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Dirtyh
06-05-2015, 11:13 AM
Naturalizations over all are pretty much ok for me but this current situation in basketball is simply very stupid.

INTEGRAL
06-05-2015, 10:45 PM
I am not against neutralizing but there must be a logic to select players who are neutralized. There must be some rules for that

1. Players who already have European passport cannot be neutralized such as Preldzic, Begic, Mirkovic etc

2. Other continent players must play at least 3 years in the country where they will play for if they play in another league current season. And they can be neutralized after 1st year.

Mindozas
06-06-2015, 06:29 AM
I am not against neutralizing but there must be a logic to select players who are neutralized. There must be some rules for that

1. Players who already have European passport cannot be neutralized such as Preldzic, Begic, Mirkovic etc

2. Other continent players must play at least 3 years in the country where they will play for if they play in another league current season. And they can be neutralized after 1st year.

No one needs neutralized players :p

INTEGRAL
06-06-2015, 07:15 AM
No one needs neutralized players :p

Haha why not? :D:D

Enemy down

Shawshank
06-16-2015, 11:55 AM
The list of absences is getting longer by the day

Goran Dragič 99% won't play
Edo Murič, injured his shoulder
Domen and Erazem Lorbek, first one chronical injuries, second one reportedly hasn't yet started practicing
Mirza Begič - needs a summer off with his knees


Players invited to the NT, 4 will join from the B NT
Jaka Blažič
Jure Balažič
Žiga Dimec
Zoran Dragič
Bryant Dunston *
Nebojša Joksimovič
Jaka Klobučar
Alen Omič *
Klemen Prepelič
Uroš Slokar
Gašper Vidmar

with the 4-5 players mentioned above missing that's a severely limited roster.

Slovenia are going easy way too with american ? Lithuania and Serbs basically only 2 left countries which still goes playing their own boys...Most likely these 2 countries has biggest pride and tradicion of their basketball history...I read what teodocis said about naturalised players,its like 80% lithuanians think too.

Heck one day we should do same pay money to nba PG and with our depth and big frontcouart definetely would be in favorite list before champ.But the problem is that the "taste of wins" woudnt be the same...

Dirtyh
06-18-2015, 08:54 PM
But the problem is that the "taste of wins" woudnt be the same...

Amen. In Finland if you marry a Finn, speak proper finnish (test is very hard and our language is extremely hard) and live at least 3 years in Finland it is possible to be Finn. If you don't marry a Finn it's even two times harder. It is possible that you come from somewhere like 1 year old and you get passport when you are 18. And if you get passport you have to go to army. You have to.

If every countries would have such a rules there would not be problem at all.

Picek
06-19-2015, 06:32 AM
Most likely these 2 countries has biggest pride and tradicion of their basketball history...I read what teodocis said about naturalised players,its like 80% lithuanians think too.
.
serbian women basketball team currently playing at EC includes a player called Danielle Page from Colorado, USA. At the last EC serbian women team was fourth, then playing without a foreign player.
who knows what the future will bring...
But I agree, majority of the fans are against that, the only thing is we are not the ones who decide on that. Unfortunately.

Svoura
06-19-2015, 12:13 PM
The Greek Federation has taken a stand against naturalisations for years, although we could have used a big man such as Mike Batiste, who lived in the country for about 10 years and had every right to citizenship. They say that such a move would be bad for team chemistry, and unfair to the young Greek guys who aspire to play for the NT. That said, we have no problem with using Greek-Americans who do not even speak the language, such as Koufos and Calathes. And now we have Giannis Antetokounmpo, who is the son of an imiigrant family, but was born and raised and lived his whole life in Greece. It's a complicated situation, and there are no "rights" or "wrongs". I can certainly tell you that everyone here was very sarcastic and bitter when we lost to a FYROM team led by an American who barely knew where Skopje was back in 2009. But we laughed our heads off with JR Holden's winner for Russia two years earlier. At least Holden used to live and work in Moscow for years.

boz74
07-09-2015, 10:43 AM
The Greek Federation has taken a stand against naturalisations for years, although we could have used a big man such as Mike Batiste, who lived in the country for about 10 years and had every right to citizenship. They say that such a move would be bad for team chemistry, and unfair to the young Greek guys who aspire to play for the NT. That said, we have no problem with using Greek-Americans who do not even speak the language, such as Koufos and Calathes. And now we have Giannis Antetokounmpo, who is the son of an imiigrant family, but was born and raised and lived his whole life in Greece. It's a complicated situation, and there are no "rights" or "wrongs".
Antetokounmpo was born and raised in Greece, of course he should play for his country Greece. It's beyond me why he's even in this conversation.

Batiste playing for Greece would have made a lot more sense than Koufos, at least Batiste lived in Greece and played there for years. Once Batiste becomes a Greek citizen, he's certainly more of a Greek basketball player than Koufos, no matter which way you slice it.

FIBA should adopt IIHF rules, where a player like Koufos would only be eligible for Greece after 2 years in the Greek league. The idea that someone qualifies to a national team solely based on his "heritage" is ludicrous.

Svoura
07-09-2015, 05:56 PM
You have a point, but plase keep in mind that Koufos has played for the Greek national teams (from U18 to Men's) around 50 times,on three separate summers. Also, both his parents are 100% Greek. It's not an empty heritage.

boz74
07-11-2015, 07:56 AM
You have a point, but plase keep in mind that Koufos has played for the Greek national teams (from U18 to Men's) around 50 times,on three separate summers. Also, both his parents are 100% Greek. It's not an empty heritage.
Yes he played for Greek national teams, but shouldn't have been allowed to. He should have had to play in the Greek league first to even become eligible.

And his parents could be from Mars for all I care, it shouldn't make any difference either way.

Srle
07-15-2015, 08:58 PM
I am totally against it , its ruining the purpose of the national team competitions . But I must to admit , Danielle Page really have grown on me , she is basically volunteer in our women national basketball team, she doesn't have any monetary contract with our basketball federation, she even learned to sing our national anthem , because she wanted to, she completed the entire preparations before women Eurobasket , with our national team, and she played her butt off and in the process helped us won the women eurobasket for the first time in our basketball history , she's a very special person. But hopefully she's the first and last naturalize player for Serbia.

ThePeraCar
07-15-2015, 09:30 PM
I am totally against it , its ruining the purpose of the national team competitions . But I must to admit , Danielle Page really have grown on me , she is basically volunteer in our women national basketball team, she doesn't have any monetary contract with our basketball federation, she even learned to sing our national anthem , because she wanted to, she completed the entire preparations before women Eurobasket , with our national team, and she played her butt off and in the process helped us won the women eurobasket for the first time in our basketball history , she's a very special person. But hopefully she's the first and last naturalize player for Serbia.
this ^ another thing is i dont care about women bball and i dont follow it i dont watch it so its not important for me,but the moment we naturalize player(i mean some american player that never had anything to do with Serbia) i will not care for Serbian men NT,i mean i alredy have one club that i like and im its fan,it is Red Star

Levenspiel
07-15-2015, 09:59 PM
I am totally against it , its ruining the purpose of the national team competitions . But I must to admit , Danielle Page really have grown on me , she is basically volunteer in our women national basketball team, she doesn't have any monetary contract with our basketball federation, she even learned to sing our national anthem , because she wanted to, she completed the entire preparations before women Eurobasket , with our national team, and she played her butt off and in the process helped us won the women eurobasket for the first time in our basketball history , she's a very special person. But hopefully she's the first and last naturalize player for Serbia.
it's none of my business but I suspect these are all excuses needed to convince oneself. These stories are very similar to what we have heard about McCalebb (or about some others).

