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Straight forward
03-03-2019, 05:37 PM
Let's do it. I think it's the most fun time to do it. We have all 32 teams.

1. USA. Comments needed? Any combination will make them favourites, but I do think some of it could be in some sort of risk against some teams. We'll see if they will gather superstars.
2. Serbia. Teo might be not as good as he used to be, but Bogdanovic is playing well in NBA, Micic in Euroleague, they will bring back Bjelica and will probably have the best frontline with Jokic, Marjanovic, Milutinov. Personally I don't think they are as talented as Spain used to be, but they belong here.
3. Spain. Still has to go with them if they will gather all team. Pau is getting old and he is done as an elite FIBA force, but I think they are still very good. Heard that even Pau still wants to play, so you can expect both Gasols, Lull, Rodriguez, maybe even Rudy in. Rubio, Mirotic and some younger players expected to play bigger roles. More or less veteran team, but heck of a team.
4. Lithuania. We had a blow with Gudaitis out, but I'm surprised that on the paper we have a really solid unit. Our veterans as Kalnietis, Seibutis, Maciulis are having solid seasons while our younger players stepping up - Valanciunas, Sabonis (arguably the best frontline due, maybe even in entire tournament if USA will get some second rate NBA star bigs...does it make sense? ;)), Kuzminskas, Grigonis are expected to be among the keys. Also we should have solid role players as Lekavicius, Ulanovas to make our team pretty deep and solid. It's a tough call between Lithuania and France/Greece/Australia, but I found us more predictable and rock solid while other teams have to many questions regarding the roster. We have a history to overachieve with much less talented rosters.
5. Greece. If Giannis in, they probably should even be higher. He says he will be in, but till he didn't come and showed it, I don't want to put Greece to high which facing some problems with deepness of the roster.
6. France. Tough, because on the paper they have such a good team with de Colo, Fournier, Batum, Gobert, but always lacking something and if some youngsters won't surprise, I think will lack something again.
7. Australia. We already discussed, they have a lot of quality and tons of NBA players who might be leaded by Simmons. But will they gather all? And some players already getting old - Bogut is done, Mills and Dellavedova is not getting better, Ingles probably as well. So Simmons and young players should step up. Too many questions at the moment, IMO, but might be one of the best teams.
8. Canada. Some Canadian and American posters are probably shocked, but as of yet I don't see them higher. They have to prove they learned how to play coherent FIBA basketball, instead of looking at the roster's names. Plenty of NBA talents, some really good talents playing abroad, but they should stick first and to play high arc basketball.
9. Russia. Shed can ball, Karasev can ball, some solid players, pretty balanced roster. Yet not the best defensive team and very emotional team. They should gather some momentum going for them, a bit unpredictable team, IMO, but I surely want to see them among top 9.

To be honest, that's my top 9 teams. After that it's tough...

10. Italy. They always have talent, but also lacking discipline, defence. If they will gather all roster, they should be among top 10, IMO.
11. Turkey.
12. Germany.
13. Czech Republic.
14. Brazil. I think simply aged. Can players like Caboclo, Raul Neto lift them? I doubt.
15. Argentina.
16. Montenegro.
17. China. Too low? No idea how good they are these days, but somewhere in the middle I think.
18. Poland.
19. Dominican Republic. Here's the thing. If Karl-Anthony Towns and Al Horford will play, they should be higher, but I doubt we'll see them both.
20. Puerto Rico.
21. Angola.
22. New Zealand.
23. Japan.
24. Nigeria.
25. Senegal.
26. Philippines.
27. Venezuela.
28. Tunisia.
29. Iran.
30. Korea.
31. Cote d'Ivoire
32. Jordan.

Please correct me with a button teams, because there's plenty of posters who knows Asia's, South America's and Africa's markets much better than I do.

usagre
03-03-2019, 09:21 PM
If Canada sends these 9 as their core rotation they can be a medalist in my opinion.

C. Joseph. /. Gilgeous-Alexander
J. Murray
A. Wiggins/. Stauskas
K. Olynyk /. D. Powell
T. Thompson / T. Lyles

madmax
03-03-2019, 09:44 PM
There's always a "big IF" with teams like Canada and Australia and when it comes to them assembling a competitive FIBA squad. There's one thing playing a free flowing open court NBA basketball and a totally different ball game when it comes to grind it out physical and tactical FIBA war of attrition...

usagre
03-03-2019, 09:52 PM
There's always a "big IF" with teams like Canada and Australia and when it comes to them assembling a competitive FIBA squad. There's one thing playing a free flowing open court NBA basketball and a totally different ball game when it comes to grind it out physical and tactical FIBA war of attrition...

I think that narrative is a bit overstated when it comes to Canada. They were good in ‘15 and blew the Venezuela game and did well in ‘16 beating Turkey but losing to a loaded French team. And those squads were way less talented than now.

And Australia sent its most talented squad ever in ‘16 and did great in that tournament reaching the semis.

madmax
03-03-2019, 10:04 PM
I think that narrative is a bit overstated when it comes to Canada. They were good in ‘15 and blew the Venezuela game and did well in ‘16 beating Turkey but losing to a loaded French team. And those squads were way less talented than now.

Could be.
But I always take upcoming talented teams with a grain of salt until they prove me otherwise and actually show that they can compete as solid units on the world stage and beat established powerhouses first...I know what teams like France, Serbia, Spain and Lithuania can do when the push comes to shove. I still don't know what a team like Canada is made of - they haven't shown ahything on the world stage yet. Talent is only one side of the coin, but you need much more than that to be successful in FIBA basketball:cool:

Dtown
03-03-2019, 10:06 PM
Provided Rui Hachimura plays I'd put Japan as the best team in Asia (obviously not counting the Oceania teams)

usagre
03-03-2019, 11:45 PM
You can pretty much eliminate more than half of the initial 35 players named in the USA pool.

Victor Oladipo, and John Wall due to injury.

Cousins, Anthony Davis, Durant, Kyrie, Kawhi, Khris Middleton, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler due to contract situations.

Stephen Curry, LeBron, Harden and Westbrook and Paul George, using history as a guide. This caliber of player doesn’t participate in this tournament unless it’s early in their careers.

usagre
03-04-2019, 12:22 AM
Team USA might look something like this :

Damian Lillard. / Mike Conley
Bradley Beal. /. Donovan Mitchell. / Devin Booker
DeMar DeRozan. /. CJ. McCollum
Blake Griffin /. Jayson Tatum
LaMarcus Aldridge. /. Andre Drummond
/. Myles Turner

usagre
03-04-2019, 02:19 AM
Talent is only one side of the coin, but you need much more than that to be successful in FIBA basketball:cool:

I think that argument was more suitable 10-15 years ago. Today the FIba and NBA games are as similar as they have ever been. (No post play and 3 point shot emphasis) The NBA players bring more athleticism. I think a talented team like that can adjust just fine.

reamily
03-04-2019, 02:25 AM
I wouldn't say that we are last but on the list I think anyone on the field can beat our team. For the past years our team started to adapt the "Morey ball" offense is least of my concern but our defensive schemes is something really needs to improve on. For all wc teams who will be playing tuneup with us please use 2-3 zone so that we will be routed and so we will be forced to make strategy playing against zone.

mojo13
03-04-2019, 04:10 AM
Opinions on specific rankings are pretty meaningless until we see the rosters. Greece with no Giannis? Serbia with no Jokic? I’d just stick with tiers until we know more about rosters.

NBA players have had a pretty poor turnout rate the last few years too, so who really know what Australia and Canada will show up with? Both country’s talent pools are top 4 in my opinion, but that doesn’t matter if guys don’t show up. Don’t underestimate the pressure NBA clubs and agents on putting on guys to not play FIBA nowadays.
Giannis with a deep playoff run? Jokic too with all his little injuries and history of not playing. Gobert too? The Gasols at their age?- anyone this there is more than a 50/50 chance of any of these guys playing?



Without knowing rosters I’d tier them up like this:

Tier 1:
USA

Tier 2:
Australia
Canada
France
Greece
Lithuania
Serbia
Spain

Tier 3:
Russia
Italy
Turkey
Germany
Czech Republic
Brazil
Argentina.
Montenegro

Tier 4
Poland
Dominican Rebublic
Puerto Rico
Venezuela
New Zealand
China

Tier 5:
Angola
Japan
Nigeria
Senegal
Philippines.
Tunisia
Iran
Korea.
Cote d'Ivoire
Jordan

mojo13
03-04-2019, 04:57 AM
You can pretty much eliminate more than half of the initial 35 players named in the USA pool.

Victor Oladipo, and John Wall due to injury.

Cousins, Anthony Davis, Durant, Kyrie, Kawhi, Khris Middleton, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler due to contract situations.

Stephen Curry, LeBron, Harden and Westbrook and Paul George, using history as a guide. This caliber of player doesn’t participate in this tournament unless it’s early in their careers.



It is a late summer tournament - do you think the contract issues will be much of a concern? Most guys should be signed by mid to late July. It could still impact some hold outs or give guys joining new teams some hesitation but I haven’t written off this summer’s free agents at all.

ja.he
03-04-2019, 05:29 AM
we are still trying to convince fiba to let jordan clarkson play for the team. i think having dray and clarkson, philippines will be a better team than atleast 10 teams even against japan with hachimura, watanabe and fazekas.

okanial
03-04-2019, 10:41 AM
US is once again clear favourites. Tier 2 is Serbia/Spain/Australia/Canada. I think only this teams have a chance to beat US. Lithuania/Greece with Giannis (without it I would rank them much lower)/France are one step below. I do agree general assessment of Turkey. We are in 9/12 range along with Russia, Italy and Germany. Some groups will be much tougher than the others due to the region spesific draw things. Canada will be on the same group with one of the good European second tier teams which will make that group an instant death group unless China is the first seed there.

Straight forward
03-04-2019, 12:39 PM
If Canada sends these 9 as their core rotation they can be a medalist in my opinion.
C. Joseph. /. Gilgeous-Alexander
J. Murray
A. Wiggins/. Stauskas
K. Olynyk /. D. Powell
T. Thompson / T. Lyles

So you're thinking Alexander is better than Pangos? IMO, if Canada has any brain in their organisation as NT Pangos should be a strong rotation player. He's one of few Canada's players who understand FIBA basketball and I do believe the difference is still pretty obvious. FIBA courts are more tight and it's easier here to make a team defence being felt. I believe that Pangos could be one of these players who could teach couple of things Canada needs to know if they want to establish as a contender. Otherwise, Canada really will have to wait till their talent pool will be equal to USA talent wise to contend, IMO, because even USA had to have their own school in 00's.


Team USA might look something like this :
Damian Lillard. / Mike Conley
Bradley Beal. /. Donovan Mitchell. / Devin Booker
DeMar DeRozan. /. CJ. McCollum
Blake Griffin /. Jayson Tatum
LaMarcus Aldridge. /. Andre Drummond
/. Myles Turner

And this team will probably bomb all oppositions with three point shooting. Too many good shooters to have a lot of hopes, but if some teams would slow down USA shooting, it would be interesting because this team basically have zero post game. A bit of Drummond maybe, but other than that, mid range fade away jumpers goes all the way.



NBA players have had a pretty poor turnout rate the last few years too, so who really know what Australia and Canada will show up with? Both country’s talent pools are top 4 in my opinion, but that doesn’t matter if guys don’t show up. Don’t underestimate the pressure NBA clubs and agents on putting on guys to not play FIBA nowadays.
Giannis with a deep playoff run? Jokic too with all his little injuries and history of not playing. Gobert too? The Gasols at their age?- anyone this there is more than a 50/50 chance of any of these guys playing?


That's why I started to like Lithuania's chances better than I did in the summer f.e Generally I agree that purely best roster wise, it goes something like that - USA, SERBIA, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, FRANCE, SPAIN and probably GREECE with Giannis. But Lithuania has the guaranteed core and the best team culture in the world a long with Serbia and Spain. 90% of best players will be there, unless injuries. That's why I put Lithuania higher that France, Greece, Australia.


I think that argument was more suitable 10-15 years ago. Today the FIba and NBA games are as similar as they have ever been. (No post play and 3 point shot emphasis) The NBA players bring more athleticism. I think a talented team like that can adjust just fine.

Off course, you right, but one things is for sure. You'll see a lot of post game in Lithuania's matches if we will have both JV and Sabonis :) It will be interesting to see how this will work, I hope we won't overdo with it, because it seems like declining type of basketball. We shouldn't forget to run pick and roll within the flow and I believe our most effective line-up will be with Sabonis - Kuzminskas - Ulanovas - Grigonis - Lekavicius as an open court 5, playing aggressive transition basketball, putting Sabonis in Jokic's shoes when team is forced to play half court basketball.

Steadysoul
03-04-2019, 03:31 PM
You can pretty much eliminate more than half of the initial 35 players named in the USA pool.

Victor Oladipo, and John Wall due to injury.

Cousins, Anthony Davis, Durant, Kyrie, Kawhi, Khris Middleton, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler due to contract situations.

Stephen Curry, LeBron, Harden and Westbrook and Paul George, using history as a guide. This caliber of player doesn’t participate in this tournament unless it’s early in their careers.

The Event is so late in the summer that it's pushing back the start of the season. If those contracts get worked out early they may not be an issue at all.

Steadysoul
03-04-2019, 03:33 PM
Opinions on specific rankings are pretty meaningless until we see the rosters. Greece with no Giannis? Serbia with no Jokic? I’d just stick with tiers until we know more about rosters.

NBA players have had a pretty poor turnout rate the last few years too, so who really know what Australia and Canada will show up with? Both country’s talent pools are top 4 in my opinion, but that doesn’t matter if guys don’t show up. Don’t underestimate the pressure NBA clubs and agents on putting on guys to not play FIBA nowadays.
Giannis with a deep playoff run? Jokic too with all his little injuries and history of not playing. Gobert too? The Gasols at their age?- anyone this there is more than a 50/50 chance of any of these guys playing?



Without knowing rosters I’d tier them up like this:

Tier 1:
USA

Tier 2:
Australia
Canada
France
Greece
Lithuania
Serbia
Spain

Tier 3:
Russia
Italy
Turkey
Germany
Czech Republic
Brazil
Argentina.
Montenegro

Tier 4
Poland
Dominican Rebublic
Puerto Rico
Venezuela
New Zealand
China

Tier 5:
Angola
Japan
Nigeria
Senegal
Philippines.
Tunisia
Iran
Korea.
Cote d'Ivoire
Jordan

We should probably wait until we see how they do before putting Canada so high up. It's all based of potential. Lets see some actual success first.

mojo13
03-04-2019, 04:11 PM
We should probably wait until we see how they do before putting Canada so high up. It's all based of potential. Lets see some actual success first.

I’m fairly confident. I’ve seen Canada enough over the years.
We mowed through the 2015 FIBA America’s by 20-40 point margins only to choke with a super young team versus Venezuela. That was a much lesser team than we will likely be this summer. The core guys are so much more experienced.
We cruised through the Olympic qualfier only to fall a little short against a strong French team. Also handled a number of secondary euro teams in warm up games like Italy, Croatia and Slovenia. Again that was a much lesser team than we can floor this summer.
We had a few nba players show up last summer for the WC qualifiers and beat Brazil quite easily. Really the teams were on two different levels. And even without NBA we crushed Brazil in Brazil this past December.

And I am pretty sure we will have 2 to 4 European based players as we understand what they bring to the table with fiba experience and we know not all 13 nba players will show up or are even the best players. Depending on roster mix we will see a few of Kevin Pangos, Melvin Ejim, Kyle Wiltjer, Phil Scrubb, Tommy Scrubbor Brady Heslip.

I don’t think anyone really knows about Canada and I expect anything from a medal to missing the quarterfinals. Depends on who shows up, chemistry, draw, matchups etc. I’d rather we not bring in NBA guys who don’t know the team or system as well like Trey Lyles or maybe even Andrew Wiggins.

usagre
03-04-2019, 04:49 PM
The Event is so late in the summer that it's pushing back the start of the season. If those contracts get worked out early they may not be an issue at all.

That might open the door for guys like Middleton, Kemba, and Tobias Harris but you can forget about Kawhi, A.D., Kyrie and Durant. That quality of player at their stage of their careers never participates in the Worlds, only Olympics.

usagre
03-04-2019, 05:17 PM
I’d rather we not bring in NBA guys who don’t know the team or system as well like Trey Lyles or maybe even Andrew Wiggins.

There’s not really a team or system to know. Your top available players (Joseph, Murray, Wiggins, Olynyk and Thompson) have never really played as a unit together anyway. Thompson and Joseph were on ‘16 team but not other 3, and Joseph, Wiggins, Olynyk were on ‘15 team but not other 2. Also consider that they were all a lot younger players three and four years ago. You’re starting from scratch with your best possible team. There’s a camp, exhibition games and preliminary games in order to build a team that can make a deep run.

mojo13
03-04-2019, 08:31 PM
There’s not really a team or system to know. Your top available players (Joseph, Murray, Wiggins, Olynyk and Thompson) have never really played as a unit together anyway. Thompson and Joseph were on ‘16 team but not other 3, and Joseph, Wiggins, Olynyk were on ‘15 team but not other 2. Also consider that they were all a lot younger players three and four years ago. You’re starting from scratch with your best possible team. There’s a camp, exhibition games and preliminary games in order to build a team that can make a deep run.

I disagree. TKelly Olynyk, Dwight Powell, Cory Joseph, Tristan Thompson, Khem Birch and Dillon Brooks have been very involved the last few years. That’s the core to draw on with the Qualfier core of Ejim, Pangos, the Scrubb brothers, Wiltjer, Heslip etc.
Jamal Murray, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, RJ Barrett, Chris Boucher have all played with the senior team at least once in the last couple years and should be familiar with the coaches, system and team mates. But yes, not everyone has played together all at once recently.

Wiggins and Stauskas have not played since 2015 and Trey Lyles has never played at the senior level.


last summer I believe we had Joesph, Olynyk, Powell, Birch, Thompson, Brooks, Pangos and Barrett all together - so that’s a good start. We are behind other countries but not starting from scratch. Management has been trying to put a consistent system in place for a half decade now at least. Last summer Chris Boucher didn’t make the team as the coaches said he hadn’t had enough time with the program to know their system. It’s also why some other NBA player probably won’t be missed (like Wiggins, Lyles or Stauskas) and we could be better off with Euro pros more FA
familiar with the program.
To me Jamal Murray is a such a key piece and my main worry about deciding to not play or not being familiar enough if he does play. I’m sort of indifferent in Wiggins plays.

ja.he
03-05-2019, 12:56 PM
If Canada sends these 9 as their core rotation they can be a medalist in my opinion.

C. Joseph. /. Gilgeous-Alexander
J. Murray
A. Wiggins/. Stauskas
K. Olynyk /. D. Powell
T. Thompson / T. Lyles

No Barrett? The guy is a projected lottery pick in nba together with Zion and he can be a good prospect for Canada because of his potential and youthfulness.

Steadysoul
03-05-2019, 01:54 PM
No Barrett? The guy is a projected lottery pick in nba together with Zion and he can be a good prospect for Canada because of his potential and youthfulness.

Rookies don't usually participate and considering how late in the summer it is I would not be shocked if it overlapped with Summer league.

Straight forward
03-05-2019, 02:06 PM
Rookies don't usually participate and considering how late in the summer it is I would not be shocked if it overlapped with Summer league.

And he's a kid never seen real PRO basketball, LOL.

mojo13
03-05-2019, 03:56 PM
And he's a kid never seen real PRO basketball, LOL.

Although I agree with your point and Steadysoul above - RJ Barrett played for Canada in a qualifier window and looked fine starting on a team with NBA players. He put up 14 and 15 points vs USVI and DR.

I don’t think he will play (but you never know as he is so tied to the system - his dad is the GM)
Regardless he could deserve to be there. I’d rather, go with a season euro vet, but the average idiot fan in Canada thinks RJ is already the best Canadian player. How quickly they forget Wiggins and Anthony Bennett.

But to laugh him off seems shortsighted. What other country wouldn’t promote the reigning u19 MVP and top 3 NBA draft pick to their senior team? If only as a role player? Not many I would guess.

mojo13
03-05-2019, 06:05 PM
If Canada sends these 9 as their core rotation they can be a medalist in my opinion.

C. Joseph. /. Gilgeous-Alexander
J. Murray
A. Wiggins/. Stauskas
K. Olynyk /. D. Powell
T. Thompson / T. Lyles


Usagre - here is my opinion on the most likely Canadian roster. There is a core group of guys that have been heavily involved over the last three years, that I think we can count on assuming no injuries or contract disputes. Then there are some of the younger guys that seem 50-50 due to stage of career and/or contracts and then a few who I am doubtful about due to recent history.

Very Likely - all guys who have played or participated in camps multiple times over the last few years and are vocally supportive of Team Canada on social media and/or publicly said they intend to play:

Cory Joseph - is a FA this summer. Should be signed in time.
Dillon Brooks - But is currently dealing with a season ending foot injury and uncertain if he will play. Should be healed by June, but who know if he is ready for the WC or the Grizzlies want him to play. Also a FA.
Tristan Thompson
Kelly Olynyk
Dwight Powell
Khem Birch - Will be a FA this summer.
Chris Boucher

And the foreign pros:
Melvin Ejim
Kevin Pangos
Kyle Wiltjer
Phil Scrubb
Thomas Scrubb
Brady Heslip

I am fairly sure most of these guys should be available, barring injuries. The bulk of the roster will come from this, supplemented by a few of the guys below.


50/50 - guys I am not certain about. The desire to play seems there (all publicly shown support), but other circumstances can easily prevent it:

Jamal Murray - poor participation the last couple years (lots of small little injuries in the offseason), but publicly said he wants to play. I am still skeptical because of his contract situation - still on his rookie deal and a big, big one is coming up.
Nik Stauskas - Hasn't played since 2015, but a couple months ago publicly said he wants to play this summer. Will be a FA and is hanging onto the NBA by a thread.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander - played in the Olympic Qualifier in 2016, said he wants to play in the WC but I hear the Clippers usually push against their players playing.
RJ Barrett - as a NBA rookie, I'm not sure he plays, but he is very tied into Team Canada.
Tyler Ennis - recovering from a very bad leg injury


Probably not, but you never know:
Andrew Wiggins - not sure he is interested or if the others guys even want him there.
Trey Lyles - Has not ever played for the SMNT.
Andrew Nicholson - Strangely didn't play in any Qualifier window when guys in China did seem available, but I think he was at camp last summer.
Also doubtful any of this years other likely NBA draft picks play (Brandon Clarke, Nickeil Alexander Walker or Luguentz Dort).


And there is a huge pool of other foreign pros, or G-league guys who have been involved that would be too impact but could be a role player. Joel Anthony, Anthony Bennett, Xavier Rathan Mayes, Aaron Best, Naz Mitrou Long, Conor Morgan etc.


So in summary - I think we will be fine up front, but am concerned a little about our guards as there is more uncertainty there. But I do think we will see 3-4 euro pros playing....most likely Kevin Pangos, Phil Scrubb and Melvin Ejim.

Still...the time commitment is going to be a big ask. Every country is going to be looking at probably, a five- or six-week commitment – a week, at least, of a camp, an exhibition schedule, a week of games and acclimation on the other side of the world and more than two weeks of the tournament itself. That’s a huge time commitment, the most asked by many countries in a number of years so I still question how many NBA guys will show up (for any country).

Straight forward
03-10-2019, 04:19 PM
But to laugh him off seems shortsighted. What other country wouldn’t promote the reigning u19 MVP and top 3 NBA draft pick to their senior team? If only as a role player? Not many I would guess.

OK, it's fair. But the history shows that be it top NBA draft pick or not such young players make little if any impact at A international tournaments. There are exceptions like Sabonis. I guess Doncic could do it as well. But even look at USA dream team, the team with some nearly supernatural talents...even 19yo Lebron made little impact in 2004.

On other hand, you right. Only few countries now can to claim having a generational talents. It's USA with Zion, Slovenia with Doncic and Canada with Barrett. It's interesting that USA went with really young players only in 2004 (19yo Lebron) and 2012 (19yo Davis). Other than that, youngest players were 22 or even 24 like in 2016 team. USA has been short of generational talents since Davis. Now they might got one with Zion.

Steadysoul
03-10-2019, 08:21 PM
So I looked it up. NBA Summer League starts July 5 and ends July 15. The WC starts August 31st.

ja.he
03-11-2019, 05:21 AM
are we going to see an all-nba canadian team?

looking at canadians in nba today, that's wiggins, murray, joseph, olynyk, thompson, lyles, birch, brooks, boucher, gilgeous-alexander, hanlan, stauskas, powell, ennis. you can field a canadian team loaded with nba talents. i think it has the potential to compete or even beat team usa.

Straight forward
03-11-2019, 11:29 AM
are we going to see an all-nba canadian team?

looking at canadians in nba today, that's wiggins, murray, joseph, olynyk, thompson, lyles, birch, brooks, boucher, gilgeous-alexander, hanlan, stauskas, powell, ennis. you can field a canadian team loaded with nba talents. i think it has the potential to compete or even beat team usa.

I think mojo13 commented this question nicely. Please read above.

ja.he
03-11-2019, 12:51 PM
I think mojo13 commented this question nicely. Please read above.

well, i had read mojo's comment before i post. from the looks of it, only brooks and ennis are the only ones that are really impossible to participate in this year's world cup due to injuries. if canada is really willing to win it all, they should do something to persuade their best players to play for them. as for stauskas, this world cup will be his audition to impress his nba team of what his capable of. is he still with the cavs?

Prancūzėlis_ZLD
03-11-2019, 01:21 PM
if canada is really willing to win it all, they should do something to persuade their best players to play for them.
If talking aboust their best individual players, then there is almost no chance to see Andrew Wiggins. However it should probably be seen as a good thing for Team Canada in the end

Shawshank
03-11-2019, 04:34 PM
tier 1 USA doesnt matter even they dont bring their top 10 of their player,they still would be huge favourites

tier 2 Serbia and Spain tallent and winner mentality (very hard to beat them in playoffs)

tier 3 Australia,France,Lithuania,Greece

tier 4 all others and basically they have no shot for medal (unless some cinderrella story)


As Olympics 2016 shown USa,Spain,Serbia,Australia is top 4 teams at second part of 10s.


from tier 3 i believe Australia as 2016 olympics shown can put team closest to Serbia and Spain,but they lack strong minded players,tallent is there,experience is there,but something with them its seems they cant win the most crusial game .But on just ok day for them they can beat anybody except for Usa.



I dont trust Canada at all i see them not even making top 8.They have zero experience in fiba game tournaments,but tallent they can put is scary ...I would give teams like Argentina or Russia more chances than Canada in WC 2019.You are not comming with zero experience and starting winning playoofs games in fiba tournaments.

France as always tallent pool is scary,but they will miss leadership from Parker and Diaw they had for like 15 years...those 2 was critical in putting all that tallent in right places.


Lithuania and Greece (with Giannis) can be very dangerous in playoofs if teams chemistry goes well for them.

mojo13
03-11-2019, 11:00 PM
well, i had read mojo's comment before i post. from the looks of it, only brooks and ennis are the only ones that are really impossible to participate in this year's world cup due to injuries. if canada is really willing to win it all, they should do something to persuade their best players to play for them. as for stauskas, this world cup will be his audition to impress his nba team of what his capable of. is he still with the cavs?

Nik Stauskas is still with the Cavs (barely). But I am not sure he is any more important to Canada than Kevin Pangos or even Phil Scrubb. The only thing he has on Kevin Pangos is he is 6'6 and can play some SF for Canada (our weakest position) and why I hope he plays. And both Dillon Brooks and Tyler Ennis are not definitely out for Canada, they should be healed up by earlier summer and could be ready to play in the WC (if that is a wise move coming back from injury is another question). Ennis is not a top 12 player for Canada but Brooks sure is and I hope he can play. Brooks looks like a very good FIBA fit as well, Ennis not so much as he is a below average shooter.

And we have been doing something since 2014 to get the NBA players to play starting with new management including Steve Nash. I think we have pretty decent commitment and buy-in, but the NBA players (all countries NBA players) are under heavy external pressures to not play FIBA. We wont get them all of course but we will be ok. We had the most NBA player participation of any country during the qualifiers but likely that's because we have the most (besides the US).

reamily
03-12-2019, 04:56 AM
@Straightforward We're very humbled to be in the top 5 asia-pacific team in your power ranking where imo we are 9th(we're just lucky that lebanon had tougher matchups) False sense of progress as we tagged blatche as the hero of our qualification where it was Ricardo ratliffe hehe. Reality is we are better team in the 4th, 5th window, its just us Filipinos as a basketball nation cannot accept not seeing the team in world cup.

We already have big men that can compete in this level even without Blatche. We just wait for them to grow while they are in us ncaa division 1. Still no pressure for Kai Sotto to accelerate development and go straight to China as I still put AJ Edu and Quentin Millora brown as "more ready" at the moment.

Italian Pride
03-14-2019, 10:38 PM
Let's do it. I think it's the most fun time to do it. We have all 32 teams.

