning for December 2020. But according to WOJ they plan to pause for a month to give Olympic participants possibility to play at the tournament. Which would automatically mean that they won't be available for the Olympic qualifiers. Interesting stuff to come up. A lot of bubbles planned for NBA season 2021.

Toruko
08-09-2020, 01:01 PM
If it is true it means no Ilyasova and no Korkmaz for us. Ilyasova would be a question mark because its not sure if he gets his extention with the Bucks (I doubt it). Yurtseven depends on who is gonna draft him. We really should skip the qualifiers in terms of running unexperienced but talented guys + Cedi and Larkin.

Straight forward
08-09-2020, 01:13 PM
I like that. Best players would play in Oympics and well qualification at this point wouldn't promote any flukes. Most fundamentally sound and deepest teams would qualify for Olympic games. If you're lose 1 or 2 NBA players for qualification and you collapse, you ain't deserve to be in Olympics.

Katastroika
08-09-2020, 02:36 PM
If it is true it means no Ilyasova and no Korkmaz for us. Ilyasova would be a question mark because its not sure if he gets his extention with the Bucks (I doubt it). Yurtseven depends on who is gonna draft him. We really should skip the qualifiers in terms of running unexperienced but talented guys + Cedi and Larkin.

But Cedi will play NBA, too. He won't be available. I don't know if Larkin will play this tournament if you send him with Tuncer, Arna and Birsen. Seriously, do you believe in that? I highly doubt it. I think Turkey will try to collect the best available like everyone else.

Toruko
08-09-2020, 03:44 PM
But Cedi will play NBA, too. He won't be available. I don't know if Larkin will play this tournament if you send him with Tuncer, Arna and Birsen. Seriously, do you believe in that? I highly doubt it. I think Turkey will try to collect the best available like everyone else.

Cedi will play just regular season. Regular season isnt a problem. It should end mid June which should be very fine. And of course Larkin will play no matter what unless he is injured otherwise taking the turkish citizenship is pure stupidity and he wont play just with Arna Tuncer or Birsen. He will play with a whole new generation of talented player like Sengün, Bona and Hazer.

In fact its even better like this. The loss of Korkmaz is heavy but not that severe like Satoransky for Czech, Giannis for Greece, let alone all the losses of Canada. It wont be enough but it isnt important either. Its a very unique chance for the young guys.

Katastroika
08-09-2020, 04:15 PM
Cedi will play just regular season. Regular season isnt a problem. It should end mid June which should be very fine. And of course Larkin will play no matter what unless he is injured otherwise taking the turkish citizenship is pure stupidity and he wont play just with Arna Tuncer or Birsen. He will play with a whole new generation of talented player like Sengün, Bona and Hazer.

In fact its even better like this. The loss of Korkmaz is heavy but not that severe like Satoransky for Czech, Giannis for Greece, let alone all the losses of Canada. It wont be enough but it isnt important either. Its a very unique chance for the young guys.

You didn't get it obviously. The regular season will run over the whole summer until autumn. They pause just for Olympics. Not one NBA player will play qualifiers.

I really doubt your scenario. Would be suicidal for Turkey. But anyways, not my business.

Toruko
08-09-2020, 04:27 PM
You didn't get it obviously. The regular season will run over the whole summer until autumn. They pause just for Olympics. Not one NBA player will play qualifiers.

I really doubt your scenario. Would be suicidal for Turkey. But anyways, not my business.

If the regular season starts in December instead of October. How can it run till Autumn. If it starts in December it will end mid June instead of mid April.


I really doubt your scenario. Would be suicidal for Turkey. But anyways, not my business.

You cant do more than losing but i cant say I am sure because I dont trust Sarica a bit but in case you are right and no NBA player can participate even they dont play post season it doesnt matter anyway but you can be sure that I am observing every process about the turkish bb.

Katastroika
08-09-2020, 04:36 PM
If the regular season starts in December instead of October. How can it run till Autumn. If it starts in December it will end mid June instead of mid April.



You cant do more than losing but i cant say I am sure because I dont trust Sarica a bit but in case you are right and no NBA player can participate even they dont play post season it doesnt matter anyway but you can be sure that I am observing every process about the turkish bb.

Because it won't start in December but end of January 2021 as I mentioned. Like written initially...