Victorious
07-15-2015, 11:30 PM
I am totally against it , its ruining the purpose of the national team competitions . But I must to admit , Danielle Page really have grown on me , she is basically volunteer in our women national basketball team, she doesn't have any monetary contract with our basketball federation, she even learned to sing our national anthem , because she wanted to, she completed the entire preparations before women Eurobasket , with our national team, and she played her butt off and in the process helped us won the women eurobasket for the first time in our basketball history , she's a very special person. But hopefully she's the first and last naturalize player for Serbia.

I vehemently oppose this view. Koufos participation in the Greek NT is 100% legit. The man is Greek. Simple as that. This man speaks fluently Greek and is very attached to the Greek American community. Just this summer he got married to a Greek-American woman. He once went to school carrying the Greek flag when Greece eliminated the USA at the WC in 2006. Calathes is more Americanized, but still. He is a Greek American. Surely, both this players could have chosen to play for the USA if they had the potential to do that. That would have been fair enough, but they choose to represent Greece given their Greek heritage. This sounds very reasonable to me.

In my opinion the Greek federation has kept its stand. Any player of Greek origin can play for Greece if he desire to do so. This has been their policy since the 60s and it has brought a lot of success for Greek basketball.
As for players such as Antetokoumpo. Not even worth discussing as they are born and raised in Greece. So if they choose to represent Greece than it goes without saying that they have every right to do so.

I am actually against the naturalization of players who are neither born, raised, nor have any ethnic connection to that country. Playing pro-basketball in that country for a few years does not suffice. So no. Mike Batiste playing for Greece, as much as I like him, would not have been right. He made the offer at times, but the Greek federation rightfully declined the offer.

Srle
07-16-2015, 12:46 AM
it's none of my business but I suspect these are all excuses needed to convince oneself. These stories are very similar to what we have heard about McCalebb (or about some others).

Actually she's not the first naturalized athlete in Serbian sport . There are few others who might represent us in Rio , there is a Russian swimmer and Russian judoka for example . But yes , I was sold on Page for all those reasons , when it was announced that she would be the first naturalized basketball player in our basketball history, the public reactions were mostly negative , but the way she carried herself , her personal sacrifice for our national team have changed the minds of many people, she had a very warm reception on the balcony of our national assembly ;) But I agree with Exitche, I would never accept naturalized player on our male national teams , to me personally , its the holly institution of Serbian sport :) that would be the sacrilege :)

boz74
07-16-2015, 11:58 AM
I vehemently oppose this view. Koufos participation in the Greek NT is 100% legit. The man is Greek. Simple as that.
He is an American basketball player, who incidentally happens to be of Greek origin.


This man speaks fluently Greek and is very attached to the Greek American community. Just this summer he got married to a Greek-American woman. He once went to school carrying the Greek flag when Greece eliminated the USA at the WC in 2006. Calathes is more Americanized, but still. He is a Greek American.
Keyword being: American.

Millions of people learn Greek, that does not make them Greek. Similarily, having learned English does not make you American or English.



As for players such as Antetokoumpo. Not even worth discussing as they are born and raised in Greece. So if they choose to represent Greece than it goes without saying that they have every right to do so.
Exactly. In fact it shouldn't even be their choice to make: they simply shouldn't be eligible for any country other than Greece. Their "ethnic connection" to the country of their parents is of no importance, since the teams are national teams, not ethnic teams.

Mindozas
07-16-2015, 12:41 PM
Great logic. Thnx to it, I just found out that Domantas Sabonis is not Lithuanian, but Spanish-American. He was born in US, grew up in Spain, so the country of his parents is not important, he must play for US or Spain, not Lithuania, it's national, not ethnic teams :rolleyes:

mchale
07-16-2015, 12:51 PM
He is an American basketball player, who incidentally happens to be of Greek origin.

Not incidentally.That his two parents were greek citizens it's a fact not incident and according to FIBA rules he is eligible to play as greek(not naturalized) in the Greek NT.Also according to the laws of the greek state he is a greek citizen.So I don't see the point.


Keyword being: American.

Millions of people learn Greek, that does not make them Greek. Similarily, having learned English does not make you American or Englis

Keyword: Dual nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship

Victorious
07-16-2015, 04:12 PM
Greeks born abroad may transmit citizenship to their children from generation to generation indefinitely.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_nationality_law

The Greek federation is abiding by the rules of the nationality law of Greece. There is no player in the Greek NT who bypassed this legal mainframe.

boz74
07-16-2015, 05:45 PM
Great logic. Thnx to it, I just found out that Domantas Sabonis is not Lithuanian, but Spanish-American. He was born in US, grew up in Spain, so the country of his parents is not important, he must play for US or Spain, not Lithuania, it's national, not ethnic teams :rolleyes:
You are correct: he should only be allowed to play for Spain or the USA, unless he is not a citizen of either country.

The country of his parents should indeed make no difference (see Tony Parker).

boz74
07-16-2015, 05:55 PM
Not incidentally.That his two parents were greek citizens it's a fact not incident and according to FIBA rules he is eligible to play as greek(not naturalized) in the Greek NT.Also according to the laws of the greek state he is a greek citizen.So I don't see the point.
Of course he's eligible according to FIBA rules. The point is that he shouldn't be.

Also according to the laws of the greek state Batiste is a Greek citizen (I'm assuming he did indeed get his citizenship) and so too are plenty of others.


Keyword: Dual nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship
So you discovered that people can have multiple citizenships. That's great. And your point is?

boz74
07-16-2015, 06:03 PM
There is no player in the Greek NT who bypassed this legal mainframe.
No one claimed that there was.

The point is that merely being a Greek citizen shouldn't be enough to be eligible for the national team. Indeed you yourself have argued that naturalized players shouldn't be eligible, so quite obviously you agree that a mere citizenship isn't enough.

Mindozas
07-16-2015, 06:30 PM
You are correct: he should only be allowed to play for Spain or the USA, unless he is not a citizen of either country.

The country of his parents should indeed make no difference (see Tony Parker).

Unless... he is a child born in Lithuanian family... but in US, cause his father was not that bad bball player and played in NBA, but kid was raised as Lithuanian with all the traditions/language, but not in Lithuania, cause again, his father played in USA and decided to live in Spain after that for some time to keep his family away from all the sick attention coming from Lith media. So kid grew up as Lithuanian, feels himself Lithuanian and can't play for his country cause his father played abroad and kept his family with him? Do you realise how ridiculous it sounds? I could agree that grandparents shouldn't count as some connection to country, but to say that parents should make no difference is insane, especially in current times with open borders, European Union and etc. when so many people are looking for the better living abroad, raising childs there and etc.

boz74
07-16-2015, 07:03 PM
Unless... he is a child born in Lithuanian family...
No, that shouldn't make him eligible for the Lithuanian national team. Again: see Tony Parker.


but in US, cause his father was not that bad bball player and played in NBA, but kid was raised as Lithuanian with all the traditions/language, but not in Lithuania, cause again, his father played in USA and decided to live in Spain after that for some time to keep his family away from all the sick attention coming from Lith media. So kid grew up as Lithuanian, feels himself Lithuanian and can't play for his country cause his father played abroad and kept his family with him?
None of the above is even remotely relevant to the Lithuanian basketball national team. He's not a product of Lith bball, there is nohing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player. The reasons why make no difference.