1. USA. Comments needed? Any combination will make them favourites, but I do think some of it could be in some sort of risk against some teams. We'll see if they will gather superstars.
2. Serbia. Teo might be not as good as he used to be, but Bogdanovic is playing well in NBA, Micic in Euroleague, they will bring back Bjelica and will probably have the best frontline with Jokic, Marjanovic, Milutinov. Personally I don't think they are as talented as Spain used to be, but they belong here.
3. Spain. Still has to go with them if they will gather all team. Pau is getting old and he is done as an elite FIBA force, but I think they are still very good. Heard that even Pau still wants to play, so you can expect both Gasols, Lull, Rodriguez, maybe even Rudy in. Rubio, Mirotic and some younger players expected to play bigger roles. More or less veteran team, but heck of a team.
4. Lithuania. We had a blow with Gudaitis out, but I'm surprised that on the paper we have a really solid unit. Our veterans as Kalnietis, Seibutis, Maciulis are having solid seasons while our younger players stepping up - Valanciunas, Sabonis (arguably the best frontline due, maybe even in entire tournament if USA will get some second rate NBA star bigs...does it make sense? ;)), Kuzminskas, Grigonis are expected to be among the keys. Also we should have solid role players as Lekavicius, Ulanovas to make our team pretty deep and solid. It's a tough call between Lithuania and France/Greece/Australia, but I found us more predictable and rock solid while other teams have to many questions regarding the roster. We have a history to overachieve with much less talented rosters.
5. Greece. If Giannis in, they probably should even be higher. He says he will be in, but till he didn't come and showed it, I don't want to put Greece to high which facing some problems with deepness of the roster.
6. France. Tough, because on the paper they have such a good team with de Colo, Fournier, Batum, Gobert, but always lacking something and if some youngsters won't surprise, I think will lack something again.
7. Australia. We already discussed, they have a lot of quality and tons of NBA players who might be leaded by Simmons. But will they gather all? And some players already getting old - Bogut is done, Mills and Dellavedova is not getting better, Ingles probably as well. So Simmons and young players should step up. Too many questions at the moment, IMO, but might be one of the best teams.
8. Canada. Some Canadian and American posters are probably shocked, but as of yet I don't see them higher. They have to prove they learned how to play coherent FIBA basketball, instead of looking at the roster's names. Plenty of NBA talents, some really good talents playing abroad, but they should stick first and to play high arc basketball.
9. Russia. Shed can ball, Karasev can ball, some solid players, pretty balanced roster. Yet not the best defensive team and very emotional team. They should gather some momentum going for them, a bit unpredictable team, IMO, but I surely want to see them among top 9.

To be honest, that's my top 9 teams. After that it's tough...

10. Italy. They always have talent, but also lacking discipline, defence. If they will gather all roster, they should be among top 10, IMO.
11. Turkey.
12. Germany.
13. Czech Republic.
14. Brazil. I think simply aged. Can players like Caboclo, Raul Neto lift them? I doubt.
15. Argentina.
16. Montenegro.
17. China. Too low? No idea how good they are these days, but somewhere in the middle I think.
18. Poland.
19. Dominican Republic. Here's the thing. If Karl-Anthony Towns and Al Horford will play, they should be higher, but I doubt we'll see them both.
20. Puerto Rico.
21. Angola.
22. New Zealand.
23. Japan.
24. Nigeria.
25. Senegal.
26. Philippines.
27. Venezuela.
28. Tunisia.
29. Iran.
30. Korea.
31. Cote d'Ivoire
32. Jordan.

Please correct me with a button teams, because there's plenty of posters who knows Asia's, South America's and Africa's markets much better than I do.

Why this hype for greece?OK calathes,giannis and koufous?then?printezis is boiled,spanoulis is retired,they have a poor talented guards rotation,few points in the hands of their guards

I think even Italy with di Vincenzo and Brooks together(ike greece with calathes and koufoys) NBA players,Hackett,melli,datome,della valle and gentile could be better than them,despite the absence of a true big man

I think greece is a 9-16 ranking like my country,not more

usagre
03-14-2019, 11:17 PM
Why this hype for greece?OK calathes,giannis and koufous?then?printezis is boiled,spanoulis is retired,they have a poor talented guards rotation,few points in the hands of their guards

I think even Italy with di Vincenzo and Brooks together(ike greece with calathes and koufoys) NBA players,Hackett,melli,datome,della valle and gentile could be better than them,despite the absence of a true big man

I think greece is a 9-16 ranking like my country,not more

You can’t just mention Giannis in passing. He’s gonna win the MVP in the NBA this year. You can probably name the better players than him in the world in one hand. And don’t make the mistake of thinking he’s the same player we saw in FIBA three years ago either. Yeah the players around him aren’t great because if they were Greece would be right there with Spain and Serbia but they are not as bad as you make them out to be. Sloukas that you failed to mention is a good player as well.

If Giannis plays I think Greece is in the 4-6 range team on paper.

Italian Pride
03-14-2019, 11:36 PM
You can’t just mention Giannis in passing. He’s gonna win the MVP in the NBA this year. You can probably name the better players than him in the world in one hand. And don’t make the mistake of thinking he’s the same player we saw in FIBA three years ago either. Yeah the players around him aren’t great because if they were Greece would be right there with Spain and Serbia but they are not as bad as you make them out to be. Sloukas that you failed to mention is a good player as well.

If Giannis plays I think Greece is in the 4-6 range team on paper.

you're right,i had forgotten sloukas

ok giannis is a freak,one of the best 10 players of the next FWC,but he has a great liability in the 3 pt shot,so in the fiba basketball could be a great lackness for his game without 3 second

i think an hypotethical starting 5 like this: Calathes-Sloukas-Papanikolau-Giannis-Koufous is very strong phisically and great effort on the defensive side,but it could be very problematic in the offense with the spacing,only sloukas is a true shooter,other 3 playesr are poor shooters,so this is one reason that make me doubt about real potential of this team

definitely i think usa,australia,canada,france,serbia,spain,lithuania are better than them

ja.he
03-15-2019, 12:27 AM
Let's do it. I think it's the most fun time to do it. We have all 32 teams.

1. USA. Comments needed? Any combination will make them favourites, but I do think some of it could be in some sort of risk against some teams. We'll see if they will gather superstars.
2. Serbia. Teo might be not as good as he used to be, but Bogdanovic is playing well in NBA, Micic in Euroleague, they will bring back Bjelica and will probably have the best frontline with Jokic, Marjanovic, Milutinov. Personally I don't think they are as talented as Spain used to be, but they belong here.
3. Spain. Still has to go with them if they will gather all team. Pau is getting old and he is done as an elite FIBA force, but I think they are still very good. Heard that even Pau still wants to play, so you can expect both Gasols, Lull, Rodriguez, maybe even Rudy in. Rubio, Mirotic and some younger players expected to play bigger roles. More or less veteran team, but heck of a team.
4. Lithuania. We had a blow with Gudaitis out, but I'm surprised that on the paper we have a really solid unit. Our veterans as Kalnietis, Seibutis, Maciulis are having solid seasons while our younger players stepping up - Valanciunas, Sabonis (arguably the best frontline due, maybe even in entire tournament if USA will get some second rate NBA star bigs...does it make sense? ;)), Kuzminskas, Grigonis are expected to be among the keys. Also we should have solid role players as Lekavicius, Ulanovas to make our team pretty deep and solid. It's a tough call between Lithuania and France/Greece/Australia, but I found us more predictable and rock solid while other teams have to many questions regarding the roster. We have a history to overachieve with much less talented rosters.
5. Greece. If Giannis in, they probably should even be higher. He says he will be in, but till he didn't come and showed it, I don't want to put Greece to high which facing some problems with deepness of the roster.
6. France. Tough, because on the paper they have such a good team with de Colo, Fournier, Batum, Gobert, but always lacking something and if some youngsters won't surprise, I think will lack something again.
7. Australia. We already discussed, they have a lot of quality and tons of NBA players who might be leaded by Simmons. But will they gather all? And some players already getting old - Bogut is done, Mills and Dellavedova is not getting better, Ingles probably as well. So Simmons and young players should step up. Too many questions at the moment, IMO, but might be one of the best teams.
8. Canada. Some Canadian and American posters are probably shocked, but as of yet I don't see them higher. They have to prove they learned how to play coherent FIBA basketball, instead of looking at the roster's names. Plenty of NBA talents, some really good talents playing abroad, but they should stick first and to play high arc basketball.
9. Russia. Shed can ball, Karasev can ball, some solid players, pretty balanced roster. Yet not the best defensive team and very emotional team. They should gather some momentum going for them, a bit unpredictable team, IMO, but I surely want to see them among top 9.

To be honest, that's my top 9 teams. After that it's tough...

10. Italy. They always have talent, but also lacking discipline, defence. If they will gather all roster, they should be among top 10, IMO.
11. Turkey.
12. Germany.
13. Czech Republic.
14. Brazil. I think simply aged. Can players like Caboclo, Raul Neto lift them? I doubt.
15. Argentina.
16. Montenegro.
17. China. Too low? No idea how good they are these days, but somewhere in the middle I think.
18. Poland.
19. Dominican Republic. Here's the thing. If Karl-Anthony Towns and Al Horford will play, they should be higher, but I doubt we'll see them both.
20. Puerto Rico.
21. Angola.
22. New Zealand.
23. Japan.
24. Nigeria.
25. Senegal.
26. Philippines.
27. Venezuela.
28. Tunisia.
29. Iran.
30. Korea.
31. Cote d'Ivoire
32. Jordan.

Please correct me with a button teams, because there's plenty of posters who knows Asia's, South America's and Africa's markets much better than I do.

well, philippines is still lobbying clarkson's inclusion to the team. i know this is still a long shot, but if we get him, we'll probably make to the top 20. and we'll get better than puerto rico, angola, new zealand, japan, nigeria and senegal. another good addition for us are the D1 players remy martin and aj edu.

So probably, blatche, edu, norwood, clarkson, martin, castro, aguilar, fajardo, rosario, pogoy, lee, lassiter will be our best line up this august.

Italian Pride
03-15-2019, 12:54 AM
well, philippines is still lobbying clarkson's inclusion to the team. i know this is still a long shot, but if we get him, we'll probably make to the top 20. and we'll get better than puerto rico, angola, new zealand, japan, nigeria and senegal. another good addition for us are the D1 players remy martin and aj edu.

So probably, blatche, edu, norwood, clarkson, martin, castro, aguilar, fajardo, rosario, pogoy, lee, lassiter will be our best line up this august.

Sorry,but in what way could you include clarkson?

ja.he
03-15-2019, 01:11 AM
Sorry,but in what way could you include clarkson?

well, jordan clarkson has a filipino mother. her mother, in fact, was born and lived here in her childhood before she and her family migrated abroad. she is the one that introduced jordan clarkson to the philippines. also, clarkson family are actually very active in filipino community in the us. clarkson and his father always like to represent the philippines if the opportunity comes. he already did in asian games. now, they want to be with the team in this year's world cup.

his mother also wants him to represent nothing but the philippines.

the things we should hurdle before getting him is his passport issue. it is said that he already got his passport at the age of 12 but that is still in contention. another thing is his cleveland cavs. will he allow him to play there?

okanial
03-15-2019, 12:54 PM
well, jordan clarkson has a filipino mother. her mother, in fact, was born and lived here in her childhood before she and her family migrated abroad. she is the one that introduced jordan clarkson to the philippines. also, clarkson family are actually very active in filipino community in the us. clarkson and his father always like to represent the philippines if the opportunity comes. he already did in asian games. now, they want to be with the team in this year's world cup.

his mother also wants him to represent nothing but the philippines.

the things we should hurdle before getting him is his passport issue. it is said that he already got his passport at the age of 12 but that is still in contention. another thing is his cleveland cavs. will he allow him to play there?

She doesnt need to be scared of Clarkson representing USA. That is never gonna happen

ja.he
03-15-2019, 01:01 PM
She doesnt need to be scared of Clarkson representing USA. That is never gonna happen

I know that. That team USA is so stack you look at their pool. Any combination can be a team a player. Look at the coaching staff, pop is the head coach and Kerr as the assistant. That will be spurs and warriors game in the mix.

Well, I hope clarkson gets cleared in time by fiba. What i am trying to say there is that her mother is not forgetting the place of her birth and it’s an honor.

mojo13
03-15-2019, 04:21 PM
I know that. That team USA is so stack you look at their pool. Any combination can be a team a player. Look at the coaching staff, pop is the head coach and Kerr as the assistant. That will be spurs and warriors game in the mix.

Well, I hope clarkson gets cleared in time by fiba. What i am trying to say there is that her mother is not forgetting the place of her birth and it’s an honor.

So far there has been no proof provided that Clarkson received a Philippines passport before age 16. Thus he is considered naturalized - problem is so is the merc Blatche and you cant have both unless the Philippines can $uccessfully lobby FIBA. Blatche is probably more valuable than Clarkson wouldn't you think? A quality bigman is harder to find for the Philippines than an inefficient scoring guard right?

Victorious
03-17-2019, 01:38 PM
Based on suspected full rosters:

1. USA
2. Spain
3. France (Aside from USA, deepest roster together with Spain)
4. Serbia
5. Australia (Amazing team at the last Olympics)
6. Greece (Chemistry will be important, but with Giannis on the team I can not rank them lower thank the fourth team in Europe).
7. Lithuania (if you ask me they have over performed in the last decade due to excellent chemistry, but this was not always the case. So I picked a balanced position)
8. Canada (Have not beaten any of the above teams yet)
9. Germany (Germany seems to be on the rise judging from recent tournaments)
10.Italy ( lacks depth, but first 5 can be dangerous)
11.Brazil (decent rooster)
12.Argentina
13.Turkey (Struggling new generation lacks depth and misses Enes Kanter)
14. New Zealand
15. Nigeria
16. Puerto Rico
17. China (home court)

Rodrigue Beaubois
03-20-2019, 08:16 AM
Based on suspected full rosters:

1. USA
2. Spain
3. France (Aside from USA, deepest roster together with Spain)
4. Serbia
5. Australia (Amazing team at the last Olympics)
6. Greece (Chemistry will be important, but with Giannis on the team I can not rank them lower thank the fourth team in Europe).
7. Lithuania (if you ask me they have over performed in the last decade due to excellent chemistry, but this was not always the case. So I picked a balanced position)
8. Canada (Have not beaten any of the above teams yet)
9. Germany (Germany seems to be on the rise judging from recent tournaments)
10.Italy ( lacks depth, but first 5 can be dangerous)
11.Brazil (decent rooster)
12.Argentina
13.Turkey (Struggling new generation lacks depth and misses Enes Kanter)
14. New Zealand
15. Nigeria
16. Puerto Rico
17. China (home court)

I honestly don't know how you can put any team except USA in front of Serbia, if every team has a full roster. Expected full roster for Serbia is something like this:

PG Teodosic, Micic, Jovic
SG Bogdanovic, Nedovic, Milosavljevic/Guduric
SF Kalinic, Lucic
PF Bjelica
C Jokic, Milutinov, Marjanovic

This team is stacked.

Italian Pride
03-20-2019, 02:06 PM
I honestly don't know how you can put any team except USA in front of Serbia, if every team has a full roster. Expected full roster for Serbia is something like this:

PG Teodosic, Micic, Jovic
SG Bogdanovic, Nedovic, Milosavljevic/Guduric
SF Kalinic, Lucic
PF Bjelica
C Jokic, Milutinov, Marjanovic

This team is stacked.

With this roster jovic will ne 11th e milutinov 12 th

Only USA has this deep

Their bench players would play in the starting 5 of 28-30 team in the next FIBA world cup

I m pretty sure that nedovic ,micic and jovic would play like starter in lithuania team and micic also in french team in my opinion

Only in spain ,USA and Serbia they would not have a main role in the Foster

2nd starting 5 of Serbia could be:

Micic-Nedovic-Guduric-Lucic-Marjanovic

4 EL players and one NBA players

My personal ranking

1 USA
2 Serbia
3 spain(with gasols ,llull and chacho)
4Australia(if ben Simmons and bogut join they will be a very balanced team,with great wings like Simmons,ingles ,two big man like baynes and bogut and very good guards like della vedova and Patty mills)
5 Canada(with full roster they could be alsoLithuaniadium,bit chemistry is a great doubt with this NT)
6 Lithuania
7 France
8Greece/Italy/Turkey/Germany/Russia are more or less on the same level

okanial
03-20-2019, 07:50 PM
Based on suspected full rosters:

1. USA
2. Spain
3. France (Aside from USA, deepest roster together with Spain)
4. Serbia
5. Australia (Amazing team at the last Olympics)
6. Greece (Chemistry will be important, but with Giannis on the team I can not rank them lower thank the fourth team in Europe).
7. Lithuania (if you ask me they have over performed in the last decade due to excellent chemistry, but this was not always the case. So I picked a balanced position)
8. Canada (Have not beaten any of the above teams yet)
9. Germany (Germany seems to be on the rise judging from recent tournaments)
10.Italy ( lacks depth, but first 5 can be dangerous)
11.Brazil (decent rooster)
12.Argentina
13.Turkey (Struggling new generation lacks depth and misses Enes Kanter)
14. New Zealand
15. Nigeria
16. Puerto Rico
17. China (home court)

We are not missing Kanter at this point considering we never had him to begin with. I liked how we played in last European chapmionship and now we have a much better Osman a slightly better Korkmaz and a little worse Ilyasova which makes the team still better.

Efesdxb
03-21-2019, 08:09 AM
We are not missing Kanter at this point considering we never had him to begin with. I liked how we played in last European chapmionship and now we have a much better Osman a slightly better Korkmaz and a little worse Ilyasova which makes the team still better.

Ersan is much better than previous years. Don't look at the stats only. He can now play 5 and we have lot of flexibility.

okanial
03-21-2019, 04:14 PM
Ersan is much better than previous years. Don't look at the stats only. He can now play 5 and we have lot of flexibility.

Not looking at stats and I like him at 5. But he seems kinda slower.

I think biggest problem for us is for the first time we have a good offensive team and a mediocre defensive team. We always succeeded with our defense before. It will be interesting to see how we cope with that. Wilbekin-Mahmutoğlu-Korkmaz-Osman-Ilyasova five is really good offensively but really bad defensivly and I think that will be our main 5

Efesdxb
03-21-2019, 10:10 PM
Not looking at stats and I like him at 5. But he seems kinda slower.

I think biggest problem for us is for the first time we have a good offensive team and a mediocre defensive team. We always succeeded with our defense before. It will be interesting to see how we cope with that. Wilbekin-Mahmutoğlu-Korkmaz-Osman-Ilyasova five is really good offensively but really bad defensivly and I think that will be our main 5

Probably we will start Wilbekin-Melih/Furkan-Cedi-Ersan-Semih. We'd better talk about our defensive strength after roster announced.
My roster would be:

Wilbekin-Dogus-Kartal
Furkan-Melih
Cedi-Tolga
Ersan-Berkan-Metecan
Semih-Sertac

Victorious
03-21-2019, 11:27 PM
We are not missing Kanter at this point considering we never had him to begin with. I liked how we played in last European chapmionship and now we have a much better Osman a slightly better Korkmaz and a little worse Ilyasova which makes the team still better.

Korkmaz is playing for the Development league. Usually players are a disappointment when they come back to Europe from that league. He would have developed more playing for Efes or Darussafaka. I remember Turkey being more stacked at every position. Asik was a beast under the rim. The new guys do not compensate for that. Kanter is the most successful player of the new generation and desperately needed. He should have been part of the team. Regardless of his political convictions or whether he believes in UFO's.

okanial
03-22-2019, 04:23 PM
Korkmaz is playing for the Development league. Usually players are a disappointment when they come back to Europe from that league. He would have developed more playing for Efes or Darussafaka. I remember Turkey being more stacked at every position. Asik was a beast under the rim. The new guys do not compensate for that. Kanter is the most successful player of the new generation and desperately needed. He should have been part of the team. Regardless of his political convictions or whether he believes in UFO's.


Probably we will start Wilbekin-Melih/Furkan-Cedi-Ersan-Semih. We'd better talk about our defensive strength after roster announced.
My roster would be:

Wilbekin-Dogus-Kartal
Furkan-Melih
Cedi-Tolga
Ersan-Berkan-Metecan
Semih-Sertac

Id try to include ÷mer Faruk or Egemen GŁven instead of SertaÁ. Other than that maybe Kartal can be replaced with Berk depends which one is better at the moment.

Korkmaz is not playing in the development league he is injured. Before the injury he was playing okay but in 6ers he had a tough time to shine. I think he will stay in NBA most teams would like a cheap young guy with upside. Cavs can be a good destination for him tbh. And Cedi is a much better talent than Kanter. I wish we had him, or Aşık but missing Cedi would hurt much more than an old school center since we have Erden who always outperforms in tournaments and can use Ersan at 5

Efesdxb
03-22-2019, 07:40 PM
Id try to include ÷mer Faruk or Egemen GŁven instead of SertaÁ. Other than that maybe Kartal can be replaced with Berk depends which one is better at the moment.

Korkmaz is not playing in the development league he is injured. Before the injury he was playing okay but in 6ers he had a tough time to shine. I think he will stay in NBA most teams would like a cheap young guy with upside. Cavs can be a good destination for him tbh. And Cedi is a much better talent than Kanter. I wish we had him, or Aşık but missing Cedi would hurt much more than an old school center since we have Erden who always outperforms in tournaments and can use Ersan at 5

As far as I know Omer Faruk Yurtseven didn't play a single competitive game due to changing university last summer. He moved from North Carolina State to Georgetown.
That's why he might not be on the roster. Otherwise he would be my choice as well.

Steadysoul
03-26-2019, 03:53 PM
Truthfully the rankings don't really matter that much. What does matter is who will actually qualify for the olympics.

micko
05-01-2019, 01:16 PM
if everyone plays, including Giannis, Jokic, Marjanovic, Wiggins, RJ Barrett, T.Thompson, B.Simmons, Bogut, Gobert, both Gasols... it will be something like this, imho:
1. USA
2. Greece
3. Serbia
4. Canada
5. Australia
6. Lithuania
7. France
8. Spain
9. Germany
10. Turkey

mojo13
05-01-2019, 04:13 PM
if everyone plays, including Giannis, Jokic, Marjanovic, Wiggins, RJ Barrett, T.Thompson, B.Simmons, Bogut, Gobert, both Gasols... it will be something like this, imho:
1. USA
2. Greece
3. Serbia
4. Canada
5. Australia
6. Lithuania
7. France
8. Spain
9. Germany
10. Turkey


I'm following the Canadian and Australian media fairly closely.

The main Australian writers are very skeptical that Ben Simmons will play, but the rest of their 13 odd NBA players all seem ready and willing to play (except Dante Exum who is injured). The chance to play the USA on home soil has to be a big draw for players - word is they may get 90,000 crowds per game.

With Canada we still feel Andrew Wiggins is unlikely. Toronto media asked him directly a few weeks ago if he was going to play - and the best he could say is that "he is open to it". I'd peg it at a 30% chance that he plays but I'm personally am not worried about it as he could hurt the team more than help. We think Trey Lyles is very unlikely as well (but he is not in my top 5 bigs anyways). Dillon Brooks is uncertain due to injury (but possible). RJ Barrett is still questionable due to rookie commitments, but if he can find a way to play he will (he is very tied into Canada Basketball). And the rest all seem to have indicated they want to play. We have a number of unrestricted free agents like Cory Joseph and Nik Stuaskas (and a RFA in Khem Birch) - but with the late summer start hopefully they are cleared up by then. Any time someone changes teams it puts some added risk into the mix. The key players for Canada are Jamal Murray, Kelly Olynyk, Shai Gilgeous Alexander, Dwight Powell, Cory Joseph, Khem Birch and Tristan Thompson who all seem to want to play.

Roofman
05-02-2019, 02:03 AM
To Mojo

I have been following things fairly carefully especially in the Aus, but also in other international media, including the Canadian media occasionally. Before addressing line ups, don't you think it is strange that both teams are playing teams in their pool before the real event.... ? In soccer/football it is considered unacceptable to do so. Basically both teams will play hard, but try to avoid showing their cards before the main show, which would aid Lithuania and other opponents...Fwiw, this is a hard lesson Australia learnt during the Barry Barnes era of the 1990s, when they would lose to the same opponents in the Worlds after beating them in the Goodwill Games. Brett Brown was an Australian assistant at that time, there was an article some years ago on this, can't be bothered finding this, bottom line, read comparatively little into results of friendlies/exhibition games.

Speaking of coaching, what is the Canadian situation with your men's NT coach? I feel that building a NT and have a coach impose his style/team rules/system takes a lot longer in NT play than at club level. This is why I feel Roy Rana would be your best bet right now, compared to say Herbert, Scott Morrison or a Euro/NBA person with links to Canadian basketball. At least Roy did the job in the qualifiers, should get the call for the real thing. Also, (and I know this has been covered in some of your other threads before), but surely internationally experienced players including Wiltjier, Pangos and the Scrubb brothers better fill roles than some of the role playing NBA bretheren above...?

As for Australia, virtually all NBA players want to play for the NT. Simmons hasn't played for the NT since being a 17 year old in 2013, although I get the feeling that he would like to play. He has a contract re-negotiation coming up, although a September start shouldn't preclude him from camp. He was pissed some years ago about getting cut from the 2014 team from current coach Lemanis, although insiders mentioned that he was absolutely banged around in practice and not in a position to help then. Hopefully he has gotten over himself, while I hear Larry Kestleman (Australian NBL owner) will pay for his insurance and maybe other little benefits if he agrees to play. A wrinkle here is that Kestleman's negotiated the Aus/USA series and with exclusive media rights, has a vested interest in Simmons playing.

As for the team on court, I feel that Simmons would essentially need to play as a mobile 5, who would handle the ball a lot, especially in transition, which is where the biggest mismatches are and also considering most of Australia's key players (Mills, Dellavedova, Ingles, Broekhoff) are at the guard and small forward positions. According to Lemanis and other team insiders (Luc Longley, Mich Downer), there will definitely be a need for Brock Motum, Mitch Creek and Australian NBL players to perform specific roles, often at the expense of NBA players. Nick Kay (all NBL first team), Nathan Sobey and Mitch McCarron come to mind here.

In terms of selection and coaching, probably the biggest issue facing Australia Simmons or no Simmons is the role of the bigs. Expect Aron Baynes to start or at least play significant minutes every game. Bogut too has shown that, properly rested, he is not yet a corpse and can help for say 10 mins a game, although pairing him with Simmons, were this to happen, would be a stretch. That leaves Motum, Creek (who plays bigger than his 197cms), and some collection of say, Thon Maker, Jonah Bolden, the aforementioned Kay and other NBL prospects. According to many, Kay is more polished than Maker and Bolden now, but putting myself in the coaches shoes, I feel one of Maker or Bolden at least will be selected to give the team some X-factor it otherwise might lack. This is a coaching challenge too, because Lemanis, while I feel a competent coach, takes considerable time to build a team (witness him at club level with NZ Breakers and Brisbane where some said he could have been fired earlier in his tenure), and integrating players who haven't played qualifiers may mean Australia take a step back in the short term with projects, for longer gain gain.

mojo13
05-02-2019, 05:36 AM
To Mojo

I have been following things fairly carefully especially in the Aus, but also in other international media, including the Canadian media occasionally. Before addressing line ups, don't you think it is strange that both teams are playing teams in their pool before the real event.... ? In soccer/football it is considered unacceptable to do so. Basically both teams will play hard, but try to avoid showing their cards before the main show, which would aid Lithuania and other opponents...Fwiw, this is a hard lesson Australia learnt during the Barry Barnes era of the 1990s, when they would lose to the same opponents in the Worlds after beating them in the Goodwill Games. Brett Brown was an Australian assistant at that time, there was an article some years ago on this, can't be bothered finding this, bottom line, read comparatively little into results of friendlies/exhibition games.

Speaking of coaching, what is the Canadian situation with your men's NT coach? I feel that building a NT and have a coach impose his style/team rules/system takes a lot longer in NT play than at club level. This is why I feel Roy Rana would be your best bet right now, compared to say Herbert, Scott Morrison or a Euro/NBA person with links to Canadian basketball. At least Roy did the job in the qualifiers, should get the call for the real thing. Also, (and I know this has been covered in some of your other threads before), but surely internationally experienced players including Wiltjier, Pangos and the Scrubb brothers better fill roles than some of the role playing NBA bretheren above...?

As for Australia, virtually all NBA players want to play for the NT. Simmons hasn't played for the NT since being a 17 year old in 2013, although I get the feeling that he would like to play. He has a contract re-negotiation coming up, although a September start shouldn't preclude him from camp. He was pissed some years ago about getting cut from the 2014 team from current coach Lemanis, although insiders mentioned that he was absolutely banged around in practice and not in a position to help then. Hopefully he has gotten over himself, while I hear Larry Kestleman (Australian NBL owner) will pay for his insurance and maybe other little benefits if he agrees to play. A wrinkle here is that Kestleman's negotiated the Aus/USA series and with exclusive media rights, has a vested interest in Simmons playing.

As for the team on court, I feel that Simmons would essentially need to play as a mobile 5, who would handle the ball a lot, especially in transition, which is where the biggest mismatches are and also considering most of Australia's key players (Mills, Dellavedova, Ingles, Broekhoff) are at the guard and small forward positions. According to Lemanis and other team insiders (Luc Longley, Mich Downer), there will definitely be a need for Brock Motum, Mitch Creek and Australian NBL players to perform specific roles, often at the expense of NBA players. Nick Kay (all NBL first team), Nathan Sobey and Mitch McCarron come to mind here.

In terms of selection and coaching, probably the biggest issue facing Australia Simmons or no Simmons is the role of the bigs. Expect Aron Baynes to start or at least play significant minutes every game. Bogut too has shown that, properly rested, he is not yet a corpse and can help for say 10 mins a game, although pairing him with Simmons, were this to happen, would be a stretch. That leaves Motum, Creek (who plays bigger than his 197cms), and some collection of say, Thon Maker, Jonah Bolden, the aforementioned Kay and other NBL prospects. According to many, Kay is more polished than Maker and Bolden now, but putting myself in the coaches shoes, I feel one of Maker or Bolden at least will be selected to give the team some X-factor it otherwise might lack. This is a coaching challenge too, because Lemanis, while I feel a competent coach, takes considerable time to build a team (witness him at club level with NZ Breakers and Brisbane where some said he could have been fired earlier in his tenure), and integrating players who haven't played qualifiers may mean Australia take a step back in the short term with projects, for longer gain gain.

Thanks for the detailed insight, this is great. My commentary on Simmons comes from seeing Olgun Uluc (Fox Sports AU) and Damien Arsenis (Pick and Roll) mention a few times they thought it was very unlikely he’d play.

