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Tevfik1907
08-07-2019, 02:55 PM
Greece (Fiba World Rank: 008)
Brazil (Fiba World Rank: 012)
Montenegro (Fiba World Rank: 028)
New Zealand (Fiba World Rank: 038)



1 September 2019

New Zealand - Brazil
16:00 GMT+08
City, Arena: Nanjing, Gymnasium of Youth Olympic Games Sport Park
Game day 1

Greece - Montenegro
20:00 GMT+08
City, Arena: Nanjing, Gymnasium of Youth Olympic Games Sport Park
Game day 1


3 September 2019

Montenegro - New Zealand
16:00 GMT+08
City, Arena: Nanjing, Gymnasium of Youth Olympic Games Sport Park
Game day 2


Brazil - Greece
20:00 GMT+08
City, Arena: Nanjing, Gymnasium of Youth Olympic Games Sport Park
Game day 2


5 September 2019

Brazil - Montenegro
16:00 GMT+08
City, Arena: Nanjing, Gymnasium of Youth Olympic Games Sport Park
Game day 3


Greece - New Zealand
20:00 GMT+08
City, Arena: Nanjing, Gymnasium of Youth Olympic Games Sport Park
Game day 3

christodoulou76
08-07-2019, 02:58 PM
How is Greece ranked 8th in the world? No good results in 10 years. FIBA rankings are ridiculous.

New Zealand seems an obvious 4th here.

Toruko
08-07-2019, 03:01 PM
How is Greece ranked 8th in the world? No good results in 10 years. FIBA rankings are ridiculous.

New Zealand seems an obvious 4th here.


The coefficients: Olympics brings the most points, then wc, then Eurobasket so on. If you play one good WC you are safe make to big leap for at least the next WC.

Adon
08-07-2019, 03:53 PM
How is Greece ranked 8th in the world? No good results in 10 years. FIBA rankings are ridiculous.

New Zealand seems an obvious 4th here.

Why don't you give your allegedly more serious ranking to make a comparison?

mojo13
08-07-2019, 04:01 PM
I think it is well established that FIBA Rankings do not correlate well to current strength of nations. They are a historical look back of results in major tournaments over the last 8 years, nothing more. It is only unfortunate that these rankings matter when creating draws or offering Wild Cards - other than that there is no reason to take them seriously.

Unless you think Argentina is the 5th best team in the world right now. Or Mexico 14th. or Croatia 9th and on an on.

christodoulou76
08-07-2019, 04:01 PM
Why don't you give your allegedly more serious ranking to make a comparison?

Eurobasket 2013 11th
World Cup 2014 9th (no 9-16 classification games)
Eurobasket 2015 5th (no 5/6 classification game)
Olympics 2016 didn't qualify
Eurobasket 2017 8th

Yeah, this is the profile of the 8th best team in the world. Favored by automatic classification in 2014 and 2015 otherwise position in final standings would have been even worse.

Toruko
08-07-2019, 04:07 PM
I think it is well established that FIBA Rankings do not correlate well to current strength of nations. They are a historical look back of results in major tournaments over the last 8 years, nothing more. It is only unfortunate that these rankings matter when creating draws or offering Wild Cards - other than that there is no reason to take them seriously.

Unless you think Argentina is the 5th best team in the world right now. Or Mexico 14th. or Croatia 9th and on an on.

All the latino american countries are overrated. If it is Venezuela, Argentina or even Brazil

Steadysoul
08-07-2019, 04:26 PM
All the latino american countries are overrated. If it is Venezuela, Argentina or even Brazil

All easily explained though. Ven is buoyed because of the olympics. Just going gives you plenty of points. Brazil has never missed a FWC and hosted the last Olympics. Argentina is largely the same. They are buoyed by constantly qualifying for the big events.
Really unless they do worse than the previous version most teams get buoyed by consistently qualifying. The rankings reward consistently and to quote/paraphrase someone from earlier this week, "If you want to go up in the rankings, you need to win games". But I also don't know how else one would rank teams equally in a competition format that everyone would actually agree to. That's for a whole other thread though.

More on topic, Brazil has to have the oldest team.

Dtown
08-07-2019, 04:27 PM
Eurobasket 2013 11th
World Cup 2014 9th (no 9-16 classification games)
Eurobasket 2015 5th (no 5/6 classification game)
Olympics 2016 didn't qualify
Eurobasket 2017 8th

Yeah, this is the profile of the 8th best team in the world. Favored by automatic classification in 2014 and 2015 otherwise position in final standings would have been even worse.

Under the new qualification rankings Greece's good qualification record counts as well.

Really though I'd say Greece 8th ranking reflects on the teams below them being even more inconsistent than Greece.

As for this Group I have the Greeks going 3-0 with the other teams in a dog fight for the 2nd spot.

christodoulou76
08-07-2019, 04:36 PM
Really though I'd say Greece 8th ranking reflects on the teams below them being even more inconsistent than Greece.

Good point. I stand corrected.

Toruko
08-07-2019, 04:52 PM
Every Team below the top 4 lacks of something. If it is bigs, bench, forwards or Guards. Argentina must play with a 40 year old Scola, Greece with Printezis and Bourousis, Turkey lacked always a decent Guard since Kerem Tunceri let alone the center. Italy has practically no center etc.

The countries cant either raise some prospects or they cant polish them.

Rodrigue Beaubois
08-07-2019, 08:47 PM
I believe New Zealand is a lock for the 4th spot, Greece is obviously first. Between MNE and BRA, I think we have a slight advantage, maybe something like 55-45%.

turbostef
08-08-2019, 04:15 PM
I would say that qualifying with only One loss helped Greece in the FIBA Ranking ;)

Nevertheless I find it hard to find more than 7 teams that are better than Greece at the moment

USA
Serbia

For Spain, Canada, Australia, France, Lithuania someone could argue

Where is the rest?

Having Giannis helps alot but will not be enough if the others will not step up (Calathes, Sloukas, Papanikolaou etc.)

Adon
08-08-2019, 09:50 PM
I would say that qualifying with only One loss helped Greece in the FIBA Ranking ;)

Nevertheless I find it hard to find more than 7 teams that are better than Greece at the moment

USA
Serbia

For Spain, Canada, Australia, France, Lithuania someone could argue

Where is the rest?

Having Giannis helps alot but will not be enough if the others will not step up (Calathes, Sloukas, Papanikolaou etc.)

I would put Slovenia instead of Canada who hasn't won anything yet.

Tevfik1907
08-10-2019, 12:17 AM
https://www.eurohoops.net/en/fibawc/917488/greece-routs-hungary-in-giannis-return/


Giannis Antetokounmpo scored a game-high 19 points and grabbed eight rebounds in 21:28 in his return to the Greek national team, leading his squad to an 83 – 59 rout over Hungary in the “Aegean International Tournament”.

The “Greek Freak” shot 5/7 2-pointers, 0/1 3-pointers and 9/10 from the line after getting fouled eight times by his opponents. He received an ovation when Greece coach Thanasis Skourtopoulos substituted him in the final moments of the game.

“It’s not just about the points he scores. He’s everywhere. Rebounds, defense, blocks. He can do everything,” Skourtopoulos said on Giannis to the Greek national television after the game.

Zoltan Perl dropped 12 points for Hungary while Gyorgy Goloman had 10 points and five steals. Their team was overwhelmed 22 – 6 in the first quarter and trailed by a large margin for the remainder of the match.

Greece captain Ioannis Bourousis added 10 points and five rebounds for Greece.

Giannis Antetokounmpo’s brother, Kostas, made his debut, scoring two points and grabbing four rebounds in 11:14.

Darrell Armstrong
08-20-2019, 09:44 AM
Wanted to ask Montenegro fans, what's happening with your NT? The last games have been a disaster, piling up losses against France (expected), Brazil, and even a Scola-less Argentina. I thought you had one of the best inside duos in the whole tournament with Dubjlevic & Vucevic, but it doesn't look like it's working so far. At least in the friendly games they haven't been able to dominate, even against teams without great size. So, what gives? Bad guards? Poor coaching? Bad chemistry? Or they are just slowly improving and will be all right once the tournament starts?

Rodrigue Beaubois
08-20-2019, 11:37 AM
Wanted to ask Montenegro fans, what's happening with your NT? The last games have been a disaster, piling up losses against France (expected), Brazil, and even a Scola-less Argentina. I thought you had one of the best inside duos in the whole tournament with Dubjlevic & Vucevic, but it doesn't look like it's working so far. At least in the friendly games they haven't been able to dominate, even against teams without great size. So, what gives? Bad guards? Poor coaching? Bad chemistry? Or they are just slowly improving and will be all right once the tournament starts?

The main strength, or it's better to say the only true strength is the strong frontcourt. The guards are pretty bad and we know that (except Ivanovic, but he's extremely prone to injuries), so we don't expect too much from them. The game against France was the first prep game of our team. We played that game very well, and even led throughout most of the game. We had an 8-point lead after 3 quarters. In the end it wasn't enough, Batum stepped out, but we didn't expect a win there. So the impression from that game was OK, Vucevic had some difficulties against Gobert, but it's Ok, it was his first game since April.
In the other two games, coach decided to play only with one of those guys (Vucevic played against ARG, and Dubljevic against BRA), so I think it was done on purpose by our coach to make our opponents underestimate us. I have no doubt that we will play with those two together for 30+ minutes when the tournament starts. The coach is good, the atmosphere in the team looks fine. I think there are no problems, but we will see.