Do you realise how ridiculous it sounds?
That's not ridiculous at all. For the record, these are the rules used by the IIHF, an equally respectable organization.

What is ridiculous is the idea that someone should be allowed in a country's national sports team just because he has learned the language or has a parent from there or likes that country's cuisine and god knows what other irrelevant trivia you might come up with.


I could agree that grandparents shouldn't count as some connection to country, but to say that parents should make no difference is insane, especially in current times with open borders, European Union and etc. when so many people are looking for the better living abroad, raising childs there and etc.
The children raised in Germany should embrace the idea of joining the German national team.

That the borders are open is exactly why the parents' nationality will become increasingly irrelevant. The funny idea that your parents' nationality define you in any way will die out eventually as more and more people will realise they are defined by the country they grew up in, not the country of their parents.

See Adetokoumbo and Parker as examples. Parker's father went looking for the better living abroad, as you put it, and as a result his son is a French bb player, not an American one, as much as you might hate to admit it. There's absolutely nothing "insane" about that.

Mindozas
07-16-2015, 07:23 PM
What the hell Parker has to do with it? His father was who - American, mother Dutch, he was born in Belgium and raised in France... what did you expect him to choose? with which country he had the biggest conection? Obviously it was France. What the hell IIHF has to do with it? Is it some ministery of truth or right decisions or smth? It isn't. They has good rule to forbid McCalebb cases, that's all. Overall it's plain and simple sane logic - kid of Lithuanian parents must be allowed to play for Lithuanian NT. The same goes for any such case. Period. Kid might choose differently, like the same Parker did, if he doesn't feel any connections with country of his birth or with countries of his parents, but there must be no restrictions in cases like Domantas, thankfully there are not and atleast FIBA makes smth sane. Hopefully someday they will kick all the McCalebbs from NTs either

boz74
07-16-2015, 07:53 PM
What the hell Parker has to do with it? His father was who - American, mother Dutch, he was born in Belgium and raised in France... what did you expect him to choose? with which country he had the biggest conection? Obviously it was France.
I don't think it takes a genius to see what Parker has to do with this discussion: his situation is similar to Koufos and Sabonis Jr.

Parker chose the country he grew up in (where he wasn't even born as you noted), not the country of his parents. Not that he should even have been allowed to choose, mind you.



What the hell IIHF has to do with it?
They have implemented the rules that you find "insane".

Last time I checked, they are not any more "insane" than FIBA.

Their rules make perfect sense, and I for one think their rules are much better than FIBA's, or any other international body for that matter.

They have done a great job eliminating most of the "oriundi" that populated the national teams of Italy, France or Britain, and these countries are much better off for it.

All the oriundi (like Koufos) have to do is go play two seasons in the country they wish to represent. If they are such patriots that shouldn't be too much to ask. :rolleyes:


They has good rule to forbid McCalebb cases, that's all. Overall it's plain and simple sane logic - kid of Lithuanian parents must be allowed to play for Lithuanian NT.
Whether or not a kid of Lithuanian parents should be allowed to play for the Lithuanian national team has absolutely nothing to do with "logic", it is merely a matter of opinion.

Indeed you have failed to come up with any rational argument one way or the other, all you have done is repeating that disagreeing with you is "insane" or "ridiculous"; thats is: you're merely stating your opinion.

Mindozas
07-16-2015, 08:05 PM
Indeed you have failed to come up with any rational argument one way or the other, all you have done is repeating that disagreeing with you is "insane" or "ridiculous"; thats is: you're merely stating your opinion.

And you feel you did smth different? And Of course, it looks irrational when kid of Lith parents is allowed to play in LT NT... I rest my case here, felt that it might be time wasting since first post - approved

boz74
07-17-2015, 08:55 AM
And you feel you did smth different? And Of course, it looks irrational when kid of Lith parents is allowed to play in LT NT... I rest my case here, felt that it might be time wasting since first post - approved
We both have been stating our opinions, since the disagreement is about opinions, and not "logic". Thanks for making my point. :rolleyes:

And of course, it looks perfectly rational to disallow a kid of Lith parents to play for the Lith NT if he never actually played there. Just because you disagree with something does not make it "irrational".

It is indeed a waste of time discussing with someone like you who is so utterly unable to distinguish his mere opinions from "facts" or "logic".

Storžievis
07-17-2015, 04:16 PM
We both have been stating our opinions, since the disagreement is about opinions, and not "logic". Thanks for making my point. :rolleyes:

And of course, it looks perfectly rational to disallow a kid of Lith parents to play for the Lith NT if he never actually played there. Just because you disagree with something does not make it "irrational".

It is indeed a waste of time discussing with someone like you who is so utterly unable to distinguish his mere opinions from "facts" or "logic".

If I may interject, there are many reasons why there is nothing irrational that Sabonis would play for Lithuania.
1) He was born to Lithuanian parents
2) His name is Lithuanian
3) He speaks in Lithuanian
4) He has represented Lithuanian youth teams since 16 years old = he feels Lithuanian

He is not product of Lithuanian basketball system but so is national team member Pocius, Songaila, Jasikevicius and so on other players who plaid in USA high school and college system. So your argument is not valid.

Yes, Lithuania basketball federation could be asses and not allow Sabonis to play but FIBA on reason 4 above will not be able to stop Sabonis from participation. He has American and Lithuanian citizenship, not Spanish afaik.

Naturalised players should not be allowed when they have no connection to country that they playing for. Example: Langford, Rice, Jeter, McCalebb and other Americans. Sabonis is much closer to homeland than any of those players.

boz74
07-17-2015, 04:51 PM
If I may interject, there are many reasons why there is nothing irrational that Sabonis would play for Lithuania.
1) He was born to Lithuanian parents
2) His name is Lithuanian
3) He speaks in Lithuanian
4) He has represented Lithuanian youth teams since 16 years old = he feels Lithuanian
I never said it was "irrational".

I simply disagree that points 1 to 3 should be enough for someone to become eligible to a country's national team, especially points 2 and 3: should someone learning a foreign language become eligible to whichever countries speak that language? Of course not.

Also if he has Lithuanian parents, I don't see what his Lithuanian name adds to that: you make it sound like having Lithuanian parents but no Lithuanian name makes someone less Lithuanian. That's gross.

As for point 4, you're basically arguing that he should be allowed to the NT because he was allowed in the NT. That's circular logic ! Of course I'm arguing he shoulnd't have been allowed in the youth teams in the first place.


He is not product of Lithuanian basketball system but so is national team member Pocius, Songaila, Jasikevicius and so on other players who plaid in USA high school and college system. So your argument is not valid.
All of them did play in Lithuania and are thus products of the Lithuanian basketball system, so the point stands.

You might also want to realise that (to my knowledge) none of them hold any other citizenship.

But regardless, assuming there was indeed another player who did play in the NT without having played in the country before, it obviously does not invalidate the argument that such players shouldn't be allowed in the NT. That's just poor logic on your part.