I heard the Australia v Canada exhibition was set up well before the pools were drawn and something Canada and Australia were trying to do for years. Maybe a commonwealth thing? Despite drawing into the same pool they decided to go through with it. I assume there was good money involved especially with the amount of NBA talent involved.

I was really thinking Roy Rana would be named coach by now for the reasons you described above. Most fans I interact with are still hoping so, but this delay in naming a coach really has me concerned. I’m not hearing any other names right now. But also haven’t heard a thing in a few weeks now.

I absolutely think we will have 3-5 of our top Euro pros on this team filling in crucial rolls around a core of 6-8 NBA players. And as you said they may well be more valuable than end of the bench NBA guys.
Melvin Ejim is an virtual lock as a very versatile undersized big who can play some wing. He’s been excellent for Canada whenever he’s played over the last 5 years. After that it will depend on the role needed, but the most likely candidates are Kevin Pangos, Tommy Scrubb, Phil Scrubb, Kyle Wiltjer and maybe Brady Heslip.
Andrew Nicholson is out there as well but we are deep at the 4. Tyler Ennis would be in the mix at PG but his severe injury with Fener probably keeps him out. Dylan Ennis is another I’d like to see involved but he hasnt the last few years and it might be too late at this point. We had 35 guys play in the Qualfiers so there are a slew of others that could sneak in to fill a role, but it Is highly like it will be the guys mentioned above.

Steadysoul
05-02-2019, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the detailed insight, this is great. My commentary on Simmons comes from seeing Olgun Uluc (Fox Sports AU) and Damien Arsenis (Pick and Roll) mention a few times they thought it was very unlikely he’d play.

I heard the Australia v Canada exhibition was set up well before the pools were drawn and something Canada and Australia were trying to do for years. Maybe a commonwealth thing? Despite drawing into the same pool they decided to go through with it. I assume there was good money involved especially with the amount of NBA talent involved.

I was really thinking Roy Rana would be named coach by now for the reasons you described above. Most fans I interact with are still hoping so, but this delay in naming a coach really has me concerned. I’m not hearing any other names right now. But also haven’t heard a thing in a few weeks now.

I absolutely think we will have 3-5 of our top Euro pros on this team filling in crucial rolls around a core of 6-8 NBA players. And as you said they may well be more valuable than end of the bench NBA guys.
Melvin Ejim is an virtual lock as a very versatile undersized big who can play some wing. He’s been excellent for Canada whenever he’s played over the last 5 years. After that it will depend on the role needed, but the most likely candidates are Kevin Pangos, Tommy Scrubb, Phil Scrubb, Kyle Wiltjer and maybe Brady Heslip.
Andrew Nicholson is out there as well but we are deep at the 4. Tyler Ennis would be in the mix at PG but his severe injury with Fener probably keeps him out. Dylan Ennis is another I’d like to see involved but he hasnt the last few years and it might be too late at this point. We had 35 guys play in the Qualfiers so there are a slew of others that could sneak in to fill a role, but it Is highly like it will be the guys mentioned above.

What is the deal with Canada and this Coach search?
I swear there was a self imposed deadline like 3 weeks ago. I would have assumed they would have picked someone by the end of the NBA regular season so they could hit the ground running in terms of reaching out to players.

mojo13
05-03-2019, 04:37 PM
What is the deal with Canada and this Coach search?
I swear there was a self imposed deadline like 3 weeks ago. I would have assumed they would have picked someone by the end of the NBA regular season so they could hit the ground running in terms of reaching out to players.

I really don't know. There was allot of talk about in about a month ago - with a few of the old guard media raising a stink and writing articles critical about how Canada Basketball treated Jay Triano (they were personal friends with Triano). But since then we have not heard a word on how the search is going.
Why they just don't name Roy Rana is beyond me. Personally at the very least I think Rana is involved as an assistant coach and he is Ok either way as head coach or an assistant.

Rowan Barrett (GM) and Glen Grunwald (President) are out pounding the pavement talking to all the players and have been for some time so I am not too worried about that. But who knows, if they come up with a weird Euro coach that no one knows (or likes), perhaps it could turn some guys off. I think the coach is a little less important here - this is more about managing NBA talent, giving the best players the freedom to play and not screwing it up by over-coaching. They all seem to like Roy Rana and he is a capable tactical coach so why not roll with him?

usagre
05-03-2019, 04:47 PM
I think the coach is a little less important here - this is more about managing NBA talent, giving the best players the freedom to play and not screwing it up by over-coaching.

Such a great point. When you’re talking about elite level talent, coaching x’s and o’s takes a back seat in importance.
If at full strength you can count the number of teams more talented than Canada on one hand. It’s all about getting them to commit and participate. Canada is probably waiting to get a better idea of what this team’s composition will be before deciding on the coach. If there are major absences, then I believe you go in one coaching direction as opposed to if the top guys commit.

Steadysoul
05-04-2019, 06:23 PM
I really don't know. There was allot of talk about in about a month ago - with a few of the old guard media raising a stink and writing articles critical about how Canada Basketball treated Jay Triano (they were personal friends with Triano). But since then we have not heard a word on how the search is going.
Why they just don't name Roy Rana is beyond me. Personally at the very least I think Rana is involved as an assistant coach and he is Ok either way as head coach or an assistant.

Rowan Barrett (GM) and Glen Grunwald (President) are out pounding the pavement talking to all the players and have been for some time so I am not too worried about that. But who knows, if they come up with a weird Euro coach that no one knows (or likes), perhaps it could turn some guys off. I think the coach is a little less important here - this is more about managing NBA talent, giving the best players the freedom to play and not screwing it up by over-coaching. They all seem to like Roy Rana and he is a capable tactical coach so why not roll with him?

To be frank, it's more about how it makes the organization looks than the result. Like they made a big deal about their coaching search and then some of the prospects drop out. Since then it's been radio silence. Why do all of that when you know you could have done so quietly? Especially so close to your big debut on the world stage. Like they can pound the pavement all they want, I bet the first question those players ask is "who is coaching?" and it can't be reassuring for them to not get a solid answer.

Mr Chacho
05-14-2019, 10:53 AM
Pau Gasol out of the WC, confirmed by Sergio Scariolo.

Steadysoul
05-15-2019, 06:32 PM
Simmons declaring certainly changes things.

Dtown
05-16-2019, 12:44 AM
Simmons declaring certainly changes things.

In the group of death, every big announcement puts pressure on the others. Still not quite sure how Simmons will translate internationally, pair him with shooters and he'll obviously be great, but beyond that it's hard to tell at least against other quality teams.

Hepcat
05-17-2019, 02:23 PM
...I believe our most effective line-up will be with Sabonis - Kuzminskas - Ulanovas - Grigonis - Lekavicius as an open court 5, playing aggressive transition basketball, putting Sabonis in Jokic's shoes when team is forced to play half court basketball.

Straight forward is the only Lithuanian poster who isn't inclined to include Jonas Valančiūnas and Mantas Kalnietis in Lithuania's top five lineup.

:rolleyes:

Hepcat
05-17-2019, 02:31 PM
Wiggins and Stauskas have not played since 2015 and Trey Lyles has never played at the senior level.


last summer I believe we had Joesph, Olynyk, Powell, Birch, Thompson, Brooks, Pangos and Barrett all together - so thatís a good start. We are behind other countries but not starting from scratch. Management has been trying to put a consistent system in place for a half decade now at least. Last summer Chris Boucher didnít make the team as the coaches said he hadnít had enough time with the program to know their system. Itís also why some other NBA player probably wonít be missed (like Wiggins, Lyles or Stauskas) and we could be better off with Euro pros more familiar with the program.

I agree. I think Team Canada would be improved by adding some Euro pros who've been regular fixtures on the team for several years than going with a johnny-come-lately all-NBA squad. Such a Canadian team would have the potential to make the semis.

:)

Hepcat
05-17-2019, 04:33 PM
Probably not, but you never know:
Andrew Wiggins - not sure he is interested or if the others guys even want him there.

Why not? Too much of a "It's all about me!" player? Does he rub other Team Canada players the wrong way therefore?

:confused:

mojo13
05-17-2019, 08:01 PM
Why not? Too much of a "It's all about me!" player? Does he rub other team Canada players the wrong way therefore?

:confused:

Not really. Wiggins' doesn't have an abrasive personality - much the opposite - there seems not much personality at all, he is more the quiet, introvert type. People question his desire, heart and lackadaisical attitude (which can rub people the wrong way - ask Jimmy Butler).
He is a bit of a ball stopper on offense, often settling for for inefficient long range 2s and he doesn't seem to put in much effort on defense. He is one of the most inefficient high usage players in the league. And it just often seems he is not passionate about bball and would rather be doing something else (especially in the off-season). For a guy who hasn't played since 2015, taking no part in the road to get here - I am just not sure the vets (or coaches) are going to bend over backwards or make any accommodations to get him on the team (there are rumors he asked to be paid to play in the past). He is too much of a talent for Canada to say no if he really wants to play - but I for one worry about his fit and what he'd do to chemistry. So far he has made no indication he wants to play - when directly asked by Canadian media the best he has been able to respond is "I'm open to it". Which is at least something, I suppose. But honestly, we could be better off without him.

usagre
05-17-2019, 08:11 PM
Canada has fielded a lifetime of Euroleague quality players and that hasn’t really produced any great results. They are in a position that most countries would envy with excellent young world class talent. Yet we are talking about excluding them for run of the mill average dime a dozen players. Makes absolutely no sense. We’ve seen that movie. Assemble your most talented best players and shoot for the moon.

Steadysoul
05-18-2019, 02:18 AM
Canada has fielded a lifetime of Euroleague quality players and that hasn’t really produced any great results. They are in a position that most countries would envy with excellent young world class talent. Yet we are talking about excluding them for run of the mill average dime a dozen players. Makes absolutely no sense. We’ve seen that movie. Assemble your most talented best players and shoot for the moon.

Everything about their team in up in the air at this point. No coach. No set players.

Hepcat
05-18-2019, 05:26 PM
People question his(Wiggins') desire, heart and lackadaisical attitude (which can rub people the wrong way - ask Jimmy Butler).

He is a bit of a ball stopper on offense, often settling for for inefficient long range 2s and he doesn't seem to put in much effort on defense. He is one of the most inefficient high usage players in the league. And it just often seems he is not passionate about bball and would rather be doing something else (especially in the off-season). For a guy who hasn't played since 2015, taking no part in the road to get here - I am just not sure the vets (or coaches) are going to bend over backwards or make any accommodations to get him on the team (there are rumors he asked to be paid to play in the past).... I for one worry about his fit and what he'd do to chemistry. So far he has made no indication he wants to play....

Well that's certainly a whole bunch of reasons not to include him on the team right there.

:(

mojo13
05-21-2019, 04:53 PM
To be frank, it's more about how it makes the organization looks than the result. Like they made a big deal about their coaching search and then some of the prospects drop out. Since then it's been radio silence. Why do all of that when you know you could have done so quietly? Especially so close to your big debut on the world stage. Like they can pound the pavement all they want, I bet the first question those players ask is "who is coaching?" and it can't be reassuring for them to not get a solid answer.


Sounding like Gordon Herbert (Fraport Skyliners - BBL) is going to be Canada's head coach.

https://sportando.basketball/en/gordon-herbert-leaves-frankfurt-sebastian-gleim-named-head-coach/



I'm fairly neutral on him - but more because I don't know much about him. He did at least coach a Qualifier window and been an assistant in the past, so he is familiar with he program. Canada Basketball just doesn't have any money to hire a bigger name coach. This is still a labor of love position likely to be filled by a Canadian until more sponsorship money comes into the program (and just another reason why I hate the dominant hockey culture in Canada).
At this point, the only surprise is that Roy Rana wasn't named head coach - most likely he turned it down or had a conflict.

Any of you following European bball closer have much an opinion of Gordie Herbert? Please educate me.

Srle
05-22-2019, 07:06 PM
In the group of death, every big announcement puts pressure on the others. Still not quite sure how Simmons will translate internationally, pair him with shooters and he'll obviously be great, but beyond that it's hard to tell at least against other quality teams.

Well we know how Giannis game translates in FIBA competition, they are both similar in the sense that they cant shoot.

mojo13
05-23-2019, 02:29 AM
Here is the announced Aussie 17 man squad.

17-MAN AUSTRALIAN BOOMERS SQUAD

DENG ADEL - Cleveland Cavaliers (NBA)
ARON BAYNES - Boston Celtics (NBA)
TODD BLANCHFIELD - Illawarra Hawks
ANDREW BOGUT - Sydney Kings/Golden State Warriors (NBA)
JONAH BOLDEN - Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
MITCH CREEK - South East Melbourne Phoenix
MATTHEW DELLAVEDOVA - Cleveland Cavaliers (NBA)
CAMERON GLIDDON - Brisbane Bullets
CHRIS GOULDING - Melbourne United
JOE INGLES - Utah Jazz (NBA)
NICHOLAS KAY - Perth Wildcats
JOCK LANDALE - Partizan (Serbia)
MITCH MCCARRON -Melbourne United
PATTY MILLS - San Antonio Spurs (NBA)
BROCK MOTUM - Anadolu Efes (Turkey)
BEN SIMMONS - Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
NATHAN SOBEY - Brisbane Bullets


Commentary:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/ben-simmons-headlines-nbaheavy-aussie-boomers-training-camp-squad-for-2019-fiba-world-cup/news-story/857d500bf388109ef276c75376f476b3


https://pickandroll.com.au/boomers-world-cup-squad-brimming-with-nba-talent/



Top 3 or 4 talent IMO.

Roofman
05-23-2019, 05:00 AM
With the absence of Ryan Broekhoff, there is a need for shooters, particularly because opponents will obviously try to pack in their defence around Simmons. Owing to this, and greater familiarity with the system, I see Olympic holdover Chris Goulding, and Lemanis favourites Gliddon , Sobey, Blanchfield and McCarron as legitimate chances to not only make the team, but play meaningful minutes at the guard/swingmen spots, over Deng Adel. Also, while many on these forums have condemmed the FIBA qualifiers and some have taken pot shots at Australia in particular, as if to say, who do they play, having a regular Australian national team program through qualifiers is one of the positives of the late Patrick Baumann, definitely the system works in the Asia Pacific, both in developing standards, and fan/media/corporate interest.

I don't consider Thon Maker's absence a huge loss, as he is still yet to progress beyond being a project, provided Jonah Bolden is included. For me, athletic teams like Canada will obviously try to go small against the Australian frontline, using say, Powell, Birch, Ejim, the maligned Tristan Thompson etc.., attempting to make Baynes and Bogut unplayable. For this, I feel Bolden is a must (even though uncapped and untried at this level)along with Creek, while I think Nick Kay absolutely can also step up with quality minutes.

The two biggest issues are (first one repeated), incorporating new players will take time in Lemanis' system and although every single team shows up to win, there could well be a little short term pain for longer term gain. The second is that Australia have only four lead in games scheduled (albeit of A+ standard) and two of those against Canada, where I suspect both teams will try to win with a hand tied behind their backs to not show all their cards. This seems way too low, unless Basketball Australia have one or two (possibly behind closed doors) friendlies lined up in Dongguan/Guangzhou upon arrival, like with Spain before the Rio Olympics.

To Mojo, I don't pay much heed into what Olgun Uluc states for Fox, as in the same way Fox News is a mouthpiece of the US military, he is basically a mouthpiece of the NBA and a few player agents. I think he is still in his early 30s/late 20s, (was a journalism/marketing student at Northwestern but I digress) and he has mouthed off saying Simmons wouldn't play, Simmons thinks Lemanis is a fool, Josh Green is a serious chance to make this team when Green didn't attend any of the previous camps and all the usual US based ramblings against FIBA etc.

Hepcat
05-23-2019, 03:01 PM
...and just another reason why I hate the dominant hockey culture in Canada.

I'm fine with it. Quite simply it's one of the few things making us culturally distinctive from the U.S. as well as unique on the world stage.

:)

Efesdxb
05-23-2019, 08:15 PM
Why is Ryan Broekhoff absent?

Roofman
05-23-2019, 09:55 PM
Birth of his child in June with complications expected to be involved.

Obina
05-24-2019, 08:59 AM
Jokic finally confirmed - he will play for Serbia!

Dtown
05-26-2019, 03:52 PM
Sources say Canada finally gets a coach, and it's a good one.

Sources say Toronto Raptors head coach Nick Nurse will manage Team Canada at World Cup. (https://twitter.com/PeteYannopoulos/status/1132670281972105216?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1132670281972105216&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2 Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1843185)

mojo13
05-26-2019, 04:31 PM
Sources say Canada finally gets a coach, and it's a good one.

Sources say Toronto Raptors head coach Nick Nurse will manage Team Canada at World Cup. (https://twitter.com/PeteYannopoulos/status/1132670281972105216?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1132670281972105216&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2 Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1843185)

Yeah...just saw that as well. Quite interesting.

Sounds like the report of Gordie Herbert was a little off and he is coming in as an assistant. Which is great. Nurseís FIBA experience is a little old.

Toruko
05-27-2019, 03:28 PM
Opinions on specific rankings are pretty meaningless until we see the rosters. Greece with no Giannis? Serbia with no Jokic? Iíd just stick with tiers until we know more about rosters.

NBA players have had a pretty poor turnout rate the last few years too, so who really know what Australia and Canada will show up with? Both countryís talent pools are top 4 in my opinion, but that doesnít matter if guys donít show up. Donít underestimate the pressure NBA clubs and agents on putting on guys to not play FIBA nowadays.
Giannis with a deep playoff run? Jokic too with all his little injuries and history of not playing. Gobert too? The Gasols at their age?- anyone this there is more than a 50/50 chance of any of these guys playing?



Without knowing rosters Iíd tier them up like this:

Tier 1:
USA

Tier 2:
Australia
Canada
France
Greece
Lithuania
Serbia
Spain

Tier 3:
Russia
Italy
Turkey
Germany
Czech Republic
Brazil
Argentina.
Montenegro

Tier 4
Poland
Dominican Rebublic
Puerto Rico
Venezuela
New Zealand
China

Tier 5:
Angola
Japan
Nigeria
Senegal
Philippines.
Tunisia
Iran
Korea.
Cote d'Ivoire
Jordan

It looks ok for me, if you change greece. Greece is even with Giannis not in that group. Without Giannis greeks are not even mentionable. They neglected to raise up prospects for an entire decade. Especially in the center position and also power forward they are really weak. A 36 year old Bourousis, a never playing Koufos and Papagiannis who couldnt play 30 games in 3 years in the nba.

And at 4 you just have an old Printezis, who played a horrible Euroleague season and just Mitoglou.

Srle
05-29-2019, 07:20 PM
Giannis was horrible so far in FIBA competition , his lack of shooting is even more evident in those tournament , he's been quite exposed there. Canada, Australia and France in front of Serbia,you got to be kidding.

mojo13
05-29-2019, 09:25 PM
Giannis was horrible so far in FIBA competition , his lack of shooting is even more evident in those tournament , he's been quite exposed there. Canada, Australia and France in front of Serbia,you got to be kidding.

Those are merely tiers with alphabetical listings within the tiers (for the first tier)- not a ranking. It is also prior to knowing anyone's roster or the draw). Serbia is my silver medal favorite (probably Vegas's favorite as well). Tough to really rank anyone clearly until we see rosters - but Serbia would be #2 or #3 in most people's list regardless.

Terrorizer
05-30-2019, 12:25 AM
Sounding like Gordon Herbert (Fraport Skyliners - BBL) is going to be Canada's head coach.

Any of you following European bball closer have much an opinion of Gordie Herbert? Please educate me.
A fairly good coach, imo. Yet his results are somewhat unstable and when the overall "team system" is functioning with high efficiency, he proves to be capable with mindul organization of the game and successful neutralization of opposing team's strengths. But it's not always the case and if something is broken (like team chemistry, for example), then he can't serve as an 'emergency repair' type of coach, more of a 'system guy', I guess.

Generally he uses moderately deep rosters but with a couple of guys who play a lot and perform as clear "go-to" players. Most emblematic example is the role he gave to local Frankfurt's legend Tez Robertson (who is a helluva baller, by the way, much better than many highly hyped EL and even NBA "stars"). Gordie generally prefers fast tempo, mobile bigs and multiple guys who play with the ball and also distribute it (and this includes wingers). Still the style of the game highly depends on the roster he currently can rely on and can shift from bigger to lesser focus on perimeter. Yet generally he prefers most of the players to be solid shooters (as opposed to athletic muscleheads) and that include bigs, especially PFs and 3/4 tweeners, so definitely in most of his combinations there is a big 'stretching the floor'component involved.

Generally, Gordie's teams (and this means Frankfurt Skyliners, first and foremost, as he coaches this team for many, many years - though in multiple stints - which does not happen that often in Europe) play sensible, even tatcically nuanced offense but defense is more of a gamble (sometimes very good, sometimes not so much) and there is a lack of mental toughness and ability to 'finish off' the opponent.

Nevertheless, I think he is a good coach but I don't know how comfortable he'll be at the helm of Canada NT. He is a mainstay in Bundesliga and, afaik, he is a highly respected coach there. Moreover, he had won a BBL coach of the year award back in 2016 and this is a good sign since in BBL the level of coaching is even higher than the level of players pool (which is also a reasonably high one). Imho, Herbert is much better than, for example, current Bulls' assistant coach Fleming who also successfully coached in Germany but among 'overseas BBL coaches' I tend to like John Patrick even more.

Big advantage of Herbert lies in the fact that he is totally comfortable and highly adapted to FIBA/international style of basketball but the question remains if he can adapt most of his (demi)star players to this style, especially those with big ego.


Here is the announced Aussie 17 man squad.

17-MAN AUSTRALIAN BOOMERS SQUAD

DENG ADEL - Cleveland Cavaliers (NBA)
ARON BAYNES - Boston Celtics (NBA)
TODD BLANCHFIELD - Illawarra Hawks
ANDREW BOGUT - Sydney Kings/Golden State Warriors (NBA)
JONAH BOLDEN - Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
MITCH CREEK - South East Melbourne Phoenix
MATTHEW DELLAVEDOVA - Cleveland Cavaliers (NBA)
CAMERON GLIDDON - Brisbane Bullets
CHRIS GOULDING - Melbourne United
JOE INGLES - Utah Jazz (NBA)
NICHOLAS KAY - Perth Wildcats
JOCK LANDALE - Partizan (Serbia)
MITCH MCCARRON -Melbourne United
PATTY MILLS - San Antonio Spurs (NBA)
BROCK MOTUM - Anadolu Efes (Turkey)
BEN SIMMONS - Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
NATHAN SOBEY - Brisbane Bullets



Top 3 or 4 talent IMO.
For me that's a very mediocre (even if predictably mediocre) roster. If Canada and Lietuva won't royally fuck up, then I suspect that Aussies will be that very "powerhouse" to pack their belongings early.

Especially weak is the backcourt rotation and C position is simply atrocious. Dellavedova finally shown his (mundane, unremarkable) worth. For the league where they never play defense during RS he can be a defensive monster, that bulldog of sorts, but I don't think that it will successfully translate into defnsive dominance in China. Patty is a mentally unstable, incurable primadonna in a team where he should be a sharp-shooting energizer off-the-bench. Goulding, the only pure shooter with a decent background, most probably will play only garbage time if he makes a roster. All the other backcourt rotation variants are either unproven or definitely subpar. Unexplainable and inexcusable absense of Broekhoff (a good all-around player who is also a terrific spot-up shooter) leaves Aussies only with Mills as a confident perimeter option. Nope, you Boomers, that's not enough to succeed in this day and age. There are weird things happening (mediocre Slovenian team winning Eurobasket is an icing on the cake of recent absurdities) but here I highly doubt that a team with one decent run in a big international tournament during the last 15 years will overcome such an obstacle.

Non-shooting Creek, extremely streaky shooting Adel and old 5.5 ppg in EL "NBA star" Ingles, I pity the team with such a 'perfect' rotation on the wing (well, that doesn't count one famous 'point forward' but I've talked about shooting aspect, so this omission is understandable). But that pales in comparison towards the depths of depravity which reign supreme on C position. Landale, most probably a third option right now, is the best of them but he makes Tomic and Pleiss look like lockdown defenders in the paint. Bogut seems to be old as dirt (though he is not that old but he makes such an impression) and slow as molasses... well, these days he is not even a particularly good option for NBL. Retarded lumberjack Baynes (a potentially promising player back in the day whose potential was wasted in NBA) comes off fresh from one of his worst NBA season and a big of his built, speed and playing manner can cut it on this level some 15 years ago but today he is like australopithecus sadistically reanimated back to life in some Lovecraftian fashion. Motum, who can play some minutes as C, also had a rough season in Efes and is a big question mark (despite me having sympathy for his uncut, sloppy yet diligent 'take-no-bullshit' playing style).

About the quality of local NBL constituent I also have my doubts since best of these guys tend to play in Europe every now and then once the NBL season is over and it doesn't look that they are valuable assets on the equal footing with the older Boomers generation (shit, those were the ones who were good enough to play in Europe full-time). For example, NT candidate Nathan Sobey got the stats of 4.5 ppg + 1.9 apg playing for Starsbourg (15 games).

Some interesting (and rare in this day and age) European options are overlooked - I think that there should be a place in this roster for someone like Ben Madgen, even if he's old, but they need shooters like him. Also with guys like Blanchfield and Kay being singled out for this 'wide roster', I wonder why Xavier Cooks is not named - he's young and inexperienced but this is a player with a definite upside, very versatile and agile forward who likes to run the floor, plays hard through the contact and grabs rebounds at a solid rate but who also progresses a lot in sharing the ball and understanding the game. The most infuriating is the missing of Mangok Mathiang who is the only Aussie big who can give them a much needed rebounding edge. Right now he is much better than Baynes and (today's) Bogut combined. I mean, he's rough around the edges but that guy is a rebounding machine and for an unadulterated athletic beast he expanded his offensive potential a lot since his Louisville days. Mangok is one of the main guys for a team which made it to the semies in Lega A.

Yet here we have Ben Simmons surrounded by non-shooters and ageing slow bigs... that should be a recipe for disaster if there is some form of the higher basketball justice.

Also there is a lot of talk how Australia is brimming with "NBA talent" but I've just checked who among Aussie NBAers played more than 20 minutes per game this season (that's not a terrific number even for an international player, it's a level of mediocrity like Maxi Kleber). Simmons, Patty, Ingles (another total mediocrity) and... that's all. This season even Delly played less. Huh, that doesn't sound like Top 3 or 4 talent for me.

P.S. I have nothing personal against our lovely antipodes, moreover, I even sympathized with their national team some 10-15 years ago but right now their team is one of the most overrated ones.

Toruko
05-30-2019, 12:37 AM
Well in that group everything can happen and I wouldnt also overestimate the Lithuanians. Their biggest problem is still Mantas Kalnietis. He is a catastrophy as a pg and even a european powerhouse in BB like couldnt solve his pg problem. Big rotation with Valenciunas, Domantas Sabonis, Maciulis and Kavaliauskas is more than ok but the shorts will be a big problem.

Terrorizer
05-30-2019, 12:39 AM
Oh, I've missed that Canadians chose a nurse to coach their team. Not the best decision, I suppose :)


France in front of Serbia,you got to be kidding.
France has a potential roster twice as good as Serbia and thrice as deep :)

My "tiers ranking".

Tier I. USA (how big is a distance between them and any Tier II team depends on the roster they assemble).

Tier II. France, Spain, Canada (a lot depends on their roster and team chemistry), Serbia: ordered power-wise.

Tier III. Argentina, Australia, Germany, Greece, Italy, Lithuania, Russia: ordered alphabetically.

Tier IV. Montenegro, Brazil, Turkey, Czech Republic, Poland, New Zealand, Nigeria, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico.

Tier V. Venezuela, China, Senegal, Cote d'Ivoire, Angola.

Tier VI. Philippines, Japan, Tunisia, Iran, Jordan, Southern Korea.

Toruko
05-30-2019, 12:45 AM
Russia, Germany and Argentina stronger than Turkey? You must be kidding. hahahahahahaa

Roofman
05-30-2019, 05:05 AM
This reply is partly directed at Mojo, and mainly to Terroizer, mainly to do with the assessments of players and leagues.

One thing that bugs me, is that Australia's performance in the Rio Olympics (5-3 record, all wins by a minimum of fifteen points) was some kind of fluke. Going into the Olympics, I was quietly confident that Australia would do well, I was less confident that in 2008 and 2012, when for example, Patty Mills as a collegian was our best player in 2008 and Dellavedova was a starter in 2012. Most true North American experts will tell you that a US collegiate team would have no chance of medalling in these type of events, so I knew that Australia would not medal with a collegiate Dellavedova as a starter, especially someone who didn't appear NBA bound.

In fact, I may even agree with Terrorizer that Australia is perhaps a little overrated as the next big thing in international basketball. But to me, this comes from comments from people stateside who have dealings with Australian players (Gregg Popovic, Jonathan Givony), in addition, Olgun Uluc, who is stateside and essentially a mouthpiece of NBA agents/coaches and writers on the NBL payroll (Liam Santamaria, Tom Herz) who have a vested interest in talking up the NBL generally are in this boat. While confident, experienced writers who I respect, including Boty Nagy and Paul Kennedy (former FIBA Oceania correspondent, still occasionally posts on hoops.com.au) are less bullish, though few would disagree that Australian basketball is on an upswing generally.