Darrell Armstrong
08-20-2019, 11:53 AM
The main strength, or it's better to say the only true strength is the strong frontcourt. The guards are pretty bad and we know that (except Ivanovic, but he's extremely prone to injuries), so we don't expect too much from them. The game against France was the first prep game of our team. We played that game very well, and even led throughout most of the game. We had an 8-point lead after 3 quarters. In the end it wasn't enough, Batum stepped out, but we didn't expect a win there. So the impression from that game was OK, Vucevic had some difficulties against Gobert, but it's Ok, it was his first game since April.
In the other two games, coach decided to play only with one of those guys (Vucevic played against ARG, and Dubljevic against BRA), so I think it was done on purpose by our coach to make our opponents underestimate us. I have no doubt that we will play with those two together for 30+ minutes when the tournament starts. The coach is good, the atmosphere in the team looks fine. I think there are no problems, but we will see.

Thanks! I think New Zealand is playing very poorly, with losses against Japan and Canada. Likely the weakest team in this group, so it will boil down to the match against Brazil to get to the 2nd round. Or maybe surprise Greece, although it's quite unlikely, as no team can really afford to lose a game this year if they want to qualify for the QFs.

Rodrigue Beaubois
08-20-2019, 12:50 PM
Thanks! I think New Zealand is playing very poorly, with losses against Japan and Canada. Likely the weakest team in this group, so it will boil down to the match against Brazil to get to the 2nd round. Or maybe surprise Greece, although it's quite unlikely, as no team can really afford to lose a game this year if they want to qualify for the QFs.

I am sure New Zealand will not go without a fight, but with all due respect to them, I think it will all come down to MNE-BRA game.

Victorious
08-30-2019, 06:30 PM
Greece played an exhıbıtıon game agaınst Montenegro ın 2017. It was the first exhibition game Greece played that year, and the only game where Giannis Antetokoumpo participated. I remember that the game went down to the wire. With this in mind Greece should play with intensity from the first second to win this game. Montenegro will be after a surprise victory. I am quite sure that they believe this and are betting on it. So interesting game to watch.

Jazz
08-30-2019, 06:39 PM
I just saw the final Greek roster. Vasilopoulos!! In 2019!! I'd seen his name in the earlier rosters this summer but I still find it astonishing. Credit to him though, he had a lot of injuries earlier in his career.

JGX
09-01-2019, 08:35 AM
Good game so far between Brazil and New Zealand. Brazil has to have the most old guys on their team of anyone in the tournament.

Tesla
09-01-2019, 09:49 AM
Love watching the Brazilian bench in time outs. Such animated, emotional south Americans.

JGX
09-01-2019, 10:02 AM
NZ 10/24 from three in the first half and just 2/12 in the second, C. Webster just two points in the second half as well.

radallo
09-01-2019, 12:02 PM
any streaming for Greece game?

Mindozas
09-01-2019, 12:10 PM
any streaming for Greece game?

http://0eb.net/video/2148303.html

greenarcher
09-01-2019, 01:01 PM
Montenegro worse than Philippines hahaha

Valexander
09-01-2019, 01:28 PM
I can almost here all the screams from all over the world to greek coach for the low minutes to Giannis, and all the bets about him thrown to the garbage..

christodoulou76
09-01-2019, 01:43 PM
I can almost here all the screams from all over the world to greek coach for the low minutes to Giannis, and all the bets about him thrown to the garbage..

bettors always gonna hate. protect giannis! :D

Mindozas
09-01-2019, 01:50 PM
I had total under 151.5pts bet, so I was very happy about that :)

Valexander
09-01-2019, 01:53 PM
I had total under 151.5pts bet, so I was very happy about that :)

Good for you! Still the rest of the world, if you throw them Lionel Messi as the starting pg in Argentina NT they will bet for the top scorer!:p

Rodrigue Beaubois
09-01-2019, 01:53 PM
This was such a disaster. A defeat was expected, but to lose in such way is unacceptable, they looked as if someone made them play this game. Now I am not sure if we can beat New Zealand.

Victorious
09-01-2019, 02:57 PM
This was such a disaster. A defeat was expected, but to lose in such way is unacceptable, they looked as if someone made them play this game. Now I am not sure if we can beat New Zealand.

Montenegro has the potential to beat New Zealand as well as Brazil. Not saying that they will make it. But they are able to do it. IMO they were a dangerous opponent for Greece, but the Greeks were well prepared. This Greek team reminds me of the team from the 2004-2008 era. It starts with defense first and continues from there.

teo4
09-01-2019, 04:02 PM
Montenegro should be embarrassed, first time at World Cup and to play like this. Vucevic again trash in national jersey, what a surprise.

Dtown
09-01-2019, 04:11 PM
It wouldn't shock me if Brazil/Montenegro/New Zealand all finished 1-2.

fasoulaki
09-01-2019, 08:08 PM
I can almost here all the screams from all over the world to greek coach for the low minutes to Giannis, and all the bets about him thrown to the garbage..

I have the impression that Giannis has an influence on the match even if he is sitting on the bench. The opponent coach has to adapt his whole strategy to Giannis which gives a lot more room for creativity to the other greek players.

fasoulaki
09-01-2019, 08:10 PM
This Greek team reminds me of the team from the 2004-2008 era. It starts with defense first and continues from there.
It was a nice game I agree but I had the impression that they are lacking maturity in some phases. Especially due to Thanassis behavior Montenegro was able to get 5 points in a row, I think in the 3rd quarter. In a close game this would mean the death penalty.

Demetrios I. Soter
09-01-2019, 08:27 PM
First game for Greece, an easy victory against a not so easy team. Papa Giannis was today the Papa of Giannis :-) offensive extremely strong. He has taken steps forward, even his defense is getting better at least against big guys. The MVP of the NBA played 16 minutes… Okay, I do not want to over-dramatize as this was maybe just right this way, especially since Greece did not need his help and could spare Giannis but still this is less playing time than in the friendly games. At the press conference, Giannis stated and put his teammates above him and even said he would do any task or role the coach give him, whether itīs on defense or just to grab rebounds. (You could also understand out of this, that he wanted to play more.) I think the 16 minutes playing time was not a perfect entry into the world championship at least for his caliber. I have the little feeling it goes the motto; Giannis will be used only if itīs urgently needed. This could mean that he is not 100% involved, which in turn means that Greece does not exploit his full power or better say his nearly full power as you can just get the full if you build around him – 10 points is an unusual result for Giannis - that's the truth. It could go in both ways because by increasing playing time with the relevance of the opponents that could be just right way for Giannis to save his energy, but it could be also wrong in terms of being not hot enough if it counts and you have to play 30 and more minutes. To tell the truth I wanted to see Giannis more as the main actor and I had my doubts if that will happen, I think he will hold back, and Greece will more looking to him when it counts btw when they need him. it's too early to judge that. But so much for the first game.

guilherme.rcf
09-02-2019, 01:49 AM
I was less motivated a couple of weeks ago. Lets see if we can keep the good level shown in the recent games we played.

Buzissa
09-02-2019, 02:12 AM
Good game so far between Brazil and New Zealand. Brazil has to have the most old guys on their team of anyone in the tournament.

It was the old guys (Alex Garcia, Marquinhos, Leandrinho) that made the decisive push for Brazil.
Leandro Barbosa still got it.

fasoulaki
09-02-2019, 06:37 AM
First game for Greece, an easy victory against a not so easy team. Papa Giannis was today the Papa of Giannis :-) offensive extremely strong. He has taken steps forward, even his defense is getting better at least against big guys. The MVP of the NBA played 16 minutes… Okay, I do not want to over-dramatize as this was maybe just right this way, especially since Greece did not need his help and could spare Giannis but still this is less playing time than in the friendly games. At the press conference, Giannis stated and put his teammates above him and even said he would do any task or role the coach give him, whether itīs on defense or just to grab rebounds. (You could also understand out of this, that he wanted to play more.) I think the 16 minutes playing time was not a perfect entry into the world championship at least for his caliber. I have the little feeling it goes the motto; Giannis will be used only if itīs urgently needed. This could mean that he is not 100% involved, which in turn means that Greece does not exploit his full power or better say his nearly full power as you can just get the full if you build around him – 10 points is an unusual result for Giannis - that's the truth. It could go in both ways because by increasing playing time with the relevance of the opponents that could be just right way for Giannis to save his energy, but it could be also wrong in terms of being not hot enough if it counts and you have to play 30 and more minutes. To tell the truth I wanted to see Giannis more as the main actor and I had my doubts if that will happen, I think he will hold back, and Greece will more looking to him when it counts btw when they need him. it's too early to judge that. But so much for the first game.

I think giving key players (not only Giannis) some rest was a very good decision by the coach. This indicates that the coaching stuff is targeting a long tournament participation. This tournament has many many many games especially due to the second group phase. We will need the top players fresh and healthy in the knock-out stage or during crucial and close games in the group stages. But not when Greece is trailing by +20 points. I have seen tournaments where Greece was realiying heavily on their starters and failed at the knock-out stage. Allthough I have still strong doubts regarding Skourtopoulos qualities I think he has done a very good job so far. He has taken very mature decisions regarding the preparation strategy and the roster and seems to have a game plan in this tournament. Maybe this qualification tournament has not been so bad at all. It was as an opportunity for the coaching stuff to gain some experience under FIBA competition conditions.

tiro1
09-02-2019, 08:10 PM
I see Montenegro advancing despite their appearence in the 1st game. As long as they play to their strengths i predict a win against Brazil in the last game.