Toruko
08-09-2020, 04:48 PM
Because it won't start in December but end of January 2021 as I mentioned. Like written initially...

Hmm yes i see. Well internet says there are many consideration but if the season starts in January 2021 many nba player dependent teams are screwed.

Katastroika
08-10-2020, 07:34 AM
The source is Wojnarowski. I think that even Adam Silver isn't closer to deciding than him ;)

Problems are the same for everyone, I agree of course. But for example Slovenia and Croatia will be hurt with this solution in a way that isn't even worth mentioning. Besides all it's the best solution in my opinion. Croatia is a decent team with it's NBA roster, but without them they will have a hard time in even being equal besides great homecourt in Split.

The second big problem that will occur are a) health insurance for top players, b) heavy pressure from their teams to skip if they are in play off positions.

Interesting stuff to come up for next season. At the end I think the best European teams will be able to make a roster of EL players that should or could survive the qualifiers. But it will be a tough ride. The tournament that interests me most is naturally the one in Belgrade and Italy definitely has grown chances now, especially if Galo continues in Europe next year. And this isn't the only example. Germany is a team that was surely not the favourite in Split for example but they have a very balanced, disciplined and quite deep roster with experienced EL players that can survive tournaments like this. Lithuania is the clear favourite in Kaunas with this solution and the only 100% sure pick if there won't be an epic breakdown.

The tournament in Canada will be extremely interesting. No MVP, no Satoransky, no Ilyasova, Korkmaz, Osman, no SGA, Murray, Joseph, Brooks, Olynyk and many more for Canada. Canada seems beatable out of nothing besides homecourt. This tournament is definetely the most interesting especially with this development. Totally unpredictable. I must admit that I also like Lithuanian colleague before mentioned, agree that you have to be able to have a balanced roster even without NBA players and if you don't have, you don't have to complain. It's the same for all.

Toruko
08-10-2020, 01:25 PM
The source is Wojnarowski. I think that even Adam Silver isn't closer to deciding than him ;)

Problems are the same for everyone, I agree of course. But for example Slovenia and Croatia will be hurt with this solution in a way that isn't even worth mentioning. Besides all it's the best solution in my opinion. Croatia is a decent team with it's NBA roster, but without them they will have a hard time in even being equal besides great homecourt in Split.

The second big problem that will occur are a) health insurance for top players, b) heavy pressure from their teams to skip if they are in play off positions.

Interesting stuff to come up for next season. At the end I think the best European teams will be able to make a roster of EL players that should or could survive the qualifiers. But it will be a tough ride. The tournament that interests me most is naturally the one in Belgrade and Italy definitely has grown chances now, especially if Galo continues in Europe next year. And this isn't the only example. Germany is a team that was surely not the favourite in Split for example but they have a very balanced, disciplined and quite deep roster with experienced EL players that can survive tournaments like this. Lithuania is the clear favourite in Kaunas with this solution and the only 100% sure pick if there won't be an epic breakdown.

The tournament in Canada will be extremely interesting. No MVP, no Satoransky, no Ilyasova, Korkmaz, Osman, no SGA, Murray, Joseph, Brooks, Olynyk and many more for Canada. Canada seems beatable out of nothing besides homecourt. This tournament is definetely the most interesting especially with this development. Totally unpredictable. I must admit that I also like Lithuanian colleague before mentioned, agree that you have to be able to have a balanced roster even without NBA players and if you don't have, you don't have to complain. It's the same for all.

I will believe this end January thing when its a finished thing. Complain or not you cant change a thing anyway but different countries will be affected in different ways. Old Greece will be affected the least because they have been playing with the same roster for 100 years. Czech are affected more because its the point guard who is the star of the team. Nevertheless its a team with chemistry. We must see about Turkey with Larkin and without the 4 NBA player. Sure thing is that there is no time for preparations and although there will be new guys who will have had a great season Turkey will be the team which is most affected after Canada.

On the other side there is no chance for Italy and Slovenia for example but as you said its about having guys with bigger roles in Eurolegue, Eurocup and BCL. It will be fun to watch anyway so no problem.

mojo13
08-18-2020, 03:50 PM
I like that. Best players would play in Oympics and well qualification at this point wouldn't promote any flukes. Most fundamentally sound and deepest teams would qualify for Olympic games. If you're lose 1 or 2 NBA players for qualification and you collapse, you ain't deserve to be in Olympics.