Naturalised players should not be allowed when they have no connection to country that they playing for. Example: Langford, Rice, Jeter, McCalebb and other Americans. Sabonis is much closer to homeland than any of those players.
While I agree Sabonis is probably closer to his country, that's a moot point: none of them should be allowed anyway.

auris1
07-17-2015, 05:30 PM
I ......felt that it might be time wasting since first post -

Indeed you were.
Anyways ,I was thinking about it and came to realise that we indeed had a few players who ,judging by the citizenship standards Lithuania as a country has nowadays ,were a bit off.
If Alijevas case is pretty straightforward,were his dad was foreign and his mum native to Lithuania ,plus he was born in Kaunas ,then Anisimov's case is completely opposite - he came to Lithuania just because for opportunistic reasons as far as I am aware. Indeed he became world under 21 champion ,had a decent career in Klaipeda and lrytas before he moved back to Ukraine for good. Both of them ,although very talented at junior level, never progressed far enough to be playing for our NT team. Even if it happened , I do not think that there would had been any opposition from Lithuanian public .
Regarding the players born abroad to Lithuanian parents but without citizenship nothing much changed since 1992 when players like Joe Arlauckas or Leo Rautins were more than welcome to come and join our team up till Nick Stauskas saga .
I have no issues with players like Koufos or Calathes representing Greece as well.
But, as many people here ,I have to draw the line where favours are exchanging hands when player gets EU passport for them to represent Nt team.

auris1
07-17-2015, 06:08 PM
More and more players representing one country were born away abroad . And that is a trend that will increase in a future. Some of thEm will be/ are born to parent with different nationalities .
Let's see how many cases I can find for current under 20 u teams who were born away from the country they are representing.
Bosnia and Hercegovina - 3.
Croatia - 3.
France -1
GB -3
Greece- 1
Israel -4
Italy-1
Lithuania -2
Russia-1
Serbia -2
Slovenia-1
Spain-1
One or two or perhaps more players were born were born in the country they represent ,but have dual nationality parents.
So that is that. And this trend is going to increase with time.
How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination

boz74
07-17-2015, 06:29 PM
Country of birth should make no difference.

The issue with a player like Koufos is not where he was born, it is where he grew up and, more specifically, where he played his basketball.



How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination
If they have only ever played basketball in country D, then of course they should only be allowed to play for that country, unless for some reason they have not gained citizenship in that country.

Joško Poljak Fan
07-17-2015, 07:57 PM
So by those standards Kobe Bryant could've technicaly selected to play for Italy. Born in the States, moved to Italy when 6 or something like that and moved back to the states at the age of 13 when his dad retired, let's say his dad would play 2 more years, would that make it natural for Kobe to play for Italian U15 by your standards?
I think I already know the answer to that one :)

Some people might dislike the whole concept of nationality or citizenship, while I understand some parts of those arguements I still tend to disagree with them, while that philosophy applies to this topic terribly as we could just abolish national teams alltogether in that case.

boz74
07-17-2015, 09:07 PM
So by those standards Kobe Bryant could've technicaly selected to play for Italy. Born in the States, moved to Italy when 6 or something like that and moved back to the states at the age of 13 when his dad retired, let's say his dad would play 2 more years, would that make it natural for Kobe to play for Italian U15 by your standards?
I think I already know the answer to that one :)
I'm pretty sure he's not an Italian citizen.


Some people might dislike the whole concept of nationality or citizenship, while I understand some parts of those arguements I still tend to disagree with them, while that philosophy applies to this topic terribly as we could just abolish national teams alltogether in that case.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

If FIBA were to alter eligibility rules so that either McCalebb or Koufos or both would become ineligible, then we could just abolish national teams altogether? Is that what you're saying?

Upi
07-17-2015, 09:38 PM
A 'national team' seems to mean different things to different people. I don't really see a national team as some all-star representation of a national league, as it seems some (boz74?) would like it to be. I think there can be other competition formats for that purpose. I also DON'T (edit) think that if and where a person practiced and played basketball has much to do with a given person's nationality and eligilbility to represent a national team, but may play a part in someone's citizenship. I just think that a member of any national team should play in the team for other reasons than money and a player with a dual citizenship should at least not be able to hop back and forth between national teams.

IIHF rules aren't very clear cut by the way when it comes to naturalized players (there are all sorts of exceptions).

boz74
07-17-2015, 09:50 PM
It does not seem to me that the ice hockey national teams are even remotely close to being some all-star representation of a national league, surely as a Finn you know that.

And IIHF rules are very clear when it comes to players like Koufos or McCalebb: neither would be eligible.

Storžievis
07-17-2015, 11:17 PM
The IIFH rules are logical, but they are ineficient. There would be players who feel connected to their homeland trough parents but not able to play because they grew up at another country because parents decide to move there. Players should be able to play in whichever country they feels most attached - that would be eficient from society view.

But problem is, that people like Langford, Rice, Jeter, they have no shame in taking citizenship of another country to which they have no connections. They do not valuing another countrys culture, language and meaning of citizenship. And countrys have no shame giving citizenship to aliens just to be strong and do better in international turnaments.

All deals for automatic naturalisation of any player who do not try to assimilate to country they want to play in should be made illegal in first place, with heavy fines to countrys federation to discourage behavior. Marriage or no marriage, if player does not know meaning of citizenship of country and not even trying to learn language, he does not simply play in that country.

Second, players who grown up in another country but feeling more attachment to homeland country should be allowed to play in homeland country (Sabonis case). Players who grown up in another country and feeling attachment to that country should play in that country also (Tony Parker case).

That is my opinion, most fellow Lithuanians will have similar opinion about this topic.

Upi
07-18-2015, 06:11 AM
It does not seem to me that the ice hockey national teams are even remotely close to being some all-star representation of a national league, surely as a Finn you know that.

And IIHF rules are very clear when it comes to players like Koufos or McCalebb: neither would be eligible.

Actually I agree with you about the IIHF rules (being better than the bastketball naturalization rules), but I also think that IIHF rules would allow Storzievis' Sabonis case and would allow him to represent Lithuania. He would have to petition for the right, but it would be clear-cut case (unless he had already chosen to play in e.g. a US or Spanish national team), like it was e.g. in the case of Teemu Selänne's 18y old son who has a dual citizenship and who just represented Finland in U18 tournament, although he has lived all his life abroad in the US/Canada where his father worked. Looking into Koufos' case, I'm 100% he could have represented Greece in ice hockey also, but what comes to McCaleb and Macedonia, IIHF rules would have allowed that too, just take a look at the South Korean's national team in ice hockey with several naturalized players.

boz74
07-18-2015, 07:26 AM
You are misinformed.

Eetu Selänne has not played for Finland in any IIHF-sanctionned tournament, only in an u-18 friendly tournament to which IIHF rules do not apply.

As for the Korean players, all of them have played two years in the Korean league prior to being selected to the NT, see http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=13507 or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11107 for example, so their case is different from McCalebb's.

