Guevara a terrorist ?

[rikhardur]

hating bloodthirsty terrorist Che Gewara

He wasn't one, he was a revolutionary in the truest sense. Don't confuse him with Fidel.

[MikeMaccabiFan]

He wasn't one, he was a revolutionary in the truest sense. Don't confuse him with Fidel.

What's the difference? Fidel sent him and helped him (as soviet KGB as well...). Helped kill him too (got bored of his ravings, did he?)
Have you read Guevara's articles? Apotheosis of hate...
Here's one - may be most famous - citation (and read article too - good analysis, and this one is even better - http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/feb04/24e6.htm):

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/che.html
"Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy."

Here's another piece:

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary...These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the The Wall!"

I am not talking of long list of victims... http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm (and this is a short list...)
May be not so long as Fidel's, which, unfortunately, had much more time and opportunity, being head of totalitarian state...

So you prefer dictators?

No, I prefer democracy, and you know that.
I don't think Gevara killed one dictator, but many innocent civilians...

And Hapoel fans should stop talking of love - hatred is the message of Guevara...

[rikhardur]

@ MikeMaccabiFan: I don't want to get much into this, but the thing is he was a revolutionary, especially against the burgeois and in that sense no-one would be spared. I believe he refers to burgeois when talking about such hate, it's understable bearing in mind his ideology. He and Fidel parted ways and Fidel later demonstrated how he renounced to his old ideals and became a ferocious dictator. That's all from me as this is extremely OT

[MikeMaccabiFan]

@ MikeMaccabiFan: I don't want to get much into this, but the thing is he was a revolutionary, especially against the burgeois and in that sense no-one would be spared. I believe he refers to burgeois when talking about such hate, it's understable bearing in mind his ideology. He and Fidel parted ways and Fidel later demonstrated how he renounced to his old ideals and became a ferocious dictator. That's all from me as this is extremely OT

I also do not want to get in this too deep - I said enough in my previous post, but one can get lots of info just googling "Guevara+hatred" so you may want to do that if you do not want to remain blind...

And about bourgeois (nothing wrong with that in my book - not reason to kill at least...) - Unfortunately he killed mainly peasants (bonded and gagged - shoot in head), not bourgeois... I's funny how he got commercialized...

[Czarkazem13]

No, I prefer democracy, and you know that.
I don't think Gevara killed one dictator, but many innocent civilians...

And Hapoel fans should stop talking of love - hatred is the message of Guevara...

He fought against dictatorships and he DID NOT agree with Fidel's dictatorship. Innocent victims? Maybe, but he was defending the rights of the REAL innocent victims (poor, Native Americans, blacks, etc...) thoughout Latin, Central and South America, especially against foreign agitators (namely the U.S., but other nations as well).

While he didn't kill any dictators, he fought against them (Bautista being one). You mention that Fidel sent him to the U.S.S.R., but don't mention that he didn't like Stalinism and the bureaucratic caste which ruled in the Soviet Union. The U.S.S.R. labeled him a "Troskyite."

Also, the bourgeois (that you don't mind) were the real enemies of "democracy" and were killing/oppressing the peasents, blacks and Native Americans.

BTW, who said Che was against democracies? He supported democracy in Guatemala with Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, who was later replaced by a CIA-backed military junta.

Peace.

[MikeMaccabiFan]

He fought against dictatorships and he DID NOT agree with Fidel's dictatorship. Innocent victims? Maybe, but he was defending the rights of the REAL innocent victims (poor, Native Americans, blacks, etc...) thoughout Latin, Central and South America, especially against foreign agitators (namely the U.S., but other nations as well).

While he didn't kill any dictators, he fought against them (Bautista being one). You mention that Fidel sent him to the U.S.S.R., but don't mention that he didn't like Stalinism and the bureaucratic caste which ruled in the Soviet Union. The U.S.S.R. labeled him a "Troskyite."

Also, the bourgeois (that you don't mind) were the real enemies of "democracy" and were killing/oppressing the peasents, blacks and Native Americans.