What many, many people in Australia, Europe and the Americas fail to understand is that player's roles evolve through time, and their performance in one league, club, international competition or context is not necessarily indicative of what they will produce in others. So for example, some dickhead US writer disparaged the NBL seeing that Isaac Humphries was the 2017/18 NBL rookie of the year after playing 10 minutes per game at Kentucky, yet he received minutes on the worst team on the league (Sydney Kings), he was a bare bones 19 years old in his sophomore season at Kentucky and his game and body have evolved to the extent that he saw a ten day contract for Atlanta. I know about and watched Joe Ingles at Barca/Tel Aviv (maybe a dozen times in full games?), where his statistics varied from DNP/CD to bench minutes, to at times obtaining Euroleague votes. His emergence in Utah was for defence primarily as a foil to Hayward, and he was one of the very few players in the NBA who a quality coach (Snyder) told to shoot more because the offence breaks down if you pass up semi open shots and only play as a glue guy making hockey assists. His work with Zak Guthrie also tightened up his shooting release, but I don't have a problem with believing an Australian player reaches his peak around 30 years old, because our system of both junior and NBL development in initial phases means it is a longer path to the magical 10 000 hours of excellence Malcolm Gladwell waffles on about.

Similarly, Patty Mills had to overcome career threatening injuries in the early parts of his pro career, and while obviously still streaky, he has added moving without the ball, a mid range pull up and the ability to run some pick and pop action to his game when he isn't firing from the land of plenty. His never was and never will be a floor general, but Popovic loves him for his locker room presence and he has publicly praised him for his ability to get the defence organised, his energy, getting the team into offensive sets, basic things that a lot of players at his level have no interest doing. As it is, he has probably reached his ceiling as a player, but he was outstanding in Rio and he has learned to score more efficiently over time in FIBA competition.

Matthew Dellavedova is an elite playmaker, that Australia lacked when Shane Heal bricked us out of a medal in 2000, overall providing a good assist/turnover ratio, hockey assists, a high 30s three points shooter in addition to intangibles/hard screens etc, plays borderline dirty blah, blah, blah. These things hold true especially in FIBA ball, where he is more than a hustle player. Baynes too, has added range to his game, while being an elite per minute rebounder and rim protector (ask Stevens, Stan Van Gundy etc). Most NBA teams would want both on their team in limited roles and Dellavedova, while reaching his ceiling, simply wasn't a good fit for whatever reason at Milwaukee, and put together a nice 30+ game mini-season in limited minutes at Cleveland again this year (because management wanted to develop Sexton) before concussion ruined his season.

Regarding the rest, I don't read anything into Sobey, Andersen's, Jawai's European stints etc, because their role is different and offences are not tailored to them for no other reason that their plays/patterns are established by late March. So to Terrorizer, Torrey Craig was far from the greatest ever import to come to Australia, yet spent three years with Cairns and Brisbane and is now a regular rotation player for the Denver Nuggets, Andersen always underwhelmed in an Australian jersey until 2016 and indeed was far from awesome in his return from Europe then, despite being healthy for his mid-thirties age. Heal was second in the Greek League in both scoring and assists in his day at Near East. I could go on with other examples, but I think I have made my point about changing roles, evolving players, systems, the effect of refereeing, having the full confidence of coaches etc....

Some important things (both pro and con) some of which have been mentioned here before, some haven't need to be stated, as these will influence Australia's immediate and longer term prospects. Apologies if this is beating a dead horse
1. Limited build up preparation- unlike most opponents having 7-10 games, Australia have four games only scheduled, and I can guarantee that while giving 100% effort, they will play against Canada (especially) and the US not showing their entire repetoire, as past lessons have been learned here. Unless they have some behind closed door hitouts assigned in Dognguan/Guangzhou, this is will below acceptable and these are always greater in the Olympics, where more funding is available.
2. Xavier Cooks has been added to the 18 man squad, but Cooks and Bolden, are complete novices in Lemanis' system, while Simmons hasn't played for him since being a teenager. They will need time to slot into his system, as sadly, the Olympics is the bigger picture. I said before that Lemanis was nearly fired at NZ Breakers before winning a NBL three peat from 2011-13, and ran a rabble at Brisbane for two years, and only marginally better this year, although they made the playoffs. For this reason, Landale is a longshot to make the team, while Mathiang was not invited to camp, although he was capped in the last round of qualifiers. Agree that Broekhoff and lock down defender, but injury plagued Dante Exum will be missed in the short term.
3. Speaking of qualifiers, Australia traditionally only had to beat NZ to qualify for any world event. While one could argue that is a tougher task than the Asian comp now, it allows for camps, continuity of program, and the ability of Basketball Australia to build media/marketing awareness of players not done since the great Soviet Union toured in 1987/1988. The camps and training are obviously tougher than the competition, but playing real qualifiers, in addition to the FIBA Asia Cup and Commonwealth Games (Asian Games in 2022) are only long term positives in every single way for Australian basketball, and jingoism aside, over many, many years, will reduce the black spots in the Australian program, like the Olympic semi final.
4. One reason why I suspect Australian basketball is respected by in-the-know people stateside is that increasing Australian influence in NBA circles. These include assistant coaches, scouts, front office people, team doctors, physios, you name it, there was a list somewhere maybe a year ago of 20+ Australians in all the entire NBA industry, which means information is accumulated, processed, then improved on and adapted to Australian needs. This has been going on for 20+ years in Europe, but now Oceania is catching up (NZ too). There was a thread somewhere in the Euro section of this forum stating from various people about the (generally poor level) professionalism of their domestic leagues (I remember for instance, someone mentioned that Greek Clubs train in high school type gyms, Zalgiris Kaunas have a nice spa set up). Lemanis made good use of Andrew Price with his use of analytics (forget the name of his company in Auckland, he worked with him even in his NZ Breakers days), while world class physiotherapists saw Andrew Bogut recover to finally put on a green and gold uniform in Rio, when it probably wasn't possible.
For me, I will repeat that the draw is beyond stupid for Australia, Canda, Lithuania and Senegal because even the advancing teams will likely face France and Germany in the second round, then musing ahead, is it the US or Greece in the quarters....? Given the absolute disrespect in refereeing to non-European teams, it is a big ask for Australia to medal, especially given the history of a one game black spot. From a Canadian perspective, if Herbert is to be appointed head coach, then you would hope he can jell the team quickly and not spend an excessive amount of time on cuts. I shudder what you might do with mobile bigs (Ejim, Birch, etc...)

A final thing to mention to Terrorizer is the relative quality of leagues. I doubt that European leagues are many times better than the NBL by judging results. So, vs NBA teams in the US, NBL teams have run close a few times in two years only, have no doubt that they will eventually break through. As it is, only four Euroleague teams (CSKA *2, Fenerbache, Maccabi Tel Aviv v Toronto in 2006) have won in North America. That was also reflected in 1995 McDonalds Open, 1981 World Club Championship etc for NBL v Euro champion. There is still a way to go, so while the ACB have contributed nearly 40 players to the NBA in legitimate two way exchange, the number of NBL to NBA players is growing, and I don't think it is a monumental increase in quality over the last few years, simply Australian clubs, officials and players creating links, while streaming means the NBA can follow games and prospects here without the time of cost of always flying out personnel.

Hope this clarified some issues to the international community. Angolan officials and players weren't happy when their 1992 Olympic win over Spain was deemed a miracle and it the word 'fluke' was never said here, but Australian basketball is on the up, expectation is not easy to deal with and their may be growing pains involved with being a consistent contender, not the least of which is I doubt Simmons' maturity.

Terrorizer
05-31-2019, 12:34 AM
Russia, Germany and Argentina stronger than Turkey? You must be kidding. hahahahahahaa
No, I'm definitely not. During the last major international tournament (it was EB 2017) Russia was fourth (but now many "experts" put it behind Nigeria and somewhere close to 20th place in their "power rankings"), Germany was eliminated in the quarterfinals, winning games against the likes of Lithuania and France, and Turkey finished fourth in their group (which included Russia, by the way) before being eliminated in the 1/8 stage. Two games won (against Belgium and UK) and four losses. And, yes, Turkish team did include both Osman and Korkmaz. Once Turkey NT will have a guard rotation like Campazzo/Lapprovitola/L. Vildoza/Redivo/Brussino, I'll start to rate it higher than I currently do.

Other than that, who are the main candidates for your national team's roster? Wilbekin/Balbay/Sipahi (I hope there are no guys like Sinan Guler anymore?) - Korkmaz/Mahmutoglu/Koksal - Osman/Gecim - M-me Ilyasova (whose age, like that of any grand dame, remains clouded in mystery)/Turen - Erden/Yurtseven (?)/Sanli. Well, it's hardly a powerhouse's roster. There are zero extra-class players here (no, one stat-wise good season in one of the worst NBA teams doesn't make Cedi a player of this caliber) and most of these players are having big trouble with securing playing time in the games that matter. And some of them are also very inexperienced and raw.

I mean, there are many bright Turkish prospects but somehow most of them are withering instead of blooming. I blame the way your domestic league is run and, moreover, your problems are similar to ours. Instead of developing those bright prospects powerhouses waste them on the bench and even medium-level teams build their gameplan exclusively focusing on foregin players, not giving domestic ones enough of creative freedom and trust. The talents are there (if some Deniz Kilicli was, for example, Lithuanian, he'll have a solid, if unremarkable European career and if Tolga was Lithuanian, then most probably he will be already playing for a serious club in ACB) but the spoiled system makes it very hard for them to develop in a meaningful way.

So, in the end, which Turkish players play meaningful minutes for their clubs (in the games that matter)? Well, even Balbay can't really crack Efes's rotation. Efes has zero such players, Melih is borderline rotation player in Fener, Tofas has Baris Ermis (who is 34 y.o.) and, to some extent, Yigit Arslan, GS has Koksal (talented Ege Arar is warming the bench), Besiktas has only Kenan and 36 y.o. Veyseloglu (a mediocre player by any count) and so on. Even Russia, which suffers from similar problems (magnified by the fact that we have no domestic league and options to play on the highest level are severely limited for local players), has a more sizeable number of domestic guys who play some role for the powerhouse teams: Kurbanov for CSKA, Ponkrashov and Kolesnikov for UNICS, Shved, Zubkov and even Monya for Khimki, Kulagin, Fridzon and Khvostov for Loko, Karasyov, Voronov, Trushkin, even Valiev for Zenit. Of these Shved, Kulagin and Karasyov are leaders of their respective teams and, most probably, you'll find it hard to name a local leader for any BSL team.

Roofman, a truly great post! Actually, it may sound weird (since you are "debating" with me :)), but I largely agree with you on most matters. Yet there are some points of (somewhat slight) disagreement... and that concerns largely three things - 1) "true quality" of NBL (not the most knowledgeable here, for sure, but still I have my doubts how much it progressed), 2) the change in the level of talent of Aussie bball for the last 10-15 years (there were a lot of worthy players in the late 00s - early 10s, most of them just prefered to play in Europe instead of trying to catch up with that "NBA train" and being ok with playing garbage time for multiple seasons in the process); 3) assessment of some particular players. I'll try to add my opinion on these questions in a not so distant future :)

One last thing to add: the fact which makes Australia and Canada similar is an extremely high occurence of their brightest prospects failing to live up to the expectations. I mean, many Australian players impress in the youth categories, some of them even get drafted really high but examples of Dante Exum and Thon Maker seem to be more of a rule than the one of Ben Simmons. And where are the guys like Hugh Greenwood, Tony Drmic, Dejan Vasiljevic? I remember them as players with a very big upside but somehow we don't see them knocking on the national team's locker room door.

R1ou
05-31-2019, 12:54 AM
Giannis was horrible so far in FIBA competition , his lack of shooting is even more evident in those tournament , he's been quite exposed there. Canada, Australia and France in front of Serbia,you got to be kidding.

Giannis last played in a FIBA competition back at 2016, he's basically in a whole another level 3 years later.

Toruko
05-31-2019, 01:20 AM
No, I'm definitely not. During the last major international tournament (it was EB 2017) Russia was fourth (but now many "experts" put it behind Nigeria and somewhere close to 20th place in their "power rankings"), Germany was eliminated in the quarterfinals, winning games against the likes of Lithuania and France, and Turkey finished fourth in their group (which included Russia, by the way) before being eliminated in the 1/8 stage. Two games won (against Belgium and UK) and four losses. And, yes, Turkish team did include both Osman and Korkmaz. Once Turkey NT will have a guard rotation like Campazzo/Lapprovitola/L. Vildoza/Redivo/Brussino, I'll start to rate it higher than I currently do.


Well I expected such an argumentation. I think taking Eurobasket 2017 for evaluation the current powerlevels of the teams will give you a wrong idea. Turkey had lost almost all Bigs before that tournement. Asik was out because of a desease called "chrom", Enes Kanter because of political issues, Oguz Savas hadnt played for 2 years, Yurtseven was far too young and our only Big Semih Erden hadnt played for 8 month basketball because of a shoulder injury, Ersan Ilyasova had just a prearrangement with the Hawks and wouldnt have got a contract in case of an injury, so he couldnt come either . In addition to that Bobby Dixon got also injured shortly before the tournament started. Turkey played practically with a U20 team. The problem was and partly is that turkey neglected to raise prospect for an entire decade. So a 21 year old Sipahi, Cedi and a 19 year old Furkan Korkmaz played.

Russia has surely valuable Bigs such as Vorontsevich, Kurbanov, Mozgov, even though he never plays in the nba but russia has just Shved in the short rotation, an old Friedzon not even Khvostov wont be available this time. Russia can never be stronger than a Wilbekin, a 2 year older Cedi, Furkan, Ersan and probably a Yurtseven.

Turkey has played couple month ago against Germany in Hamburg in the VTG supercup and won against a respectable roster 100:79 without breaking a sweat. Germany surely is a competitive team but still not strong enough to beat turkey.


Other than that, who are the main candidates for your national team's roster? Wilbekin/Balbay/Sipahi (I hope there are no guys like Sinan Guler anymore?) - Korkmaz/Mahmutoglu/Koksal - Osman/Gecim - M-me Ilyasova (whose age, like that of any grand dame, remains clouded in mystery)/Turen - Erden/Yurtseven (?)/Sanli. Well, it's hardly a powerhouse's roster. There are zero extra-class players here (no, one stat-wise good season in one of the worst NBA teams doesn't make Cedi a player of this caliber) and most of these players are having big trouble with securing playing time in the games that matter. And some of them are also very inexperienced and raw.

Balbay ÷zmizrak
Wilbekin Mahmutoglu
Osman Furkan Korkmaz
Ilyasova Tolga Gecim
Semih Yurtseven

will be most likely the roster and I cant really see what should be so frightening playing against vildoza or campazzo. Turkey has a big rotation problem but especially the starting five can keep up with the most. And calling Ilyasova old when the youngest player in the russian roster is 30 is quite funny :)


I mean, there are many bright Turkish prospects but somehow most of them are withering instead of blooming. I blame the way your domestic league is run and, moreover, your problems are similar to ours. Instead of developing those bright prospects powerhouses waste them on the bench and even medium-level teams build their gameplan exclusively focusing on foregin players, not giving domestic ones enough of creative freedom and trust. The talents are there (if some Deniz Kilicli was, for example, Lithuanian, he'll have a solid, if unremarkable European career and if Tolga was Lithuanian, then most probably he will be already playing for a serious club in ACB) but the spoiled system makes it very hard for them to develop in a meaningful way.

I assume you are russian. Well the problems look similar indeed but its actually different. Turkey has good prospects unlike russia. I always follow youth tournements and there are hardly russian prospects and turkey is among the best 5 youth building countries in Europe. The turkish problem was and partly is they cant develop player after a certain age. The big teams like efes and Fenerbahce pay too much for the young guys and they end up on the bench for several years without playing and also the other teams had remarkable bugdets. Thats the reason why turkey lost most of its talent from the golden generation of 95-97 generation.

The situation now is different. The TBF created therefor a Youth league in order to prepare the young guys better for the professional basketball life and more and more domestic player are integrated in the rosters with significant responsibilities.


So, in the end, which Turkish players play meaningful minutes for their clubs (in the games that matter)? Well, even Balbay can't really crack Efes's rotation. Efes has zero such players, Melih is borderline rotation player in Fener, Tofas has Baris Ermis (who is 34 y.o.) and, to some extent, Yigit Arslan, GS has Koksal (talented Ege Arar is warming the bench), Besiktas has only Kenan and 36 y.o. Veyseloglu (a mediocre player by any count) and so on. Even Russia, which suffers from similar problems (magnified by the fact that we have no domestic league and options to play on the highest level are severely limited for local players), has a more sizeable number of domestic guys who play some role for the powerhouse teams: Kurbanov for CSKA, Ponkrashov and Kolesnikov for UNICS, Shved, Zubkov and even Monya for Khimki, Kulagin, Fridzon and Khvostov for Loko, Karasyov, Voronov, Trushkin, even Valiev for Zenit. Of these Shved, Kulagin and Karasyov are leaders of their respective teams and, most probably, you'll find it hard to name a local leader for any BSL team.

hahahaha great that shows you have a shallow knowledge about the situation of turkish basketball. If you just look at Euroleague it might seem that way but the player that you mentioned are playing in the turkish superleague because there may just 5 foreigners on the roster of the teams in the turkish league. I agree with you about the experience point but except Shved no guy that you mention on the russian side a big number. They cant keep up with an Osman, Furkan Korkmaz, Ilyasova or let alone Wilbekin.

Terrorizer
05-31-2019, 01:42 AM
Ah, I can't restrain myself form adding one last thing about "then and now" (part II of my "three complaints")... despite the fact that it's early morning here and I have to prepare examination program for my univeristy students :)

Let's take a closer look at the year 2011, for example. There was a start of Canadian players going to Europe en masse but there was a similar, maybe, even more significant "Australian wave". More experienced guys like an old favourite of mine Matt Nielsen, who was still extremely useful for the teams he played (and extremely unlikeable by any team he played against), and David Andersen (definitely not a favourite of mine but still...) ready to move back to Europe (to Siena where he had a good season in 2011-12 and Siena was a EL play-offs team back then) were accompanied by still young Brad Newley with multiple seasons of successful EC/EL experience, Aleks Maric (struggling in Pao but memories of his All-Euroleague selection season in Beograd were still fresh), AJ Ogilvy getting signed by up-and-coming Valencia after briliant season in Turkey, Jingles trying to crack rotation in Barca, Nathan Jawai making his presence felt at Partizan (back then I thought that he would dominate in Europe for years to come but sadly only Boriska Diaw can play on the high level keeping that kind of diet), David Barlow playing solid in ACB, Baynes a season before the best basketball he ever played (it was in Ljubljana out of all places). And future all-NBL selection Daniel Kickert wasn't even getting a real notice playing somewhere in Poland :)

But nowadays Canada can field a whole team out of its Europe-based players (and it will be a very, very solid team, with some luck a potential medal contender in a tournament like WC) while Australia chooses only Landale and Motum among the players who are in Europe full-time. I know that the quality of domestic leagues in Canada and in Australia is incomparable and actually NBL (the Australian one) is one of the best leagues outside of Europe (obviously dismissing NBA from the picture - but I don't even view it as a "true" basketball league, it's a weird, typically American commercial enterprise which has more in common with a glossy musical than with a professional sports league). But for me such a scarity of "European Australians" would be a worrying sign, especially since Aussies still try to make a name for themselves in Europe from time to time. But it turns out that they are much less successful with that than they were some eight years ago.

Toruko
05-31-2019, 01:53 AM
Giannis last played in a FIBA competition back at 2016, he's basically in a whole another level 3 years later.

The problems are the same. The Fiba court is smaller and the teams will defend unlike in the nba. If you give giannis enough space he will jump above your head and dunk but if you dont let him speed up he is a horrible mid ranger. Giannis will of course have and impact but in order to use the advantages of Giannis you must have shooter around him but thats the problem of greece. Its probably the worst shooting team or lets say one of the in the tournament. With a non shooter like calathes you can double giannis at any time without having any fears from outside. Sloukas is just consistent in mid range or from the top and in addition there is no consistent shooter maybe except dorsey.

Roofman
05-31-2019, 05:52 AM
Terrorizer, you made me laugh when you compared the NBA to a Broadway musical. I always compared it to the WWE- some years before Jayson Williams made that comparison in Loose Balls!

The major reason there are relatively few Australians in Europe atm is that the NBL is now much better managed over the last five years or so under Larry Kestleman, in what is effectively a takeover strategy. Previously only my Perth Wildcats were profitable, with the community owned Cairns Taipans breaking even and NZ Breakers on good ground generally, but then NZ owners Paul and Liz Blackwell tipping in $1NZ million for the Breakers junior academy, run along the lines of the AIS College of Excellence or a major European set up. Now, Sydney and NZ have big time owners and Adelaide have upgraded to a 10 000 or so tennis arena, leaving only the league run/Lemanis coached Brisbane Bullets playing out of a small (3 500 or so) stadium while they seek a longer term solution with a magnate of some sort. Consequently, the majority of those Australian players mentioned above are still active in the NBL- Newley, Barlow, Jawai, Ogilvy, Kickert, with the short season, upgraded pay structure and ability to freelance post NBL season in Europe, Puerto Rico or Asia topping up their earnings. All except Ogilvy are still decent, simply meaning the Australian talent has taken a big leap forward and these players are no longer considered for (full) national team selection.

You mentioned Matty Nielsen and Aleks Maric. Nielsen is very highly regarded for his tactical brain worlwide, having served an internship at San Antonio after hanging up his boots in 2014/15. He returned there periodically, even coaching their summer league team. He was a Perth assistant, recently leaving while seeking a position somewhere in the US. The development in Australian coaching ranks sometimes gets ignored, but considering we have Nielsen, CJ Bruton, Shawn Dennis, out of contract/out of a job Rob Beveridge not employed in Australia, but having extensive coaching/playing experience overseas, that can only be a positive.

As for Maric, probably no other player anywhere comes close to polarising opinion among (true) fans because he was the ultimate system player, good in pick and roll situations, good finisher from dump offs, good rebounder........ Hopeless on the block or if the first option of a team. Serbia actually recruited him after his 2010 season at Partizan then he proceeded to be one of the most maligned Australian players ever under Brett Brown (on forums anyway). I saw a very limited amount of him during this time, so I think there was truth both ways in the coach good/player bad or player bad/coach good polemic, although not everything could be ran to Alek's strengths.

Following the threads above specifically about Turkish and Russian basketball, much debate centres of how best to develop talent, especially good, but not NBA ready talent, as the bigger Euro clubs rarely have a rotation player under 23 or 24. Relating that to the Australian situation, although not familiar with the full circumstances of the signing, Landale would have been able to demand a reasonable sum out of college as a 211 cm WCC player of the year. I doubt hometown Melbourne United would have had say, $150K available for him with salary cap constraints, so Europe was the only real option, and I was happy do see him sign with Partizan for their proud record in development.

Cooks, as the son of now Wollongong assistant coach Eric Cooks, might have wanted to play for his home club in the same way Emmett Naar also did. I imagine even a second tier German club could offer substantially more than them.

Regarding young talent coming through, I have followed Dejan Vasiljevic somewhat since he has been at University of Miami. He is a decent prospect, a shooter with some ability to create his own shot, and while possessing some playmaking skills, in the old days would have been considered a shooting guard in a point guard's body. Bogut rates him highly, will be interesting to see if he can crack the NBA after his senior year at Miami, I am certain that he will get a long look in future times, maybe when 27-30, but unless they go deep in the NCAA tournament and he wows NBA scouts/camps, won't be an immediate NBA player (Jack White and Noi at Texas Christian are probably similar, don't know enough about these guys because I haven't seen them in full games).

Anthony Drmic has done decent work in two years at Adelaide, I feel that after overcoming nerve damage in his feet he may be able to translate his Boise State form to the NBL. If you didn't know, Greenwood chose an unusual career path after finishing at New Mexico four years ago. He signed with Perth, wanted to be an Olympian and then changed sports - to become a professional Australian rules footballer with the Adelaide Crows. This is becoming part of a trend, with Tom Wilson and 2016 national under 17s representative Patrick Bines also following that path.

Terrorizer
05-31-2019, 06:00 AM
I assume you are russian. Well the problems look similar indeed but its actually different. Turkey has good prospects unlike russia. I always follow youth tournements and there are hardly russian prospects and turkey is among the best 5 youth building countries in Europe.
All the other stuff I (hopefully) answer later but here I'll make just one note. I also follow youth tournaments and while Turkey's rise there in the last 5 years or so is certainly impressive (though most of your prospects are too hyped up for no obvious reasons), I think that we should also look at a bigger picture in a longer run. While Russia doesn't produce as much good prospects as it was once the case and certainly we're lagging (far) behind European leaders (i.e. France, Serbia and Spain), characterizing Russia as a country "with hardly any propsects" is still a big stretch.

So if we consider a time period between 2004 (annual EuroBaskets for youth categories started and, well, the guys who played U16 then are still only 30 y.o.) and the year 2013 (Russian basketball federation disintegrated in a bloody mess which had grave consequences for any domestic national team, especially youth ones, all of which were left alone and for some time functioned in a 'thin air', in a manner typical for some Malawi NT), then Russia NT results are the following:

U-20: 6 finishes in Top 8, 4 finishes in Top 4, 1 medal, gold in domestic 2005 tournament which I remember oh so well.

U-18: 7 finishes in Top 8, 2 finishes in Top 4 and one medal - silver in 2010.

U-16: 7 finishes in Top 8, 2 finishes in Top 4, both of them medal ones - silvers in 2004 and 2006.

Yes, Turkey has better stats in the same period (actually worse for U-20 but slightly better for U-18 and significantly better for U-16), but for the country with "hardly any prospects" it's somewhat surprising since, most probably, you will characterize all the countries with clearly better statline - Spain, Serbia, France, Lithuania and Turkey (Greece and Croatia have more medal finishes but also suffer from instability of their results while Italy is similar to Russia... all the others are far behind) - as the ones who "have the best European projects". So result-wise immediately after the countries "with top projects" there goes a country of talentless, sloppy hacks, a country with "hardly any projects". Weird stuff...

Yet the other question is how these prospects are developed. One telling example you most probably haven't heard about is Serdar Annaev. Back in the day he got good press from the likes of Jonathan Givony and it looked like soon we'll have a very solid pass-first PG for the NT. Last season he had 6.4 ppg + 3.8 apg playing for Russian second-tier league's mid-level team. He was born in 1994. That's how we waste our prospects.

P.S. I've just checked the ratings of 2000 - 2002 born prospects at eurospects.com. In the rankings there are three Russian guys (Savkov is 19th among the 2002 YOB, Zakharov is 18th among 2001 YOB and Mikhailovskiy is 10th among 2000 YOB) and four Turks (Gorener is 12th, Sengun is 16th and David Mutaf is 25th among 2002 YOB while Gultekin is 24th among 2000 YOB). Not that much of a difference. Especially having in mind that France has 4 + 6 + 3, Serbia 6 + 5 + 1, Spain 2 + 1 + 4, Croatia 1 + 1 + 4, Lithuania 2 + 2 + 2 and even Germany 3 + 2 + 3 players in the same 2000, 2001 and 2002 rankings. But all these ratings are hardly an adequate projection even of players potential, not to talk about the level they will achieve in the future.

P.P.S.



hahahaha great that shows you have a shallow knowledge about the situation of turkish basketball.

Chances are extremely high that I watched many times more BSL games than you have watched VTB's ones but still try to think about "why does such a discrepancy takes place". Or just check Semyon Antonov's stats in VTB league and in JordiLeague (and we have no foreign/domestic players limits in VTB League). "True" Efes rotation is the one they use against the best opposition, not against some Buyukcekmece.

Toruko
05-31-2019, 12:00 PM
All the other stuff I (hopefully) answer later but here I'll make just one note. I also follow youth tournaments and while Turkey's rise there in the last 5 years or so is certainly impressive (though most of your prospects are too hyped up for no obvious reasons), I think that we should also look at a bigger picture in a longer run. While Russia doesn't produce as much good prospects as it was once the case and certainly we're lagging (far) behind European leaders (i.e. France, Serbia and Spain), characterizing Russia as a country "with hardly any propsects" is still a big stretch.

Thats a different story. After the generation of Kulagin and Vorontsevich there was nothing what Russia produced significantly. I was talking about the situation now and even this year turkey is a medal candidate for all youth tournements, Russia should be in division B in one U20 when i am not mistaken. It wont bring you any information to count the medals from 15 years ago. It shows only that Basketball lost blood in that time.


P.S. I've just checked the ratings of 2000 - 2002 born prospects at eurospects.com. In the rankings there are three Russian guys (Savkov is 19th among the 2002 YOB, Zakharov is 18th among 2001 YOB and Mikhailovskiy is 10th among 2000 YOB) and four Turks (Gorener is 12th, Sengun is 16th and David Mutaf is 25th among 2002 YOB while Gultekin is 24th among 2000 YOB). Not that much of a difference. Especially having in mind that France has 4 + 6 + 3, Serbia 6 + 5 + 1, Spain 2 + 1 + 4, Croatia 1 + 1 + 4, Lithuania 2 + 2 + 2 and even Germany 3 + 2 + 3 players in the same 2000, 2001 and 2002 rankings. But all these ratings are hardly an adequate projection even of players potential, not to talk about the level they will achieve in the future.

Well the difference is that Turkey achieves always good results in the youth tournements. In the last U20 (5th), U17 WC (fifth), U16(3th) after having beaten france by 30. I guess Russia has just a good 2001 generation but considering the developments of the last 5 years its just fluke.

Germany has a remarkable youth development in the last years thats true. I expect much from Bonga, Hartenstein, Moritz Wagner in the following years but Germany had always good Bigs and also the guys who are mentioned in eurospects are mostly Bigs like Ariel Hukporti etc. Just Len Schoorman of the frankfurt skyliners is a mentionable short. Unfortunately he didnt play in the U16 youth tournament last time so i couldnt follow his developments properly. Ariel Hukporti had a really bad U16 Tournament btw.

And I was not talking about Serbia, LTU or other countries anyway. We are just talking about Russia, Germany and Argentina. :)


Chances are extremely high that I watched many times more BSL games than you have watched VTB's ones but still try to think about "why does such a discrepancy takes place". Or just check Semyon Antonov's stats in VTB league and in JordiLeague (and we have no foreign/domestic players limits in VTB League). "True" Efes rotation is the one they use against the best opposition, not against some Buyukcekmece.