BiHBasket
07-18-2015, 08:27 AM
More and more players representing one country were born away abroad . And that is a trend that will increase in a future. Some of thEm will be/ are born to parent with different nationalities .
Let's see how many cases I can find for current under 20 u teams who were born away from the country they are representing.
Bosnia and Hercegovina - 3.
Croatia - 3.
France -1
GB -3
Greece- 1
Israel -4
Italy-1
Lithuania -2
Russia-1
Serbia -2
Slovenia-1
Spain-1
One or two or perhaps more players were born were born in the country they represent ,but have dual nationality parents.
So that is that. And this trend is going to increase with time.
How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination

Those three players are:

Lakić is born in Serbia just because his Bosnian hometown is close to Serbian border and they had better hospital than his hometown. Same situation with Milanović, just his hometown is near Montenegro border. So they were just born there and immediately came back. As for Polutak, his family moved to Swiss from Bosnia as war refugees, so that's why he was born there.

So none of them is naturalized:) There are a lot of Bosnians in other national teams(especially Slovenia), but as for me they are not Bosnians anymore anyway, just a bunch of pathetic traitors:)

Upi
07-18-2015, 09:30 AM
You are misinformed.

Eetu Selänne has not played for Finland in any IIHF-sanctionned tournament, only in an u-18 friendly tournament to which IIHF rules do not apply.

And everything I stated still stands.


As for the Korean players, all of them have played two years in the Korean league prior to being selected to the NT, see http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=13507 or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11107 for example, so their case is different from McCalebb's.

Still does not change the fact that they got fast tracked naturalizations only in order to play ice hockey for S.Korea and it looks like IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalized players.

boz74
07-18-2015, 10:30 AM
And everything I stated still stands.
No, you stated that Eetu petitioned to the IIHF and the IIHF granted him the right to play for Finland. The IIHF did not grant him that right.


Still does not change the fact that they got fast tracked naturalizations only in order to play ice hockey for S.Korea and it looks like IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalized players.
The IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalizations, you got that part correct.

However, you said the Korean players' case was similar to that of McCalebb's, and that therefore McCalebb would have been allowed by the IIHF as well.

That is obviously incorrect: McCalebb did not play the two seasons in Macedonia that are mandatory according to IIHF rules, and would therefore be deemed ineligible for that country's national team, as is every hockey player in the same situation.

Levenspiel
07-18-2015, 11:14 AM
But problem is, that people like Langford, Rice, Jeter, they have no shame in taking citizenship of another country to which they have no connections. They do not valuing another countrys culture, language and meaning of citizenship. And countrys have no shame giving citizenship to aliens just to be strong and do better in international turnaments.

All deals for automatic naturalisation of any player who do not try to assimilate to country they want to play in should be made illegal in first place, with heavy fines to countrys federation to discourage behavior. Marriage or no marriage, if player does not know meaning of citizenship of country and not even trying to learn language, he does not simply play in that country.
I am personally not sure if FIBA wants to avoid McCalebb-like cases. They've seemed to encourage it actually. Maybe to help boosting the level of bball in those counties.

In women competitions especially, almost all (maybe all?) NTs, even the best bball countries, add an American WNBA player in their roster, and it's like a norm now. it's actually ridiculous, just like the old days when we had "club" teams with 1 American.

Levenspiel
07-18-2015, 11:24 AM
Bball nations and bball community in general are fine with ethnic-based justifications for now, and to me it has also been the case (Koufos, Calathes, Sabonis, etc). I actually never considered Sabonis case, as it would be no-brainer.

At least in football, Turkey benefited hugely from Europe-born Turkish players, and we were upset for a while because Mesut Ozil, Hakan Yakin, Gokhan Inler, etc did not choose Turkish NT. It felt like they should have, even if they did not grow up.

But, I see boz74's point. Maybe not to that extend to prevent Sabonis's eligibility, but there should be a more strict limit. 2-years time in domestic league it could be or FIBA can limit the depth of ethic-ties (max 1 generation deep, maybe?). Otherwise, we will all start complaining when German, England, Ireland, etc NT's start bringing NBA stars and suddenly become bball powerhouses :). It's theoretically possible (and could be justified in the same logic).

cagney
07-18-2015, 05:32 PM
The question really becomes, what is being evaluated in international sporting competition? Is it the ability of a certain ethnic group or a particular country's citizens? Or is it a country's sporting culture and the expertise/resources to develop young athletes to play a certain sport? Different governing bodies of particular sports place differing emphasis on these various factors.

Culture clearly influences people in these matters. People from more ethnically/culturally homogeneous countries tend to identify along those lines and have no issues welcoming members of their diaspora who've learned the game abroad. People from more ethnically/culturally diverse countries are less influenced by such matters. Neither side is "wrong", but the emphasis on ethnicity/culture does have an issue in my eyes.

If a country with no heritage in a particular sport either "imports" players from, or sends a large amount of young citizens to, a country that's world renown for developing players in that sport, then becomes a world power without any domestic ability to develop those players, is there much to be proud of? Conversely, if that country works hard on their own to develop the methods to create those players, wouldn't it be that much more satisfying and prove that much more about that country if they could find success?

Of course, most sports were historically created in one country and at some point, for the game to grow, require the influence of that country on others to foment interest/enthusiasm for the sport. Success is the best way to breed interest/enthusiasm in any given country for a sport, so if at some point, using players that were not developed domestically leads to the growth of the game in that country, the ends might justify the means.

It's not an entirely clear issue but, given the passage of time since many of the worlds popular sports were created, I think the emphasis really needs to move towards development over ethnicity/culture. I don't expect there will ever be an entirely "pure" system in this heavily globalized world but it raises the value of the competition in any given sport to continue working towards such a system. At the very least, I think it makes perfect sense for an athlete to spend some amount of time in the country they wish to represent before they're eligible to do so.

auris1
07-18-2015, 07:18 PM
Those three players are:

Lakić is born in Serbia just because his Bosnian hometown is close to Serbian border and they had better hospital than his hometown. Same situation with Milanović, just his hometown is near Montenegro border. So they were just born there and immediately came back. As for Polutak, his family moved to Swiss from Bosnia as war refugees, so that's why he was born there.

So none of them is naturalized:) There are a lot of Bosnians in other national teams(especially Slovenia), but as for me they are not Bosnians anymore anyway, just a bunch of pathetic traitors:)
Look, I was just pointing to the fact that some players were born away from the country they represent . No big deal,right?
But I am kind of thrown back with you calling some people pathetic traitors just because they chose to represent different country . There' is such a term as freedom of choice and you have to respect that whether you like or not.

vaslover
07-19-2015, 12:03 AM
I don,t like the current situation with Anton Gavel. Fuc..ing dangerous precedent could be once again. He played for Slovak NT in FIBA EuroBasket 2007,2009,2011 division B and also played for Slovak NT at the FIBA EuroBasket 2013 qualification tournament. He played in 4(!!!!!!!!!!!) OFFICIAL FIBA tournaments for his native NT and now this clown hopes to play at Eurobasket with German NT! He has german passport since 2012. He said "I,ve played in the past for my native country but now i would like to play for Germany, the country that become a second home for me"..... IMHO, there are no words to express how sad this is. If eventually FIBA europe will allow him to play for German NT, it will be complete collapse of the entire FIBA Europe system.... Yes, we know precedents with Evtimov,Preldzic, but still..... What a shame actually.......:mad:

Svoura
07-19-2015, 10:21 AM
I don,t like the current situation with Anton Gavel. Fuc..ing dangerous precedent could be once again. He played for Slovak NT in FIBA EuroBasket 2007,2009,2011 division B and also played for Slovak NT at the FIBA EuroBasket 2013 qualification tournament. He played in 4(!!!!!!!!!!!) OFFICIAL FIBA tournaments for his native NT and now this clown hopes to play at Eurobasket with German NT! He has german passport since 2012. He said "I,ve played in the past for my native country but now i would like to play for Germany, the country that become a second home for me"..... IMHO, there are no words to express how sad this is. If eventually FIBA europe will allow him to play for German NT, it will be complete collapse of the entire FIBA Europe system.... Yes, we know precedents with Evtimov,Preldzic, but still..... What a shame actually.......:mad:

I think Gavel stands no chance of playing for Germany. We have a similar situation here with Sasha Vezenkov. Both his parents are Bulgarian, but he grew up in Cyprus and Greece, he spent his hole career with Aris, and he only speaks Greek. Nevertheless, he chose to represent Bulgaria, and he even played with them in major official tournaments, including the senior NT (although he's just 19). Should he be eligible for Greece, too? By some fans' logic, here, he shouldn't even be eligible for Bulgaria. By the way, he has signed for Barcelona for next season.