Adon
09-02-2019, 08:27 PM
I see Montenegro advancing despite their appearence in the 1st game. As long as they play to their strengths i predict a win against Brazil in the last game.

Greek NT played an exhausting defense, especially at the first half. All teams (and not only Modenegro) would look worse than usual.

Valexander
09-02-2019, 09:06 PM
I think giving key players (not only Giannis) some rest was a very good decision by the coach. This indicates that the coaching stuff is targeting a long tournament participation. This tournament has many many many games especially due to the second group phase. We will need the top players fresh and healthy in the knock-out stage or during crucial and close games in the group stages. But not when Greece is trailing by +20 points. I have seen tournaments where Greece was realiying heavily on their starters and failed at the knock-out stage. Allthough I have still strong doubts regarding Skourtopoulos qualities I think he has done a very good job so far. He has taken very mature decisions regarding the preparation strategy and the roster and seems to have a game plan in this tournament. Maybe this qualification tournament has not been so bad at all. It was as an opportunity for the coaching stuff to gain some experience under FIBA competition conditions.

Although signs from prep were good at least on some individuals ( if I was in wada and compare Papagiannis’ performance with his performance half a year ago I would call a test immediately :p) still i didn’t see a strong friendly were they will force greece to iso game. When Serbia did giannis was on 3(!!) and we had to loose 5 sec at least looking at him if he can pull a rabbit out of his hair, until they catch tendinitis by multiple contested threes. We found a rhythm when he was out.
I am just asking if skourtopoulos and co are ready for isolation with giannis in, used at the 4. Serbia was a disaster and I didn’t see any other prep game to get used to it and watch the possible answers

paspalj
09-02-2019, 09:15 PM
Finally home from vacation. Itís time to start watching some WC but reading your conversations here I feel like I have already missed a lot :p

fasoulaki
09-02-2019, 09:34 PM
Although signs from prep were good at least on some individuals ( if I was in wada and compare Papagiannis’ performance with his performance half a year ago I would call a test immediately :p) still i didn’t see a strong friendly were they will force greece to iso game. When Serbia did giannis was on 3(!!) and we had to loose 5 sec at least looking at him if he can pull a rabbit out of his hair, until they catch tendinitis by multiple contested threes. We found a rhythm when he was out.
I am just asking if skourtopoulos and co are ready for isolation with giannis in, used at the 4. Serbia was a disaster and I didn’t see any other prep game to get used to it and watch the possible answers

I am not sure if I am getting your comment right but the scene I remember from the Serbia game where Giannis was playing on three was not really an isolation play. Giannis had the ball and the rest of the team was rather static. Nobody tried to distract the defenders by any kind of special movement to create space for Giannis. As a result whenever Giannis moved closer to the zone there were three defenders around moving to his direction to defend him.

Valexander
09-02-2019, 09:53 PM
I am not sure if I am getting your comment right but the scene I remember from the Serbia game where Giannis was playing on three was not really an isolation play. Giannis had the ball and the rest of the team was rather static. Nobody tried to distract the defenders by any kind of special movement to create space for Giannis. As a result whenever Giannis moved closer to the zone there were three defenders around moving to his direction to defend him.

Yes you got the point of my thought. I didn’t see any play or ball movement when the rhythm was down and giannis was stuck outside helpless

fasoulaki
09-02-2019, 10:05 PM
Yes you got the point of my thought. I didn’t see any play or ball movement when the rhythm was down and giannis was stuck outside helpless
I think one of the many problems against Serbia was that Sloukas was missing. For example against Montenegro Sloukas and Calathes were playing together, which was not possible against Serbia. In addition I had the impression that Skourtopoulos did not want to show everything which does not necessarily mean that the official game will have another outcome than the friendly in case we meet again in the tournament. Regarding isolation I am wondering if this will work against zone defense. So even if they train an iso play Giannis might face the same problem when the opponent turns to zone defense.

Valexander
09-02-2019, 10:23 PM
I think one of the many problems against Serbia was that Sloukas was missing. For example against Montenegro Sloukas and Calathes were playing together, which was not possible against Serbia. In addition I had the impression that Skourtopoulos did not want to show everything which does not necessarily mean that the official game will have another outcome than the friendly in case we meet again in the tournament. Regarding isolation I am wondering if this will work against zone defense. So even if they train an iso play Giannis might face the same problem when the opponent turns to zone defense.

As you said before I think we all have our doubts about the coaching stuff. I honestly hope I am wrong

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 08:41 AM
So it seems Montenegro is the weakest team in the group. Vucevic is soft like vanilla pudding. And the coach is not doing much to help his team with the technical fouls he provokes.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 09:01 AM
So it seems Montenegro is the weakest team in the group. Vucevic is soft like vanilla pudding. And the coach is not doing much to help his team with the technical fouls he provokes.
did they just eject the MNE coach in their most important game of the tournament?

Darrell Armstrong
09-03-2019, 09:10 AM
did they just eject the MNE coach in their most important game of the tournament?

He did everything he could to be ejected, though.

Valexander
09-03-2019, 09:12 AM
So it seems Montenegro is the weakest team in the group. Vucevic is soft like vanilla pudding. And the coach is not doing much to help his team with the technical fouls he provokes.

I was expecting more also. although it's harsh since it is MNE first appearance, i think we have here the first underperfoming surprise.

MrRager
09-03-2019, 09:28 AM
Why is Vucevic playing so little?

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 09:29 AM
Little Pera Popovic has hugest balls in this roster. What a shame. Hope they get it done and win this one.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 09:41 AM
Kiwis got tired and are slowing down. I guess slow game suits better to Montenegro but they have to keep the games speed low.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 09:43 AM
He did everything he could to be ejected, though.
right. it seems it has helped the team :)

MrRager
09-03-2019, 09:55 AM
Shameful display by Montenegro.

Picek
09-03-2019, 10:25 AM
Shameful display by Montenegro.not really.
it was a good display from the opponent.
C. Brewster played a great game.
what is worst thing for Montenegro, Petrovic, croatian coach of Brasil warned Montenegrins after Brasil's game against New Zealand, he said that it will be hard to play against New Zealand because of their untypical game style where everyone is rocking threes, all of their bigs included, and that they should be careful about it.
it didn''t help them.
Brasil adapted to New Zealand game style during HT break and ran away with it in the third.
Montenegro came back in the third but collapsed in the fourth.

btw. Needham was supposed to be an addition for this team.
easily Montenegro's worst player in both games.

Obina
09-03-2019, 10:47 AM
Physically Montenegro is a terrible team, roster is really soft. And Vucevic will never performs in NT on all star level.

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 10:58 AM
If Isaac Fotu dominates Nikola Vucevic and Bojan Dubljevic I'm a little speechless. Milko Debilko Bjelica already costed me many nerves in my life while playing for Crvena zvezda, I won't even comment him. Montenegro bigs were disastrous.

Big up to Petar Popovic! Respect, kid. Only one trying at least to organize and push. I have a feeling that Nikola Ivanovic will have huge troubles to become the player he has been 2-3 years ago. The injuries destroyed him.

Aleksa Popovic, Dino Radoncic, Needham, Todorovic, total useless in this tournament. And of course the always popular mascots Sehovic brothers, good with the government so in roster until 2050.

MrRager
09-03-2019, 11:01 AM
If Isaac Fotu dominates Nikola Vucevic and Bojan Dubljevic I'm a little speechless. Milko Debilko Bjelica already costed me many nerves in my life while playing for Crvena zvezda, I won't even comment him. Montenegro bigs were disastrous.

Big up to Petar Popovic! Respect, kid. Only one trying at least to organize and push. I have a feeling that Nikola Ivanovic will have huge troubles to become the player he has been 2-3 years ago. The injuries destroyed him.

Aleksa Popovic, Dino Radoncic, Needham, Todorovic, total useless in this tournament. And of course the always popular mascots Sehovic brothers, good with the government so in roster until 2050.

Vucevic really looked mediocre in this game, maybe he was injured?

Demetrios I. Soter
09-03-2019, 11:42 AM
Very pitty for Montenegro.

Now Brazil vs Greece.
Brazilian media show their self-confidence, they stated Greece is a favorite but they see good chances of winning.
They also stated they know how to stop Giannis but want not communicate. The fact is, Brazil is playing fast, fact is also Brazil is 8cm smaller in team sizes which is a big difference.
Therefore greece should have made the right adjustment to this brazilian team - at least for the offense there it should be clear how to exploit the size difference.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 11:45 AM
Lets see if we can get a better picture of the real performance level of the greek team.

Demetrios I. Soter
09-03-2019, 11:53 AM
Lets see if we can get a better picture of the real performance level of the greek team.

yeep, chance are small that he repeat 10pts

Jon_Koncak
09-03-2019, 11:56 AM
Montentegro is Buducnost minus their foreigners plus Dublevic and Vucevic(who dont compliment each other at all) plus a crappy naturalised american.In other words not really good.But again give them a break,we sometimes forget we talk about a country as big as Luxemburg

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 12:11 PM
bloody start!