How about if a country loses 22 NBA players?

mojo13
08-18-2020, 04:10 PM
I will believe this end January thing when its a finished thing. Complain or not you cant change a thing anyway but different countries will be affected in different ways. Old Greece will be affected the least because they have been playing with the same roster for 100 years. Czech are affected more because its the point guard who is the star of the team. Nevertheless its a team with chemistry. We must see about Turkey with Larkin and without the 4 NBA player. Sure thing is that there is no time for preparations and although there will be new guys who will have had a great season Turkey will be the team which is most affected after Canada.

On the other side there is no chance for Italy and Slovenia for example but as you said its about having guys with bigger roles in Eurolegue, Eurocup and BCL. It will be fun to watch anyway so no problem.


Canada is in a very interesting predicament.But we realistically could make it out of the qualifier with the right pieces, a proper training camp and some actual chemistry formed.

Assuming no NBA players at all, I'd rate our top player pool as follows:


Tyler Ennis
Kevin Pangos
Nik Stauskas
Dylan Ennis
Phil Scrubb
Kassius Robertson
Oliver Hanlan
Kaza Keane
Aaron Best
Andy Rautins

Aaron Doornekamp
Dyshawn Pierre
Andrew Nicholson
Melvin Ejim
Kyle Wiltjer
Thomas Scrubb
Connor Morgan
MiKyle McIntosh
Owen Klassen

Bolded are guys on the 2019 World Cup team. A number of the others played in multiple the WC Qualifier windows.

This seems the top 18 non NBA player pool. Maybe missing a few guys. We have one center in the mix and he is not very good (Owen Klassen).

But there is a chance at chemistry here as the bulk of the World Cup team would be hypothetically available (8 of 12 players). If we keep those guys in place and swaped out Cory Joseph (NBA), Brady Heslip (retired), Khem Birch (NBA) and Andrew Nembhard (NCAA) for guys like Tyler Ennis, Nik Stauskas, Dyshawn Pierre, and Andrew Nicholson. That might not be that bad a team (still really weak at center) and capable of Qualifying.

Our best hope of a Qualifying team probably comes from the guys above. At least many of these guys have familiarity with each other from the WC and WC Qualifiers.

But if non-playoff NBA players become available? That really opens the door. Not that these guys would miss the playoffs next year, but as an example this year the following missed the playoffs - Tristan Thompson, Andrew Wiggins, Mychal Mulder, Brandon Clarke, Dillon Brooks, Cory Joseph, Nickeil Alexander Walker, RJ Barrett, Trey Lyles. If we could pull a few of those guys in - that would change our prospects dynamically.

The other problem? We wouldn't have Nick Nurse....

Straight forward
08-18-2020, 04:49 PM
Yeah, I think Canada now may have huge problems. Some of these NBA players will eventually end up in Europe, as Stauskas, but it will take some time till you have solid core there. So Canada might suffer the most if qualification will take place without NBA players. Turkey would collapse as well pretty much.

Toruko
08-18-2020, 05:11 PM
Canada is in a very interesting predicament.But we realistically could make it out of the qualifier with the right pieces, a proper training camp and some actual chemistry formed.

Assuming no NBA players at all, I'd rate our top player pool as follows:


Tyler Ennis
Kevin Pangos
Nik Stauskas
Dylan Ennis
Phil Scrubb
Kassius Robertson
Oliver Hanlan
Kaza Keane
Aaron Best
Andy Rautins

Aaron Doornekamp
Dyshawn Pierre
Andrew Nicholson
Melvin Ejim
Kyle Wiltjer
Thomas Scrubb
Connor Morgan
MiKyle McIntosh
Owen Klassen

Bolded are guys on the 2019 World Cup team. A number of the others played in multiple the WC Qualifier windows.

This seems the top 18 non NBA player pool. Maybe missing a few guys. We have one center in the mix and he is not very good (Owen Klassen).

But there is a chance at chemistry here as the bulk of the World Cup team would be hypothetically available (8 of 12 players). If we keep those guys in place and swaped out Cory Joseph (NBA), Brady Heslip (retired), Khem Birch (NBA) and Andrew Nembhard (NCAA) for guys like Tyler Ennis, Nik Stauskas, Dyshawn Pierre, and Andrew Nicholson. That might not be that bad a team (still really weak at center) and capable of Qualifying.