Levenspiel
07-19-2015, 11:49 AM
I think Gavel stands no chance of playing for Germany. We have a similar situation here with Sasha Vezenkov. Both his parents are Bulgarian, but he grew up in Cyprus and Greece, he spent his hole career with Aris, and he only speaks Greek. Nevertheless, he chose to represent Bulgaria, and he even played with them in major official tournaments, including the senior NT (although he's just 19). Should he be eligible for Greece, too? By some fans' logic, here, he shouldn't even be eligible for Bulgaria. By the way, he has signed for Barcelona for next season.
That's exactly what came my mind as well. I once listened to an interview by Vezenkov, and he sounded like he really wanted to represent Bulgaria, even if he has not lived over there as you mentioned. I think we should also respect that.

in additon to vaslover's examples, Ermal Kuqo also have represented two different NTs; Turkish and Albanian.

Levenspiel
07-19-2015, 12:07 PM
The question really becomes, what is being evaluated in international sporting competition? Is it the ability of a certain ethnic group or a particular country's citizens? Or is it a country's sporting culture and the expertise/resources to develop young athletes to play a certain sport? Different governing bodies of particular sports place differing emphasis on these various factors.

Culture clearly influences people in these matters. People from more ethnically/culturally homogeneous countries tend to identify along those lines and have no issues welcoming members of their diaspora who've learned the game abroad. People from more ethnically/culturally diverse countries are less influenced by such matters. Neither side is "wrong", but the emphasis on ethnicity/culture does have an issue in my eyes.

If a country with no heritage in a particular sport either "imports" players from, or sends a large amount of young citizens to, a country that's world renown for developing players in that sport, then becomes a world power without any domestic ability to develop those players, is there much to be proud of? Conversely, if that country works hard on their own to develop the methods to create those players, wouldn't it be that much more satisfying and prove that much more about that country if they could find success?

Of course, most sports were historically created in one country and at some point, for the game to grow, require the influence of that country on others to foment interest/enthusiasm for the sport. Success is the best way to breed interest/enthusiasm in any given country for a sport, so if at some point, using players that were not developed domestically leads to the growth of the game in that country, the ends might justify the means.

It's not an entirely clear issue but, given the passage of time since many of the worlds popular sports were created, I think the emphasis really needs to move towards development over ethnicity/culture. I don't expect there will ever be an entirely "pure" system in this heavily globalized world but it raises the value of the competition in any given sport to continue working towards such a system. At the very least, I think it makes perfect sense for an athlete to spend some amount of time in the country they wish to represent before they're eligible to do so.
Very good questions.

I think things are a bit ethnic/culture oriented in Europe, as most nations still consider the sports competitions as modern versions of field battles. At least in Eastern Europe, particularly in Balkans. Any game between politically conflicting nations is usually very intense, and for many people this is what makes Euro competitions special; that is more emotional for players and the spectators.

When looked from this ("primitive") perspective, in a war, Cedi Osman for example (Turkish kid born in Macedonia) is supposedly gonna fight harder for Turkey than he would for the FYROM, or he'd sacrifice more for Turkey than Preldzic would. Same things could be said for Koufos vs Vezenkov maybe, but I don't really know that.

This are all assumptions, of course, but I think this is how "most" people see the sports in Balkans.

Victorious
07-19-2015, 12:33 PM
Very good questions.

I think things are a bit ethnic/culture oriented in Europe, as most nations still consider the sports competitions as modern versions of field battles. At least in Eastern Europe, particularly in Balkans. Any game between politically conflicting nations is usually very intense, and for many people this is what makes Euro competitions special; that is more emotional for players and the spectators.

When looked from this ("primitive") perspective, in a war, Cedi Osman for example (Turkish kid born in Macedonia) is supposedly gonna fight harder for Turkey than he would for the FYROM, or he'd sacrifice more for Turkey than Preldzic would. Same things could be said for Koufos vs Vezenkov maybe, but I don't really know that.

This are all assumptions, of course, but I think this is how "most" people see the sports in Balkans.

It is not exclusively about desire, bigger basketball nations offer players better perspectives for their future. This clouds players judgement. Vezenkov may be an exception. But I am not sure how passionate he is for representing Bulgaria rather than Greece. I don't think he ever had that option. He was never invited to play for Greece. He was born in Cyprus from ethnic Bulgarian parents. So for Greece he is thus a recent immigrant without Greek roots, which means that he has to choose to represent either Cyprus or Bulgaria. And he went for Bulgaria. If he would have been born and raised in Greece, like Antetokoumpo, then I'm quite sure he would have played for Greece.

boz74
07-19-2015, 07:56 PM
That's exactly what came my mind as well. I once listened to an interview by Vezenkov, and he sounded like he really wanted to represent Bulgaria, even if he has not lived over there as you mentioned. I think we should also respect that.
What if he really wanted to represent Finland instead, should we also repect that? And didn't McCalebb really want to represent Macedonia?

That's opening a huge can of worms if national team eligibility is governed by what the players "really want".

Storžievis
07-20-2015, 04:40 AM
What if he really wanted to represent Finland instead, should we also repect that? And didn't McCalebb really want to represent Macedonia?

That's opening a huge can of worms if national team eligibility is governed by what the players "really want".

I think two parties have to agree, the player and government. If player wants to play in national team for country, that is okey, but government has to set rules for citizenship - test language, carry out the interview for why he wants to become citizen - it has to be unselfish reason that shows patriotism to country.

Macedonia government was too much liberal giveing out citizenship to McCalebb, he wanted and he got it, with no language, no patriotism and no connection. It was a slap in the face of true Macedonian people. Shame to government for allowing this.

FIBA should fine those countries by banning country participation in turnament or something, because if there are no fines, countries are being encouraged to have more naturalised players and think it is okey to do that.

boz74
07-20-2015, 08:57 AM
Wait a minute, you are proposing that FIBA keep rules that allow players like McCalebb to play for Macedonia, only to fine or ban their country once they have played?

Surely it would make a lot more sense if FIBA simply had it in their rules that such players are not allowed in the NT. This way, you have no need to fine anyone any more, you simply have a player who doesn't get to play for that NT.

The advantage is also that it completely eliminates the need for any scrutiny over the way the various countries give citizenships.

I mean, while I can agree that it's a slap to the face of the Macedonian people that individuals that never set foot in the country can get a citizenship, while I can agree with that, that's not particularly relevant to bball national teams, and it's obviously not FIBA's business to decide who is a Macedonian citizen and who isn't.