I watch enough Eurocup, champions league, euro league games to have a good view of all players that are mentionable. Most of Russian player are Eurocup Level or some who have roles on the CSKA roster like Kurbanov are just Bigs with almost no ball-handling skills. As I said before Russia doesnt stand a chance against the current turkish roster but Russia had luck to be "elected" in group B in the wc so quarterfinals are achievable now.

Terrorizer
06-02-2019, 05:53 AM
This reply is partly directed at Mojo, and mainly to Terroizer, mainly to do with the assessments of players and leagues.

Well, finally I have a time for a proper reply :D


What many, many people in Australia, Europe and the Americas fail to understand is that player's roles evolve through time, and their performance in one league, club, international competition or context is not necessarily indicative of what they will produce in others.

If this is (at least partially) directed at me, then maybe you actually misunderstood me. I totally agree with you about this. Coach's trust, natural evolving, comfortable surroundings - all these are the factors which can force the same player to make a steep upwards trajectory in the quality of his playing (and with the lack of thepositive situation in these factors downwards slope is highly possible).


So for example, some dickhead US writer disparaged the NBL seeing that Isaac Humphries was the 2017/18 NBL rookie of the year after playing 10 minutes per game at Kentucky, yet he received minutes on the worst team on the league (Sydney Kings), he was a bare bones 19 years old in his sophomore season at Kentucky and his game and body have evolved to the extent that he saw a ten day contract for Atlanta.

Word, man. It's so much true. It's often when you'll see people arguing how much European basketball is inferior to NBA because many of the dominant players here (like de Colo or Tavares) failed in NBA but somehow they don't see the hard facts that Kristaps Porzingis instantly played during his rookie NBA season in a much more productive manner than he ever did for Sevilla and that future "NBA star" Bricky was actually playing worse and worse in the last four years before his switch to NBA as clear signs of NBA's inferior quality.


I know about and watched Joe Ingles at Barca/Tel Aviv (maybe a dozen times in full games?), where his statistics varied from DNP/CD to bench minutes, to at times obtaining Euroleague votes. His emergence in Utah was for defence primarily as a foil to Hayward, and he was one of the very few players in the NBA who a quality coach (Snyder) told to shoot more because the offence breaks down if you pass up semi open shots and only play as a glue guy making hockey assists. His work with Zak Guthrie also tightened up his shooting release, but I don't have a problem with believing an Australian player reaches his peak around 30 years old, because our system of both junior and NBL development in initial phases means it is a longer path to the magical 10 000 hours of excellence Malcolm Gladwell waffles on about.

Dunno, man. I remember Ingles all too well back in his European days. It may surprise you but I liked him very much. I mean, he was such a scrappy, clumsy, bumbling player who never exceled in any given aspect of the game of basketball. But he tried so much, he was such a hard-working, diligent guy, so tenacious, so stubborn in learning how to carve a decent niche for himself. So to see a player completely devoid of any basketball finesse to prosper on the highest European level was heart-warming. Yet him evolving a NBA semi-star is still a riddle for aeons. Yep, it's true that I rarely can force myself to watch a full NBA game yet every now and then I watch a bit here and a glimpse there. So from what I've witnessed, I see the same Jingles, only less mobile, less zealous and assidious (you can't play that hard and passionately each time during a 84 games regular season), but clearly more confident and with a somewhat more slick shooting mechanics.


Similarly, Patty Mills had to overcome career threatening injuries in the early parts of his pro career, and while obviously still streaky, he has added moving without the ball, a mid range pull up and the ability to run some pick and pop action to his game when he isn't firing from the land of plenty. His never was and never will be a floor general, but Popovic loves him for his locker room presence and he has publicly praised him for his ability to get the defence organised, his energy, getting the team into offensive sets, basic things that a lot of players at his level have no interest doing. As it is, he has probably reached his ceiling as a player, but he was outstanding in Rio and he has learned to score more efficiently over time in FIBA competition.

I totally agree with your assessment of Patty's advantages but still he suffers from the same deficiencies. He's often ballhoging (especially playing for Aussies), his shot selection is regularly very questionable and it can become completely insane once he in a mood to win it all by himself (also happens more often whe he plays for Boomers) and generally he often comes with infuriatingly retarded decisions when choosing proper offensive scheme (running the floor with the ball like Usain Bolt on dope when the team needs a methodic, properly organized offense and hogging the ball stagnantly when you need to stretch a shaky opponents defense with a good ball movement). Also in any given evening he can try to outshine (sometimes successfully) Milos Teodosic as an ultimate turnover king. Also he's less fast now as the age catches up with his enviable speed. I mean, he's a good player nevertheless as everything you wrote is also true but his performance can be either blessing or curse for his team and with Patty you can never guess which of these options will come to life this time.


Matthew Dellavedova is an elite playmaker, that Australia lacked when Shane Heal bricked us out of a medal in 2000, overall providing a good assist/turnover ratio, hockey assists, a high 30s three points shooter in addition to intangibles/hard screens etc, plays borderline dirty blah, blah, blah. These things hold true especially in FIBA ball, where he is more than a hustle player.

I saw him playing recently and frankly I was in awe how much he degraded. Maybe, it was a couple of bad evenings for him but somehow I doubt that. I remeber him in his college days and back then I thought that he's a player perfectly cut for Europe (not for the teams of Real Madrid caliber and not even for Valencia, but for some solid teams like GranCa). Not an insanely individually talented player but someone who reads the game, organizes offense, plays hard, excels in defensive intensity and can decently shoot with his feet set. I was sure that even if he attempts to jump to NBA, then it will be an easy and generally painless failure. It turned out I was wrong.

But now he's not even that good at defense. And his shot looked just plain bad, adding another layer of incompetence to his dubious performance as a floor general. I guess, you still can use him for a limited playing time as some sort of ane 'energizer' off the bench who also intimidates backcourt leaders of opposing team with his pesky and often dirty defense. But that's all. Maybe, I am wrong but from what I've seen he looks more like a sloppy, talentless, slow-thinking and slow-moving hack barely reminding of a promising, if raw and hot-headed young player he was when playing for Gaels. It seems that NBA made him much, much worse.


Baynes too, has added range to his game, while being an elite per minute rebounder and rim protector (ask Stevens, Stan Van Gundy etc).

He's so slow, heavy-footed and rusty these days. Yep, he added range (the only thing which got better for him... yet he already hit long two-point jumpers in his early days in Europe) and now can fool "traditional centers" with ocassional three-pointers (but his shooting mechaincs is so sluggish that this can only be used if there is noone in a 4 meters radius of him to close out) but other than that... phew, he's bad. The only thing he really excels in nowadays is his (in)famous push-and-shove tactics in offense when he runs straight to the basket (facing it), trying to push his opponent out of his way with both hands. I wonder where does he get some blocked shots in his stats since it looks that he jumps so low that he barely can dunk. Rebounding numbers are understandable in NBA - most of the time there's noone contesting those after all these iso-finishing fadeaway jumpshots NBA is so famous of. And I remember this guy as an agile and really athletic youngster who exceled in pnr-focused plays.


Most NBA teams would want both on their team in limited roles

Dunno, maybe you're right but I don't think it tells a lot about their objective worth, especially in FIBA basketball.


but I think I have made my point about changing roles, evolving players, systems, the effect of refereeing, having the full confidence of coaches etc....

In fact, I totally agree with you on that. And your Torrey Craig example is really a fitting one. PJ Tucker's career path is also illustrative.


Agree that Broekhoff and lock down defender, but injury plagued Dante Exum will be missed in the short term.

Dunno about current Exum's form, especially after all these injuries, but his struggles in NBA is some sort of a mystery to me. I thought that if he adds some muscle and becomes simply long instead of lanky, he would dominate there, even despite being a non-shooter. Not a player I truly adore but I thought that he will encounter no problems in adapting to NBA and even progressing his game there. I haven't seen much of his playing as of lately but somehow something went wrong... and I'm not talking only about injuries.

I also totally agree with you that getting into FIBA Asia is highly beneficial to local basketball and national team system. The level of opposition is low in Asia (joining South America would be better for Australia from this point of view) but the experience your players gain from it is much more valuable than your eternal duels with Kiwis.


4. One reason why I suspect Australian basketball is respected by in-the-know people stateside is that increasing Australian influence in NBA circles.

For me, it's a dubious advantage. Talking about European coaches, I can say that generally those who go there are either bad or are in a stage of extremely rapid decline. It seems that NBA catches up on European coaches once they become totally useless in Europe. For example, Messina was completely atrocious since 2008 for any team he coached (Real Madrid, CSKA or Italian NT) but his NBA career seems to be on the rise. And the same is true for Scariolo who completely 'lost it' once 2000s morphed into 2010s. And for Spahija also. Blatt is a more complicated example but generally now his coaching looks worse than it was before his NBA stint. So NBA is a weird world and while close familiarity with their standards of everyday organization, training facilities, different equipment, 'advanced stats' usage and similar stuff can be indeed useful, I question how much progress comes from coaching or even players interchange.


A final thing to mention to Terrorizer is the relative quality of leagues. I doubt that European leagues are many times better than the NBL by judging results. So, vs NBA teams in the US, NBL teams have run close a few times in two years only, have no doubt that they will eventually break through. As it is, only four Euroleague teams (CSKA *2, Fenerbache, Maccabi Tel Aviv v Toronto in 2006) have won in North America. That was also reflected in 1995 McDonalds Open, 1981 World Club Championship etc for NBL v Euro champion. There is still a way to go, so while the ACB have contributed nearly 40 players to the NBA in legitimate two way exchange, the number of NBL to NBA players is growing, and I don't think it is a monumental increase in quality over the last few years, simply Australian clubs, officials and players creating links, while streaming means the NBA can follow games and prospects here without the time of cost of always flying out personnel.

Exhibition games are generally useless and sadly there is no meaningful competition where NBL and European teams can face each other (or, at least, the same competition). The only two things we can realistically compare is the quality of the players pool and the quality of the game itself (both are very subjective matters). I rarely watch NBL games (time difference also plays a role and, truth to be said, a lack of true interest is also involved) but the quality of players is moving upwards and this especially concerns foreign players (read, US players). Also it seems that your domestic league moves in a right direction in matters like organization, attractiveness to fans and media and smart PR moves.

Yet if we mention "European leagues", it is too wide of a description. These leagues are very different. Some are clearly worse than Australian one (Portuguese or Danish, for example), some are clearly better (ACB or VTB). Judging by players pool (and in- and out-flows of players between Australia and Europe which happen often gives a valuable perspective), I'll put Australia as an upper-middle league in Europe. Certainly above the likes of Poland or Romania but only slightly above Belgium (which progressed a lot recently, Belgian team played in BCL Final Four this year) and slightly below Greece, not to talk about France/Germany/Italy/Turkey/Russia/Spain which are all clearly better.


The major reason there are relatively few Australians in Europe atm is that the NBL is now much better managed over the last five years or so under Larry Kestleman, in what is effectively a takeover strategy. Previously only my Perth Wildcats were profitable, with the community owned Cairns Taipans breaking even and NZ Breakers on good ground generally, but then NZ owners Paul and Liz Blackwell tipping in $1NZ million for the Breakers junior academy, run along the lines of the AIS College of Excellence or a major European set up. Now, Sydney and NZ have big time owners and Adelaide have upgraded to a 10 000 or so tennis arena, leaving only the league run/Lemanis coached Brisbane Bullets playing out of a small (3 500 or so) stadium while they seek a longer term solution with a magnate of some sort.

The fact that clubs are moving to profitability while not downgrading the level of competition is great. In Europe most of the team sports is deficit-generating. And this even includes the most popular sports here which is soccer.


Consequently, the majority of those Australian players mentioned above are still active in the NBL- Newley, Barlow, Jawai, Ogilvy, Kickert, with the short season, upgraded pay structure and ability to freelance post NBL season in Europe, Puerto Rico or Asia topping up their earnings. All except Ogilvy are still decent, simply meaning the Australian talent has taken a big leap forward and these players are no longer considered for (full) national team selection.

Well, improved status of local league is only one part of this "consequently" implication. I mean, Leandrinho Barbosa and Anderson Varejao are also playing in local NBB league now but that's not exactly because that league is on par with NBA these days but because they aren't exactly sought after by NBA teams. All the guys we discuss here had some good stints in Europe (short as in Ogilvy's case or long as in Newley's one) but one thing that unites them is that before moving back to their native land all of them gradually lost their status here in Europe. You can check their stats but every one of them either went from a stronger league to a weaker one (like Kickert from Spain - where he failed - to Poland to Ukraine) or got their stats (and game quality also) worsening (Newley in his late GranCa stage). It's not that they came (back) to NBL when their European careers were on the rise. Quite contrary, all of them were in decline before this move and most were able to rejuvenate their careers in NBL which isn't very mush indicative of intrinsic quality of this league. And, most probably, the fact that these players are no longer considered as NT material has something to do with their age. I mean, Barlow is 35 y.o., Newley is 34 y.o., even Jawai is 32 y.o. (and weighs 35 kgs too many). Look, Monya and Vyal'tsev are also not considered for Russian NT right now but if they were 5-7 years younger, they most probably would make the cut.

To get things straight, I'm not trying to disparage NBL, most probably, it's one of the best non-European professional basketball league, alongside with the likes of Puerto-Rico and Argentina, and I'm glad to see it on the rise. But I suspect that it is still far behind top European leagues. And I'm totally sure that playing for top leagues in Europe would be hugely beneficial for the best Australian players (not for Ben Simmons though, he's where he belongs to, since he is an NBA type of player).


Terrorizer, you made me laugh when you compared the NBA to a Broadway musical. I always compared it to the WWE- some years before Jayson Williams made that comparison in Loose Balls!

I've got a whole bunch of NBA comparisons - some of them made some buzz on these boards many years ago :)


You mentioned Matty Nielsen and Aleks Maric. Nielsen is very highly regarded for his tactical brain worlwide, having served an internship at San Antonio after hanging up his boots in 2014/15. He returned there periodically, even coaching their summer league team. He was a Perth assistant, recently leaving while seeking a position somewhere in the US.

Matty Nielsen finished his career in my hometown club :) And despite the age catching up with him (his best years were in Lieutuvos Rytas and, especially, Valencia) he was very useful in a limited playing time he was on court. Also for a guy who was a perfect epitome of basketball grit, he was such a smart one, he read the game likefew PGs can.


The development in Australian coaching ranks sometimes gets ignored, but considering we have Nielsen, CJ Bruton, Shawn Dennis, out of contract/out of a job Rob Beveridge not employed in Australia, but having extensive coaching/playing experience overseas, that can only be a positive.

Oh, I remeber CJ as a player, by the way :)

Terrorizer
06-02-2019, 05:54 AM
As for Maric, probably no other player anywhere comes close to polarising opinion among (true) fans because he was the ultimate system player, good in pick and roll situations, good finisher from dump offs, good rebounder........ Hopeless on the block or if the first option of a team. Serbia actually recruited him after his 2010 season at Partizan then he proceeded to be one of the most maligned Australian players ever under Brett Brown (on forums anyway). I saw a very limited amount of him during this time, so I think there was truth both ways in the coach good/player bad or player bad/coach good polemic, although not everything could be ran to Alek's strengths.

Yeah, I remember all the drama with the Serbian NT recrutiment :) Trust me, in his best times he was a terrific pick-n-roll player. Basically, he was close to a one-trick pony (with some not too rare occurences of interesting back-to-basket moves here and there rounding up his offensive game) and for a big guy he was slightly anachrosnistic even for those times but his pick-n-roll efificiency in a team which used him right was off-the-charts. I liked him, even if he looked somewhat of a headcase :)


Regarding young talent coming through, I have followed Dejan Vasiljevic somewhat since he has been at University of Miami. He is a decent prospect, a shooter with some ability to create his own shot, and while possessing some playmaking skills, in the old days would have been considered a shooting guard in a point guard's body. Bogut rates him highly, will be interesting to see if he can crack the NBA after his senior year at Miami, I am certain that he will get a long look in future times, maybe when 27-30, but unless they go deep in the NCAA tournament and he wows NBA scouts/camps, won't be an immediate NBA player (Jack White and Noi at Texas Christian are probably similar, don't know enough about these guys because I haven't seen them in full games).

Somehow I thought that he graduated last year and was surprised his surname springing up in NCAA statsheets this winter. I haven't seen Miami games this season (if I recall it right, this season was bad for them), so don't really know how he's looking right now. And, yes, I forgot that it was Greenwood who changed to AFL, now I remember reading about this case some years ago. Well, it's somewhat surprising given the fact that his built and physique weren't indicative of such a move (if I'm not mistaken Aussie football is similar to softened rugby or something like that?). And I remember that Drmic played locally. My question was purely rhetorical though (English clearly isn't my native language, so misunderstanding is my fault) :) I was not intending to ask "where are they now" question (though your answer is totally welcome :)) but my point was just to ruminate on how players who should be considered for NT or at the very least its extended roster, if we are to project from the promise they showed in the youth categories, somehow fail to make this "big next step" for a variety of reasons.


As I said before Russia doesnt stand a chance against the current turkish roster but Russia had luck to be "elected" in group B in the wc so quarterfinals are achievable now.
Never mind the team you are rooting for, you better not to write stuff like this. A team like Belgium definitely stands a chance against the current Turkish roster... and even against the current Spanish roster, though a significantly slimmer one. It's a modern basketball where difference in quality becomes much less recognizable than it was. And when you write down an ideal roster for "your team" with guard spots occupied by Balbay, Ozmirzak, Wilbekin and Mahmutoglu, then this sort of sentiment certainly seems too brash and cocky.

P.S. You are certainly not very knowledgeable about Russian basketball ("generation of Vorontsevich and Kulagin" is like "generation of Kerem Tunceri and Baris Ermis", one of these guys is 5 years older than the other). And our main problems are with bigs, especially on C position, since backcourt is much more packed, though there are some awful injuries this spring (Khvostov and Strebkov out of the game for roughly half a year each). Without injuries, our potential backcourt options are Kulagin the Elder, Shved, Fridzon, Khvostov, Strebkov, Voronov, Kolesnikov, Baburin, Ponkrashov and younger guys like Denis Zakharov, Ivan Ukhov and Misha Kulagin. Well, it's not "true depth" a la France but it's not that bad either (certainly better than Turkey).

Levenspiel
06-02-2019, 08:41 AM
As I said before Russia doesnt stand a chance against the current turkish roster but Russia had luck to be "elected" in group B in the wc so quarterfinals are achievable now.
Not sure where this confidence is coming from. It cannot really be coming from our roster, can it? I know you "explained" it above, I just cannot get my head around it.

Balbay - ÷zmizrak
Wilbekin - Mahmutoglu
Osman - Korkmaz
Ilyasova - Gecim
Semih - Yurtseven

here, Ozmizrak and Gecim are 1-level lower players than the rest with their incurable inconsistency (You said I didn't watch enough BSL games to know, which is fair, but I watched Ozmizrak in the EL and winced a lot. Gecim's stats are still mediocre: 8.1-3.2-3.4 with low FG% in BSL). Semih Erden played well last time, but he's another head case. We only have Osman, Wilbekin, Ilyasova, Korkmaz as decent players here, with Mahmutoglu's potential to light it up. that's far from making me optimistic.

by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.



Other than that, who are the main candidates for your national team's roster? Wilbekin/Balbay/Sipahi (I hope there are no guys like Sinan Guler anymore?) - Korkmaz/Mahmutoglu/Koksal - Osman/Gecim - M-me Ilyasova (whose age, like that of any grand dame, remains clouded in mystery)/Turen - Erden/Yurtseven (?)/Sanli. Well, it's hardly a powerhouse's roster. There are zero extra-class players here (no, one stat-wise good season in one of the worst NBA teams doesn't make Cedi a player of this caliber) and most of these players are having big trouble with securing playing time in the games that matter. And some of them are also very inexperienced and raw.

for the international level, Ilyasova used to be that player. cannot predict how he'll fare now with his 35 years of age (hardly a mystery by now). Osman may break out, he was not just a stat-sheet filler in the Cavs, he's actually growing. well. but yes, he's not the extra class, which we do not have any.

okanial
06-02-2019, 10:02 AM
Not sure where this confidence is coming from. It cannot really be coming from our roster, can it? I know you "explained" it above, I just cannot get my head around it.

Balbay - ÷zmizrak
Wilbekin - Mahmutoglu
Osman - Korkmaz
Ilyasova - Gecim
Semih - Yurtseven

here, Ozmizrak and Gecim are 1-level lower players than the rest with their incurable inconsistency (You said I didn't watch enough BSL games to know, which is fair, but I watched Ozmizrak in the EL and winced a lot. Gecim's stats are still mediocre: 8.1-3.2-3.4 with low FG% in BSL). Semih Erden played well last time, but he's another head case. We only have Osman, Wilbekin, Ilyasova, Korkmaz as decent players here, with Mahmutoglu's potential to light it up. that's far from making me optimistic.

by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.


for the international level, Ilyasova used to be that player. cannot predict how he'll fare now with his 35 years of age (hardly a mystery by now). Osman may break out, he was not just a stat-sheet filler in the Cavs, he's actually growing. well. but yes, he's not the extra class, which we do not have any.

I think my position is some where between you two. We are not too great but not too bad either. We played Russia without Ilyasova Last time and the game was a thriller. Cedi showed he can carry a team in Europe by himself Last time. Adding Ilyasova and Wilbekin to that roster with better Cedi and Furkan carries us a tier above. But most of our players are really inconsistent. We need Melih to be able to shoot over 40% and Semih to be strong under the rim. I believe in Semih more than I believe in Melih

Toruko
06-02-2019, 12:33 PM
Never mind the team you are rooting for, you better not to write stuff like this. A team like Belgium definitely stands a chance against the current Turkish roster... and even against the current Spanish roster, though a significantly slimmer one. It's a modern basketball where difference in quality becomes much less recognizable than it was. And when you write down an ideal roster for "your team" with guard spots occupied by Balbay, Ozmirzak, Wilbekin and Mahmutoglu, then this sort of sentiment certainly seems too brash and cocky.

Well then we agree on disagree. So except USA all teams can defeat the other on a good day, even though it is in 4 of 100 games. In that point I agree with you. In everything else dont get me wrong... I think you write nonsense. We use a point forward named Osman as playmaker by the way.

Well since both teams wont face each other its just speculation and Russia as I said has too few prospects to substitute the few player on the court. So I am pretty sure that Russia wont even be mentionable next Eurobasket.

The only Player that I respect on Russian side is Shved.

Toruko
06-02-2019, 12:58 PM
by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.



by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.


Well in 2015 Turkey defeated Germany in Berlin with a much weaker roster. I was there. Six, seven month ago Turkey played Germany in the VTG Supercup in Hamburg. I was there. Turkey defeated a respectable German roster with SchrŲder, Kleber, Zirbes etc without braking a sweat and the Germans gave everything.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGoil_JvlhE

So I really dont know why you guys overvalue teams like Germany or Russia. Many teams are carried of 2 or 3 good guys at max. We have with Korkmaz, Osman, Ilyasova and Wilbekin four scorer who can carry this team scoringwise. I understand it Furkan, Cedi etc didnt show up this season but quality is still there. Being humble is good but dont be afraid of teams like Russia or Germany. We are definitely far better.


I think my position is some where between you two. We are not too great but not too bad either. We played Russia without Ilyasova Last time and the game was a thriller. Cedi showed he can carry a team in Europe by himself Last time. Adding Ilyasova and Wilbekin to that roster with better Cedi and Furkan carries us a tier above. But most of our players are really inconsistent. We need Melih to be able to shoot over 40% and Semih to be strong under the rim. I believe in Semih more than I believe in Melih

I am with you in most of what you have written but i dont think that Melih will get much playtime, although he seems to be in shape. I am also not really worried about other the performances of player like Korkmaz or Osman. Actually, Turkey is really weak under the rim. Especially if Yurt7 doesnt come, it will force turkey to play with Sertac Sanli who is a catastrophy.

Anyway the goal is clear. Beat Japan and the Czechs in the first round and probably Montenegro and Greece in the second. Thats the max that is achievable this time.

Victorious
06-02-2019, 03:51 PM
The problems are the same. The Fiba court is smaller and the teams will defend unlike in the nba. If you give giannis enough space he will jump above your head and dunk but if you dont let him speed up he is a horrible mid ranger. Giannis will of course have and impact but in order to use the advantages of Giannis you must have shooter around him but thats the problem of greece. Its probably the worst shooting team or lets say one of the in the tournament. With a non shooter like calathes you can double giannis at any time without having any fears from outside. Sloukas is just consistent in mid range or from the top and in addition there is no consistent shooter maybe except dorsey.

To double team Giannis is not enough. He is being double teamed in the NBA in every game. Plays are being prepared only to stop him. Every Greek player will have more space because of him. And at the end of the day they are key players for top EL teams. Not to mention the amount of rebounds and blocks Greece will have on the defensive end. Consider the defensive value of someone like Giannis on a Greek team. He could very well be the missing link. Besides, if Greece lacks some offensive talent as some assume, then they will defend like crazy. A far more suiting style for a team like Greece.

Toruko
06-02-2019, 03:58 PM
To double team Giannis is not enough. He is being double teamed in the NBA in every game. Plays are being prepared only to stop him. Every Greek player will have more space because of him. And at the end of the day they are key players for top EL teams. Not to mention the amount of rebounds and blocks Greece will have on the defensive end. Consider the defensive value of someone like Giannis on a Greek team. He could very well be the missing link. Besides, if Greece lacks some offensive talent as some assume, then they will defend like crazy. A far more suiting style for a team like Greece.

Its always the same how you stop a non-shooting guy. Form a wall in the paint and force him to shoot. The key is not if Giannis has an impact or not. It doesnt matter if he scores 30 points or not. As long as the other player cant get a rithm there will be no problem. But he will be a big problem on the defensive end but i am not sure if he will give everything after such a tiring season.

Toruko
06-02-2019, 04:13 PM
Not sure where this confidence is coming from. It cannot really be coming from our roster, can it? I know you "explained" it above, I just cannot get my head around it.

Balbay - ÷zmizrak
Wilbekin - Mahmutoglu
Osman - Korkmaz
Ilyasova - Gecim
Semih - Yurtseven

here, Ozmizrak and Gecim are 1-level lower players than the rest with their incurable inconsistency (You said I didn't watch enough BSL games to know, which is fair, but I watched Ozmizrak in the EL and winced a lot. Gecim's stats are still mediocre: 8.1-3.2-3.4 with low FG% in BSL). Semih Erden played well last time, but he's another head case. We only have Osman, Wilbekin, Ilyasova, Korkmaz as decent players here, with Mahmutoglu's potential to light it up. that's far from making me optimistic.


look, if you take Gecim for example... Banvit lost 2 of its scorers Moore and Neal and Gecim had to take over with Guys like Hazer and Atar. Of course they are skilled and talented but not ready to lift bsl level right now. Nobody said that Gecim is a scorer but he had to score. In the national Team his role will be totally different. 90% of the balls will be used by Wilbekin, Osman, Furkan and Ilyasova. He just has to create for others and he is great in that. In a team with better scorers he would have averaged at least 8 assists. Balbay just has to "take out" the playmaker like he always does and nails open 3 pointer.

The other point is our playing style. We use Cedi Osman as point forward so he decides what to do on the court most of the time, sometimes, seldom, it is Korkmaz so we are blessed with wings who can ballhandle on a very high level

cagney
06-02-2019, 09:57 PM
Latest reports indicate Kemba Walker is committed to the US team and James Harden and Anthony Davis are still likely to commit. Zion Williamson and Donovan Mitchell are also under consideration. This is all per Marc Stein.

I had read a report previously that Kevin Love was interested in trying out for the team.

Kyrie Irving had done an interview for FIBA’s website a while back that seemed to indicate some interest in participating but hard to say that means much.

Besides Lebron confirming he wouldn’t participate there are already a number of players from the player pool unavailable due to injury... John Wall, Victor Oladipo, Paul George, Blake Griffin, perhaps Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant and Demarcus Cousins. I’m certainly not suggesting all or even any of these players would have been a part of the team but the injuries have thinned the pool out for sure. I’d be shocked if Kawhi Leonard decided to participate.

All that said, it’s hard to count on the reliability of any reports until players are actually on the court.

mojo13
06-05-2019, 08:42 PM
Latest reports indicate Kemba Walker is committed to the US team and James Harden and Anthony Davis are still likely to commit. Zion Williamson and Donovan Mitchell are also under consideration. This is all per Marc Stein.

I had read a report previously that Kevin Love was interested in trying out for the team.

Kyrie Irving had done an interview for FIBA’s website a while back that seemed to indicate some interest in participating but hard to say that means much.

Besides Lebron confirming he wouldn’t participate there are already a number of players from the player pool unavailable due to injury... John Wall, Victor Oladipo, Paul George, Blake Griffin, perhaps Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant and Demarcus Cousins. I’m certainly not suggesting all or even any of these players would have been a part of the team but the injuries have thinned the pool out for sure. I’d be shocked if Kawhi Leonard decided to participate.

All that said, it’s hard to count on the reliability of any reports until players are actually on the court.

More names coming out for the USA training camp roster:
https://www.espn.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/26904472/harden-davis-part-usa-hoop-roster

Damian Lillard
CJ McCollum,
James Harden
Eric Gordon
Jayson Tatum
Donovan Mitchell
Khris Middleton
P.J. Tucker
Kyle Kuzma
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Anthony Davis
Brook Lopez
Andre Drummond

and another tough-minded veteran, Denver's Paul Millsap, is also a possibility, league sources told ESPN.
probably a few more to come to get it to 18 or so. didnt see Kemba Walker in this ESPN report but it was mentioned in others.