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 12:22 PM
At least offensively Greece looks better without Giannis, much better spacing and ball movement. Defensively he gives the team a totally different dimension as they are even without him a great defending team. Brazilian seniors playing really tough. Great game to watch.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 12:30 PM
too bad I have to switch to see us get slaughtered, but this is a very good game so far.

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 12:33 PM
Great rhythm of Printezis in this tournament. He is unstoppable.

christodoulou76
09-03-2019, 12:33 PM
Giannis looks lost out there

Burek
09-03-2019, 12:33 PM
There's not a lot you can do when the Greeks start shooting like the Golden State Warriors.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 12:44 PM
I hope Giannis will find his way into this tournament at some point.

Valexander
09-03-2019, 12:52 PM
Statistically crazy 3pt% for team Greece. that precentage should find a balance through out the second half, and we will have a game again.

Nemanja
09-03-2019, 01:04 PM
I dont watch Nba, obviously Jokic and Antetokounmpo have some pretty visible lacks which could exploit opponents .They are players of Nba style , in Europe im not surprised because their problems ..Simply,Antetokounmpo dont has space which does in Nba , but Jokic which has excellent pass in Nba ,that derives from leisureness what also couldnt afford in play with more competitive inclined style .There are team defense who could make exploit their lacks and other lacks of their teammates .

I remember Eurobasket 2011.when Nowitzki played for Germany after Nba title ,Germany didnt qualified neither in quarter-finals ,Nowitzki who was without doubt one of best European player,on this tournament didnt played anything special .Including adjustments on Nba style in Europe and speeding up of play ,still team qualities are more important than individual qualities .

christodoulou76
09-03-2019, 01:05 PM
horrible start to the 2nd half for GRE

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 01:23 PM
Lets see if Greeks can turn the game in the 4th quarter.

JGX
09-03-2019, 01:33 PM
I just wanna watch Alex Garcia shooting free throws all day.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 01:34 PM
I just wanna watch Alex Garcia shooting free throws all day.
I was thinking of the picture you posted in that thread. He really has a special one!

Nemanja
09-03-2019, 01:37 PM
Crucial problem of Greece isnt shoot for 3p,but deepness in offense ,on center neither Bourousis neither Papagianis are not good on post ,Printezis yes,Papanikolaous isnt used on post ,also lacks some player who has good drive .Problems in defense are visible and unexpected ,especially on positions pg,sg,sf, very easy and very naive Brazilians drives .In important game,such lacks are worrying .

MrRager
09-03-2019, 01:39 PM
Love me some Nick the Brick from time to time. Watching Brazil feels like I am in 2010 again.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 01:40 PM
The same Greece as every year!

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 01:43 PM
Does Greece leave the tournament after a loss?

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 01:43 PM
who is the "grandpa"? Barbosa? I thought you guys were joking until I heard the Brazil coach use it.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 01:44 PM
Does Greece leave the tournament after a loss?
you mean to NZ? then, yes. (if they lose this one)

Picek
09-03-2019, 01:49 PM
Unsportsmanlike by Luz?
Really?

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 01:50 PM
This was no unsportsmanlike foul to me on Luz. Changed everything totally.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 01:51 PM
They gave like 5 whistles to Brazil before so lets give one to Greece as well.

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 01:52 PM
Did they? I understand that you watch it from a different perspective but this was a scandal as they reviewed it. I didn't have the intension that they whistled pro Brasil.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 01:53 PM
there were too many of those call in this tournament already, but regardless of it, Greece did what they were supposed to do! Big big plays over there in that stretch from the "oldies". Now, if they finish off with a buzzer beater 3-pointer here, we know we're back in 10 years ago.

edit: not a bad play on Giannis alley-oop, but they should have gone with an oldie there, imho.

edit2: holy cow. this is brewing up to be a legendary game :D

Picek
09-03-2019, 01:59 PM
Of course. This was not an unsportsmanlike by Giannis.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 02:00 PM
I hate this game!

christodoulou76
09-03-2019, 02:00 PM
congrats to BRA! great game plan against Giannis. Varejao was amazing.

ZaliaBalta
09-03-2019, 02:02 PM
I never went with the "GREECE IS THE TEAM TO GIVE USA A CHALLENGE" wave.. you guys just learnt why. i mean rating Greece 3rd overall before the cup.. come on:) i know it is just a group stage, but point or some part of it has just been proven.

Anyway, what the hell is Nick Calathes thinking shooting 8 three pointers? I mean he hit 3 of them, but how many did he miss in the 4th quarter and kept on shooting?

Katastroika
09-03-2019, 02:03 PM
I feel bad for Greece but Brasil deserved it. I have the feeling that Greece will advance by beating the US.

guilherme.rcf
09-03-2019, 02:04 PM
I am too old for this already.

This should be the first time we won a close game like todays ever.

Levenspiel
09-03-2019, 02:06 PM
I never went with the "GREECE IS THE TEAM TO GIVE USA A CHALLENGE" wave.. you guys just learnt why. i mean rating Greece 3rd overall before the cup.. come on:) i know it is just a group stage, but point or some part of it has just been proven.
yeah but are you watching the US?

GreenFan
09-03-2019, 02:08 PM
Damn. Brazil tried really hard to lose the game in the end.

Picek
09-03-2019, 02:09 PM
I am too old for this already.

This should be the first time we won a close game like todays ever.that is why you have Aca trica on the bench.
To win you games like this one.
Brasil executed it’s game plan perfectly. Great defense on Giannis and once greek outside shooting returned to normal they turned the game around.
Varejao with his 36 years schooled entire greek frontcourt.
Best game of the tournament so far, pleasure to watch.

Mr Chacho
09-03-2019, 02:10 PM
Antetokounmpo in FIBA is way less dominant than in NBA. Greece lacks shooters, and Papagiannis is a joke, a 220 cm C must do more.

Aza Petrovic is a great coach, and it's funny to see them speaking spanish with his players. Great years in Caja San Fernando.

guilherme.rcf
09-03-2019, 02:15 PM
that is why you have Aca trica on the bench.
To win you games like this one.
Brasil executed it’s game plan perfectly. Great defense on Giannis and once greek outside shooting returned to normal they turned the game around.
Varejao with his 36 years schooled entire greek frontcourt.
Best game of the tournament so far, pleasure to watch.

True.

I might be wrong, but this was the greatest result of our team in many many years.

Time to keep de focus and play a better game against Montenegro

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 02:35 PM
Antetokounmpo in FIBA is way less dominant than in NBA.
I am wondering whos fault this is. Did the coach fail to find an effective way to integrate Giannis into the gameplay? Or should an NBA MVP also have a solid three and better court vision to find the free man whenever he gets doubled or trippled to create some more assists.

paspalj
09-03-2019, 02:46 PM
Congrats to Brazil, great game plan and execution. Good thing to suffer a loss now and have it act as a lesson :)

Almost 100% of us here knew exactly what the problems of Giannis would be in FIBA basketball. It didnít come as a surprise. What I didnít get is why he didnít play at the post when a (much shorter) player was guarding him.

As for Calathesí 3s...I donít know anymore man. He does the same thing for Panathinaikos and it really pisses me off.

The biggest reason for our loss was our Cís in my opinion. Both offensively and defensively.

Victorious
09-03-2019, 03:02 PM
Congrats to Brazil, great game plan and execution. Good thing to suffer a loss now and have it act as a lesson :)

Almost 100% of us here knew exactly what the problems of Giannis would be in FIBA basketball. It didnít come as a surprise. What I didnít get is why he didnít play at the post when a (much shorter) player was guarding him.

As for Calathesí 3s...I donít know anymore man. He does the same thing for Panathinaikos and it really pisses me off.

The biggest reason for our loss was our Cís in my opinion. Both offensively and defensively.

Nope, Brazil played a great second half and they won due to the fact that the pressure was on Greece. If Greece can manage this loss well, they may have a chance to go through. It seems Brazil, Turkey, USA and Greece can all beat each other.

Italian Pride
09-03-2019, 03:05 PM
Nope, Brazil played a great second half and they won due to the fact that the pressure was on Greece. If Greece can manage this loss well, they may have a chance to go through. It seems Brazil, Turkey, USA and Greece can all beat each other.

You have to win the next 3 games

saras
09-03-2019, 03:06 PM
Trasokunbo is just messing the whole team. Without reliable shoot he is hurting the team. Nowitzki was on a whole another level. He can't and will never make the difference some dreaming of with the nt. Just an athletic guy helping on the def and rebounds. A taller thanasis.
Greece will fight with Turkey for staying alive for qfs. Even though if Brazil wins against Turkey that doesnt matter. We are out anyway. We would have been out already if Turkey didnt choke but whatever

GreenFan
09-03-2019, 03:15 PM
No one:
Absolutely no one:
saras: NBA MVP Giannis Antetokounmpo is messing the team.

paspalj
09-03-2019, 03:18 PM
Nope, Brazil played a great second half and they won due to the fact that the pressure was on Greece. If Greece can manage this loss well, they may have a chance to go through. It seems Brazil, Turkey, USA and Greece can all beat each other.

I don't mean to take anything away from Brazil if that's how it sounded. But the fact is that Varejao was roaming free while Mpourousis/Papagiannis were nowhere to be found. For me, that was the key difference of this particular game.

Saras: I see your calm demeanor, rational thinking, and thoughtful posting also apply to the national team. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts throughout the tournament.