That's why the requirement that the players have to have played at least two seasons in the country they wish to represent makes the most sense: it is an efficient, practical, easily verifiable, bball-related criteria, as opposed to completely abstract concepts like "patriotism" that are by nature impossible to verify and have little to do with bball national teams anyway. Of course the same requirement would also apply to Koufos or Sabonis. Surely if they are such patriots that's not too much to ask.

Victorious
07-20-2015, 09:17 AM
What if he really wanted to represent Finland instead, should we also repect that? And didn't McCalebb really want to represent Macedonia?

That's opening a huge can of worms if national team eligibility is governed by what the players "really want".

Vezenkov is an ethnic Bulgarian who wanted to play for Bulgaria. Under Bulgarian law he had every right to become a Bulgarian national. He had no right to get a Finnish passport, because he is not an ethnic Fin. So, even if he wanted to play for Finland it would have been impossible. Unless a naturalization procedure was invoked such as the case of McCalebb.

boz74
07-20-2015, 09:30 AM
Vezenkov is an ethnic Bulgarian who wanted to play for Bulgaria. Under Bulgarian law he had every right to become a Bulgarian national. He had no right to get a Finnish passport, because he is not an ethnic Fin. So, even if he wanted to play for Finland it would have been impossible. Unless a naturalization procedure was invoked such as the case of McCalebb.
So the bottom line is that it would have been possible.

Levenspiel
07-20-2015, 09:45 AM
boz74, you knew very well what I meant.

The disagreement stands. You argue that ethnic ties should not be a justification to represent a country, while I and a few other members think otherwise; it should/could be, at least for the 1st generation. Vezenkov's desire to play for Bulgaria should be respected because he's Bulgarian through his parents. McCalebb doesn't satisfy the first criteria, so it doesn't matter if he really wants to represent FYRoM or not.

Victorious
07-20-2015, 09:53 AM
So the bottom line is that it would have been possible.

Under FIBA's rules, yes. I am all in favor of reversing the rules which allow for naturalization.

But cases such as Vezenkov, Sabonis and the like are perfectly legit. And there is nothing FIBA can do about that. Nor should they.

Svoura
07-20-2015, 10:06 AM
The bottom line is, there are rules and they should be followed by everyone. Unless rules are changed, you can not blame anyone for any legit move.

Dirtyh
07-20-2015, 10:40 AM
My thoughts about Koufos/Sabonis-cases.

IIHF's 2 year rule is pretty ok. My opinion is that if players takes part for youth competition or lives 2 (3 would be better) in the country it's more than fair that he/she could play for NT.

My thoughts about McCaleb-cases.

It's okay that players who get their passports before they are under 18/20 year old is fine if they have lived in the country that same 3 years can play for NT (Ibaka-case). Players that got passport after their 18./20. birthday should never get a change to play for NT.

World is becoming a lot of smaller place than it was. That's why we need to have better rules that we have right now.

boz74
07-20-2015, 10:48 AM
boz74, you knew very well what I meant.

The disagreement stands. You argue that ethnic ties should not be a justification to represent a country, while I and a few other members think otherwise; it should/could be, at least for the 1st generation. Vezenkov's desire to play for Bulgaria should be respected because he's Bulgarian through his parents. McCalebb doesn't satisfy the first criteria, so it doesn't matter if he really wants to represent FYRoM or not.
At the end of the day though, either you're eligible or you're not, really wanting to be eligible does not make it so. Vezenkov is eligible for Bulgaria because he is a Bulgarian citizen, not because he "really wants" it. Similarily McCalebb is a Macedonian citizen just like Vezenkov is a Bulgarian citizen, which makes him eligible disirregardless of what he "really wants". In both cases, what the players really want makes no difference.

If you are going to change the rules so that they prevent a Macedonian citizen from joining the NT unless he has played there for two seasons, then of course they should also prevent Bulgarian citizens from joining the NT if they didn't play in Bulgaria for two years. What kind of patriot is that who refuses to play in his country for a mere two seasons? For someone who compares national sports teams to war, your standards when it comes to patriotism are surprisingly low.

BiHBasket
07-20-2015, 11:12 AM
Emir Preldžić is born and raised in Bosnia, when he was 16 years old he moved in Slovenia and played for their youth national teams, later he moved in Turkey and played for their national team.

Is this even legal, Fiba have different rules when it's about Turkey:rolleyes:

Victorious
07-20-2015, 11:37 AM
I think this two year rule is silly. It would mean that every player which has a two year contract for a club would be eligible to play for that country. So McCalebb could play for Italy because he played for Siena for a few seasons. That makes no sense at all. Moreover, it is easy for countries with a strong basketball league to attract good players like McCalebb who would never sign for a scrappy clubteam in FYRoM. So small basketball countries will have a disadvantage not only in national leagues, but also in signing naturalized players.
Koufos could perhaps play for a Greek team like Pao, as Calathes did, but would Vezenkov do the same for a Bulgarian team? Is throwing one year away a good way for showing ones patriotism?

Dirtyh also mentioned that it is proper to naturalize players at an early age. Like Ibaka's case. I would object to that, because young talents are snatched from small basketball nations, after which these countries fail to produce good players and popularize the game.

You are either born and raised in that country or you have roots from that country. Then you should be eligible to play for the national team. It is the only way that makes sense.

Levenspiel
07-20-2015, 11:38 AM
At the end of the day though, either you're eligible or you're not, really wanting to be eligible does not make it so. Vezenkov is eligible for Bulgaria because he is a Bulgarian citizen, not because he "really wants" it. Similarily McCalebb is a Macedonian citizen just like Vezenkov is a Bulgarian citizen, which makes him eligible disirregardless of what he "really wants". In both cases, what the players really want makes no difference.

True. Eligibility has nothing to do with "wanting". And I did not say otherwise. Just like it happened to Svoura, Gavel's situation reminded also me of Vezenkov's case, had he wanted to play for Greece. But he seemed like he doesn't, and I just added a comment about respecting his decision to play for Bulgaria (rather than Greece). I did not say that's why he should be allowed.



If you are going to change the rules so that they prevent a Macedonian citizen from joining the NT unless he has played there for two seasons, then of course they should also prevent Bulgarian citizens from joining the NT if they didn't play in Bulgaria for two years. What kind of patriot is that who refuses to play in his country for a mere two seasons? For someone who compares national sports teams to war, your standards when it comes to patriotism are surprisingly low.
Again, I did not say what you are implying here. I actually agree in an earlier post that having to play 2-years at home can be one measure.

boz74
07-20-2015, 12:03 PM
I think this two year rule is silly. It would mean that every player which has a two year contract for a club would be eligible to play for that country. So McCalebb could play for Italy because he played for Siena for a few seasons. That makes no sense at all.
Well he could play for Macedonia despite having no contract at all, surely requiring him to play in the country for two seasons is an improvement, right?

Also, I'm not sure why you assume he would have been given an Italian citizenship. It does appear the bigger the country the less likely they are to give dubious citizenships.


Moreover, it is easy for countries with a strong basketball league to attract good players like McCalebb who would never sign for a scrappy clubteam in FYRoM. So small basketball countries will have a disadvantage not only in national leagues, but also in signing naturalized players. Koufos could perhaps play for a Greek team like Pao, as Calathes did, but would Vezenkov do the same for a Bulgarian team? Is throwing one year away a good way for showing ones patriotism?
Vezenkov could definitely play in Bulgaria, and making it mandatory for him to do so would be an added incentive for players to play in such leagues, which is a good thing in and of itself.