That should be enough right there. Doubt anyone can touch a team with AD, Lillard, Harden with the right role players around them.

usagre
06-05-2019, 10:32 PM
More names coming out for the USA training camp roster:
https://www.espn.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/26904472/harden-davis-part-usa-hoop-roster

Damian Lillard
CJ McCollum,
James Harden
Eric Gordon
Jayson Tatum
Donovan Mitchell
Khris Middleton
P.J. Tucker
Kyle Kuzma
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Anthony Davis
Brook Lopez
Andre Drummond

and another tough-minded veteran, Denver's Paul Millsap, is also a possibility, league sources told ESPN.
probably a few more to come to get it to 18 or so. didnt see Kemba Walker in this ESPN report but it was mentioned in others.

That should be enough right there. Doubt anyone can touch a team with AD, Lillard, Harden with the right role players around them.

This definitely looks reasonable and follows the precedent set in all other previous World Championship USA/NBA teams.
An overall B level team USA just like ‘94, ‘06, ‘10 and ‘14. 2002 as an exception was more like a C level team.
So B tier or level players sprinkled in with a couple of A level players is what it appears like.

Dtown
06-05-2019, 11:03 PM
This definitely looks reasonable and follows the precedent set in all other previous World Championship USA/NBA teams.
An overall B level team USA just like ‘94, ‘06, ‘10 and ‘14. 2002 as an exception was more like a C level team.
So B tier or level players sprinkled in with a couple of A level players is what it appears like.

Yeah a core of Dame, AD, and Harden is legit, just need the right amount of shooters/bangers to compliment them and they'll be the favorites no question.

Something to keep an eye on, while not on the main 18 man roster. Zion's been invited to the US select team which will workout with the main team in training camp. https://twitter.com/thesteinline/status/1136315180751687680?s=21

ja.he
06-05-2019, 11:52 PM
This definitely looks reasonable and follows the precedent set in all other previous World Championship USA/NBA teams.
An overall B level team USA just like ‘94, ‘06, ‘10 and ‘14. 2002 as an exception was more like a C level team.
So B tier or level players sprinkled in with a couple of A level players is what it appears like.

B-level team but enough to beat the rest of the world. Just like their G-League team that was enough to beat the rest of their continent.

usagre
06-05-2019, 11:57 PM
B-level team but enough to beat the rest of the world. Just like their G-League team that was enough to beat the rest of their continent.

It’s definitely enough as was proven in past tournaments and they would be a heavy favorite. But it should also be pointed out that previously in ‘02-‘06 it is these type of teams that have tripped up and have been beaten. A level Olympic type USA rosters have been pretty much unbeatable historically.

Straight forward
06-07-2019, 12:13 PM
If Harden falls of (pretty likely I believe) and say Lillard, this team is worse than I expected. FOA, really unimpressive centers. Can we call Drummond a dominant big? Not for USA standards, IMO. He's a shaky, unskilled big. A good, but not great center who stats pad in horrible team. Aside Davis, I'm not too sold on both Aldridge and Love. Plenty of mid range jumpshot in the tiny FIBA court? They're good, but not great again. At SF there's no single stud that stands out instantly. So except Harden and Lillard who both can win single handedly, and maybe overlooked super-talent in McCollum, I'm not too impressed. If there will be absences among those, I like Serbia's and maybe some other team's chances. What obviously is apparent, it's not a good defensive team for USA standards and even overall it may not even be the best defensive team. The backourt, except maybe Gordon, is rather horrid at D. Other positions are shaky, except that there's Davis as a defensive beast. With all that said, USA will win it again most likely, but I'm surprised overall. Not a scary USA NT, specially if one of 2 guards superstars won't show up.

mojo13
06-07-2019, 04:06 PM
If Harden falls of (pretty likely I believe) and say Lillard, this team is worse than I expected. FOA, really unimpressive centers. Can we call Drummond a dominant big? Not for USA standards, IMO. He's a shaky, unskilled big. A good, but not great center who stats pad in horrible team. Aside Davis, I'm not too sold on both Aldridge and Love. Plenty of mid range jumpshot in the tiny FIBA court? They're good, but not great again. At SF there's no single stud that stands out instantly. So except Harden and Lillard who both can win single handedly, and maybe overlooked super-talent in McCollum, I'm not too impressed. If there will be absences among those, I like Serbia's and maybe some other team's chances. What obviously is apparent, it's not a good defensive team for USA standards and even overall it may not even be the best defensive team. The backourt, except maybe Gordon, is rather horrid at D. Other positions are shaky, except that there's Davis as a defensive beast. With all that said, USA will win it again most likely, but I'm surprised overall. Not a scary USA NT, specially if one of 2 guards superstars won't show up.

Note - Harrison Barnes has been added to the training camp roster along with Zion Williamson and Myles Turner.


So why do you think James Harden is likely to "fall off". I see no indication of that whatsoever.

There are a load of underrated guys here that don't normally get the spot light who are great players. You miss on mentioning Kemba Walker who has played in the shadow of Charlotte's small market and to many looks a better player than Kyrie Irving. McCollum and Lillard only seem to recently get the recognition they deserve but still under appreciated. Kevin Love has been a very solid role playerfor the USA in the past as a fairly decent 3Pt shooting PF who takes care of the glass. Brook Lopez has proven himself as an excellent 3PT shooting center (best in the NBA) who enjoys the role player role. His teammate Khris Middleton, although having a poor playoffs has been a chronically underappreciated two-way player in his career - an allstar level player and 2nd best player on the Bucks.
Jayson Tatum and Donovan Mitchell bring some interesting dynamic youth. P.J. Tucker is a vastly underappreciated hard nosed role player who thrives doing the dirty work. I agree about Aldridge. Andre Drummond is likely there to be a situational C to help with big paint Cs like Jonas Valanciunas. And I agree on the lack of obvious NBA SFs - but don;t you think for FIBA guys like Brady Beal or Kris Middleton are easily SFs? Middleton is at 6'8 at least. There are all the tools here to make a great "Team". Not a mishmash of stars who all need the ball in their hands to succeed. There is one ultra-ball dominant star (Harden) with two other stars that can succeed in secondary roles (Davis, Lillard) and a host of elite role players, who can easily step up into a prominent role as needed.

If Pop can pull these guys together into some form of co-cohesive unit - they will once again be unstoppable.

What do you guys think as likely starters?


Harden
Lillard (Beal)?
Middleton
Love
Davis


By the way this team comprises 8 of the Top 20 most prolific three point shooters in the NBA (most made threes 2018/19 season) in:
Harden
Walker
Lillard
Beal
Gordon
Mitchell
Middleton
Lopez
And Barnes is #21

usagre
06-07-2019, 04:31 PM
Something like this :

Lillard / Kemba
Beal. / Mitchell
Harden / McCollum / Kuzma
Love. / Middleton / Tatum
Davis. / Aldridge

If you want another big then Drummond in and Kuzma out.

I still have some doubts about Anthony Davis and Zion Williamson participating.

Dtown
06-07-2019, 06:19 PM
Why would Dame or Harden fall off? Neither is hurt, and neither is in a contract situation or starting with a new team. It's not like either of these guys is new to Team USA either, so I wouldn't expect them to decommit at random.

usagre
06-07-2019, 06:29 PM
Why would Dame or Harden fall off? Neither is hurt, and neither is in a contract situation or starting with a new team. It's not like either of these guys is new to Team USA either, so I wouldn't expect them to decommit at random.

I agree. Harden and Lillard are probably 90% gonna participate. Zion and Anthony Davis are probably not in my opinion.
I think Davis gets traded this summer and won’t play. If the Pelicans don’t trade him this summer then almost out of spite I think he will participate.

Straight forward
06-07-2019, 07:08 PM
I admit it's a wild guess, but to me his willingness to participate is rather strange. He pushes so many weight on his back with Rockets, he turns thirty this summer, no other "real" superstars bothered to play (no, Davis is not on Harden level status wise, IMO, and overall as "celebrity"). So I figured there's a decent chance he might eventually turn off NT. It's only WC, why would Harden bother. Also remember how Durrant ran away from NT just seeing George's injury in 2014? That's all I have.

mojo13
06-07-2019, 10:34 PM
I admit it's a wild guess, but to me his willingness to participate is rather strange. He pushes so many weight on his back with Rockets, he turns thirty this summer, no other "real" superstars bothered to play (no, Davis is not on Harden level status wise, IMO, and overall as "celebrity"). So I figured there's a decent chance he might eventually turn off NT. It's only WC, why would Harden bother. Also remember how Durrant ran away from NT just seeing George's injury in 2014? That's all I have.

Yeah....Harden has been 1st Team All-NBA 4 of the last 5 years. Anthony Davis on the other hand only 3 of the last 5 years. Big difference there.
And Damian Lillard he was only 1st Team All-NBA last year and slipped to 2nd Team All NBA this year that bum. Davis is a better two way player than Harden anyways.

I don't know what other "real" U.S. born NBA superstars that you consider at Harden's level and not on the roster. Curry, Durant, Kawhi...maybe Lebron? No surprise any of them are skipping considering where they are in the post-season and Lebrons health/age. YOu think Paul George wants to play again? He likely has PTSD from FIBA ball.

I'll take Lillard over Westbrook or Paul George anyways. So we have 3 of the top 7 American players on this team and three of the five 1st Team All-NBA players from the 17/18 season.

Toruko
06-07-2019, 11:02 PM
Yeah....Harden has been 1st Team All-NBA 4 of the last 5 years. Anthony Davis on the other hand only 3 of the last 5 years. Big difference there.
And Damian Lillard he was only 1st Team All-NBA last year and slipped to 2nd Team All NBA this year that bum. Davis is a better two way player than Harden anyways.

I don't know what other "real" U.S. born NBA superstars that you consider at Harden's level and not on the roster. Curry, Durant, Kawhi...maybe Lebron? No surprise any of them are skipping considering where they are in the post-season and Lebrons health/age. YOu think Paul George wants to play again? He likely has PTSD from FIBA ball.

I'll take Lillard over Westbrook or Paul George anyways. So we have 3 of the top 7 American players on this team and three of the five 1st Team All-NBA players from the 17/18 season.

Lebron is definitely out. He will work on Space Jam 2.

Shawshank
06-08-2019, 12:05 AM
When I check USA roster I always look how much shooters they bring againts european team zones.And they got full of them in those candidates.

From top 10 USA players today they bring 3 of them Harden,Davis,Lillard it will be enough.

Looking more deeply popovich went with shooting alot i have to say .

I don't see good elite defencem wings on this roster, but who cares they gonna shoot lights out most likely with this roster.One of the reason's most likely why pop invite tough nose wing veteran Tucker

Dtown
06-08-2019, 02:22 AM
When I check USA roster I always look how much shooters they bring againts european team zones.And they got full of them in those candidates.

From top 10 USA players today they bring 3 of them Harden,Davis,Lillard it will be enough.

Looking more deeply popovich went with shooting alot i have to say .

I don't see good elite defencem wings on this roster, but who cares they gonna shoot lights out most likely with this roster.One of the reason's most likely why pop invite tough nose wing veteran Tucker

In the normal NBA, I'd rank defense over offense. But in FIBA, typically if the US can make it a shootout they win 100% of the time, and if they're in a low scoring affair they struggle (Lithuania and Australia have actually been decent at this). So good zone breaking shooters in this instance is more important than lockdown defenders.

ja.he
06-08-2019, 10:49 AM
In the normal NBA, I'd rank defense over offense. But in FIBA, typically if the US can make it a shootout they win 100% of the time, and if they're in a low scoring affair they struggle (Lithuania and Australia have actually been decent at this). So good zone breaking shooters in this instance is more important than lockdown defenders.

add to that, individual defense is not as important than in nba. most national teams use team defense through zone defense. the reason why shooters are more valuable in FIBA games than in NBA.

Straight forward
06-10-2019, 12:00 PM
add to that, individual defense is not as important than in nba. most national teams use team defense through zone defense. the reason why shooters are more valuable in FIBA games than in NBA.

Against USA team probably 100% of teams would use other defensive sets than individual defence, maybe except some teams for a short stretch if they can field really good defensive line-up. But in Europe rarely anyone using pure zone defence, usually it's mixed defence adjusting to to the opponent.

mojo13
06-12-2019, 03:59 PM
Team France 15 man prelim roster announced:

Heurtel – Albicy – Ntilikina
De Colo – Fournier – Lacombe
Batum – Toupane – L.Cabarrot
Labeyrie – M’Baye – Moerman
Gobert – Lessort – Poirier

https://sportando.basketball/en/france-name-15-man-preliminary-roster-for-fiba-basketball-world-cup/

So for it is looking like France, Australia and Lithuania are preparing for China with pretty much full strength roster.

Anyone of importance missing here for France? Lauvergne is injured, Parker and Diaw have retired. AjinÁa? Beaubois? Mahinmi? Sťraphin? Noah? Or are they all not really good enough?

Who are their likely starter / key rotation? I guessed at a depth chart above.


EDIT - France announced 9 reserve players as well. Reserve players :
Thťo Maledon – Alexandre Chassang - Moustapha Fall – Edwin Jackson – Lahaou Konate – Elie Okobo – Yakuba Ouattara – Lťo Westermann – Guerschon Yabusele

Mindozas
06-12-2019, 05:24 PM
Anyone of importance missing here for France? Lauvergne is injured, Parker and Diaw have retired. AjinÁa? Beaubois? Mahinmi? Sťraphin? Noah? Or are they all not really good enough?

Ajinca played maybe a month during last season. He came back from injury in late January, signed with Asvel in France, but got into conflict with a coach a bit later and was waived. Since then I didn't heard about him
Beaubois good shooter, but too streaky, also injury prone, there are better options, not really needed IMO
Seraphin had poor season with Barca, also conflicts with a coach, dissatisfied with his role. Maybe he could've been tried instead Lessort, but maybe coach just chose more calm character for the bench
Noah didn't play for NT since 2011 probably, always had an excuse, hardly needed now

Causeur maybe would've had a shot of making final roster, has an amazing final part of the season with Real Madrid, but he rejected the offer to join this summer

Rotation, in backcourt obviously it will be Heurtel, De Colo, Fournier, Batum as main 4. Gobert main big, Poirier most likely his substitute. At PF hard to say, Moerman had great season with Efes, so him or Labeyrie will start IMO and share the most minutes

Dtown
06-15-2019, 02:12 AM
Betting odds have opened, you can treat them like power rankings of the gambling world.

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/news/nba/opening-2019-fiba-world-cup-odds-usa-heavily-favored/

Top 5
USA
Serbia
Spain
France
Greece

Australia, Lithuania, Canada (6.7,8)

CoachZ
06-15-2019, 05:12 PM
Hey guys! Long time no see!

Greetings from Bangkok. I will be in China for the WC this year, looking forward to being more active in the forums again.

usagre
06-15-2019, 07:36 PM
Hey guys! Long time no see!

Greetings from Bangkok. I will be in China for the WC this year, looking forward to being more active in the forums again.

Great to have you back bro. It’s cool that you are there because it might be 2002 all over again for your team.
I think they can pull it off. Your team at full strength looks stacked.

usagre
06-16-2019, 12:54 AM
99.9% chance you can forget Anthony Davis playing in the World Cup now.

CoachZ
06-16-2019, 10:41 AM
99.9% chance you can forget Anthony Davis playing in the World Cup now.

Somebody has to cheer for Yagmur The Kofta Shake Master ����

We will see. I think we are peaking now and in Tokyo 2020. After that we will have significant dropoff especially at PF and PG positions

Dtown
06-16-2019, 01:36 PM
99.9% chance you can forget Anthony Davis playing in the World Cup now.

I'm not sure about this, if anything getting his situation solved quickly might make it easier for him to play. It's not like GM Lebron has any issues with playing for Team USA even if he doesn't anymore.

madmax
06-16-2019, 01:52 PM
99.9% chance you can forget Anthony Davis playing in the World Cup now.

I pretty much have to agree here - LeBron is aging and is desperate to finish his resume with as many rings as possible before he hangs it up for good...and the last thing he wants to see before even regular seaosn starts is his sidekick superstar getting injured while playing internationally lol

usagre
06-16-2019, 01:55 PM
And it’s the optics of Klay and Durant getting seriously injured that’s fresh in everyone’s mind. Load management is the new trend. And the World Cup which is not even the Olympics probably qualifies as a load that can be sacraficed.

usagre
06-16-2019, 02:00 PM
Somebody has to cheer for Yagmur The Kofta Shake Master ����

We will see. I think we are peaking now and in Tokyo 2020. After that we will have significant dropoff especially at PF and PG positions


I remember us talking about Jokic a few years back and in my wildest dreams I wouldn’t have predicted he would turn into this. He is a top 10 player in the NBA at his age already. Unbelievable. If you look back at those discussions you’ll see Terrorizer minimizing his abilities and somehow Viktor Khyrapa was mentioned in the same sentence. That’s even more unbelievable. He scares me in a one and done game against the USA. Just look at his monster game 3 years ago against us when he was a baby. Draymond’s excellent defense saved us on a critical possession against him late in the game.

usagre
06-16-2019, 02:34 PM
And if Anthony Davis doesn’t participate his absence is a big hit. The trio of Lillard, Harden and Davis rounded out with any combination of the other 20 players on that preliminary roster would have been almost a lock to win this tournament. But now they will still be the heavy favorite but definitely can be beaten in a one and done by Serbia. Honestly I don’t think Spain or France would have enough or Canada if they sent their best possible most talented roster.

CoachZ
06-16-2019, 11:02 PM
I remember us talking about Jokic a few years back and in my wildest dreams I wouldn’t have predicted he would turn into this. He is a top 10 player in the NBA at his age already. Unbelievable. If you look back at those discussions you’ll see Terrorizer minimizing his abilities and somehow Viktor Khyrapa was mentioned in the same sentence. That’s even more unbelievable. He scares me in a one and done game against the USA. Just look at his monster game 3 years ago against us when he was a baby. Draymond’s excellent defense saved us on a critical possession against him late in the game.

And to be honest that is not even his biggest improvement since 2017, when he really emerged. It's his defensive awareness. He is now a very capable defender overall, with the only issue being mental that sometimes he gets into foul trouble or gets ejected (didn't show up in the playoffs). He moves much better already, even though he can improve his conditioning a lot. He rotates pretty well, managed to zone switch effectively, plays help side well. The issue is still if he gets isolated on high PnR, then I think I can put the guys I am comfortable being there at the center position in the NBA on one hand. It's all up to him now basically, and the injury gods. If he keeps the work ethic and steers of catastrophic injuries, he will challenge Dirk as the best European ever (even though I believe he will never be that level of a scorer, but is much more well-rounded and important to the team).

Regarding Terrorizer, he often has controversial things to say and I don't know why. He is an intelligent guy that sometimes feels a bit bitter about some players and goes out of his way to talk them down. :D :D

CoachZ
06-16-2019, 11:24 PM
And if Anthony Davis doesn’t participate his absence is a big hit. The trio of Lillard, Harden and Davis rounded out with any combination of the other 20 players on that preliminary roster would have been almost a lock to win this tournament. But now they will still be the heavy favorite but definitely can be beaten in a one and done by Serbia. Honestly I don’t think Spain or France would have enough or Canada if they sent their best possible most talented roster.

Serbia has issues that will show up vs Team USA, that were not as aware in the previous competitions we have played in. Just to list a few:

- Teodosic will not have played a competitive basketball game in 8 months by the time we start seeing the friendlies. He is physically in the worst shape I have ever seen him and he shows absolutely no effort to do something about it. A lot of talk by him and journalists that he is taking time to heal up etc. bla bla. The truth is that his injury has healed some time ago and he should be training and getting back into shape with a professional team. That is not happening, to the best of my knowledge. While his tour of restaurants and BBQ joints with buddies is full on :) He will be a creative powerhouse always, since he has that and will never lose it, but I am quite concerned that his shot will suffer a lot due to his legs. There is still time to get into decent shape, but knowing him, I am not expecting it to happen.

- Jovic is coming off a miserable season and has lost a spot as the No. 2 in PG rotation in my opinion. That is not a big deal in itself, since Micic has emerged and is a much more well-rounded player and one of the best in EL at his position. Still, Teo and Jovic play well together as dual PG lineup which we use a lot and have chemistry over the years. Jovic's defense is key since he mandhandles ball dominant guards, and he was used to hide Teodosic on defense in games when there is facing a monster at his position. Teo and Micic in a lineup, doesn't look that appealing to me to be honest.

- We are thin at PF spot in depth. It has been our weakspot for years though, so this is not a new one. If Bjelica gets injured, or in any way is playing badly, we will have a huge issue at the position. If Bjelica can carry the load with 30 minutes a game at the position, and stay fully healthy, then it's a non issue. The way it looks now, we have no true PFs behind him on the roster. Our 12 man roster will most probably include 3 centers (Jokic, Milutinov, Marjanovic), 6 guards (Teodosic, Micic, Bogdanovic, Nedovic and 2 out of the trio of Guduric, Jovic, Milosavljevic), so that leaves room for 3 forwards (Bjelica, Kalinic, Lucic). So basically Bjelica, and two 3/4 hybrids in Kalinic and Lucic. Since Guduric and Milosavljevic are able to play the SF equally as well as the SG spot, that means these two will have to pick up the slack on the PF spot behind Bjelica, and that is a concern for me vs USA, and I truly hope that Djordjevic doesn't get crazy ideas like playing Jokic next to Milutinov or Bobi :D :D :D

- Coaching. This will be an issue in a game vs USA. I don't trust Djordjevic and I think he has failed in his gameplan in the 2017 Eurobasket Finals, 2015 Eurobasket Semis, as well as both games vs Team USA in the 2014 and 2016 Finals. I have serious doubts that he can put together something that will throw Popovich out of rhythm.

JGX
06-17-2019, 02:13 AM
Nick Nurse confirms he is likely to coach Canada:
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/06/16/nick-nurse-plans-coach-team-canada-raptors

Straight forward
06-17-2019, 09:57 AM
Nick Nurse confirms he is likely to coach Canada:
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/06/16/nick-nurse-plans-coach-team-canada-raptors

Well, Valanciunas will have extra motivation to perform well against Canada :)

mojo13
06-17-2019, 06:23 PM
https://twitter.com/ArashMadani/status/1140622228180131840


Looks like Wiggins is going to play.
I'm a little skeptical on Wiggins but it addresses our depth at the wing. Hopefully Nurse can find a way to maximize his strengths and limit his weaknesses.

madmax
06-17-2019, 06:53 PM
I'm not so sure having Wiggins in FIBA will be a net positive for Team Canada instead of being most likely a net negative..besides his physical tools, a guy just has no idea how to play a winning team basketball

usagre
06-17-2019, 08:46 PM
If Wiggins commits it’s a huge plus for Canada. There aren’t that many scorers like him on the FIBA level. He shot about 50% from three coming off his rookie year in the summer of ‘15 as a 20 year old in his only previous Fiba experience.
He will feast in this tournament. Now if they can get Jamal Murray to commit you will form a lethal scoring duo. Add Thompson, Olynyk, Gilgeous-Alexander, Cory Joseph, Dwight Powell and rookie RJ Barrett and Canada will medal in my opinion.

mojo13
06-17-2019, 10:06 PM
If Wiggins commits itís a huge plus for Canada. There arenít that many scorers like him on the FIBA level. He shot about 50% from three coming off his rookie year in the summer of Ď15 as a 20 year old in his only previous Fiba experience.
He will feast in this tournament. Now if they can get Jamal Murray to commit you will form a lethal scoring duo. Add Thompson, Olynyk, Gilgeous-Alexander, Cory Joseph, Dwight Powell and rookie RJ Barrett and Canada will medal in my opinion.

I really hope you are right. Wiggins really makes me nervous - it is not hard to find advanced stats showing him as one of the most inefficient scorers in the league (maybe of all time) and one of the worst team defenders. He is even sporting a negative VORP rating - but perhaps a negative VORP in the NBA is still a positive at the FIBA level.

https://deadspin.com/andrew-wiggins-update-ah-hm-well-the-thing-is-1833135884

Shawshank
06-17-2019, 10:15 PM
If Wiggins commits it’s a huge plus for Canada. There aren’t that many scorers like him on the FIBA level. He shot about 50% from three coming off his rookie year in the summer of ‘15 as a 20 year old in his only previous Fiba experience.
He will feast in this tournament. Now if they can get Jamal Murray to commit you will form a lethal scoring duo. Add Thompson, Olynyk, Gilgeous-Alexander, Cory Joseph, Dwight Powell and rookie RJ Barrett and Canada will medal in my opinion.

All those canadas guys that most of them gonna made debut in such tournament have no idea what awaits.Especially getting in group with very tough and hard nose defences Ltu and Aus plays.We gonna zone them all game long and pound them inside hard not only at c and pf positions also on sf and check how patience their defence is .Even best USA and world's players needed years do adapt to fiba style.If Canada will come to this tournament playing like NBA 1 Vs 1 alot bye bye very soon.

To win medal being on that bracket side is just nightmare road awaits everybody.Usa obviuos goes in to semifinal and only one from

aus,ltu,can,Fran,ger,tur,Greece,Brasil

goes together with usa to fight for medal .You imagine this bunch of Canada rooks gonna come to first tournament and beats all those top Europe teams and best Aussie team ever ,teams that played together for years?...that's not how basketball usually works, unless you have like 8-9 best players of entire tournament on your roster.If Canada makes semifinal through those elite teams with no fiba experience that would be really shocking to me .

Either way firstly they will have to show me how they gonna survive death group.I don't remember tournament in last 30 years where ltu or Aus went home after first group...so Canadas NBA players better come strongly prepared and have togetherness ,because start tournament back to back with 2 of top 8 teams of entire tournament (atleast by rankings) is not a joke.

usagre
06-17-2019, 10:34 PM
If they send their best available players their talent dwarfs most of those European teams. People still think it’s the 2000’s
when their were legitimate elite players in Europe like Bodiroga, the Greek guard trio, Juan Carlos Navarro, Jasikevicius,
Scola and a lot more. Those days are over. There are no surprises. Everyone knows who the best players are and what their games are and they are all in the NBA. The style played is similar now too between FIBA and NBA. The teams with superior talent will have a huge leg up in these tournaments. And then of course you factor in team cohesiveness and familiarity.
But honestly with this new FIBA schedule the elite players never participate in these tournaments like they used too. Just look at 2017 Eurobasket rosters. So we can fairly say that’s it’s been like 3 years since any of these top teams really had their best players play together. Pre 2016 it was almost every summer. The Canadian team is young, athletic and skilled.
But again I still need to see the roster. I am going on the assumption that they get all 7 or 8 of their best players to participate. That’s no guarantee. Just a couple of them will not translate to a medal in my opinion. But if they all come, sure it’s still a short tournament and they can fall flat. But the potential is also incredible.

usagre
06-17-2019, 11:14 PM
@Shawshank
I disagree that this will be the best Australia team ever. They peaked in 2016 in my opinion. Yeah they add Ben Simmons
but Dellavedova, Patty Mills, Andrew Bogut, and Baynes are 3 years older and all are not as good as they were. Ingles is probably the same but overall I think they take a step back.

Shawshank
06-18-2019, 08:31 AM
We will see but not having played in such type tournaments makes big difference.On our ltu chat most of the ltu posters fear Australia more than Canada.And it's not just because Simmons ( his game doesn't fit fiba that much) but their toughness,experience and there players played together alot in such tournaments ,they have seen it all. Aus have tough minded group,that are pushing, holding,grabbing and very smart knowing when you can do it.We played them alot in recent years and they kicked our asses .

Canada will have only young inexperience tallent,no chemistry, no high IQ players that have been there,no togetherness, they will struggle in tough moments being first time and believe me elite teams gonna put them in tough moments, good teams won't allow them run in fast brakes and dunk, they make them play style they want.Both Aus and ltu have experience guards that knows well how to control tempo in fiba tournament games.Do Canada have such guards or only running athletes? They also will need shooting alot againts zone defences they gonna face .

Brain and experience of good players have good chance beating inexperience athletes in fiba game.

Canada athletes will have their hands full to survive just first group.They better bring their A game, because one of the top8 team is going home after first 3 games...

are you sure it won't be Canada?

madmax
06-18-2019, 09:29 AM
Shawshank, it's really admirable that you're so patriotic and all, but you really need to slow down your horses here buddy - we only have two NBA players on our roster and the rest of the cast is pretty much unknown to casual NBA watching fan...now great coaching can overcome the deficit of talent, but can you really claim that about our current coach?:rolleyes:

Straight forward
06-18-2019, 01:04 PM
If Lithuania had elite coach I would support shaws position. Now i dont. However Wiggins wont be feasting, imo. He barely copes with Nba game which had to to be perfect fit for him. Murray is the only Nba elite player Canada has at the moment.

Toruko
06-18-2019, 01:49 PM
Well I can only say that LTU has currently a very big problem with its guards. Playing with Mantas Kalnietis means to have the trigger of a gun anytime at your finger, he is a walking catastrophy. Big Rotation is OK with Sabonis and Valenciunas but the Rest didnt have a good season at all. I see LTU out in the first round if Canada comes with player like Murray, Thompson etc.

Wiggins is a really skilled guy but he hates playing basketball. You can say it by merely watching him. Maybe its the best not to call him.

Straight forward
06-18-2019, 03:44 PM
Well I can only say that LTU has currently a very big problem with its guards. Playing with Mantas Kalnietis means to have the trigger of a gun anytime at your finger, he is a walking catastrophy. Big Rotation is OK with Sabonis and Valenciunas but the Rest didnt have a good season at all. I see LTU out in the first round if Canada comes with player like Murray, Thompson etc.

Wiggins is a really skilled guy but he hates playing basketball. You can say it by merely watching him. Maybe its the best not to call him.

False. Kalnietis was solid for Asvel. Lekavicius decent for Pao. Grigonis was good for Zalgiris. Seibutis was good for top4 Acb team. Giedraitis was good for Alba. And so on. The only player who really struggled was Jankunas. Our only issue this season is Maciulis and Gudaitis injuries. But those are not key players, just solid bunch from the bench.

mojo13
06-19-2019, 06:06 PM
Now reports out saying Andrew Wiggins has NOT committed to play. Whatever....we should probably just wait until the training roster comes out.
Hopefully this month.