Our best hope of a Qualifying team probably comes from the guys above. At least many of these guys have familiarity with each other from the WC and WC Qualifiers.

But if non-playoff NBA players become available? That really opens the door. Not that these guys would miss the playoffs next year, but as an example this year the following missed the playoffs - Tristan Thompson, Andrew Wiggins, Mychal Mulder, Brandon Clarke, Dillon Brooks, Cory Joseph, Nickeil Alexander Walker, RJ Barrett, Trey Lyles. If we could pull a few of those guys in - that would change our prospects dynamically.

The other problem? We wouldn't have Nick Nurse....

All these developments in the last years changed my mind about the NBA. National teams have almost no access to NBA players... especially not when they are star player. There are guys who are expected to be drafted and I dont want them to be drafted at all anymore.

Shawshank
09-22-2020, 09:01 PM
Silver said Tuesday that the NBA had hoped as recently as a week ago that "the earliest we would start is Christmas of this year," but he then said that as more coronavirus-related information becomes available, he believes that the league will "be better off getting into January."

Qualification tournament starts 2021 June 22.

99,9% of nba players wont be able to take part in qualification unless some special things will happen with nba season under 82 games.Or some special player and his team arrangements that they will let him go earlier if their team would have no chance for playoofs.But i dont recall that ever happend before.

Nba maybe will try to finish playoofs before main Olympics starts, but they just dont care about qualification because usa are in main tournament.But even that will not be easy to do. Olympics starts in late July,if you start season is mid January and go by normal scheduale nba finals should be played in second part of July or even August.

madmax
09-22-2020, 09:39 PM
Silver said Tuesday that the NBA had hoped as recently as a week ago that "the earliest we would start is Christmas of this year," but he then said that as more coronavirus-related information becomes available, he believes that the league will "be better off getting into January."

Qualification tournament starts 2021 June 22.

99,9% of nba players wont be able to take part in qualification unless some special things will happen with nba season under 82 games.Or some special player and his team arrangements that they will let him go earlier if their team would have no chance for playoofs.But i dont recall that ever happend before.

Nba maybe will try to finish playoofs before main Olympics starts, but they just dont care about qualification because usa are in main tournament.But even that will not be easy to do. Olympics starts in late July,if you start season is mid January and go by normal scheduale nba finals should be played in second part of July or even August.

yup, it's pretty much obvious by now that qualifying tournament and Olympics will be played by 2nd rate and 3rd rate players...:eek: You can forget the quality NBA players participating in this thing with all of their massive overblown NBA contracts tying them up to their club teams. There is no way any NBA exec or owner will release their key player into some international event when NBA season is still taking place imo

Toruko
09-22-2020, 09:41 PM
Well its how it is. In the worst case there will be no NBA players at all. Some teams will be affected more than others but the team with the biggest player pool or least NBA players will have an advantage. Many things can happen till then.

I would cry if I was Canadian. So many extraordinarily talented guys but they never manage to get them together. Slovenia without Doncic... Lithuania without Sabonis and JV... Croatia without Bogdanovic, Zubac, Saric... Germany without Kleber and Schröder... Greece without Giannis... Turkey without Korkmaz, Osman, Ilyasova and probably without Yurtseven... Mentioning Canadians would take too long... Serbs will take a big damage but also the team that will face the least damage because of countless Euroleague players.

In our case I am eager to see some young guns. I think we can build a competitive team with Larkin + some names that will lead some teams this season. Sometimes its good to sacrifice a tournament to add new names. Will be a great experience for them. Despite losing tons of Talent in our group Canada is still the favorite and I think Lithuania will make it too, Serbia of course too, so it wont make a big difference.

Shawshank
09-23-2020, 02:20 AM
in main Olympic tournament i can see some nba players playing.

Olympics starts around July 25th 14 nba teams players that wont make the playoffs should be free by that date .Maybe even players that team losses in first round.

Ofcourse if nba decides to start season like in February no nba players at all. From Silver talks that ale nba seasons starts in January is looking like good scenerio at this moment in time.