Toruko
09-03-2019, 03:28 PM
I just want to say that i was right with my assumption that fiba bb restricts giannis. He is still a big threat in defense though.

Jon_Koncak
09-03-2019, 03:31 PM
I dont really care but Giannis should only be used as center in FIBA.Yet you have Skourtopoulos,a mediocre to bad greek league coach who changes 2 teams per sason,pairing him with slow dinosaurs like Bourousis and Papagiannis..At one moment he had him as a SF next to Printezis and Bourousis..

saras
09-03-2019, 03:33 PM
No one:
Absolutely no one:
saras: NBA MVP Giannis Antetokounmpo is messing the team.

I dont give a shit if he is the goat. Fiba basketball is another kind of basketball with less space and you have to read defence compared to the nba. Noone will play 1v1 defence on him,like they do in the nba. Thats why he will never help the team the way some people dream of. He is the worst nba all star i have seen playing for a European team all these years. Check nowitzki,Parker,gasol,ginobili,even doncic and others. He is not even near any of them on terms of contribution to national teams competitions.

Are you one of those thinking we were favourites for a medal?

Toruko
09-03-2019, 03:34 PM
Well you must use Giannis on five if you want to use Calathes. Shooting is a big problem of the greeks and they will get exhausted against a fast team more and more during the tournament.

paspalj
09-03-2019, 03:35 PM
I dont really care but Giannis should only be used as center in FIBA.Yet you have Skourtopoulos,a mediocre to bad greek league coach who changes 2 teams per sason,pairing him with slow dinosaurs like Bourousis and Papagiannis..At one moment he had him as a SF next to Printezis and Bourousis..

I don't really know what the optimal utilization of Giannis would be. I guess it would have to depend on who the opponent is. What I mean by this is that you can't use him as a C against a very skillful C.

Greek coaching is a clique by the way. it's always the same x amount of people rotating teams and every y years somebody new will crack the circle :P

Toruko
09-03-2019, 03:38 PM
Utilization of Giannis is easy. You need sharpshooter around him. Give him to team turkey, serbia or italy and you see how he works. :D

Jazz
09-03-2019, 03:42 PM
I dont really care but Giannis should only be used as center in FIBA.Yet you have Skourtopoulos,a mediocre to bad greek league coach who changes 2 teams per sason,pairing him with slow dinosaurs like Bourousis and Papagiannis..At one moment he had him as a SF next to Printezis and Bourousis..

Do you think a time traveller from 2009 would be surprised to see Vasilopoulos at the 2019 World Cup? :D

paspalj
09-03-2019, 03:44 PM
Utilization of Giannis is easy. You need sharpshooter around him. Give him to team turkey, serbia or italy and you see how he works. :D

It's not like we have a bunch of shooters and we didn't pick them :p This is a great problem of greek basketball development in general.

Jon_Koncak
09-03-2019, 03:46 PM
Do you think a time traveller from 2009 would be surprised to see Vasilopoulos at the 2019 World Cup? :D

i'm not surprised by anything anymore.We saw Varejao in 2019 dominating.I remember him from 2002.And Alex Garcia must be the best conditioned athlete of all time.Crazy that he's 39

Toruko
09-03-2019, 03:47 PM
It's not like we have a bunch of shooters and we didn't pick them :p This is a great problem of greek basketball development in general.

Well every nation has its problems. I envy greek basketball for its defense and great guards. This is where we suck

tiro1
09-03-2019, 03:50 PM
Every freaking year the last decade...

soulis79
09-03-2019, 03:53 PM
Now the group has a new boss (Brazil). Congratulations to Brazil! A well deserved victory, even when the score was -17 for them.

Unfortunately today even coach Skourtopoulos, realised that Giannis can't play as a small forward. This cost us
1)the game ,
2) two fouls on him and
3)bench time for the whole third period. This period Brazil ruled the game.

Unfortunately this loss counts and now we have to beat first New Zealand in order to advance, then USA (first match of second round) and finally Turkey or Czech Republic (most likely Turkey) in final game.

Sloukas was the best player today, Printezis looked really fresh and solid and Giannis did the little jobs the time he played.

But wait a minute, today Giannis took only 6 shots, coach used him most of the time as a three then we have to think that this is not working. When Printezis is OK and Bourousis/Papagiannis both sack you have only one option: Giannis on Varejao ,Prinezis on four and P'n'R with Sloukas on offense with Giannis as a screener. We did that only two times, successfully.

In the same time Calathes was a disaster for our team. Bad decisions on offence (two easy passes on Brazil's hands) and mistakes on defence (fast break from Barbosa after a free throw).

turk-jugoslav
09-03-2019, 04:14 PM
I would prefer 35-year-old Pau Gasol over new European stars like Giannis. Pau is unique player at Fiba level, he’s the best ever.

Oly_fan
09-03-2019, 04:53 PM
I am wondering whos fault this is. Did the coach fail to find an effective way to integrate Giannis into the gameplay? Or should an NBA MVP also have a solid three and better court vision to find the free man whenever he gets doubled or trippled to create some more assists.

The coach should have called up, I don't know, Vasileiadis, and leave Calathes in Athens but he's a pupper of the federation and useless.

If -big if- we do advance to the next round, when are the games?

Serbian_Layup
09-03-2019, 06:37 PM
Giannis doesn't seem mentally locked in. I think building a wall against him is not the biggest problem he is facing right now.

HeinrichMohr
09-03-2019, 06:48 PM
I would prefer 35-year-old Pau Gasol over new European stars like Giannis. Pau is unique player at Fiba level, he’s the best ever.

He's 39 already and if Spain qualifies for the olympics and is not injured nor totally broken will play in Tokyo (with 40).

turk-jugoslav
09-03-2019, 07:07 PM
He's 39 already and if Spain qualifies for the olympics and is not injured nor totally broken will play in Tokyo (with 40).

I meant 35-year-old Pau,whose prime past,in Eurobasket 2015 was still better than young and prime Giannis, Jonas, Vucevic and others. There's been nobody like Pau at international events. Event Dirk was not that good at FIBA but has better Nba career.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 07:12 PM
The game against New Zealand will be everything but easy. I dont think that the fast and short Kiwi guards suits us well. I am not sure if I want to watch this game at Thursday.

HeinrichMohr
09-03-2019, 07:13 PM
I meant 35-year-old Pau,whose prime past,in Eurobasket 2015 was still better than young and prime Giannis, Jonas, Vucevic and others. There's been nobody like Pau at international events. Event Dirk was not that good at FIBA but has better Nba career.

Yeah i get it and to be honest even if he's 40 i'd like to see him in the team, not just because he still can contribute from the bench but because of his leadership which can help other younger players.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 07:23 PM
By the way Giannakis was kicked out as national coach in 2008 because he lost the quarter final against Argentina by a 2 points difference having the last posession and Spanoulis missing the three. He has never been called to any role in the federation since then. So how should the federation treat a coach which will fail to qualify for the second group stage at a WC?

Toruko
09-03-2019, 07:25 PM
I want katzikaris back.

Valexander
09-03-2019, 07:41 PM
By the way Giannakis was kicked out as national coach in 2008 because he lost the quarter final against Argentina by a 2 points difference having the last posession and Spanoulis missing the three. He has never been called to any role in the federation since then. So how should the federation treat a coach which will fail to qualify for the second group stage at a WC?

You are one step forward.
Clearly and peacefully, elections now for federation presidency.
Thanks for the good times but it’s not a federation kingdom.
Enough with Missas Skourtopoulos co.
Enough with youth NTs left on their own.
Of course congrats to Brazil but no matter a lack of sharp shooter we are out of top 8, (at least) by Anderson Varejao. That sums up all.
I am not sorry for “us”, mostly for these guys, they deserved better.
It’s the last time someone will consider us as an underachiever. Unfortunately we are not with or w/o Giannis.

Toruko
09-03-2019, 07:48 PM
Everyone is talking about varejao. He had a great game but the game decider was that old man Leandro Barbosa. Never expected him so good after so many injuries broken legs etc. hahahahahhahaha

Oly_fan
09-03-2019, 08:33 PM
By the way Giannakis was kicked out as national coach in 2008 because he lost the quarter final against Argentina by a 2 points difference having the last posession and Spanoulis missing the three. He has never been called to any role in the federation since then. So how should the federation treat a coach which will fail to qualify for the second group stage at a WC?

They will fire him and promote his assistant probably.

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 08:42 PM
They will fire him and promote his assistant probably.

Which one? Kalampokis?

fasoulaki
09-03-2019, 10:32 PM
After rewatching the game I think we lost the match already in the first quarter because Petrovic managed to take Giannis out of the game.

8:43 Giannis penetrates and misses
7:37 Giannis cannot defend Garcia
6:30 Giannis commited almost an offensive foul on Garcia
6:34 Giannis penetrates and 4 Brasilians defended him. He passes out clumsy and valuable seconds get lost.
5:47 Giannis penetrates and three 3 Brasilians defend him. He passes out to Papapetrou who misses the three.
4:40 Giannis bad pass to Kalathis who was penetrating
3:50 Giannis commits an offensive foul.
3:36 bad defense by Giannis and Brasilians hit a three
3:30 Fastbreak Giannis looses the ball after a spin move
2:50 Fastbreak Giannis misses but provokes a foul

I think he could not get along with Garcias defense who is much smaller than him. As a result Giannis was completely alienated and angry. The NBA MVP lost his effectivity completely and became almost useless for his team.
Any other guy would have been benched after lets say the third error. However you cannot bench the MVP so easily. By this means the MVP becomes a burden instead of a support. Amazing and unbelievable.

