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**stuart** · 05-20-2006, 09:20 PM

(continued from post above...)

FRANKY 13
01-13-2004, 12:52 PM

I don't know with precision the average budget of the french championship league. But i'm pretty sure that it's less than 3.3/3.5 million. I may be wrong , but i would that the average budget is something like 2.6-3 Millions (euros).[BALLSTORM]

i had read a "basket news" magazine so i suppose they were telling the truth

no seriously now,i'm sure about the facts.and i said between 3 and 3,5 millions[not 3,3].Anyway,even if it's 2,6 to 3 millions as u say,it still is higher than in Greece.although the tax system is a serious problem...

if you wonder how the level of play is still higher in Greece
you said that. i didn't. I don't have any certitude about that. you would have asked the same question a few years ago (just one , may be), i would have told you that greece was 10* better. now..? hard to say...[ballstorm]

i really didnt mean to offend u[sorry if i did

].but when we say that the average play level is now lower in the greek league,we[the greeks

]mean that the 3 top teams have become weaker[aek,pana and olympiakos].the rest of the teams are just as strong as 5-6 years before.

do you remember a game between Le Mans[1st in France] and Makedonikos[8th in Greece with a 7-8 record],about 2 months ago for the uleb cup?Makedonikos won in France 69-73.

of course it was one game.But believe me the result wouldnt be surprising if you had seen some greek league games...I cant find a better,recent exemple.

Of course,i respect your opinion and dont aim to change your mind...

oh!and i didnt say the french league sucks...u know my opinion about that.

BallStorm
01-15-2004, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by FRANKY 13

i really didnt mean to offend u[sorry if i did

].

I hope you didn't

do you remember a game between Le Mans[1st in France] and Makedonikos[8th in Greece with a 7-8 record],about 2 months ago for the uleb cup?Makedonikos won in France 69-73.

makenonikos beat le mans. makedonikos is 8th in greece , le mans is first in france , so all the 8 first teams in the greek league are better than the french ones?

nice solipsism! are you a sort of sophist? (just kidding)

Of course,i respect your opinion and dont aim to change your mind...

oh!and i didnt say the french league sucks...u know my opinion about that.

In fact you may be right. i did not say that the french championship was better. just that I did not have any certainty about this. let's say that a contest opposing the first 8 of the french championship to the first 8 of the greek league could be interesting . ..but i keep in mind that you know the both greek and french championships , traveler-Franky , so your opinion might be the best of ours.

FRANKY 13
01-15-2004, 02:48 AM

makenonikos beat le mans. makedonikos is 8th in greece , le mans is first in france , so all the 8 first teams in the greek league are better than the french ones?

ok.javoue que mon petit syllogisme est un peu con!But to my mind this exemple is not as ludicrous as it seems to be.And the only thing i'm pretty sure of is that Makedonikos is objectively at least a bit better than all the frensh teams except Pau and ASVEL.And i say objectively,cause no frensh team except the two traditional powers has players like Shane Heal,Ira Clark,Morgunov and Giorgos Sigalas.But ok,its maybe only my opinion,I give u that and i stop my "I know everything" nerv-racking attitude.lol

In fact you may be right. i did not say that the french championship was better. just that I did not have any certainty about this. let's say that a contest opposing the first 8 of the french championship to the first 8 of the greek league could be interesting . ..but i keep in mind that you know the both greek and french championships , traveler-Franky , so your opinion might be the best of ours.

Well maybe.I guess we'll never find out.

oh and the nick[traveler-Franky].....my god,it sounds horrible

BallStorm
01-15-2004, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by FRANKY 13
.And the only thing i'm pretty sure of is that Makedonikos is objectively at least a bit better than all the frensh teams except Pau and ASVEL.And i say objectively,cause no frensh team except the two traditional powers has players like Shane Heal,Ira Clark,Morgunov and Giorgos Sigalas.