Srle
06-19-2019, 07:30 PM
Shawshank, it's really admirable that you're so patriotic and all, but you really need to slow down your horses here buddy - we only have two NBA players on our roster and the rest of the cast is pretty much unknown to casual NBA watching fan...now great coaching can overcome the deficit of talent, but can you really claim that about our current coach?:rolleyes:

It doesn't matter how much NBA players teams have unless its USA team, Serbian team in 2014 had none and they made it all the way to the finals, because team founded great chemistry and there was a bunch of good players on euroleague level on that roster . Canada's team had bunch of NBA players but none of them have star or the superstar power, Murray is the closest to that yet still far . They are potentially dangerous team but at this point they are unproven on the international stage. We"ll see how they do , as of now Australia and Lithuania are favorites in that group.

madmax
06-20-2019, 10:09 AM
It doesn't matter how much NBA players teams have unless its USA team, Serbian team in 2014 had none and they made it all the way to the finals, because team founded great chemistry and there was a bunch of good players on euroleague level on that roster . Canada's team had bunch of NBA players but none of them have star or the superstar power, Murray is the closest to that yet still far . They are potentially dangerous team but at this point they are unproven on the international stage. We"ll see how they do , as of now Australia and Lithuania are favorites in that group.

I wish our team was still the same cohesive unit as we were back in 2013-2015 period under the strict guiding hand of Mr kazlauskas, but unfortunately we are not the same bunch anymore - our main backcourt players got very old very fast and we still didn't find reliable replacements to them. Very few of those guards are even Euroleague level in fact and apart from old ass Kalnietis we don't really have a true PG either...but maybe we'll be able to conjure another miracle like we used to do and somehow beat much more talented opponents:eek: Time will tell I guess

Straight forward
06-20-2019, 12:17 PM
our main backcourt players got very old very fast and we still didn't find reliable replacements to them. Very few of those guards are even Euroleague level in fact and apart from old ass Kalnietis we don't really have a true PG either...

Bullcrap, IMO :) FOA, our best guard at the moment is Marius Grigonis. Maybe Kalnietis as the main PG and emotional leader might still have a similar impact or even bigger in some games, but Grigonis value overall is unmatched. And he's a good NT fit, the transition from club performance to NT is fluid here. He's 24yo El's stud. Second, Lekavicius under right usage is already arguably superior player than Kalnietis. Even if Kalnietis has his own advantages as advanced playmaking skills, superiority at switching and controlling offensive rhythm, Lekavicius uptempo, aggressive scoring ans slashing offence combined with aggressive individual defence will be priceless if we finally have him (we didn't have him since 2015 when he was a nobody compared to current). Seibutis had a terrific season for the top team of ACB. How he gotten very old exactly? And lastly, Giedraitis had a great season with Alba, nearly amazing season. Even if he's not a player who can be trusted for absolutely fluid transition to the national team level and to make substantial difference at this stage, but he's an upgrade compared to the such players as Milaknis and Juskevicius, IMO. Specially in terms of athleticism, hustle, powerful cuts and strides to the basket which should be beneficial in some stretches even against elite opposition.

With that said on the paper our backourt is not special compared to other powerhouses, that is true, but it might be the deepest and most talented backourt since 2008 or undeniably one of the best in recent years. And if we will lack coherence compared to 2013-2015 period, it will fall on Adomaitis' shoulders and not the rosters. Have some self and others respect and do not provide false and artificial statements about Lith NT, the object that you surely should trivialize so easily as you did it above.

Steadysoul
06-20-2019, 02:45 PM
Wait are people mad at Wiggins over something a person other than him declared?

Steadysoul
06-28-2019, 04:08 PM
So Nigeria announced a 44 player pool that includes I believe 12 guys with NBA experience.

usagre
06-28-2019, 07:01 PM
Giannis confirms he will play in the World Cup. Greece just went from a pretender to a medal contender. FIBA is in for a shock if they think this version of the Greek Freak is the same as the one they last witnessed 3 years ago. Yeah he still isn’t a great shooter, but he’s a lot better than before, his body has matured into a man, and he’s a much smarter player.

Shawshank
07-02-2019, 12:47 PM
in Serbia Nt Nedovic and Kalinic wasnt invited to the camp.Nedovic already in twitter wrote that he is dissapointed and regrets that he has to know such information from internet. So one more Micov story here ?

Toruko
07-02-2019, 12:59 PM
in Serbia Nt Nedovic and Kalinic wasnt invited to the camp.Nedovic already in twitter wrote that he is dissapointed and regrets that he has to know such information from internet. So one more Micov story here ?

Kalinic wasnt nominated because of political statements like he likes us turks and turks and serbians are similar and because he wants to give up on kosovo etc.

Obina
07-02-2019, 06:46 PM
Kalinic wasnt nominated because of political statements like he likes us turks and turks and serbians are similar and because he wants to give up on kosovo etc.

This decision has nothing with turks for sure. He is talking too much about policy last months, I suppose Djordjevic does not likes this.

There is another story, about his problematic behavior.

Nedovic is completely mystery but we will not miss him like Kalinic.

unnamed
07-02-2019, 06:50 PM
Kalinic wasnt nominated because of political statements like he likes us turks and turks and serbians are similar and because he wants to give up on kosovo etc.

At first I was also a bit disappointed because Djordjevic removed Kalinic from NT squad most probably for his political views, but soon I came to conclusion that sports people (coaches, players etc) aren't really the most intelligent and knowledgeable people so they are allowed to have irrational views. Thus now I'm only disappointed because his removal decreases our chances for success.

CoachZ
07-03-2019, 09:24 PM
in Serbia Nt Nedovic and Kalinic wasnt invited to the camp.Nedovic already in twitter wrote that he is dissapointed and regrets that he has to know such information from internet. So one more Micov story here ?

Yep. Another Micov story. Classic ego trip by a coach that will be the main detriment to our team making a great run in the tournament. I have spoken many times about my lack of respect for Djordjevic as a coach, and his coaching knowledge and the way he manages people.

For Nedovic, you can find an argument to not make the roster of 12 (injury etc). Kalinic is absolute nonsense. Yes he had some inflammatory statements but it's completely retarded to exclude him from the squad because of that. The biggest shame is that if Djordjevic decided not to invite them to the camp, why did he include them in the roster of 25??? It further degrades players and shows lack of repsect. He should've excluded them from the list altogether and give reasons for it in advance.

Kalinic is a key piece of the puzzle for us. I wrote about having a thin rotation on the SF/PF. We had Bjelica, Kalinic and Lucic. Macvan is coming off of injury and hasn't played at all, guys like Guduric or Milosavljevic can fill in at the 3. Of all the mentioned players, only Kalinic is the guy that can defend from 2 to 4 positions and be used in multiple lineups etc. He will be sorely missed and I am afraid that idiotic ideas like playing Jokic at the 4, next to Milutinov, Marjanovic or Raduljica will be the downfall of our tournament.

Jon_Koncak
07-03-2019, 10:17 PM
At first I was also a bit disappointed because Djordjevic removed Kalinic from NT squad most probably for his political views, but soon I came to conclusion that sports people (coaches, players etc) aren't really the most intelligent and knowledgeable people so they are allowed to have irrational views. Thus now I'm only disappointed because his removal decreases our chances for success.

What are his political views?Opposing to this Erdogan wannabe you got as president?

unnamed
07-03-2019, 10:42 PM
What are his political views?Opposing to this Erdogan wannabe you got as president?

I don't know if he supported the protests against the president - which should be no issue (populism is cancer), but he twitted some things about Kosovo - how we should carry on and get over on Kosovo problem and leave it be. However, that attitude won't solve anything for the non-Albanian (mostly Serbs) people living there who are currently being oppressed, who are in danger to lose their properties or even lives, and who are under constant discrimination by the Albanian majority. After all, its why the foreign peacekeepers are still there.

Jon_Koncak
07-04-2019, 10:34 AM
I see.If Kalinic made those statements about Kosovo then my respect for him just skyrocketed!He's also absolutely right.Cause it takes guts to make such a statement in balkans where people are stuck in medieval times and nationalism prevails everywhere.

CoachZ
07-04-2019, 12:01 PM
I see.If Kalinic made those statements about Kosovo then my respect for him just skyrocketed!He's also absolutely right.Cause it takes guts to make such a statement in balkans where people are stuck in medieval times and nationalism prevails everywhere.

Today he posted that he will play in the future for either Vojvodina (northern part of Serbia, also has a tiny separatist movement) or Yugoslavia :D Gotta respect the balls on the dude. To be honest, I would play for Yugoslavia in a heartbeat :D

unnamed
07-04-2019, 04:13 PM
I see.If Kalinic made those statements about Kosovo then my respect for him just skyrocketed!He's also absolutely right.Cause it takes guts to make such a statement in balkans where people are stuck in medieval times and nationalism prevails everywhere.

I don't intend to debate on politics on a basketball forum, so I will just add the following as my final remarks: His libertarianistic attitude is just a bit better than nationalistic romanticism which is standpoint of the majority in the Balkans, yes. Now, supposedly he is part of government that has power to execute such idea. Who will take care for 100k people trapped in Kosovo? Is he alone going to pay, say 500 million euros to build new infrastructure for them in some part of Serbia? So knowingly that the answer is no, with such attitude one still can't seriously expect from other homo sapiens to take you as a part of their species. Also, just because he is less wrong than the nationalists it still doesn't make him right. That's why this issue can't be just "left gone" as he tweeted, until basic human rights aren't settled for all of the parties there (regardless of identity).

Obina
07-09-2019, 11:06 AM
Nobody comment about Spain roster? No Pau, Mirotic, Ibaka, Chacho... Looks really average.

Toruko
07-09-2019, 11:08 AM
Nobody comment about Spain roster? No Pau, Mirotic, Ibaka, Chacho... Looks really average.

The best times of spanish domination is over. Of course they will stay competitive but wont dominate anymore.

Steadysoul
07-09-2019, 02:13 PM
Nobody comment about Spain roster? No Pau, Mirotic, Ibaka, Chacho... Looks really average.

I mean Pau is still injured

Mr Chacho
07-09-2019, 06:17 PM
Nobody comment about Spain roster? No Pau, Mirotic, Ibaka, Chacho... Looks really average.

Rubio-Colom
Llull-Fernandez-Ribas
Rudy-Sastre/Rabaseda/Beiran
Juancho-Claver
Marc-Willy-Oriola

Its a good team. We had a worse roster in 2015 Eurobasket and we won the gold facing Serbia, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Greece, France and Lithuania.

Toruko
07-09-2019, 06:26 PM
Rubio-Colom
Llull-Fernandez-Ribas
Rudy-Sastre/Rabaseda/Beiran
Juancho-Claver
Marc-Willy-Oriola

Its a good team. We had a worse roster in 2015 Eurobasket and we won the gold facing Serbia, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Greece, France and Lithuania.

You cant be serious. You had an one man army with Pau Gasol and a prime Chacho and Llull. Its a good team of course but by far not as good as 2015.

Straight forward
07-09-2019, 06:30 PM
Rubio-Colom
Llull-Fernandez-Ribas
Rudy-Sastre/Rabaseda/Beiran
Juancho-Claver
Marc-Willy-Oriola

Its a good team. We had a worse roster in 2015 Eurobasket and we won the gold facing Serbia, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Greece, France and Lithuania.

LOL, no. There's no Pau. Dude was MVP of 2015. He dropped 40pts against France. This is entire new team with sissy 4 position, somewhat unimpressive 3. Your star guards are getting old.

Mr Chacho
07-09-2019, 06:54 PM
LOL, no. There's no Pau. Dude was MVP of 2015. He dropped 40pts against France. This is entire new team with sissy 4 position, somewhat unimpressive 3. Your star guards are getting old.

Llull-Sergio RodrŪguez-Vives
Rudy-Ribas
San Emeterio-Claver
Mirotic-Reyes-Aguilar
Gasol-Willy

Be serios, that roster was worse than Serbia, France and some more. But we overperformed.

In 2017 we had a better team and we did a worse tournament. Or 2014 with that disaster.

madmax
07-09-2019, 07:55 PM
Spain will still be formidable - no need to underestimate a cohesive unit like Spain has just because their 40 year old MVP on his last legs is injured and semi-retired. They still have dynamic and very talented guards and Hernangomez bros who are always improving

Straight forward
07-09-2019, 08:01 PM
Spain will still be formidable - no need to underestimate a cohesive unit like Spain has just because their 40 year old MVP on his last legs is injured and semi-retired. They still have dynamic and very talented guards and Hernangomez bros who are always improving

No-one is saying they are not powerhouse. But this Spain is weaker.

Toruko
07-09-2019, 08:14 PM
Spain wont have a problem with any team except Serbia and Italy till semi finals. I dont think Spain can beat Serbia and Italy has great scorers with Gallo, Belinelli, Datome and Melli and some good pieces like hacket, Jeff Brooks etc. They are still vulnerable under the rim but on a good shooting day Italy can beat Spain. I think their ceiling is semi finals and if shit happens they could get beaten during the second group games.

Straight forward
07-09-2019, 09:29 PM
Spain wont have a problem with any team except Serbia and Italy till semi finals. I dont think Spain can beat Serbia and Italy has great scorers with Gallo, Belinelli, Datome and Melli and some good pieces like hacket, Jeff Brooks etc. They are still vulnerable under the rim but on a good shooting day Italy can beat Spain. I think their ceiling is semi finals and if shit happens they could get beaten during the second group games.

I don't treat Italy as a serious powerhouse. They are two soft generally and too bad defensive team. They will get slathered inside by top teams.

Toruko
07-09-2019, 09:35 PM
I don't treat Italy as a serious powerhouse. They are two soft generally and too bad defensive team. They will get slathered inside by top teams.

Well 2017 they were not bad defensively with Messina by their standards of course. Piannigiani was a catastrophe 2015 but i think similar.

Valexander
07-10-2019, 12:37 PM
I agree with the guys who believe that putting Greece, with Giannis, on the "second tier" favorites is an overestimation. We all know how game changes on the FIBA court and that's what Giannis admitted lately.
Appart from that, no shooters around to take advantage of giannis' ability to create space.
If we exclude Sloukas, or Kalathes, who both by the way wouldn't be in the starting line up, in the past decade, the other roster is filled with players that the best of them are Euroleague role players. Players like Mantzaris,Thanasis, Koniaris, Larentzakis, Saloustros, wouldn't dare to dream about China if they were Lithuanians, Turkish, Russians etc.(i am not talking about Serbia Spain France) The 5 position is laughable, and the depth on the guards is at least questionable.
Rosterwise, teams like Germany or Turkey have nothing to be jealous about this Greek NT.
Considering the fact that our federation's decisions, lately, were questionable too, (Unknown random coach), i would agree with a big fat NO by Giannis.
As our former prime minister could say "One giannis doesn't bring the spring". the dark winter for Greek BB has already started.

Toruko
07-10-2019, 01:00 PM
I agree with the guys who believe that putting Greece, with Giannis, on the "second tier" favorites is an overestimation. We all know how game changes on the FIBA court and that's what Giannis admitted lately.
Appart from that, no shooters around to take advantage of giannis' ability to create space.
If we exclude Sloukas, or Kalathes, who both by the way wouldn't be in the starting line up, in the past decade, the other roster is filled with players that the best of them are Euroleague role players. Players like Mantzaris,Thanasis, Koniaris, Larentzakis, Saloustros, wouldn't dare to dream about China if they were Lithuanians, Turkish, Russians etc.(i am not talking about Serbia Spain France) The 5 position is laughable, and the depth on the guards is at least questionable.
Rosterwise, teams like Germany or Turkey have nothing to be jealous about this Greek NT.
Considering the fact that our federation's decisions, lately, were questionable too, (Unknown random coach), i would agree with a big fat NO by Giannis.
As our former prime minister could say "One giannis doesn't bring the spring". the dark winter for Greek BB has already started.

I must admit a really good evaluation of the situation without being hateful or anything. I am of course very excited of the probable game between Greece and Turkey but i must also say that Giannis worries me a bit. Next Eurobasket if we suppose that Giannis wont come and - Bouroussis and Printezis it doesnt look very promising indeed.

Prancūzėlis_ZLD
07-10-2019, 01:22 PM
Llull-Sergio RodrŪguez-Vives
Rudy-Ribas
San Emeterio-Claver
Mirotic-Reyes-Aguilar
Gasol-Willy

Be serios, that roster was worse than Serbia, France and some more. But we overperformed.

In 2017 we had a better team and we did a worse tournament. Or 2014 with that disaster.

If we focus on 2015 semi-final versus France, this is not really Spain that overperformed in my opinion, this is is just Pau winning the game almost by himself in one of the best individul performance ever at this level. Without Pau it would have been completely different.

G&B
07-10-2019, 07:50 PM
only 51 days left :o

unnamed
07-11-2019, 08:12 PM
Giannis, Harden and Davis are obviously three best players in the tournament, more efficient than others. Followed by Jokic, Vucevic and Valanciunas, but also Gudaitis has been playing on very high level this season, comparable to Valanciunas. Many folks forget that and think Australia is better team than Lithuania. I don't think it is. In fact, I'll go further and say core of Lithuanian team is comparable to core of Serbian team when it comes to efficiency of the main players this season (speaking of Euroleague and NBA). I also think Spain is weaker than France and France is not in the group with Lithuania and Serbia, who are both better than France. But we'll see how will that player efficiency from clubs transfer to national teams.

CoachZ
07-11-2019, 08:20 PM
Giannis, Harden and Davis are obviously three best players in the tournament, more efficient than others. Followed by Jokic, Vucevic and Valanciunas, but also Gudaitis has been playing on very high level this season, comparable to Valanciunas. Many folks forget that and think Australia is better team than Lithuania. I don't think it is. In fact, I'll go further and say core of Lithuanian team is comparable to core of Serbian team when it comes to efficiency of the main players this season (speaking of Euroleague and NBA). I also think Spain is weaker than France and France is not in the group with Lithuania and Serbia, who are both better than France. But we'll see how will that player efficiency from clubs transfer to national teams.

Guard rotation and lack of creation for those bigs is what will be the downfall of this Lith team. This is where they lag behind the teams you have mentioned.

Toruko
07-11-2019, 09:20 PM
I dont really know why are so many people so confident about ltu. I dont want to be disrespectful but they were awfull in eurobasket 17 and i dont know what change their situation. Sabonis is a decent big but bigs are not the problem of ltu but Mantas Kalnietis. Especially to say LTU is stronger than France is fairly daring. Depending on Canadas roster and I dont see LTU making the first groups...

usagre
07-11-2019, 11:21 PM
Depending on Canadas roster and I dont see LTU making the first groups...

I agree. If Canada sends its strongest possible roster I think Lithuania doesn’t get out of first group stage. But anything less than that from Canada and I think Lithuanian experience and historical overachieving will get them through to the next group stage.

mojo13
07-12-2019, 03:07 PM
I agree. If Canada sends its strongest possible roster I think Lithuania doesnít get out of first group stage. But anything less than that from Canada and I think Lithuanian experience and historical overachieving will get them through to the next group stage.



Odds to win the 2019 FIBA World Cup in China this summer, via
@betonline_ag
:

USA ó 1/6
Serbia ó 12/1
Spain ó 20/1
Greece ó 25/1
Australia ó 33/1
France ó 33/1
Canada ó 40/1
Lithuania ó 50/1


Have to believe Lithuania, Australia, Canada and France odds are depressed to some degree because of their respective draws.

Ayrfon
07-13-2019, 09:39 AM
Yep. Another Micov story. Classic ego trip by a coach that will be the main detriment to our team making a great run in the tournament. I have spoken many times about my lack of respect for Djordjevic as a coach, and his coaching knowledge and the way he manages people.


I stopped writing here quite a long time ago, but i kept reading...and i respect your basketball knowledge...but what you wrote here is...

Reason for not inviting Kalinic is not his political opinion...nor is masturbating online with a tranny...

Anyway, Sale always had guts and attitude...you might call it ego...but i found it a quality for a job he does... He has a concept in his head and takes players that fit his concept... He won everything as a player and he got us Olympic and WC silvers as a coach with teams weaker than this... So, he can do whatever the hell he wants as long as he has results that he does... We have this curse that we will always shit how somebody was invited/not invited because he is from Partizan/Red Star...or because he is from this party or that...and we have 7 millions Serbs = 7 millions NT coaches who knows everything the best...

So, leave the BS and show some respect for this guy and enjoy the fact that we have the strongest team in many years back...

CoachZ
07-13-2019, 03:41 PM
I stopped writing here quite a long time ago, but i kept reading...and i respect your basketball knowledge...but what you wrote here is...

Reason for not inviting Kalinic is not his political opinion...nor is masturbating online with a tranny...

Anyway, Sale always had guts and attitude...you might call it ego...but i found it a quality for a job he does... He has a concept in his head and takes players that fit his concept... He won everything as a player and he got us Olympic and WC silvers as a coach with teams weaker than this... So, he can do whatever the hell he wants as long as he has results that he does... We have this curse that we will always shit how somebody was invited/not invited because he is from Partizan/Red Star...or because he is from this party or that...and we have 7 millions Serbs = 7 millions NT coaches who knows everything the best...

So, leave the BS and show some respect for this guy and enjoy the fact that we have the strongest team in many years back...

I am not even going to entertain the comments regarding Zvezda/Partizan stuff here, this has nothing to do with this.

Regarding the NT and Djordjevic now. Depends what you consider success. His best coaching job was WC 2014, where he lead an emerging team full of young players to a silver medal. 2015 was a huge disappointment, he lost to a team that he had to beat in the Semis. In 2016 we were the No. 2 favorite for the title and achieved just that, a silver. I don't think that Silver was a special achievement. In 2017, he failed to win the gold vs a team who had 2 players, one was out by the halftime, the other hasn't played in the 4th QTR in a close came. Regardless of the absences, he got beat by Prepelic, Dimec, Vidmar, Muric etc.

I do not consider his coaching with the NT to be some extraordinary achievement. In terms of talent and quality for the last 4-5 years we are elite outside of USA, and we have zero gold medals to show for that. If we couldn't not get over the hump of USA in the Olympics, the Gold in 2015 or 2017 had to be in the bag for us. No excuses allowed. Also, players showing up for the NT or cancelling has a lot to do with the coach and the federation as well. Don't kid yourself. This group of guys is pretty much our current golden generation, that will be gone after Tokyo 2020 Olympics. If they finish without a gold medal it will be an underachievement due to their talent level. After that we will have serious problems to put together as strong as a squad as that, especially since we have no prospects at PG outside of Micic who is solid but not a real difference maker, and our PF talent pool is also awful outside of Simanic who is just nowhere near the starter for NT level. So, yes we will have Jokic, Bogdanovic, Milutinov, Micic as some kind of core but that will not be anything close to what we have had in the last 5 years.

In general, I think that people were hungry for the medals since we had a drought from 2003 to 2014, where we have one silver in 2009. Those 10 years have completely skewed the opinion of the nation and suddenly any medal is a good result. Fuck that. We have the talent, we should not be afraid to go after gold and no excuses. This is why I believe what he has done to Kalinic is inexcusable. First, the way he treated a key player that was never bad to him or turned his back on the NT, then the lack of insight on how important he is in pure basketball terms for our defense especially at a thin position is also mind-boggling. Especially since the USA will be sending their weakest NT squad for more than a decade.

usagre
07-13-2019, 04:15 PM
Odds to win the 2019 FIBA World Cup in China this summer, via
@betonline_ag
:

USA — 1/6
Serbia — 12/1
Spain — 20/1
Greece — 25/1
Australia — 33/1
France — 33/1
Canada — 40/1
Lithuania — 50/1


Have to believe Lithuania, Australia, Canada and France odds are depressed to some degree because of their respective draws.

Serbia is an overwhelming clear second choice at +650 or 6.5-1 odds in one US sportsbook (Draft Kings).
Honestly I have to agree. I cannot see any other team knocking out the United States other than them.
Maybe a very slim chance for Canada if they send their absolute best 10 players.

usagre
07-13-2019, 04:27 PM
@Mojo13

What are you hearing up there about the Canadian squad ? It’s mid July and we haven’t heard the preliminary pool of players yet. Any news on these top guys ?

Jamal Murray
Tristan Thompson
Andrew Wiggins
S. Gilgeous-Alexander
Kelly Olynyk
Cory Joseph
Dwight Powell

And to a lesser degree

RJ Barrett
Trey Lyles
Nick Stauskas

Is Dillon Brooks still injured ?

usagre
07-13-2019, 06:39 PM
It really sucks that Slovenia the defending European champion will not participate in this tournament. No Dragic and especially Luka is a big loss to all basketball fans that love these tournaments. The only other times when this occurred was in 1992 when Yugoslavia was not allowed to play in Olympics due to sanctions and 1988 Olympic when Greece did not make it through qualifying. This will be the first time that the defending Eurobasket champ won’t participate in the World Championships.

Toruko
07-13-2019, 06:56 PM
It really sucks that Slovenia the defending European champion will not participate in this tournament. No Dragic and especially Luka is a big loss to all basketball fans that love these tournaments. The only other times when this occurred was in 1992 when Yugoslavia was not allowed to play in Olympics due to sanctions and 1988 Olympic when Greece did not make it through qualifying. This will be the first time that the defending Eurobasket champ won’t participate in the World Championships.

Slovenia just became champion because Eurobasket 17 was too weak and the whole team was carried by Dragic who retired after Eurobasket. Randolph said after the loss against turkey that he wouldnt play for Slovenia anymore. Slovenia is not a big loss unlike latvia or Croatia.

usagre
07-13-2019, 09:52 PM
No Ben Simmons for Australia. That’s big time because he was gonna provide some youth into an aging team.
I think Australia is overrated since the key players from the 2016 Olympics semifinal team are now a lot older.

Another Rich Paul client named Anthony Davis will announce the same thing soon in my opinion.

Toruko
07-13-2019, 09:56 PM
No Ben Simmons for Australia. That’s big time because he was gonna provide some youth into an aging team.
I think Australia is overrated since the key players from the 2016 Olympics semifinal team are now a lot older.

Another Rich Paul client named Anthony Davis will announce the same thing soon in my opinion.

Ben declared he would play for the boomers. Is he out now? WTF

usagre
07-13-2019, 09:57 PM
Ben declared he would play for the boomers. Is he out now? WTF

Yeah I just saw that according to report from his agent.

usagre
07-13-2019, 10:07 PM
As we now get closer to the tournament and the reality of a training camp, exhibition games, and actual tournament become clear I think you’ll see a lot more players electing to skip it. Especially the Americans. It’s sounds great as a sound bite to commit months in advance but that doesn’t mean anything. Now you have to put up or shut up. Sacrificing an entire summer is not that appealing to many.

Steadysoul
07-14-2019, 03:22 AM
No Ben Simmons for Australia. Thatís big time because he was gonna provide some youth into an aging team.
I think Australia is overrated since the key players from the 2016 Olympics semifinal team are now a lot older.

Another Rich Paul client named Anthony Davis will announce the same thing soon in my opinion.

Well he's unlikely which means he's probably not but man I wish he would just say no and call it a fucking day.

usagre
07-14-2019, 03:25 AM
Well he's unlikely which means he's probably not but man I wish he would just say no and call it a fucking day.

Yeah I agree. The report says he doubts he will participate. What does that mean ? If health is not an issue then what’s gonna change ?

mojo13
07-14-2019, 08:09 AM
@Mojo13

What are you hearing up there about the Canadian squad ? Itís mid July and we havenít heard the preliminary pool of players yet. Any news on these top guys ?

Jamal Murray
Tristan Thompson
Andrew Wiggins
S. Gilgeous-Alexander
Kelly Olynyk
Cory Joseph
Dwight Powell

And to a lesser degree

RJ Barrett
Trey Lyles
Nick Stauskas

Is Dillon Brooks still injured ?

I think a camp roster will be announced Monday or Tuesday.

As for the team I am sure CoJo, KO and TT are locks as they are being used all over the place in the marketing.

SGA, Murray, Stauskas, Birch, Powell, Boucher have all stated publicly they want to play. I really have no insight on Murray and SGA. But feel good about Birch and Powell.
Pangos, Ejim, both Scrubbs, Wiltjer have all stated publicly they want to play as well.
Stauskas is still the only NBA guy without a contract, but I am not sure how much that matters as this may be an audition for a European or a Chinese club if he is out of the NBA. Pangos is back with Barca and under contract (some rumor of a buyout and move to Valencia) so that seems settled and he should be available. Ejim and both Scrubbs I believe are without contracts but I'd guess they all would be available. Sounded like Wiltjer wants to play as well (saw a recent interview) but that is digging deep at the forward spot. We shouldn't forget about Andrew Nicholson either - he has been killing it in China (finally found a three ball - hitting ~45% on 2.5 made threes a game). I wouldn't be too upset to see him there over Ejim/Wiltjer/Boucher etc.

Lyles has showed no interest publicly - I'd be surprised if he shows (i'm almost sure he wont).
Wiggins is still quite the enigma - your guess is as good as mine (50/50 at best)

Brooks isn't playing summer league and I heavily question if he is going to be ready to play (injured foot). There has been no injury news on him since March - I cant find anything out there on him except that he clearly has the Thirst and was mentored by TT. Tyler Ennis still seems out as well - but I don't know for sure and hopefully it doesn't matter. There was some question about him playing the EL playoffs but he was quickly ruled out. Even if health Tyler Ennis and Brooks are probably way out of game shape.

I don't think any of the just drafted rookies play (Brandon Clarke, Nickeil Alexander Walker, Mfiondu Kabengele, RJ Barrett, Brazdeikis, Marial Shayok. Barrett said he was "unsure" if he was going to play just a few days ago. That s not a good sign. But maybe a good thing for Canada considering his Summer League play. NAW or Clarke could help though.