Toruko
09-03-2019, 10:40 PM
Guys can anyone help me? I want a confirmation about the situation between group e and f.

So after the loss of Greece to Brazil under the circumstances that USA beat both teams.

If turkey loses to brazil Greece is out
if turkey wins against brazil and loses to greece it depends on the difference between 3 teams
is that right?

Buzissa
09-04-2019, 01:28 AM
Didn't see the game. Why did Giannis only take 7 shots?


I dont watch Nba, obviously Jokic and Antetokounmpo have some pretty visible lacks which could exploit opponents .They are players of Nba style , in Europe im not surprised because their problems ..Simply,Antetokounmpo dont has space which does in Nba , but Jokic which has excellent pass in Nba ,that derives from leisureness what also couldnt afford in play with more competitive inclined style .There are team defense who could make exploit their lacks and other lacks of their teammates .

I remember Eurobasket 2011.when Nowitzki played for Germany after Nba title ,Germany didnt qualified neither in quarter-finals ,Nowitzki who was without doubt one of best European player,on this tournament didnt played anything special .Including adjustments on Nba style in Europe and speeding up of play ,still team qualities are more important than individual qualities .

Of course this nonsense had to be brought up.
If you don't watch the NBA, how do you know 'NBA style'?
Also, bringing up Nowitzki is the worse example you could use to build up your argument. Dude was a beast in FIBA tournaments.

Arsonist
09-04-2019, 02:27 AM
Everyone is talking about varejao. He had a great game but the game decider was that old man Leandro Barbosa. Never expected him so good after so many injuries broken legs etc. hahahahahhahaha

If Barbosa was definitely determinant still in the victory of Brazil, I still do not understand why the Warriors let him go if he always performed and towards his job he had about 2 years left in the NBA, as Iguodala continues to do.

EverGreen
09-04-2019, 05:03 AM
Congrats to Brazil. Their win fully deserved though did their utmost to choke at the end.

I said from Acropolis tournament that the 4 talls together will NOT work. They can't run back, they can't pass in offense.

Greece played entire game with only 2 guards. Neither Larentzakis nor Mantzaris took off their tracksuit.

Skourtopoulos is useless as Katsikaris was. They don't know how to use Giannis.

The Bourousis- Varejao match up was a complete disaster. Papagiannis was a little effective but Bourousis was a disaster both in attack and defense.

fasoulaki
09-04-2019, 07:38 AM
Congrats to Brazil. Their win fully deserved though did their utmost to choke at the end.

I said from Acropolis tournament that the 4 talls together will NOT work. They can't run back, they can't pass in offense.

Greece played entire game with only 2 guards. Neither Larentzakis nor Mantzaris took off their tracksuit.

Skourtopoulos is useless as Katsikaris was. They don't know how to use Giannis.

The Bourousis- Varejao match up was a complete disaster. Papagiannis was a little effective but Bourousis was a disaster both in attack and defense.

After rewatching the game very carefully I tend to disagree with you for now regarding Giannis usage by the coaching stuff. Skourtopoulos built his game plan based on the assumption that he has the MVP on his roster. However the MVP seems unable to deliver when he was asked for. If you have a careful look on his body language you realize that he is lost and out of his mind. Maybe he should have been playing more in the first game and the friendlies so that he gets the opportunity to find his rythm. But for now he moves like a snail. Whenever he gets the ball Greece does not get anything valueable out of him but either looses the ball or valuable seconds. The team started rolling in the midth of the 2nd quarter with Giannis having no active role in offense any more and Sloukas, Calathis and Papagiannis on the court.

Howeve I agree with you that Skourtopoulos was not mentally flexible enough to change his game plan when he realized that Giannis does not work out in the first quarter. He should have used a wider rotation giving at least Larentzakis the opportunity to try some drives or field jumpers. But on the other hand if he had left Giannis longer on the bench and still lost the game, he would have faced a lot of criciticism. So as a result in this shape Giannis does not give the coach more options but introduces restrictions on him.

Regarding Bouroussis performance it was expected that he will have problems against Varejao. He always has problems against qualitiy big men apart from Vuicic who is softer than my dead grandmother. At least he tried to make the best out of his restricted potential and created for example a nice assist for Giannis under the rim. In the past Bouroussis has been the reason for Greece to loose games. I remember for example the olympic qualification tournament 2012 in Venezuela with Zourous beeing the coach. Bouroussis made like 10 mistakes in the last quarter and therefore Greece faild to quailify. However in yesterdays game his contribution was not the decisive factor for the loss. It was Giannis performance in the first quarter. If Giannis would have managed to drill some holes in the brasilian defense and managed to get lets say 3 or 4 baskets by ending some nice moves successfully the game's momentum and outcome would have been another one.

Italian Pride
09-04-2019, 07:40 AM
Guys can anyone help me? I want a confirmation about the situation between group e and f.

So after the loss of Greece to Brazil under the circumstances that USA beat both teams.

If turkey loses to brazil Greece is out
if turkey wins against brazil and loses to greece it depends on the difference between 3 teams
is that right?

If.turkey loses to Brasile greece is out if loses against USA yes


Yes if your NT will win against greece you have to see the score differential

saras
09-04-2019, 08:10 AM
unfortunately giannis is just a good defensive athletic tall guy in fiba basketball. not even close on becoming a key factor like nba stars dirk,gasol,ginobili,tony parker,maybe doncic in the future. he was the reason we lost against croatia 3 years ago,he was the reason we lost yesterday. he will have one more shot in the next 10 days to prove us wrong. otherwise greece should reconsider calling him to the team the next years. and create a roster less oriented to a player that cant make the difference on fiba basketball
https://scontent.fath4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/69498285_2437254723228565_5999900430102953984_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQnF98yWrbbWDEhe4n6g2VbpHcgcfEEDOrPzT7-LOvAErUgELffIPTYa96tWzRY13HM&_nc_ht=scontent.fath4-2.fna&oh=41d72c607188a283740b0f3d3ebe6c52&oe=5DFA7329

Killer Bob
09-04-2019, 08:23 AM
It’s really simple. No existing defensive 3 seconds rule combined with smaller court and nearer 3 point line just kills Giannis. No coach can do much about that. He’s very solid supporting player under Fiba rules but no leader of the winning team. The problem for Greeks is that others cannot play much better than yesterday. On the other hand, USA looks incredibly bad too. I see no reason why Greece cannot beat them.

MrRager
09-04-2019, 08:28 AM
I think you underestimate Giannis and he will prove you wrong eventually once he adjusts.

Picek
09-04-2019, 08:37 AM
If Giannis would have managed to drill some holes in the brasilian defense and managed to get lets say 3 or 4 baskets by ending some nice moves successfully the game's momentum and outcome would have been another one.Greece had a momentum in the second quarter and the 17 point lead as a result of that momentum.
and then the defense allowed a 7-0 run for Brasil to close the half and that switched the momentum entirely into Brasil favor and they flew on it in the third.
while the points about Giannis are correct there is still more into it then that.
you have a 17 point lead and you lose the game, why?
serious contender shouldn't allow that so easily.
when the game plan A is not working with Giannis running the show then what is plan B? jacking threes?
playing through centers?
or there is or was no plan B?

don't expect Greece will have problems against New Zealand as they like to run and that will open more space for Giannis to take advantage of his abilities, also tall blacks don't have inside presence like Brasil did or even Alex Garcia for that matter.
also, game against US is not lost. there will also be much more space for Giannis and with him having more space it is easier for the rest of the team to play it's ball game.
but facing european competition will be much tougher task for Greece in the rest of the tournament.
unless Greece comes up with game plan B in the meantime.

ddd13
09-04-2019, 08:46 AM
@fasoulaki I see where you are coming from, however games are not decided in the first quarter. There is where you need a coach to read the game, alter gameplans etc.

See all of Greek attacks when the ball is hot in the 4th quarter. Not only yesterday, but in the friendly with Serbia in Athens a couple of weeks ago. Even 2 years ago in Eurobasket with ďcoachĒ Missas.

Greek team is abandoned from the federal organization. Itís the last years that we will have strong roster but someone decides in the last years and we go without coaching. Itís not overreacting, Missas and Skourtopoulos can never coach even middle to top tier teams in the Greek league. They are extremely low level. Greek players always improvising in the attacking phase, no obvious plays and proper plans.

Itís like having a Ferrari and let a guy with no license to drive it.

We knew we had 3 issues before tournament :

- No natural shooting guard.
- Our centers canít defend
- We have to utilize Giannis the best way possible without having shooters.

How did we approach the above? Especially the issue with Giannis. Instead of building the team around him, we use him as a squad player. Instead of creating space to him, we do the exact opposite.

Utterly disappointed not because we will fail, but because we will fail without seeing the real potential of this team with a proper coach.

Killer Bob
09-04-2019, 08:46 AM
I think you underestimate Giannis and he will prove you wrong eventually once he adjusts.