Giorgos sigalas himself? WWWHouuuuaaaahhhhh i almost fell of my chair !

so many eminent names !

oh and the nick[traveler-Franky].....my god,it sounds horrible

sorry , i found it rather beautiful

(but ballstorm stays the worst , no way)

FRANKY 13
01-15-2004, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by BallStorm
Giorgos sigalas himself? WWWHouuuuaaaahhhhh i almost fell of my chair !

so many eminent names !

sorry , i found it rather beautiful

(but ballstorm stays the worst , no way)

end of story

**qiangdade** · 05-20-2006, 10:36 PM

nice thread! I wasn't a member when it was created and i believe the past 2 years many things have changed so here it is:

1. ACB spain. no doubt this is the best league in europe. They r miles ahead in organization, arenas, attendance, marketing, tv ratings and they have the best players in europe.
2. LEGA italy. In all aspects the second best league in europe
3. Russian league. Many great teams, lots of money, good arenas. Could become nr.1 in a few years. A shame they only have 1 team in the euroleague
4. A1 greece. Still trying to restore its former glory when greek teams were present every year in the final4 for 9 years in a row, and alot of money was thrown into bball. Meanwhile there r some great arenas and decentralization, but the minor teams still r poorly organized and except oly and pao there r no consistend high standard teams
5. Lithuanian league. They could be higher if they had more than 2 teams in a high level
6. Turkish league. They finally reached the point of having more than 2 high level teams
7. German league. Good attendances, decent arenas, and good marketing. Better than the french league anyway
8,9,10 french, adriatic and polish

**Joško Poljak Fan** · 05-21-2006, 12:14 AM

things definately changed over the past few years...

1. ACB (Spain)
...still
by far surpassing all the other leagues by attendance, organization, tv rights, biggest budget's per average and is the only league that could be described as a spectacle compared to others. Also it goes in depth unlike Russian or Greek league...

2. Lega (Italy)
Lega declined a lot over the past few years, since Russia and Spain are gathering all their best players year after year. Also just an opinion but it seems to me that Lega hasn't improved a lot in terms of budget, attendance and organization... in fact I sometimes have a feeling all those things were on much higher level few years back.
Teams like Roma, Milano and Napoli with ambitions is the bright side of this league, with those 3 teams being competitive the league gets a whole different media attention...

3. Heba (Greece)
Although far from it's previous glorious days, Olympiakos slowely rising back to where they belong in euroleague and Greek results in Uleb cup over the past few seasons show that the league might be underated by most people.
They can't gather as many strong clubs as Russians do, but due to bigger competitiveness I belive overall Greek league is still no.3 infront of Rusia...

4. Russia
From every interview I've read comming from players from Russia they've all pointed out one thing: 5-6 strong teams... while the rest could get beaten by CSKA by 50 points margin if the champions would be properly motivated.
Russian oligarchs are investing a lot of money, but obviously the infrastructure and organization and the other things that "make the league" are somehow forgotten behind.
I'd say they're heavily underated by Uleb, while considering the league as a whole overated by fans...

5. Adriatic
The gap behind Russia is huge, but looking at all those hordes of players leaving this league year after year it's still incredible that the whole area can assemble so much talent that they keep on going in any competition year after year...
No team really stood up this season, 10 teams being almost equaly competitive, and the fact that a team like Slovan didn't even manage to qualify to top8 says a lot about the league's depth which imo putted them in front of the followers...
again many might argue this isn't even a league (in that case put Turkey on no.5 and Serbia on no.6)

6. Turkey
The worst thing that is happening to this league is having Efes and Ulker with guaranteed contracts... Fenerbahce, Turk Telekom and Tofas are missing from the old days... those teams weren't bad at all...

7. Germany
I consider French league a bit stronger due to better lower ranked teams, I'd also put Baltic league in front of german one regarding the results in europe, but German league by far better in all other aspects- organization, budgets, infrastructure... all they need is an europe based Dirk to get some results and attention...

8. France
lots of average teams that combine for a decent league, but no team is getting any results for quite a while, excluding Asvel this year in UlebCup (eventhough I expected morefrom them)... just as German league it gets filled with too many american or nauralised players of doubtfull quality...

9. Baltic league
by my opinion it contains too many teams- imagine how the level of competition would increase if instead of 16 only 12 or10 teams would play- this way it looses it's advantage over the France and Germany due to Rytas, Žalgiris and Ventpils...