If I had to guess a good but realistic case might be something like this:
Joseph
Murray
Gilgeous-Alexander
Kelly O
Thompson

Stauskas
Pangos
P. Scrubb
T. Scrubb
Powell
Birch
Ejim


I'd be happy with this. Maybe a Wiggins or Brooks gets in there too.



Oh and Naz Long is not on the 18 man Greek camp roster if that matters and Dylan Ennis said he is free from Jamaica and available to Canada if they want him. Anybody else worth talking about? Anthony Bennett was supposedly hurt at the end of the GLeague season (shoulder) but I know nothing more about it. Justin Jackson (remember him?) tore his Achilles in Jan/Feb (poor kid).

Edit: and just like that Anthony Bennett signed a non guaranteed deal with the Rockets.

soulis79
07-14-2019, 09:43 AM
It's all about Sixers. Simmons case looks like Horfod's. Both of them are on a verge of a big contract. Sixers are on a crossroad, they need their players rested and fully focused on the next NBA season. As for Simmons i think that he will never be " fully commited" to Boomers.

Shawshank
07-14-2019, 10:38 AM
Mojo13

I saw you mentione Ignas Brazdeikis in your comment.

Is Brazdeikis really in Canada's NT plans for the future?

Because our media, basketball federation is saying like this:

Despite playing for Canada's national teams in youth tournaments and not having the Lithuanian citizenship, Brazdeikis's father Sigitas noted that his son's priority was to represent the Lithuania men's national basketball team in international competitions.

Ignas was born in ltu,both of his parents are Lithuanians, his aunt Lina Brazdeikyte was ltu women NT one of main players in late 90s early 00s.

Our federation is declaring in media they would do things to happen for Brazdeikis playing for ltu NT most likely after Tokyo Olympics.

Straight forward
07-14-2019, 12:17 PM
Mojo13

I saw you mentione Ignas Brazdeikis in your comment.

Is Brazdeikis really in Canada's NT plans for the future?


Mojo knows about this issue less than you do.

Straight forward
07-14-2019, 12:34 PM
No Ben Simmons for Australia. Thatís big time because he was gonna provide some youth into an aging team.
I think Australia is overrated since the key players from the 2016 Olympics semifinal team are now a lot older.


Damn, that's pretty big. I go 50/50 Australia vs Lithuania now.

usagre
07-14-2019, 12:41 PM
Damn, that's pretty big. I go 50/50 Australia vs Lithuania now.

I might favor Lithuania slightly. Your bigs advantage is greater than their advantage in the backcourt in my opinion.

mojo13
07-14-2019, 01:55 PM
Mojo knows about this issue less than you do.


I know all about the issue. I included Brazdeikis because he is a Canadian citizen, played FIBA for Canada and is a product of Canadian basketball.

Until he actually plays for Lithuania or at least gets citizenship I don’t see why he would not be involved in conversations about Canada’s hypothetical player pool.

Personally I am not sure he will ever be good enough anyways, but I included his name just because he was among the large group of Canadians drafted this year. He did have a surprisingly good Summer League so maybe he could be an NBA player after all.

Straight forward
07-14-2019, 02:00 PM
Personally I am not sure he will ever be good enough anyways, but I included his name just because he was among the large group of Canadians drafted this year.

In the perspective of Canada maybe (even though I believe a lot if Canada's prospects might go to margins anywhere regarding NT much like Wiggins). There's Barret and plenty others NBA prospects (who are those next to Barret at SF, let's say, in a long perspective?), but Lithuania would gladly add a player with his skillset and I see a possibility him being a steal in the second round. In our BB culture it's different, if Iggy is really Lithuanian, he will have a great loyalty to NT. If we have an NBA or bordeline NBA player, we make a very solid peace for the NT most of the time. You can't say that about Canada to say the least...:D

usagre
07-14-2019, 02:16 PM
In our BB culture it's different, if Iggy is really Lithuanian, he will have a great loyalty to NT. If we have an NBA or bordeline NBA player, we make a very solid peace for the NT most of the time. You can't say that about Canada to say the least...:D

Don’t be fooled by the Canadian land mass. It’s a relatively small country. If it were in Europe it would be the 9th largest population. They treat ice hockey like Lithuania treats basketball except they are the clearly the best in the world at it.
Sports like Lacrosse and Canadian football arguably are more popular than basketball as well. I think their basketball culture is in its infancy stages and growing. It’s actually pretty impressive the amount of talent that they hav recently produced. They put it together on the junior level and won a world championship, now they have to show that it can translate on the senior level.

mojo13
07-14-2019, 02:20 PM
SF is a funny position for us. As far as traditional SFs are concerned the cupboard is fairly bare - even today we don’t really have many NBA quality SFs. Wiggins and RJ Barrett are really NBA SGs - even Dillon Brooks I think too. But of course they can all play a SF type role (if there even is such a specific need anymore). We we have plenty of very tall and versatile SGs (even PGs/SGs) coming up that should be fine In a three guard line up. Shai Gilgeous Alexander and his cousin Nickeil Alexander Walker. Nik Stauskas too.
Both Karim Mane and AJ Lawson are projected 1st rounders next year and are guards but in the 6’6 range. Addison Patterson is another big guard NBA prospect as well. Still loads of prospects in the pipeline.

I considered Brazdeikis as more of a undersized PF - too slow and unathletic to play on the wing (in the NBA at least). But maybe he can carve a role. He has surprised at every level so far, so why stop now?

Straight forward
07-14-2019, 02:30 PM
Donít be fooled by the Canadian land mass. Itís a relatively small country. If it were in Europe it would be the 9th largest population. They treat ice hockey like Lithuania treats basketball except they are the clearly the best in the world at it.
Sports like Lacrosse and Canadian football arguably are more popular than basketball as well. I think their basketball culture is in its infancy stages and growing. Itís actually pretty impressive the amount of talent that they hav recently produced. They put it together on the junior level and won a world championship, now they have to show that it can translate on the senior level.

And I believe it will take time if happens ever to get close to the levels of true basketball traditions (USA, Lithuania, Serbia, Spain). They produce crazy amount of talent, but how much it will reflect to actual performance level is absolute enigma. First, their players dedication is amateurish, second, they don't have FIBA traditions and differently than you I really think that's the key. In other words all this talent comes on the paper. Bennett, Wiggins and even Murray (yet) and 95% of their current best players didn't leave a tiny mark at true FIBA environment (WC, Olympics). It will be very interesting to see them in WC this year, but if we had Jasikevicius (top notch coach, or still had Kazlauskas) I would be sure we are handling them even with Murray and Wiggins. Now it's tricky, but I'm still rather positive as of yet (apriori WC).

usagre
07-14-2019, 02:37 PM
This summer and next summer will tell us a lot about Canada. Will their top guys participate ? And how well will they do ?
They have about 10 legitimate world level talents and they are all under 30 years old. I think they have a very good chance to be a special team that accomplishes great things in these next two tournaments.

mojo13
07-14-2019, 03:26 PM
Not long to find out about the commitment level of these young guys. Word is the roster should be released Monday or Tuesday.

usagre
07-15-2019, 05:15 AM
No Anthony Davis as I expected for World Cup. Like I predicted once he was traded to the Lakers there was no way he was going to participate. Big time loss for team USA.

cagney
07-15-2019, 05:27 AM
Huge loss for sure. I’m wondering if there’ll be any domino effect with him dropping out.

usagre
07-15-2019, 05:31 AM
Huge loss for sure. I’m wondering if there’ll be any domino effect with him dropping out.

James Harden and Damian Lillard are the only others on the preliminary list that are top tier players like Anthony Davis.
If I had to guess Harden is a tossup and Liilard will play. All the others I think will not drop out and try to get selected for the team. This team is definitely going to be weaker than ‘14 and probably overall better than ‘10 but with no Durant caliber player.

usagre
07-15-2019, 05:40 AM
Lillard, Kemba
Beal, Mitchell, McCollum
Harden, Middleton
Love, Harris, Tatum
Drummond, Turner

The way I would go.

madmax
07-15-2019, 07:00 AM
US suddenly became a very beatable team with a bunch of unproven players on a FIBA stage and that chronic choker Harden "leading them"... Will be interesting for sure

soulis79
07-15-2019, 08:12 AM
I am wondering if it is a coincidence that both players who decided to withdraw from the Worlds, also have the same sport manager. Rich Paul.

Davis absence is a big one. Even so the Team USA is the favourite of the tournament.

Straight forward
07-15-2019, 10:07 AM
Lillard, Kemba
Beal, Mitchell, McCollum
Harden, Middleton
Love, Harris, Tatum
Drummond, Turner

The way I would go.

I surely would add Turner. Agreed here. I think he overlooked. To me he's surely better than Drummond who is dying breed. Turner is a defensive beast as well, but also can shoot and run. Overall, I would be extremely exited if there was no Harden and Lillard. Those two will hammer in last nails to the coffin. Without those, I would predict USA choking in a game or two, not necessary going for defeat. Now it's still safe with Harden and Lillard or even one of them.

Shawshank
07-15-2019, 12:29 PM
Lillard, Kemba
Beal, Mitchell, McCollum
Harden, Middleton
Love, Harris, Tatum
Drummond, Turner

The way I would go.

This would be most beatable USA team I can remember.Popovich will take atleast one veteran, you need grown up to put those young athletes on same page.Pop gonna take Tucker or Millsap maybe even both they would give toughness and leadership.And overall that lineup will need tuckers defence, all those guards are all kinds soft ones,no grinders ,who will play defence from those 6 guards ( including Harden?).Most of them have bad reputation on defensive side in NBA.

If you put Harden who played all season PG as SF is really bad with wings in this USA team.

Pop saw with his own eyes in 2004 young athletes is one thing, but when ship is sinking you need grown ups, there were no use of those young athletes LeBron,Wade and Carmelo's in tough moments in 2004.

Middleton playing style in fiba game is good fit.He can be very important in this WC.Such long athletes with deadly shot is nightmare for European teams.

usagre
07-15-2019, 12:52 PM
This would be most beatable USA team I can remember.Popovich will take atleast one veteran, you need grown up to put those young athletes on same page.Pop gonna take Tucker or Millsap maybe even both they would give toughness and leadership.And overall that lineup will need tuckers defence, all those guards are all kinds soft ones,no grinders ,who will play defence from those 6 guards ( including Harden?).Most of them have bad reputation on defensive side in NBA.

If you put Harden who played all season PG as SF is really bad with wings in this USA team.

Pop saw with his own eyes in 2004 young athletes is one thing, but when ship is sinking you need grown ups, there were no use of those young athletes LeBron,Wade and Carmelo's in tough moments in 2004.

Middleton playing style in fiba game is good fit.He can be very important in this WC.Such long athletes with deadly shot is nightmare for European teams.

I agree that they are definitely beatable but are historically the type of teams the US sends to the Worlds.
2010 on paper looked very beatable as well but Durant and defense won the title. This teams calling card will be
Dribble penetration and shooting. They have excellent players that can break down the defense finish or kick out to a group of great shooters. I agree defense will be an issue but I don’t see guys like Tucker or Millsap playing a huge role.
Guys like that might make the team but will not get the serious minutes needed to impact the team.

I think Harden will play the same role he did in ‘14 with Kyrie and Steph Curry. It worked well then and he was team USA’ s best player throughout the tournament in my opinion.

The 2004 teams downfall was not youth it was no outside shooting. Very poorly constructed team. LeBron and Anthony were outside the rotation so they weren’t really relevant. Wade played well as the backup point guard but his lack of shooting along with the rest of the roster did them in.

the_black_planet
07-16-2019, 01:42 PM
It's really funny that AD stated that he is commited to play next year in Olympics. He really expects us to believe that he aint gonna play this year, after a season that he was resting for most of it, but he is gonna be there next summer after having probably an NBA finals run! Yeah, we definately ate it AD :lol

usagre
07-16-2019, 04:19 PM
It's really funny that AD stated that he is commited to play next year in Olympics. He really expects us to believe that he aint gonna play this year, after a season that he was resting for most of it, but he is gonna be there next summer after having probably an NBA finals run! Yeah, we definately ate it AD :lol

You’re missing the point. Unlike the rest of the world the World Cup/championships doesn’t mean a lot to these players.
The Olympics on the other hand does. Comparing the two is not even close. He’s basically saying that he’s not closing the door on the Olympics because like you said a long playoff run and health will be major factors. But all things being equal he may participate. Top level A USA stars never have and never will participate in the World’s. Only exceptions historically have been if the star player was in his early 20’s. So don’t put too much stock in what they say months prior especially when it comes to very low prestige tournament like the World Cup. If James Harden participates it will be the first time a player of his stature and age has participated ever for the US.

usagre
07-16-2019, 04:49 PM
No Andrew Wiggins for Canada. That’s a big loss. He and Jamal Murray would have formed one of the better scoring duos in the entire tournament. If Jamal Murray also drops out Canada is not a serious threat to do anything major. They are not deep enough to miss their two top scoring threats and still achieve great results.

Wiggins like Anthony Davis says he would still consider the Olympic. It’s the American in Andrew coming out. I guess his father former NBA guard Mitchell Wiggins couldn’t convince his son how prestigious and great the Worlds is. He won a silver medal as a collegian playing for the USA in the 1982 tournament.

Straight forward
07-16-2019, 05:27 PM
No Andrew Wiggins for Canada. That’s a big loss. He and Jamal Murray would have formed one of the better scoring duos in the entire tournament. If Jamal Murray also drops out Canada is not a serious threat to do anything major. They are not deep enough to miss their two top scoring threats and still achieve great results.


Well good news for Lithuania. Now we emphasize Murray at D end and rolling over their bigs at offensive end. Their SF position is also questionable. I treat Lithuania as favourite to win this one.

christodoulou76
07-16-2019, 06:28 PM
so what are the power rankings after this latest round of announced absences (simmons, wiggins, davis, etc.)?

maybe

Tier 1
USA

Tier 2
Serbia

Tier 3
Spain
France
Lithuania

Tier 4
Greece
Australia
Russia
Italy
Canada
Turkey

Tier 5
Argentina
Czech Republic
Germany
Brazil

mojo13
07-16-2019, 06:36 PM
Well good news for Lithuania. Now we emphasize Murray at D end and rolling over their bigs at offensive end. Their SF position is also questionable. I treat Lithuania as favourite to win this one.

Silly.
You guys vastly over estimate Wiggins - this is likely addition by subtraction. By many advanced stats he is one of the worst players in the NBA.

Any ways....

mojo13
07-16-2019, 06:42 PM
Canada's training camp list:
http://basketball.ca/en/news-article/30-athletes-invited-to-attend-senior-mens-national-team-training

It is a little confusing as they call it an invite list. Which could be very different from who actually shows up. But with Wiggins not on the list I assume they have gotten feedback from all these guys that they plan to participate.

This is a fantastic list - the only guys here missing arguably in the Top 35 of Canadian players globally is Andrew Wiggins, Andrew Nicholson, Dylan Ennis, Anthony Bennett and maybe Igans Brazdeikis (likely playing for Lithuania). With Wiggins really the only one who'd make a final 12.

Good to see allot of these guys back in the fold like Trey Lyles, Aaron Doornekamp and Andy Rautins - even if they likely don't make the final 12. Nice to see Naz Long sticking with Canada over Greece. Most of the rookies (Barrett, NAW, Clarke, Kabengele, Dort, Shayok) are probably just involved in the camp to get familiar with the national team program and I seriously doubt any are on the final 12 (including Barrett).

I am ecstatic to see this list. It is better than my wildest imagination (assuming they are all really good to go).


And again to the Wiggins comments above - I am doubtful he is in my Top 8 of Canadian players. Or at least he is a huge risk to chemistry and the chance for efficient team oriented basketball. I am perfectly fine with him not participating. This offense will be built around Murray and Kelly Olynyk with great guys in offensive support roles (Powell, SGA, CoJo, Stauskas, Brooks if healthy) - we have some good defensive role players as well in Birch, TT, CoJo.

Straight forward
07-16-2019, 06:44 PM
Silly.
You guys vastly over estimate Wiggins - this is likely addition by subtraction. By many advanced stats he is one of the worst players in the NBA.

Any ways....

I know that, but he surely is a huge threat in a given day you would agree I assume. Advanced NBA stats are different context as well. Some NBA drop outs rock in Euroleague (and wise versa, but you get the point...). To me Wiggins would be a dark horse at FIBA. He can suck and chuck up some untasty shots or he can kill one or another team in a given day.

Straight forward
07-16-2019, 06:50 PM
And again to the Wiggins comments above - I am doubtful he is in my Top 8 of Canadian players. This offense will be built around Murray and Kelly Olynyk with great guys in support roles.

With all respect, Canada better have coherence and deepness because Olynyk is not good enough to be a second option, IMO, for a powerhouse. To me he is soft and however you put it not an impressive name even in the context of some system teams which lacks big stars. I like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Tristan Thompson, obviously plenty other solid players. But to me, it's only Murray that is a true stand-out at the moment, Canada will have to play fundamentally sound basketball to beat one of Lithuania, Australia.

G&B
07-16-2019, 07:03 PM
now i think so, wait for the final rosters


Tier 1 (A clear favorite)
USA

Tier 2 (Favorites in medals)
Australia
Lithuania
France
Serbia
Canada

Tier 3 (can fight for a place in the semi-finals)
Spain
Greece
Italy

Tier 4 (can fight for space in the playoffs)
Turkey
Argentina
Czech Republic
Germany
Brazil
Russia
Puerto Rico

Tier 5 (remaining teams for statistics)

mojo13
07-16-2019, 07:33 PM
I know that, but he surely is a huge threat in a given day you would agree I assume. Advanced NBA stats are different context as well. Some NBA drop outs rock in Euroleague (and wise versa, but you get the point...). To me Wiggins would be a dark horse at FIBA. He can suck and chuck up some untasty shots or he can kill one or another team in a given day.

I just don't think we need to take that risk. We have enough firepower to not need Wiggins maybe having a good game or just as easily losing one for us.

madmax
07-16-2019, 07:41 PM
Wiggins is such a non-factor even in NBA where an athlete of his physical attributes should be flourishing that his absence is simply an addition by subtraction just like mojo13 said. Canada would be better off filling up their 12 man roster with guys from overseas rather than collecting every single athletic guy and hoping his game would translate to FIBA straight away - that just doesn't happen and international teams are too good nowadays for this kind of experiment (as Team USA can testify from their struggles in the early 00's)

usagre
07-16-2019, 07:42 PM
I just don't think we need to take that risk. We have enough firepower to not need Wiggins maybe having a good game or just as easily losing one for us.

Andrew Wiggins at 24 has played 400 NBA games and has averaged 19.5 points on 44% shooting. Guys like that don’t grow on trees and especially are not easily found on FiBA rosters. He has been a disappointment by NBA standards due to the lack of his overall game and the spot he was drafted. But on this team against this competition he would mainly be asked just to score. Mark my words he’ll be there on Olympic team and the team will benefit for it.

But all that said a roster with Murray, Thompson, Olynyk, Gilgeous-Alexander, Joseph and Powell will still be the heavy favorite and my choice to win their group. The problem is if they will all participate. The 29 man list doesn’t make a lot of sense less than 3 weeks from training camp. It should be probably around 18 or so. 29 players are not showing up.

mojo13
07-16-2019, 07:43 PM
With all respect, Canada better have coherence and deepness because Olynyk is not good enough to be a second option, IMO, for a powerhouse. To me he is soft and however you put it not an impressive name even in the context of some system teams which lacks big stars. I like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Tristan Thompson, obviously plenty other solid players. But to me, it's only Murray that is a true stand-out at the moment, Canada will have to play fundamentally sound basketball to beat one of Lithuania, Australia.

In my defense - I am not calling this a power house team. I'm just really happy with this turnout (if the list is legitimate).
This is not the NBA, it is FIBA - a huge step down in competition - where role players like Luis Scola can be superstars. Kelly Olynyk has been that star for Canada in the past and I think his game is ideally suited to FIBA, making him a much bigger threat than in the NBA. He is a high IQ big, who can put the ball to the floor, is an excellent passer and fantastic outside shooter. He is certainly not soft - he is actually fairly hard nosed and pretty rough and tumble under the hoop (ask Kevin Love), he is not a great athlete compared to NBA bigs so he compensates with wily, near, borderline rough stuff like many Euro players do in the NBA. He certainly can be hot/cold in the NBA often having a great run of 6-8 games and then going quiet for the same amount. Any ways - I won't try too much to convince you - maybe check out his games last summer during the qualifiers. He completely dominated Brazil with 20 points, 19 rebounds, four steals and three assists (I guess that is not saying much nowadays with Brazil).

mojo13
07-16-2019, 07:46 PM
Andrew Wiggins at 24 has played 400 NBA games and has averaged 19.5 points on 44% shooting. Guys like that don’t grow on trees and especially are not easily found on FiBA rosters. He has been a disappointment by NBA standards due to the lack of his overall game and the spot he was drafted. But on this team against this competition he would mainly be asked just to score. Mark my words he’ll be there on Olympic team and the team will benefit for it.

But all that said a roster with Murray, Thompson, Olynyk, Gilgeous-Alexander, Joseph and Powell will still be the heavy favorite and my choice to win their group. The problem is if they will all participate. The 29 man list doesn’t make a lot of sense less than 3 weeks from training camp. It should be probably around 18 or so. 29 players are not showing up.

You are right about the size.
There are 21 players if we carve out all the rookies and college players who I very much think are there just to get acclimated to the national team and are not in consideration for the final 12:


Guard/Wings
Murray
Joseph
SGA
Stauskas
Pangos
P Scrubb
Long
Rautins
Heslip
Best
T Scrubb
Doornekamp (arguably a big)

Bigs
Olynyk
Thompson
Powell
Birch
Ejim (arguably a wing)
Lyles
Boucher
Wiltjer



And with Wiggins - yes he gets points, but in a very, very inefficient manner. Mostly long 2 pointers - he barely even drives and dunks anymore. Go check out his advanced stats - he is in the bottom 2-3% in the NBA for WS, BPM, PER, TS% - I think any meaningful efficiency based statistic.

usagre
07-16-2019, 07:48 PM
Canada would be better off filling up their 12 man roster with guys from overseas rather than collecting every single athletic guy and hoping his game would translate to FIBA straight away - that just doesn't happen and international teams are too good nowadays for this kind of experiment (as Team USA can testify from their struggles in the early 00's)

They are overseas for a reason. Significant downgrades in talent and ability. In the early 2000’s the NBA style and FIBA were very different. Not any more. Three point shooting is emphasized just as much in NBA if not more now in NBA than FIBA. And both don’t have any low scoring bigs anymore for the most part either. You take your most talented players and you have a month to make them look like a team. If any other federation took its less talented players and sacrificed better ones they would be laughed at.

usagre
07-16-2019, 07:53 PM
And with Wiggins - yes he gets points, but in a very, very inefficient manner. Mostly long 2 pointers - he barely even drives and dunks anymore. Go check out his advanced stats - he is in the bottom 2-3% in the NBA for WS, BPM, PER, TS% - I think any meaningful efficiency based statistic.


Long 2’s are actually 3’s in FIBA. He is coming off his worst year but I am looking at the totality of his career since he is only 24.

Straight forward
07-16-2019, 08:05 PM
In my defense - I am not calling this a power house team. I'm just really happy with this turnout (if the list is legitimate).
This is not the NBA, it is FIBA - a huge step down in competition - where role players like Luis Scola can be superstars. Kelly Olynyk has been that star for Canada in the past and I think his game is ideally suited to FIBA, making him a much bigger threat than in the NBA. He is a high IQ big, who can put the ball to the floor, is an excellent passer and fantastic outside shooter. He is certainly not soft - he is actually fairly hard nosed and pretty rough and tumble under the hoop (ask Kevin Love), he is not a great athlete compared to NBA bigs so he compensates with wily, near, borderline rough stuff like many Euro players do in the NBA. He certainly can be hot/cold in the NBA often having a great run of 6-8 games and then going quiet for the same amount. Any ways - I won't try too much to convince you - maybe check out his games last summer during the qualifiers. He completely dominated Brazil with 20 points, 19 rebounds, four steals and three assists (I guess that is not saying much nowadays with Brazil).

Only WC will tell. Some people think this Canada is ready to go as usagre, I'm at the very least doubtful if not sceptical. These guys basically have zero experience and they suddenly are forced to have sort of a knock out stage at the group stage. It can go either way, they might not feel any pressure and to play more relaxed and more skilled basketball than those under pressure (Lithuania, Canada) or they can be too lousy because of that lack of pressure and they don't even yet now what it's like to go against fully motivated Lithuania and Australia at real deal FIBA game. And the third scenario they will feel pressure with all these NBA players and they only yet to learn how to handle it.

Off course, Murray might drop 28 and other 5 player migh be in a double digits and they will outscore anyone on that type of game. I don't exclude this scenario, but it seems less likely to me.

usagre
07-16-2019, 08:05 PM
Other than Melvin Ejim and maybe Kevin Pangos I don’t see any of the other overseas players having any significant role on this team.

usagre
07-16-2019, 08:08 PM
@Straigtforward.
Canada held their own by beating Turkey and losing a tough game to supremely loaded French team in 2016 Olympic Qualifiers. And on paper this Canadian team is a lot better than that version.

soulis79
07-16-2019, 08:17 PM
Here is what i choose. I write down only the pros for each team.

Team to beat:

USA(with or without Davis)

Pontium contenders:

Spain(very good back-court, good D, easy Group C, fairly easy bracket, mentality, Know how)

Serbia(Very talented core, easy Group D, Fairly easy bracket, mentality, coach is legend on international basketball)

Australia(good cohesion, high IQ of all players, very good coach, thirst for a medal)

France(Rebounding, Defence, coach Collet, DeColo-Fournier, no Spain till semis :p )

Quarter Finals:

Russia(good core, passion on defensive end, Shved-Mozgov, easy bracket)

Argentina(back-court thrived last season, coach Hernandez, easy Bracket)

Greece(Greek Freak, euroleague experienced players, good athleticism-three Antetokounmpos)

Lithuania(good core, Strong post presence, mentality)

Turkey(Wilbekin-Korkmaz-Osman, coach Sarica, fairly easy group E, underdog)

Canada(excellent talent, NBA calibre coach, hungry for success)

Second Round:

Italy(Gallinari-Belinelli duo, good role players, last chance for success)

Poland(good core, Coach Taylor, easiest group A, easy bracket)

China(Host, some good players, easiest group A, easy bracket)

Puerto Rico(old school players, easy group C)

Montenegro(Excellent post presence, one of the top three coaches-Mitrovic, balanced group F)

Brazil(very experienced players, balanced group F)

Germany(good players, good core, excellent PG-Shroder)

Long shot to advance group stage:

Dominican Republic( Towns, coach Garcia(loco) ;) )

Czech Republic( CEZ Nimburg core, Satoransky-Vesely collaboration, fairly easy group)

Nigeria(Very talented players, athleticism, have done it again)

New Zealand(Websters, balanced group F, experienced team)

Iran(experienced players, easy group C, Puerto Rico's repeatedly failures)

Venezuela(very experienced team, good chemistry, easiest group A)

Won't advance but maybe win a game:

Ivory Coast(easiest group A, underdog)

Tunisia(easy group C, well prepared team)

Participation is a good thing:

Korea(Run 'n' Gun team, very good naturalise player)

Philippines(love for the game, tough team)

Angola(mediocre core, mentality against equal opponents)

Senegal(good team, tough group though)

Japan(coach Lamas, Hachimura, preparing for Olympics)

Jordan(well prepared team, mediocre core though).

Sorry for the length, guys. :)

usagre
07-16-2019, 08:25 PM
Still too many questions marks when it comes to roster composition. In a month we can legitimately rank the rosters.
I think there are many players being treated as givens by many nations that still won’t participate. Then you factor in nicks and bruises during the training camp period that are treated as being worse and that may exclude many NBA caliber players as well.

madmax
07-16-2019, 08:34 PM
They are overseas for a reason. Significant downgrades in talent and ability. In the early 2000’s the NBA style and FIBA were very different. Not any more. Three point shooting is emphasized just as much in NBA if not more now in NBA than FIBA. And both don’t have any low scoring bigs anymore for the most part either. You take your most talented players and you have a month to make them look like a team. If any other federation took its less talented players and sacrificed better ones they would be laughed at.

like I've already said, US have learnt their lesson the hard way and started sending squads full of elite shooters mainly. In fact, ever since 2007 US teams won those international competitions thanks to their long range shooting rather than some overwhelming athletic ability, which of course speaks volumes about them finally swallowing their pride and arrogance and playing FIBA game the right winning way. Canada is basically a poor man's USA and they should follow the same model as their big brothers when it comes to hoops too

usagre
07-16-2019, 08:46 PM
No my point is the style of game in itself changed. So in the early 2000’s there were no great players for the most part that incorporated the 3 point shot. They were considered specialists. Now and for many years they all can do it. So basically if Canada sends their best NBA players they are also sending their best shooters and in essence FIBA style players as well.

The US in 2004 had absolutely 0 outside shooters and still managed to win bronze including beating maybe the best Lithuanian team ever in the process. So they basically needed just one or two at most roster alterations and they would have sailed to the Gold. A Ray Allen or Michael Redd type.

2002 was a more complex case. They had outside shooting but C Caliber talent across the board except for a couple of players. And horrible coaching by George Karl didn’t help either. Also factor in that they were playing at home in front of empty seats( Because they don’t care about the Worlds in the US) and they faced tough competition and that’s why they lost. They lost to a powerhouse Argentina and Serbian teams. You can throw out the consolation Spain loss because that game meant nothing.

It wasn’t pride or arrogance and playing the Fiba way. It was the rule changes in the Nba that minimized low post play and eventually led to the total disappearance of the old school low post big. So it wasn’t them adapting to FIBA in preparation for those tournaments. The NBA game due to rule
changes had already done that organically.