Adjust to what? Teams will just camp 2 monsters under the rim and his game is neutralized. He will for sure have some good games especially against weaker teams and maybe USA, which looks totally lost in D. But against Serbia, France or similar will be really difficult.

fasoulaki
09-04-2019, 08:50 AM
Greece had a momentum in the second quarter and the 17 point lead as a result of that momentum.
and then the defense allowed a 7-0 run for Brasil to close the half and that switched the momentum entirely into Brasil favor and they flew on it in the third.
while the points about Giannis are correct there is still more into it then that.
you have a 17 point lead and you lose the game, why?
serious contender shouldn't allow that so easily.
when the game plan A is not working with Giannis running the show then what is plan B? jacking threes?
playing through centers?
or there is or was no plan B?

Actually the plan B worked out and therefore we got the 17 points lead during the 2nd quarter. But you are right Greek defense sucked big time at the end of the 2nd and beginning of the 3rd quarter. If I had time I would watch the game again focusing on mistakes in defense during this period of the game.

EDIT: I had a quick look on the end of the 2nd quarter. The problems were not so much on the defensive end but rather in offense. They failed 4 or 5 times in a row to succesfully score points while in defense they denied any brasilian baskets. but at some point it is natural that brasilians will score after the 5th turnover.

fasoulaki
09-04-2019, 09:00 AM
@fasoulaki I see where you are coming from, however games are not decided in the first quarter. There is where you need a coach to read the game, alter gameplans etc.

See all of Greek attacks when the ball is hot in the 4th quarter. Not only yesterday, but in the friendly with Serbia in Athens a couple of weeks ago. Even 2 years ago in Eurobasket with “coach” Missas.

Greek team is abandoned from the federal organization. It’s the last years that we will have strong roster but someone decides in the last years and we go without coaching. It’s not overreacting, Missas and Skourtopoulos can never coach even middle to top tier teams in the Greek league. They are extremely low level. Greek players always improvising in the attacking phase, no obvious plays and proper plans.

It’s like having a Ferrari and let a guy with no license to drive it.

We knew we had 3 issues before tournament :

- No natural shooting guard.
- Our centers can’t defend
- We have to utilize Giannis the best way possible without having shooters.

How did we approach the above? Especially the issue with Giannis. Instead of building the team around him, we use him as a squad player. Instead of creating space to him, we do the exact opposite.

Utterly disappointed not because we will fail, but because we will fail without seeing the real potential of this team with a proper coach.

I agree with you. Usually games are not decided in the first quarter. But things are different if you have the MVP in the roster and the MVP cannot score against a guy which is 50 cm smaller than him. How would you adapt to this if you are the coach? By benching the guy and using another player who can deal with the small guy. But if you bench the MVP you have to bear a lot of pressure as a personality to take this decision. Maybe a high-class coach would have the balls to take this decision.

On the other hand I noticed that in the 4th quarter with 4:56 to play Sloukas made a screen to open space for Giannis and immedialtly Giannis penetrated into the zone. He did not score but at least he drew the foul which shows that if there would be a game plan based on screens for Giannis this would open up the space he needs to create.

As I said I am not 100% sure who has the main responsibility if its the coach or Giannis but at the moment I tend to Giannis who really made many many many silly mistakes in the 1st quarter and also struggled in the 3rd. Overall a rookie's and not an MVP's performance.

Adon
09-04-2019, 10:24 AM
Some people are too eager to accuse and judge, quite unfairly imo. Wait a few days more if you want your aphorisms to gain any gravity at all. No one can be judged just watching a bad performance at one game but by his overall performance and achievement at the end of the tournament.

Killer Bob
09-04-2019, 10:28 AM
Some people are too eager to accuse and judge, quite unfairly imo. Wait a few days more if you want your aphorisms to gain any gravity at all. No one can be judged just watching a bad performance at one game but by his overall performance and achievement at the end of the tournament.

Expectations were/are very high for the MVP. And unfortunately for the Greece, this game can easily prove to be crucial.

Toruko
09-04-2019, 10:32 AM
I think the problem was the attitude "we have the nba regular season mvp". The greek team has its weaknesses and one guy no matter how good he is cant beat a good team. To have Giannis is a bless but greeks will make the biggest mistake just to rely on him in the future. He is a good addition but Greece must also have a plan without him.

Saw calathes desperately trying to find Giannis and it ended in a turnover.

GreenFan
09-04-2019, 10:33 AM
he was the reason we lost against croatia 3 years ago,he was the reason we lost yesterday. he will have one more shot in the next 10 days to prove us wrong. otherwise greece should reconsider calling him to the team the next years. and create a roster less oriented to a player that cant make the difference on fiba basketball


https://projectrisedotco.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/star-trek-facepalm-collection-e1383650553163-580x430.jpg

Srle
09-04-2019, 10:35 AM
I meant 35-year-old Pau,whose prime past,in Eurobasket 2015 was still better than young and prime Giannis, Jonas, Vucevic and others. There's been nobody like Pau at international events. Event Dirk was not that good at FIBA but has better Nba career.

Dirk led his NT to the finals of the Eurobasket in 2005 with the crappy supporting cast, he didn't have much to work with during his NT tenure.

Srle
09-04-2019, 10:36 AM
Yeah i get it and to be honest even if he's 40 i'd like to see him in the team, not just because he still can contribute from the bench but because of his leadership which can help other younger players.

He's done being difference maker .

usagre
09-04-2019, 10:40 AM
Dirk led his NT to the finals of the Eurobasket in 2005 with the crappy supporting cast, he didn't have much to work with during his NT tenure.

And the semifinals of the World championship in 2002.
Have Dirk and Pau swap places and then tell me what it would look like.

Srle
09-04-2019, 10:41 AM
I dont watch Nba, obviously Jokic and Antetokounmpo have some pretty visible lacks which could exploit opponents .They are players of Nba style , in Europe im not surprised because their problems ..Simply,Antetokounmpo dont has space which does in Nba , but Jokic which has excellent pass in Nba ,that derives from leisureness what also couldnt afford in play with more competitive inclined style .There are team defense who could make exploit their lacks and other lacks of their teammates .

I remember Eurobasket 2011.when Nowitzki played for Germany after Nba title ,Germany didnt qualified neither in quarter-finals ,Nowitzki who was without doubt one of best European player,on this tournament didnt played anything special .Including adjustments on Nba style in Europe and speeding up of play ,still team qualities are more important than individual qualities .

Do you even watch Serbian National team :confused: Every time Jokic is on the floor ,Serbia is outscoring their opponents by big margin , Jokic already proved him self with the NT three years ago when he won silver medal at the Olympics , he was the MVP of the qualifying tournament and had very solid role at the Olympics as the fifth option on the team, what the hell you watching anyways :confused:

Srle
09-04-2019, 10:43 AM
And the semifinals of the World championship in 2002.
Have Dirk and Pau swap places and then tell me what it would look like.

I agree.

Victorious
09-04-2019, 11:13 AM
Guys can anyone help me? I want a confirmation about the situation between group e and f.

So after the loss of Greece to Brazil under the circumstances that USA beat both teams.

If turkey loses to brazil Greece is out
if turkey wins against brazil and loses to greece it depends on the difference between 3 teams
is that right?

Provided USA win all the remaining games and Brazil wins against Turkey, both Greece and Turkey are out. The final game beteen Greece and Turkey will be an exhibition game.


That is, if there are no more surprises and both Greece and Turkey win next games and advance.

fasoulaki
09-04-2019, 06:43 PM
he was the reason we lost against croatia 3 years ago
I completely forgot about this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2i_EzkfpU
I am watching it now as a preparation for tomorrow to get in the right mood.

paspalj
09-04-2019, 06:59 PM
I completely forgot about this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2i_EzkfpU
I am watching it now as a preparation for tomorrow to get in the right mood.

Oh man, what an incredible brick by Mantzaris at the end :o

fasoulaki
09-04-2019, 07:06 PM
Holy s.....! Look who I discovered on the bench when Perovic s..... Greece the last time. Now I understand all of Perovics post game trashtalk better. Its something personal.
http://bilder-hochladen.to/hosted/1f5e169a03a64b1f2b0b8bdf13dbb0ab.png

ddd13
09-04-2019, 07:40 PM
I agree with you. Usually games are not decided in the first quarter. But things are different if you have the MVP in the roster and the MVP cannot score against a guy which is 50 cm smaller than him. How would you adapt to this if you are the coach? By benching the guy and using another player who can deal with the small guy. But if you bench the MVP you have to bear a lot of pressure as a personality to take this decision. Maybe a high-class coach would have the balls to take this decision.

On the other hand I noticed that in the 4th quarter with 4:56 to play Sloukas made a screen to open space for Giannis and immedialtly Giannis penetrated into the zone. He did not score but at least he drew the foul which shows that if there would be a game plan based on screens for Giannis this would open up the space he needs to create.

As I said I am not 100% sure who has the main responsibility if its the coach or Giannis but at the moment I tend to Giannis who really made many many many silly mistakes in the 1st quarter and also struggled in the 3rd. Overall a rookie's and not an MVP's performance.

1. If you cannot bench any player (if needed to), you are not a coach that wants the best for the team, you are a puppet.

2. For me MVP says nothing, it is just being the best for one year in regular season. Nevertheless, he is one of the top10 in NBA. That makes him far far far far higher in rank from anyone in Greek team. So, he should be the star, the team should have been built around him. We should have specific plays for him, not one, not two at least 4-5. We should begin our most attacks with him. We have Sloukas and Calathes, in the best 5 of Euroleague last year ( and they don't even play too much together!!!). And we can't see any pick and roll with Giannis. Its so frustrating, its so obvious who has responsibility.