BTW, who said Che was against democracies? He supported democracy in Guatemala with Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, who was later replaced by a CIA-backed military junta.

Peace.

B-shit... Sorry I was expecting more than heap of leftist propaganda...

Have you noticed that you actually wrote that it is good to kill innocent people (yes, those peasants - poor, Native Americans, blacks, etc...) in order to defend them? And I do not think that this guy had a time to defend too much (Throughout Latin, Central and South America? Come on...) - he spent lot of time torturing and killing innocent civilians in Cuba.... About Stalinism (BTW, I haven't mentioned Fidel sending him to USSR, sorry) - you are wrong - he signed as Stalin II for a time... About democracy - he wanted centralized "communist" state (highly centralized, even) - if this is your model of democracy, sorry I disagree... Dictators - Batista was a thug and thief, no doubt - but can you say with good conscience that what Guevara did (and don't give me this shit about him and Castro disagreeing too much...) was better than Batista???
I'm really too sleepy right now to eliminate all you arguments, so there - go to Cuban refugees sites (or try to wear Guevara shirt in their neighborhood, if you dare) - try links I gave
I'm not hoping that you will agree - aside from bball we disagree almost about anything, but some logic, please...

[Czarkazem13]

B-shit... Sorry I was expecting more than heap of leftist propaganda...

Have you noticed that you actually wrote that it is good to kill innocent people (yes, those peasants - poor, Native Americans, blacks, etc...) in order to defend them? And I do not think that this guy had a time to defend too much (Throughout Latin, Central and South America? Come on...) - he spent lot of time torturing and killing innocent civilians in Cuba.... About Stalinism (BTW, I haven't mentioned Fidel sending him to USSR, sorry) - you are wrong - he signed as Stalin II for a time... About democracy - he wanted centralized "communist" state (highly centralized, even) - if this is your model of democracy, sorry I disagree... Dictators - Batista was a thug and thief, no doubt - but can you say with good conscience that what Guevara did (and don't give me this shit about him and Castro disagreeing too much...) was better than Batista???
I'm really too sleepy right now to eliminate all you arguments, so there - go to Cuban refugees sites (or try to wear Guevara shirt in their neighborhood, if you dare) - try links I gave
I'm not hoping that you will agree - aside from bball we disagree almost about anything, but some logic, please...

I was about to answer all of this. While I'm not really so left as you think, I can argue that what you state rightwing jingoism. Since this is a basketball site, I don't wanna get to into it.

BTW, I live in South Florida, so don't tell me about Cuban refugees. Hell, notice that they are mostly white and come from middle class homes in Cuba. They still treat the poorer darker (and black) skinned Cubans like crap (the ones that support Castro - not because he is great, but he is better then Bautista). Among the so-called refugees are people that committed autrocities in Cuba. I don't wear Guevara shirts (like you I find it amusing how commercial his image has gotten), but I'll tell you from experience - nothing would happen.

Wait, look at what I just did. I'll keep it simple, you're a rightwing fascist and I'm a lefty commie pinko. Now back to Maccabi beating Hapoel....

(By the way, too much politics in Israeli sports - and too many Hapoels for that matter)

[MikeMaccabiFan]

Awww, come on... getting personal? Instead of some logic?
Hmm, not every one has brains of Yuval Steiniz...

First of all, I would apologize in your place - I wasn't going personal if you paid a little attention...
Second of all - I refused to do discussions on this level long time ago (about 30 years ago, give or take..)...
Putting labels, throwing fiery sentences... LOL

[Czarkazem13]

Awww, come on... getting personal? Instead of some logic?
Hmm, not every one has brains of Yuval Steiniz...

First of all, I would apologize in your place - I wasn't going personal if you paid a little attention...
Second of all - I refused to do discussions on this level long time ago (about 30 years ago, give or take..)...
Putting labels, throwing fiery sentences... LOL

As I responded to your PM, it wasn't personal. It was a joke (simplistic labeling of both sides that both side do). So I don't get your panties in a bunch.