10. Israel
Due to Maccabi's dominance in this league it gets overlooked very easily, but I think they definately deserve this spot...

11. Belgium

12. Ucraine

13. Poland

14. Bulgaria

15. ?

**Trifilli** · 05-21-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Matiz

7. Germany
I consider French league a bit stronger due to better lower ranked teams, I'd also put Baltic league in front of german one regarding the results in europe, but German league by far better in all other aspects- organization, budgets, infrastructure... all they need is an europe based Dirk to get some results and attention...

While I'd agree with you on the strength of the leagues (France still stronger than Germany because of better lower ranked teams) I actually doubt the rest and imo it's interesting to make a comparision with France here.
Germany has a good name for organization in Europe because of teams like Alba Berlin or the Skyliners - when we look at the lower ranked teams though there's not much left on behalf of organization, smaller teams like Karlsruhe (or Würzburg last season) even struggle to pay their players on time or owe them money - something we usually only know from the greek A1.
Now let's have a look on the spectator numbers of the 2004-2005 season (couldn't find anything alike for France for the current season): The BBL averaged 3.430 spectators per game (16 teams), while the ProA averaged 3.149 (18 teams). Not much of a difference - but the ProA on the other hand made much more money with TV rights - 2.6 Million Euro compared to the BBLs laughable 50.000 Euro (per Season!). As for budgets being far higher in Germany: I don't think so, the top overall budgets in Germany are the ones of Alba and Bamberg, both around 5 Million Euro, while the top team in France (Pau Orthez) has a player budget of 2.7 Million Euro - should be about the same (or even a bit more) in an overall budget. In the ProA 13 teams had a player budget higher than 1 Million Euro, the overall average expenses per team in the 2004-2005 season reached 3.27 Million Euro. I don't know all german budgets as they don't get announced officially, but from those I know I can tell you that they're not much higher (if higher at all) in medium and lower ranked teams. Overall I'd say that both leagues are pretty much on the same level, with small advantages for the ProA because of the lower ranked teams.

Of course I can't close this post without my own ranking

1. ACB (Spain)
No discussions here imo, they're clearly the best league in Europe in all aspects.

2. LegaA (Italy)
I agree that the LegaA declined, but imo it is still on 2nd place for overall strength of the league, let alone the other aspects (I only rank by strength here though).

3. A1 (Greece)
Russia is coming closer but the lower ranked teams in Russia didn't reach the ones in Greece yet imo, if other aspects than strength would play a role, Greece would drop in my ranking though.

4. SuperleagueA (Russia)
Coming closer to Italy and Greece, if their continue their development and finally develop more good local players, the overall level of the SuperleagueA will surpass the ones of the LegaA and A1 soon.

5.Adriatic League
Still one of the most underrated leagues in Europe. Things like budget, infrastructure and other aspects are not as good as in other leagues, but looking only at the overall strength the league is definately on no bad level.

6. D1 (Turkey)
Imo a bit weaker this season compared to the last one, mainly because of the decline of Ulker. Besiktas is improving, but not on the level they should be, looking at their investments.

7. LKL (Lithuania)
Improved a lot over the last few years and altough their lower ranked teams are weaker than the french and german ones imo I ranked them higher than those two leagues in overall strength this time.

8. ProA (France)
Reasons stated above

9. BBL (Germany)
Reasons stated above

10. BSL (Israel)
One top team, one really strong team - but the overall level of the league is too weak to rank Israel higher imo.

11. BLB (Belgium)
League improved a lot, teams like Bree, Oostende, Dexia and Charleroi are really decent, the league is too small however.

12. DBL (Poland)

**qiangdade** · 05-21-2006, 02:32 PM

i believe the german league is becoming better by the year and the french worse by the year. In the german semis there is bremerhaven for example and alba is struggling to reach the finals and has also lost to bremerhaven in berlin during the regular season. In the other semis bamberg is obviously not as strong as koeln but they have the homecourt advantage. There r also alot of competitive teams in the league like the skyliners who didn't even reach the semis. From what i have seen, the organization and marketing of the league is excelent (in terms of the strength of the league of course). I haven't seen anything good coming from the french league in almost a decade-it looks like they r losing interest in the sport. Both leagues should focus on promoting bball through their nba superstars (parker, diao, nowitzki). There is much potential but not much more atm.