Katastroika
09-23-2020, 07:18 AM
It will hurt everyone, of course. But apart of that it's really a pitty not to see the best players in the world in the Olympics beside this. According to WOJ end of january is planned so I suppose that regular season will be exactly over before olympic tournament starts.

mojo13
10-01-2020, 04:43 PM
I would cry if I was Canadian. So many extraordinarily talented guys but they never manage to get them together.

We have no tears left to cry. This has been going on for so long, it is to be expected at this point. We just have to be happy with seeing how much Canadian basketball has improved over he last ten years and get our fix watching the NBA and European leagues, rather than any pride in a once every 4 years FIBA tournament. Watching the young kids like Jamal Murray morph into an elite players is a joy in itself.



Despite losing tons of Talent in our group Canada is still the favorite and I think Lithuania will make it too, Serbia of course too, so it wont make a big difference.

Toruko - help me understand why you think Canada would still be the favorite to Qualify (is home court that much of an advantage?) . I (and most Canadian fans) don't see it that way. I figured Greece was the big favorite now in our pool - isn't it a team full of EuroLegaue players that has shown pretty good form and chemistry in the past without Giannis? And I'm not as familiar with Turkey's depth, but Larkin should be the best player in the tournament supported by some decent EuroLegaue level players, no?
Even the Czechs seem formidable if everyone is without NBA players - due to chemistry, experience and consistency.

Canada will likely be formed by one or two average Euroleague players (Pangos, Pierre) and a bunch of BCL and EuroCup players (Wiltjer, Ennis & Ennis, the Scrubb brothers, Melvin Ejim). Perhaps we get ex-NBA'r Andrew Nicholson out of China (CBA). It is not the most impressive list of names but perhaps we can keep a core of 8 or 9 guys from the World Cup team together and have some level of chemistry and experience.

I think we can come close to matching our World Cup team which had a core of Cory Joseph, Khem Birch, Brady Heslip, Kevin Pangos, Kyle Wiltjer, Melvin Ejim, Conor Morgan, Owne Klassen, T. Scrubb, P. Scrubb. We'd lose Cory Joseph, Khem Birch, Brady Heslip but could add Tyler Ennis, Andrew Nicholson, Dyshawn Pierre, Dylan Ennis etc). I still think this is a decent team, but would it really be favored over Greece? Or Turkey?
What do you think Turkey and Greece rosters will be like? Are we overlooking Czech who might only lose one player (their best) from that good WC team?

Toruko
10-01-2020, 05:15 PM
Toruko - help me understand why you think Canada would still be the favorite to Qualify (is home court that much of an advantage?) . I (and most Canadian fans) don't see it that way. I figured Greece was the big favorite now in our pool - isn't it a team full of EuroLegaue players that has shown pretty good form and chemistry in the past without Giannis? And I'm not as familiar with Turkey's depth, but Larkin should be the best player in the tournament supported by some decent EuroLegaue level players, no?
Even the Czechs seem formidable if everyone is without NBA players - due to chemistry, experience and consistency.

Well, let me explain then. Lets start with Turkey. Turkeys main power comes from its 4 players included Larkin. Sure there are some guys who could compete but they are frankly said too unexperienced. Especially the bench will be far too weak. Incidently the team will have no time to prepare. I dont see any chance how Turkey could beat such a deep roster such as Canada has. In a one against one game everything to a certain point is possible though.

Greece surely has some advantages like experience and chemistry but it is also a super short roster, far too old and after the retirement of Bourousis pretty weak under the rim. I dont take Papagiannis seriously. He has too many deficiencies on the defensive end and is pretty much one dimensional which is on the other hand not a big problem when you have guards like Calathes and Sloukas. So what is left? A pretty solid guard rotation with Calathes and Sloukas who will have become 32 and 31 and my favorite Greek player Printezis, pretty solid but 36 year old. This team has no rim protection and no shooting. With Giannis things would change especially defensively but Canada is still much deeper and has more versatility.

The Czechs will lose their main organizer with Satoransky who leads a pretty much Champions League level team. Its a good prepared team with clear roles. The skill set is also not bad. The big short balance is also given but the overall talent especially without Sato is pretty limited and there is nobody who could take the lead to change things when it comes difficult times.

If Canada doesnt make it this time in Canada I really dont know when they can make it.

mojo13
10-02-2020, 04:30 PM
If Canada doesnt make it this time in Canada I really dont know when they can make it.