I didn't feel like getting all into this on a bball site, so I just jumped to how these conversations usually end - namecalling (sarcastly too, I guess it just doesn't translate that well typed).

So nothing was personal.

As far as Che goes, he was better then what was there before him. Now to disregard his disagreement with Fidel and the Soviets simply to stick with your views is (typical of most people) an disingenious arguement.

Did Che commit terrorist acts, yes. So did just about every Israeli leader (and Palestinian). So did the U.S. when it dropped atom bombs on civillian populations twice in W.W. II.

Aw forget it, I'd rather discuss basketball...

BTW would you consider

[rikhardur]

Oh come on I didn't want to prolongue a discussion on this, much less have a thread created by me lol Oh well

[ArkadiosV2]

but one can get lots of info just googling "Guevara+hatred" so you may want to do that if you do not want to remain blind......

First of all, who are you to tell someone that if he doesn't do this or that he will remain blind.

Hey, i just typed Jews+evil in google and i got 1 600 000 results! Seriously.
And i got only 149 000 for Guevara+hatred.

So there you go, Jews are evil! Google says so!

Guevara fought for nations although he was of an entirely different nationality, he fought for poor although he was a from a rich family. That is enough for me.

[LuDux]

The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions

[Czarkazem13]

The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions

Don't tell the neocons.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

my bloood pressure when up just seeing the title of the thread.

no props to anyone actually worshiping thias man, where have the world gone to...
A mass murderer, rapist, person in head of concentration camps and yet an idol of humanity?
Anybody asked Cubans about their opinion maybee? I guess they're not wearing Hitler or Himmler T-shirts there?
WTF, let's sell some Arkan jerseys, i'm starting a new bussiness, I guess it'll work out...
courtmartial for crimes against humanity is the ONLY thing i'd give him, given that we're talking in a civilised manner. 12.7mm in his head would be an act of mercy, while with most people that suffered his regime he'd be dying in a slow slow way, for weeks... and I wouldn't feel sorry for him- what goes around comes around.

don't care if he is a terrorist or not, he is a freaking mass murderer...

Guevarra is in the group of people, I'd be proud to kill without any sense of guilt, or responsibility in front of god... with a freaking spoon if needed... eventhough that would take time and a good stomack

[Czarkazem13]

my bloood pressure when up just seeing the title of the thread.

Really?

no props to anyone actually worshiping thias man, where have the world gone to...
A mass murderer, rapist, person in head of concentration camps and yet an idol of humanity?

Same can be said - and worse - for the people he fought against, which makes this a hard to label a black/white issue[/QUOTE]

Anybody asked Cubans about their opinion maybee? I guess they're not wearing Hitler or Himmler T-shirts there?

First it depends on the Cubans. The richer white ones tend not to like Che, though many realize that he and Fidel did not see eye-to-eye on the results of Fidel's power grab.

Second, the darker skinned and poorer ones tend to look at Che (and Fidel for that matter) in a much brighter light. They remember how things were with Bautista, before the revolution.

Third, I see it as a stretch to put Hitler and Himmler in the same boat as Che.

WTF, let's sell some Arkan jerseys, i'm starting a new bussiness, I guess it'll work out...

Good luck with that. However, whether one is a supporter of Che or has - let's say - issues, the whole commercialization him and his image, besides ironici, is lucadriss.

courtmartial for crimes against humanity is the ONLY thing i'd give him, given that we're talking in a civilised manner. 12.7mm in his head would be an act of mercy, while with most people that suffered his regime he'd be dying in a slow slow way, for weeks... and I wouldn't feel sorry for him- what goes around comes around.

What regime? He never had one. Interestingly enough, many have felt and still feel the same about Mandela...

don't care if he is a terrorist or not, he is a freaking mass murderer...

Wouldn't that make him a terrorist?

Guevarra is in the group of people, I'd be proud to kill without any sense of guilt, or responsibility in front of god... with a freaking spoon if needed... eventhough that would take time and a good stomack

Guevara felt this way about dictators and fascists, he felt proud to kill without any sense of guilt - though not with a spoon as far as I know. So you support the same tatics?