What you said in the 2nd paragraph is to me the key. I remember the moment. Imagine, Sloukas gave the screen! Sloukas. Not Printezis, not Papanikolaou or the center.. Check the highlights, how many times did we do that? Once more .. with Montenegro and we scored. Give him the ball in the top of the key, give him multiple screens to help him get inside with good conditions. And then he can score, win foul, split outside to better positions. I read Ben Simmons the american journalist said the exact same thing, everyone is wondering about the use of the player.

Yes perhaps fault lies with Giannis as well, perhaps he has not adjusted, perhaps it is difficult for him with the zonal defence under the basket, however we will never know! Because we don't base our attacks on him, we don't give him the ball as much. we don't help him with screens and movement. We are static, and we send him to the corners. And we expect to make something special out of nothing, whilst he is not that kind of player. All the above create tension to him as well and he tries too much in defence, making silly fouls etc.

fasoulaki
09-04-2019, 07:56 PM
What you said in the 2nd paragraph is to me the key. I remember the moment. Imagine, Sloukas gave the screen! Sloukas. Not Printezis, not Papanikolaou or the center.. Check the highlights, how many times did we do that? Once more .. with Montenegro and we scored. Give him the ball in the top of the key, give him multiple screens to help him get inside with good conditions. And then he can score, win foul, split outside to better positions. I read Ben Simmons the american journalist said the exact same thing, everyone is wondering about the use of the player.

Yes perhaps fault lies with Giannis as well, perhaps he has not adjusted, perhaps it is difficult for him with the zonal defence under the basket, however we will never know! Because we don't base our attacks on him, we don't give him the ball as much. we don't help him with screens and movement. We are static, and we send him to the corners. And we expect to make something special out of nothing, whilst he is not that kind of player. All the above create tension to him as well and he tries too much in defence, making silly fouls etc.

The coach said he will not change anything. He will stick with what they have worked-on. The game plan was good but the execution failed. He said that for the team Giannis is a player for pick'n'roll, 1-on-1 and to post-up.
Maybe we dont have plays for Gianni in the game systems but its not true that he did not get the ball. In the first quarter he had many opportunities to score but failed. And thats the reason why his teammates decided to not pass him the ball later on. Allthough Skourtopoulos said in every time out that the ball should go to Giannis.

Killer Bob
09-05-2019, 09:09 AM
Provided USA win all the remaining games and Brazil wins against Turkey, both Greece and Turkey are out. The final game beteen Greece and Turkey will be an exhibition game.


That is, if there are no more surprises and both Greece and Turkey win next games and advance.

Czech beating Turkey would be even worse for Greece, because Brazil will have even easies match to win.

Adon
09-05-2019, 10:27 AM
Czech beating Turkey would be even worse for Greece, because Brazil will have even easies match to win.
Easier? I don't think so. Have you watched the game? Very organized, very serious team these Czechs.

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 10:29 AM
Easier? I don't think so. Have you watched the game? Very organized, very serious team these Czechs.

I dont think that Varajeo will have a big problem with the czech big man.

Adon
09-05-2019, 10:30 AM
I dont think that Varajeo will have a big problem with the czech big man.

Erden would be a bigger problem?

Italian Pride
09-05-2019, 10:31 AM
I dont think that Varajeo will have a big problem with the czech big man.

Before Greece have to win today

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 10:33 AM
Before Greece have to win today

Why? We want to play against our neighbours! :cool:

Adon
09-05-2019, 10:34 AM
Before Greece have to win today

If they won't, it would be a great joke, even for us, Greeks :)

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 10:34 AM
If they won't it would be a great joke, even for us, Greeks :)

They will not!

Adon
09-05-2019, 10:37 AM
They will not!

I see you are warming up for the usual bashing :D

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 10:38 AM
I see you are warming up for the usual bashing :D

They same procedure as every year! :D

Adon
09-05-2019, 10:39 AM
They same procedure as every year! :D

At least, we leave the tournaments with some laughs :D

Killer Bob
09-05-2019, 10:40 AM
Easier? I don't think so. Have you watched the game? Very organized, very serious team these Czechs.

to organized for Greece too? ;)

Italian Pride
09-05-2019, 10:41 AM
Why? We want to play against our neighbours! :cool:

But you will play against Canada Abd Senegal, or not?or are you turkish?:D

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 10:41 AM
Or Maybe Skourtopoulos was faking all time long and he will start with Giannis on 1 and all the other guys are outboxing their opponent for Giannis to have space.

Adon
09-05-2019, 10:42 AM
to organized for Greece too? ;)

We don't mind. We will play with the Turks.

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 10:42 AM
But you will play against Canada Abd Senegal, or not?or are you turkish?:D

Shit than we have to qualifiy to the next round.

Victorious
09-05-2019, 11:03 AM
Czech beating Turkey would be even worse for Greece, because Brazil will have even easies match to win.

I would agree with that sentiment. But for now Greece has to win and just hope for the best.

Adon
09-05-2019, 12:33 PM
Bouroysis doesn;t even try to jump. It's frustrating to watch him.

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 12:47 PM
papagiannis is Not playing at all.

Adon
09-05-2019, 12:49 PM
papagiannis is Not playing at all.

He could be more useful than Bourou, that's for sure.

EverGreen
09-05-2019, 12:51 PM
Papanikolaou is complete dogsh*t. Bourousis moves slower than a brontosaurus and Skatopoulos proves he is dumb keeping in Sloukas in the last 3 mins to commit his 3rd foul.

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 12:52 PM
I was especially impressed by the above average defense the greek team played today! Especially Thanassis on Webster worked out perfectly.

Adon
09-05-2019, 01:02 PM
The bad thing, if Greece wins, is that some friends in here will not be happy ;)

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 01:03 PM
Kiwi coach is completely relaxed.

Adon
09-05-2019, 01:07 PM
Papanikolaou is offensively tragic.

Dtown
09-05-2019, 01:26 PM
I feel like all the pressure is on Greece and the longer New Zealand is still in this the more that pressure is going to build.

paspalj
09-05-2019, 01:30 PM
I feel like all the pressure is on Greece and the longer New Zealand is still in this the more that pressure is going to build.

Well that was the case since the beginning :o

It's the first whole game that I watch. It's really unfortunate that at this level of basketball our opponents get away by collapsing in the paint and we have nothing to punish them.

paspalj
09-05-2019, 01:34 PM
Right as I started complaining, shots started to fall :p

Dtown
09-05-2019, 01:34 PM
Well Greece just murdered NZ from three to start the 4th, so I probably spoke too soon.

Adon
09-05-2019, 01:35 PM
Right as I started complaining, shots started to fall :p

Keep on complaining please

saras
09-05-2019, 01:36 PM
100-0 referees in favour of greece. Thats a shame made for commercial reasons due to antetokunbo. I want to apologize to new Zealand fans for fiba idiots that want greece to win tonight no matter what

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 01:40 PM
I hate Basketball.Why I am watching this crap year after year.

paspalj
09-05-2019, 01:41 PM
Keep on complaining please

Ugh, if I stop, NZ starts making everything :p

paspalj
09-05-2019, 02:11 PM
Alright, a win is a win :)

Let's hope we'll be less nervous in the next group phase.

Dtown
09-05-2019, 02:12 PM
Props to New Zealand for the good effort.

Victorious
09-05-2019, 02:16 PM
This is what happens when you play a K.O. game against a crazy shooting team which have nothing to loose and only to gain.

The good thing for Greece is that it won a very important game under extreme pressure. When NZ started loosing the game in the fourth quarter, they started missing free throws. When it was clear that they lost the game they started hitting three pointers again. All about pressure. Greece stayed firm.

soulis79
09-05-2019, 02:18 PM
We were slightly better on the offensive end but on the other side of the court the team was a mess. Game by game we are becoming worse on defence. I see no improvement in this tournament. The good news was Papapetrou perimeter shot, and Thanasis energy. Nothing more.

Toruko
09-05-2019, 02:21 PM
I hate Basketball.Why I am watching this crap year after year.

My words!

Victorious
09-05-2019, 02:21 PM
We were slightly better on the offensive end but on the other side of the court the team was a mess. Game by game we are becoming worse on defence. I see no improvement in this tournament. The good news was Papapetrou perimeter shot, and Thanasis energy. Nothing more.

We really could have used Thanasis' energy. Whenever Greece plays with a short rotation Greece looses.

fasoulaki
09-05-2019, 02:24 PM
At least Giannis played better than yesterday.

Adon
09-05-2019, 02:30 PM
With defense like today, we are going to lose by 20 vs USA.

Adon
09-05-2019, 02:32 PM
My words!

You can cheer for your neighbors and Giannis from now on.

paspalj
09-05-2019, 02:47 PM
With defense like today, we are going to lose by 20 vs USA.

Yeah, if we couldn't stop Webster, I can't see how we will stop someone like Kemba.

Katastroika
09-05-2019, 02:51 PM
I'm happy for the Greek victory. Give them Americans a dance now.

Toruko
09-05-2019, 02:52 PM
You can cheer for your neighbors and Giannis from now on.

I do.

Toruko
09-05-2019, 09:59 PM
Its off topic but imagine Steven Adams in the roster of nz and him and giannis in the paint under fiba conditions. Clash of titans! I saw him against Valenciunas who is a monster and he looked like a U20 player against him.