Yeah...I'm gonna guess, maybe when we have access to just handful of our top 20+ players?
Not for a second am I going to think we are doomed if we don't qualify for the Olympics under these circumstances.
This is not a blip for Canada...not a "Golden Generation" that has a limited window, this is a fundamental, long-term shift in the sporting culture of the nation. It's been decades in the making driven by demographic changes and generational shifts in sporting interests. It is not going away.


Thank you for the insight on the rest of your post by the way. But I'm not convinced that Canada would be favored out of that pool - but we likely need to see how the respective rosters shape up to get a better feel. A key injury now for Canada, Turkey, Greece, Czech will have a much more serious impact. Plus we can't forget we have China in our pool, who knows what lengths FIBA will go to see them Qualify?

Toruko
10-12-2020, 04:15 PM
Italy’s NBAers hope that the league will find a way for international players to be in Olympics/Qualifiers

12/Oct/20 17:35

Next year’s NBA schedule will make it impossible for many NBAers to be with their national teams in the Olympics.

By Antonis Stroggylakis / [email protected]

The possibilities of many NBA players, including major stars, joining their national teams in the Olympics and their Qualifiers are currently appearing to be less than slim after NBA commissioner Adam Silver said that it’s “unlikely” that the league will stop for the games in Tokyo.

With the 2021 NBA regular season beginning no earlier than January and if it features the usual schedule of 82 games over a period of six months, then it will be concluded in early June (the best-case scenario) or maybe even July. The Olympic Qualifiers, featuring NBA players-led national teams like Serbia, Canada, Greece, Italy or Slovenia, are planned to start on June 29.

There’s no way for someone like back-to-back NBA MVP Giannis Antetokounmpo or Nikola Jokic and Luka Doncic for example, to play in the Qualifiers… unless their clubs don’t make the playoffs.

The whole situation creates an unpleasant reality for all those players that were hoping to be with their national teams in the Olympic summer, including Italy’s Danilo Gallinari, Marco Belinelli, and Nicolo Melli The three Italian national team stars hope that the NBA will find some way to accommodate their need and desire to play with their country next summer and that a solution will be found.

“We asked the Players Association (NBPA) to work to find an agreement for a window to leave the NBA and go to the national team,” Gallinari said during the “Festival dello Sport,” organized by Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport. “And to ensure that the players don’t have to face an unjust and difficult choice.”

Belinelli mentioned that the absence of NBA stars from the Olympics is hurtful for both the league and the tournament in Tokyo. “The Olympics can’t exist without NBA stars,” Belinelli said. “It would be bad. We all care about our country’s jerseys and we all want to play in the Olympics.”

Italy will play in the Qualifying tournament in Belgrade, Serbia, along with Senegal, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and the hosts.

“It would be a shame. Also for the NBA which had has an international MVP for two years,” Melli said, referring to Antetokounmpo. The Greek Freak will also most probably miss the Qualifying tournament in Toronto, Canada where his country will compete for a spot in the Olympics.

“But we must also be very realistic, we are experiencing something unique,” Melli added.

Lets hope that at least some guys can attend to the qualifiers.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/1113318/italys-nbaers-hope-that-the-league-will-find-a-way-for-international-players-to-play-in-olympics-qualifiers/

mojo13
10-13-2020, 06:14 PM
Lets hope that at least some guys can attend to the qualifiers.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/1113318/italys-nbaers-hope-that-the-league-will-find-a-way-for-international-players-to-play-in-olympics-qualifiers/


That provides a small (small!) glimmer of optimism. Perhaps the Qualifiers will see some NBA players from some bad teams that are well eliminated from the playoffs even if the regular season has not fully concluded. Or maybe some deep bench / two-way players who will not be included on reduced playoff rosters can be released.

Not that these players are any better than what can be mustered out of Europe it could provide some teams some added depth, or file a key hole.

Victorious
10-17-2020, 03:17 PM
We'll have to see how some players will develop this season in order to have a better view of how strong the rosters will become. We have to consider that it will have been two years between the WC 2019 and the OG 2021. Some players will have gotten older or have retired. While others will have developed into stars or solid players.

Animeowl
10-19-2020, 02:17 PM
Oh great,just what I am looking for

Katastroika
10-22-2020, 05:21 AM
Very good Lithuanian roster for Qualifers!

