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CAREY33
07-18-2019, 06:16 PM
For the first and second Group Stage rounds, does anyone know what tiebreakers will be used to determine standings?

Mindozas
07-18-2019, 07:08 PM
For the first and second Group Stage rounds, does anyone know what tiebreakers will be used to determine standings?

The same like always

CAREY33
07-18-2019, 07:30 PM
The same like always


I am unfamiliar what they usually are, would you be able to inform me? Thanks

Mindozas
07-18-2019, 07:36 PM
I am unfamiliar what they usually are, would you be able to inform me? Thanks

How do we determine the ranking between two teams if teams are tied (in the same group or between groups)?:
Win / Loss ratio
Goal difference of games between teams concerned
Higher number of goals in the games between them
Higher goal difference in all games of the group
Higher number of goals in all games in the group
Draw

CAREY33
07-18-2019, 08:21 PM
How do we determine the ranking between two teams if teams are tied (in the same group or between groups)?:
Win / Loss ratio
Goal difference of games between teams concerned
Higher number of goals in the games between them
Higher goal difference in all games of the group
Higher number of goals in all games in the group
Draw

Thank you!

Roofman
07-19-2019, 02:06 AM
In relation to this, I don't understand why FIBA don't use the FIFA (and what is used in most other sports) version of points/goal difference for ALL games as the first tiebreaker. The problem I have with this it is too open to manipulation and you see a relatively few real contests in the preliminary rounds since teams often play half speed in the games that they pre-determine won't greatly affect outcomes. Example of a imaginary Olympic group (I know there are only four teams per group in this WC but the picture is obvious):
USA
Serbia
Greece
Australia
Canada
PR China

Everyone involved in the middle four teams knows that they will probably occupy spots 2-5. So they play against China doing just enough to win comfortably (hopefully) and while wanting to win against the USA, even with the obvious gulf in class, factoring in most opponents use a 7-8 man rotation and tournament management considerations, teams will simply put the cue in the rack once they start to get blown out, none of this of which is good for the spectator, sponsor or tv networks. A simple points for/against for all matches puts this into greater focus.

Mindozas
07-19-2019, 07:06 AM
In relation to this, I don't understand why FIBA don't use the FIFA (and what is used in most other sports) version of points/goal difference for ALL games as the first tiebreaker. The problem I have with this it is too open to manipulation and you see a relatively few real contests in the preliminary rounds since teams often play half speed in the games that they pre-determine won't greatly affect outcomes. Example of a imaginary Olympic group (I know there are only four teams per group in this WC but the picture is obvious):
USA
Serbia
Greece
Australia
Canada
PR China

Everyone involved in the middle four teams knows that they will probably occupy spots 2-5. So they play against China doing just enough to win comfortably (hopefully) and while wanting to win against the USA, even with the obvious gulf in class, factoring in most opponents use a 7-8 man rotation and tournament management considerations, teams will simply put the cue in the rack once they start to get blown out, none of this of which is good for the spectator, sponsor or tv networks. A simple points for/against for all matches puts this into greater focus.

In basketball everything is set the way it should be IMO. Football is lowscoring game, there's a draw too, so goals difference must be up there at the top (even tho UEFA still counts H2H as first tie-breaker). IMO in basketball exactly H2H must decide which team must be ranked higher, not a game against China (like in you example) or other bottom side in a points hunting race. Imagine that you play them first, they are motivated, you win not so easy by some +15pts, then in last round your direct rival, you already have beaten, has to face China which is out of chances, Yi is resting and they are giving away minutes to bench players... Your direct rival, fully motivated, blows them out by needed margin and goes through... a bit unfair, isn't it?

Roofman
07-19-2019, 08:35 AM
@Mindozas, I like the analogy you mentioned about resting players, opponents being like a punchdrunk boxer etc....don't doubt there is some truth there. If I were to make myself clearer, in a two-way tie, I like the idea of head-to-head. When there are three or more opponents involved, I still feel that all results should be factored in, given FIBA are also in the entertainment business, teams, even if undermanned, should play as hard and true as possible and it is in FIBA's interest to see as many real contests as possible. I also believe there is LESS final round manipulation available with all results factored in. So, in Dongguan, Australia v Lithuania is the final group game for both teams, and there is a very real chance that the points spread may determine first round placing in a three way Canada/Aus/Lith tie. Playing last is obviously a huge advantage, and IMO is a bigger issue with FIBA competitions than your (valid) points above.

Hepcat
07-19-2019, 03:55 PM
How do we determine the ranking between two teams if teams are tied (in the same group or between groups)?:

Win / Loss ratio
Goal difference of games between teams concerned
Higher number of goals in the games between them
Higher goal difference in all games of the group
Higher number of goals in all games in the group
Draw

That's for football though. In FIBA play the paramount tie breakers are these:

1. Win/Loss record in the games involving only those teams that are tied in the standings.
2. Point differential in the games involving only those teams that are tied in the standings.

If for example Australia, Canada and Lithuania all finish at 2-1 after the preliminary round robin with Senegal at 0-3, the tie would be broken by points differential in the three games involving Australia, Canada and Lithuania. My understanding is that in any of the games requiring OT to determine the winner, only the tie score after regulation would be used for point differential purposes.

:)

Mindozas
07-19-2019, 04:22 PM
That's for football though. In FIBA play the paramount tie breakers are these:

1. Win/Loss record in the games involving only those teams that are tied in the standings.
2. Point differential in the games involving only those teams that are tied in the standings.

If for example Australia, Canada and Lithuania all finish at 2-1 after the preliminary round robin with Senegal at 0-3, the tie would be broken by points differential in the three games involving Australia, Canada and Lithuania. My understanding is that in any of the games requiring OT to determine the winner, only the tie score after regulation would be used for point differential purposes.

:)

You wrote exactly the same thing I've posted and it's actually from FIBA official rules for this World Cup.... so

CAREY33
07-23-2019, 09:45 PM
Follow up question- Once we get to the second round, do the results from the first round affect tiebreakers used for second round standings?