As for the adriatic league: teams don't really care how they place in this league. Some have guaranted contracts and some qualify throu their national leagues for the euroleague, thus losing interest to play good. Sorry but i do not consider this as a league

**Trifilli** · 05-21-2006, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by qiangdade

i believe the german league is becoming better by the year and the french worse by the year. In the german semis there is bremerhaven for example and alba is struggling to reach the finals and has also lost to bremerhaven in berlin during the regular season. In the other semis bamberg is obviously not as strong as koeln but they have the homecourt advantage. There r also alot of competitive teams in the league like the skyliners who didn't even reach the semis. From what i have seen, the organization and marketing of the league is excelent (in terms of the strength of the league of course). I haven't seen anything good coming from the french league in almost a decade-it looks like they r losing interest in the sport. Both leagues should focus on promoting bball through their nba superstars (parker, diao, nowitzki). There is much potential but not much more atm.

I can't really argue about which of those two leagues is the better one, as I said I see both on a pretty similar level with small advantages for France - but there are reasons to see it the other way around as well. There also is not much reason to deny the decline of the french league over the last few years and there hasn't been coming anything good out of it for years - but on the other hand one has to ask what came out of the german league? Bamberg this year reached the Top16 against teams like struggling AEK or Olimpija and ended it with a 0-6 record, while before german teams didn't reach the Top16 for years.
The point where I disagree though is that the german league got better this year, imo the league is considerably weaker than last season. Alba is a decent offensive side but plays absolutely no defense, something that did cost them the 2nd round in the ULEB Cup btw (and explains why they struggle against 5-men rotation Bremerhaven), Frankfurt turned from a really decent team into a 0-10 UC team and Bamberg seems to be burnt out after their championship and their first EL season. This is the only reason why I see championship chances for Cologne actually (who reduced their budget for this season), while the fact that a team like this years Ludwigsburg reached the playoffs doesn't really speak for the league. Last season there were also small but strong sides like Giessen or Artland, making the league more competitive than it is this year imo.
As for the organization and marketing of the league I'm not that sure that it is excellent (ok, compared to Greece where marketing is non-existant in the A1 it is

). In the 2004-2005 season 42% of the league media range was achieved with the Frankfurt Skyliners involved, this number speaks for Frankfurt and against the league in general (I don't know about Bambergs and Berlins numbers, but assuming that their numbers were pretty high as well you can forget about the rest of the league). Things like the expansion of the league now or stories like those of the MBC, Hagen or Würzburg in the past don't look too well either, in most cases when the leagues manages to draw the attention of the media it is because of scandals.
But Germany also has the problem that Basketball is not Sport #2 or #3 in TV here - but rather #15...other sports are just way more present in television, leading to the sad situation that Bambergs Euroleague games were not shown in TV at all, but rather coule be followed as a highlight show late at night, sometimes even a day after the team played. (The show even managed to average only 10.000 viewers one night, while a cooking show that was shown in the middle of the night averaged 20.000). I also watched several news magazines (Tagesschau, etc..) this season when Alba won the Cup - and not a single one reported about the Cup Final, but still had a lot of sport news.
Like you said, there's quite some potential in Germany (especially given the number of people who play basketball here) but I'm not that sure that the BBL is heading into the right direction atm.