Lithuania is keeping up it's great quality, depth and especially "winning culture". I am a big fan of Lithuanian team.

Mindozas
10-22-2020, 05:51 AM
Very good Lithuanian roster for Qualifers!

Lithuania is keeping up it's great quality, depth and especially "winning culture". I am a big fan of Lithuanian team.

It's for Eurobasket qualifying window mate, not for Olympics QT ;)

Katastroika
10-22-2020, 06:27 AM
It's for Eurobasket qualifying window mate, not for Olympics QT ;)

I know, bro. Would be a little too early for Olympics ;)

Mindozas
10-22-2020, 07:16 AM
I know, bro. Would be a little too early for Olympics ;)

Sure, you got me a bit confused by posting it here :) Not a big deal of course and agree, that's a good list, especially bearing in mind that we'll add guys to backcourt from EL like Grigonis, Lekavicius, Jokubaitis, Giedraitis. Then of course Gudaitis will be needed too, if NBA guys won't be available. But anyway, if Slovenes will come without Doncic, then Dragic won't reconsider his retirement, we should be fine

Straight forward
10-22-2020, 02:06 PM
Possible USA team without NBA players? How the team would look?

Mike James, Malcom Delaney, TY Lawson, Norris Cole
Cory Higgins, Lance Stephenson
Will Clymburn, Sonny Weems
Derick Williams, Jordan Mickey, Deshaun Thomas
Brandon Davis, Kyle Hines, Bryant Dunston

Man, it's tough. I personally can't decide whenever this team would look better than 2019 WC team or not? I don't think even Mike Hames or Higgins is even close to the talent Kemba and Mithell possess, but the team would probably be more physical, experienced and tougher (frontcourt) overall and having way much more FIBA experience, so much more ready for it.

As for OG, I don't really think USA can really gather such team. Will all these players suddenly available, caring about USA? I'm not sure. If they would, on the paper this is still probably the best roster (without NBA players). But this roster would be completely new, would it work? I would probably think that established and oiled NTs as Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, Argentina and so might have and edge over such roster because of more coherence. Anyway, if USA would gather all best from Euroleague, China, and maybe would add one or two upcoming super studs from NCAA/G league, it would still be the team to beat.

Mindozas
10-22-2020, 02:52 PM
^^^

Brandon Davies is respected citizen of Uganda and proud member of its national team of the game of basketball, while Dunston played for Armenia

mojo13
10-26-2020, 06:23 PM
^^^

Brandon Davies is respected citizen of Uganda and proud member of its national team of the game of basketball, while Dunston played for Armenia



Looks like this is all moot once again as the NBA bounces around trying to figure out what to do with its 20/21 season. After some horrible ratings for the playoffs, the NBA now looks to avoid going up against the NFL and NCAA football at all costs.

They state they are now targeting a Christmas start time, a reduced 72 game season with no all-star game (but perhaps a two week break sometime). Reduced travel, more in-market games etc. With goal of having the playoffs done before the Olympics and getting NBA players into the Olympics (Who knows what kind of turnout it could mean for the USA?).

This could have the regular season finished as early as mid-May (no details announced yet) and easily by mid June and could very meaningfully impact the the Qualifiers.

Canada for, one could have access to some of the players that miss the playoff or exit in the first round or two. It could mean no Jamal Murray, Kelly Olynyk or Andrew Wiggins - as I expect their teams to go far in the playoffs but many others could be in play.

Mindozas
10-27-2020, 10:04 AM
Looks like this is all moot once again as the NBA bounces around trying to figure out what to do with its 20/21 season. After some horrible ratings for the playoffs, the NBA now looks to avoid going up against the NFL and NCAA football at all costs.

They state they are now targeting a Christmas start time, a reduced 72 game season with no all-star game (but perhaps a two week break sometime). Reduced travel, more in-market games etc. With goal of having the playoffs done before the Olympics and getting NBA players into the Olympics (Who knows what kind of turnout it could mean for the USA?).

This could have the regular season finished as early as mid-May (no details announced yet) and easily by mid June and could very meaningfully impact the the Qualifiers.

Canada for, one could have access to some of the players that miss the playoff or exit in the first round or two. It could mean no Jamal Murray, Kelly Olynyk or Andrew Wiggins - as I expect their teams to go far in the playoffs but many others could be in play.