**Joško Poljak Fan** · 05-21-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by qiangdade

As for the adriatic league: teams don't really care how they place in this league. Some have guaranted contracts and some qualify throu their national leagues for the euroleague, thus losing interest to play good. Sorry but i do not consider this as a league

to an extent yes... but there is more...
Olimpija and Cibona are two teams that mostly care about euroleague where they leave most of their energy for the week, falling short in adriatic league later because of that. Partizan is a whole different story since they have 4 other competitors in Serbian league for the title and they have to be sure to get at least a spot in uleb-cup (divided among first 3 in adriatic league) otherwise they might end up with a catastrophe for them playing just in adriatic league for a season eventhough they might have much bigger succes in europe.
Serbian clubs +Zadar, Bosna, Slovan and Široki are trying hard to get that UlebCup spot, so the league is not as uncompetitive as a lot of people that contradict this league would like to think, eventhough such situations as you described can happen at the later stage of the competition... dividing euroleague spots through adriatic league is impossible due to political reasons, but hopefully when additional EL spot would be granted to the league the interest of the teams would increase...

anyway if you'd ask me, the way the level of Slovenian basketball dropped in the last 4-5 years of adriatic league, and due to sponsor money running out from our teams in favor to financing the league in a major percent (last season reportedly 90% of money came from Slovenia), I am not really sure if I wouldn't prefer Slovenian league without adriatic one...

**Abyss** · 05-21-2006, 06:08 PM

1. Spain

2. Italy

3. Greece

4. Russia

5. France

6. Germany

7. Balkan

8. Turcey

9. Lithuania

10. Israel

and meny more

polish league sux. Just Prokom can play a good basketball, nobody more

**Nimonas** · 05-21-2006, 06:48 PM

Abyss: in English it sounds Lithuania, not Litwa.

well, Polish league doesn't suck imho, there are a lot of intrigue. one club is participating in Euroleague, while others are not many more weaker.

**qiangdade** · 05-21-2006, 06:55 PM

@trifilli

no reason to quote such a massive post-lol

I think we agree here that the french and the german league are about the same. Some evidence points to one direction and some to the other. I just stated the feeling i get when watching albas efforts here in berlin and some other like bambergs plan to extend their arena so they can play at home in the euroleague(they used nurembergs arena this season which is 200km away). Maybe there is more of a basketball hype in berlin than in other german cities

(i am not saying that they r bball crazy over here don't get me wrong- but the sport does get some attention every once in a while). It is sad that in 2 countries that have produced nba stars like dirk, diao and parker, basketball is getting less attention than bicycle racing, handball, tennis and other sports.

AH!!! another major reason why this year the german league maybe worse than last season is the upcoming football world cup held in germany. There is only football in german minds right now

**PHILIPeurobasket** · 05-21-2006, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Abyss

polish league sux. Just Prokom can play a good basketball, nobody more

---- That's not the way Philip. JCN
You are from Poland, and you write something like that ?

Polish league is from season better and better! This season was very good for Prokom. Very good season was also for Anwil. Big suprices in DBL was how play Czarni and Polpak (newcomer on 4th place - WOW). Battle about play-offs was in this season very hard, and very good. Everyone say that this season was the best season in 2-3 years! Polish league have big sponsor!

In Poland play very good players, this time like Rick Apodaca, Jerome Beasley, Chudney Gray, Christian Dalmau, Michael Andersen, Goran Jagodnik, Michal Ignerski, ... and much more!

Think about it, ok?

**Abyss** · 05-21-2006, 10:52 PM

Your're right my jamaal, but when you must read about youre contry legue not see it in TV thats stupid. I'm maybe disrespecting my country legue but thats the truth. I see that clubs you written are good but Prokom destroyds everybody

PHILIPeurobasket pozdrawiam Cie daj GG

**Victorious** · 05-22-2006, 01:19 AM

Funny thing is that the Belgians give quite some attention to basketball, but their league isn't that big of a deal.
If they can create a stronger league it would become a very popular sport I'm sure.

I think most of you had the rankings about right.

1. Spain
2. Italy
3. Greece
4. Russia
5. Adriatic
....Turkey
....France
8 Germany
....Baltic
9. Israel
10.Poland
....Belgium

**PHILIPeurobasket** · 05-22-2006, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by Abyss

I see that clubs you written are good but Prokom destroyds everybody

PHILIPeurobasket pozdrawiam Cie daj GG

Prokom has money, so has good players! If Czarni or Polpak will be have money they will can also fight with Prokom ...

Moje GG - 1565454, ale jestem zazwyczaj wieczorami

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