It's still not perfect, I want the best possible teams even for qualies to decide which ones are worthy to qualify to event like Olympics, but anyway that's a great news to read, things are moving to right direction

Katastroika
10-28-2020, 09:49 PM
I read today that players are asking league to start with Martin Luther King Day (January 18th). I still don't see how they want to start it at 22nd of December if draft is scheduled for November 18th. I hope I'm wrong but I am pretty sure we will see NBAless Olympics.

We should know more at October 30th if we are facing December 22nd as the Player's Union has the right of an eight week timespan between agreement with the league and season start. By watching the calender this is already impossible if there's no additional agreement.

I read ESPN before two days, all world is referring to them and also WOJ retweeted them what is also a good sign but litereally noone implicated that late December is the only option. As i said, i hope I am wrong.

Toruko
10-28-2020, 10:08 PM
Every nation, institution and being should have respect to the Olympic soul. I hope they start in Dec even though some player start playing later. 72 games are also in the interest of the player even though they get less money.

Katastroika
10-30-2020, 08:05 PM
Qualifiers delayed for one week. For me no clear reason, but just to mention it.

Mindozas
10-30-2020, 08:17 PM
Qualifiers delayed for one week. For me no clear reason, but just to mention it.

You mean when new dates were announced few months ago? Indeed it was a bit later than original schedule for 2020. Or it was done now again?

Katastroika
10-30-2020, 09:03 PM
You mean when new dates were announced few months ago? Indeed it was a bit later than original schedule for 2020. Or it was done now again?

I can just say for Serbian tournament - moved from 22nd June beginning to 29th June beginning and lasts until 4th July. This is new.

mojo13
10-30-2020, 10:16 PM
I can just say for Serbian tournament - moved from 22nd June beginning to 29th June beginning and lasts until 4th July. This is new.

FIBA looks to be accommodating the NBA the best they can. They want the biggest NBA names in the Olympics as well.

It is supposedly the latest start date the IOC will allow.

Good news to me....hopefully more to come with the announcement of an NBA start date.

mojo13
10-30-2020, 10:24 PM
FIBA looks to be accommodating the NBA the best they can. They want the biggest NBA names in the Olympics as well.

It is supposedly the latest start date the IOC will allow.

Good news to me....hopefully more to come with the announcement of an NBA start date.



Turns out this isnt news - it was announced in May. Mark Stein let out a Tweet like it was fresh news. Tricked me too.

Mindozas
10-31-2020, 08:44 AM
I can just say for Serbian tournament - moved from 22nd June beginning to 29th June beginning and lasts until 4th July. This is new.

Nah, mate, it's not new, such dates were originally announced back in May ;) I thought maybe they moved the tournaments even closer to Olympics, but seems not, maybe those a bit later dates were the only one available for all sides

https://www.fiba.basketball/news/fiba-confirms-dates-for-fiba-olympic-qualifying-tournaments#:~:text=MIES%20(Switzerland)%20%2D%20A fter%20discussions,29%20to%20July%204%2C%202021.

Katastroika
10-31-2020, 11:49 AM
Nah, mate, it's not new, such dates were originally announced back in May ;) I thought maybe they moved the tournaments even closer to Olympics, but seems not, maybe those a bit later dates were the only one available for all sides

https://www.fiba.basketball/news/fiba-confirms-dates-for-fiba-olympic-qualifying-tournaments#:~:text=MIES%20(Switzerland)%20%2D%20A fter%20discussions,29%20to%20July%204%2C%202021.

Thanks for updating me, bro.

Wr still can't buy tickets here even this is the least important issue now with the current situation. So I maybe missed this one.

Katastroika
11-01-2020, 10:31 AM
Still no agreement between NBA and players association. At the end we know now that NBA officials target 22nd December but players association MLK Day. This was the 4th delay of the negotiations. Chances are worse in my opinion. I can even think of a lockout until January if officials declare pre-catholic Christmas start of the season. I understand the symbolic date for African Americans but NBA first time declared a pre-Olympic finish of the season a target so I have to honestly say that I am positively surprised by Adam Silver.

Official losses of NBA for a delay would be over a billion dollars (12% of earnings). I have a feeling that outcome of US elections could go in favor of a delay. Chances are smaller definitely, I hoped for an agreement yesterday. Deadline is moved to November 6th.