Besides, Koufos is only a marginal improvement over other Greece players, while McCalebb is accused of singlehandedly carrying to the Euro semifinals a team which supposedly had otherwise no business being there. So there's nothing particularly "unfair" about allowing Koufos to play for Greece (provided he plays there for two seasons) all the while preventing McCalebb from playing for Macedonia: if anything it's a more accurate reflection of the respective countries' basketball systems.


You are either born and raised in that country or you have roots from that country. Then you should be eligible to play for the national team.
Even leaving aside the debate over ethnicity, why the birth requirement? What purpose does it serve? Is Tony Parker any less of a Frenchman because he was born in Belgium rather than France?

boz74
07-20-2015, 12:23 PM
I actually agree in an earlier post that having to play 2-years at home can be one measure.
But you also said that "You argue that ethnic ties should not be a justification to represent a country, while I and a few other members think otherwise".

Does that mean you think that FIBA rules should be altered so that Vezenkov isn't allowed to play for Bulgaria (until he actually plays there)?

If so, it seems to me you do agree that ethnic ties shouldn't be enough to be allowed in a country's national team.

I'm sorry I find it difficult to understand what your contention really is.

Storžievis
07-20-2015, 04:48 PM
Why two years? Sabonis does not play in Lithuania because teams are too weak for talent he has and pressure to play good is too big. He need to develop with good players in strong league like ACB, not in LKL and develop with no too much attention.

His father was smart, he thoght about future of Lithuania basketball and made his son train with good players from early age. Not having Sabonis on national team will undermine his fathers effort to make Lithuania basketball stronger.

Anyway he has Lithuanian citizenship, speaks Lithuanian, parents Lithuanian, played for Lithuania in youth turnaments since 16 years old, so no problem. In any case it would not be a crime at all, that he plays for Lithuania team. More reason for him to play than not play.

IIHF rules are anything but efficient if Sabonis case does not give elegiblity. I am almost certain he would not play to Spain or USA and be unhappy to not play for Lithuania.

boz74
07-20-2015, 06:24 PM
Why two years?
Make it 4 years if you wish.


Sabonis does not play in Lithuania because teams are too weak for talent he has and pressure to play good is too big. He need to develop with good players in strong league like ACB, not in LKL and develop with no too much attention.

His father was smart, he thoght about future of Lithuania basketball and made his son train with good players from early age. Not having Sabonis on national team will undermine his fathers effort to make Lithuania basketball stronger.

Anyway he has Lithuanian citizenship, speaks Lithuanian, parents Lithuanian, played for Lithuania in youth turnaments since 16 years old, so no problem. In any case it would not be a crime at all, that he plays for Lithuania team. More reason for him to play than not play.

IIHF rules are anything but efficient if Sabonis case does not give elegiblity. I am almost certain he would not play to Spain or USA and be unhappy to not play for Lithuania.
As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

You basically argue that the only reason he becomes a good player is that he never had to play in Lithuania. Well if that is true, then that is exactly why he shouln't be playing for Lithuania: there is no reason why Lithuania should be allowed to take advantage of the quality of Spain's youth system.

We see that a lot in the football, where some African teams are full of French players and unfairly take advantage of France's youth system. That's not what national teams are supposed to be about.

Big Lebowski
07-20-2015, 10:25 PM
What the hell Parker has to do with it? His father was who - American, mother Dutch, he was born in Belgium and raised in France... what did you expect him to choose?

Parker might play one quarter with USA, one quarter with the Netherlands, one quarter with Belgium and one quarter with France. It may be a bit complicated but with some adjustments in scheduling tournaments it can happen. He also might play with both France and Belgium, for example, if they meet. Only offensive possessions, so he could not even be pissed off by defense.

Storžievis
07-21-2015, 04:31 AM
Make it 4 years if you wish.


As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

You basically argue that the only reason he becomes a good player is that he never had to play in Lithuania. Well if that is true, then that is exactly why he shouln't be playing for Lithuania: there is no reason why Lithuania should be allowed to take advantage of the quality of Spain's youth system.

We see that a lot in the football, where some African teams are full of French players and unfairly take advantage of France's youth system. That's not what national teams are supposed to be about.

Let me point you to Kleiza and Kaukėnas cases who took advantage of USA youth system but played for Lithuania. Kleiza moved to USA at 16 years old, never lived in Lithuania, never played in Lithuania just was born in there.

Kaukėnas moved 15 years old, played in Lithuania only after debut in 2001 Eurobasket. Are those players not elegible because they did not grow up at Lithuania and did not play in Lithuania system and according to you not Lithuanian players?

Besides, Sabonis took advantage of Spanish and Lithuania youth system, and he chooses Lithuania because of identity. I do not see what problem you have with that. I can see that he takes advantage of Lithuania system and leave to play for Spain. Same problem, is it not?

ThePeraCar
07-21-2015, 04:34 AM
Emir Preldžić is born and raised in Bosnia, when he was 16 years old he moved in Slovenia and played for their youth national teams, later he moved in Turkey and played for their national team.

Is this even legal, Fiba have different rules when it's about Turkey:rolleyes:

i wouldnt care honestly ,he sux xD

Dirtyh
07-21-2015, 06:20 AM
As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

I don't know about you but players that I know personally have taken dramatically step forward after participating youth NT camps. And do you really think that his father has nothing to do with his game? I think lot of Lithuanian on him as a player. And I guess there's reasons why he plays for Lithuania and not for Spain.

Shawshank
07-21-2015, 06:58 AM
Make it 4 years if you wish.


As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

You basically argue that the only reason he becomes a good player is that he never had to play in Lithuania. Well if that is true, then that is exactly why he shouln't be playing for Lithuania: there is no reason why Lithuania should be allowed to take advantage of the quality of Spain's youth system.

We see that a lot in the football, where some African teams are full of French players and unfairly take advantage of France's youth system. That's not what national teams are supposed to be about.

Listen you are going to far with sabonis kid as naturalized.First of all Arvydas Sabonis was the biggest impact to what Domantas Sabonis is today.Domantas has nothing in him what is lithuanian are seriuos ? So Sabonis is too not lithuanian player? he become player who he is playing outside Lithuania in 1989-2003 years.SO all players that are playing ball in other countries and other clubs shouldnt be allowed to play for their national team,because they take advantage of those countries basketball system right ? :) so basically to go with your logic only 15-20% should be allowed to play for national team from national championships only those one ! all those that are doing career in different countries should not be allowed to play,because they become better player playing outside their country in other systems ! give me a break,naturalisation problem is not here.Problem is when you take players that has nothing to do with your country,he dont know a single word in those country language and so on , playing just for money.THIS IS THE PROBLEM

boz74
07-21-2015, 08:11 AM
Let me point you to Kleiza and Kaukėnas cases who took advantage of USA youth system but played for Lithuania. Kleiza moved to USA at 16 years old, never lived in Lithuania, never played in Lithuania just was born in there.
Never lived in Lithuania, really? Where did he live until age 16, then?


Are those players not elegible because they did not grow up at Lithuania and did not play in Lithuania system
I'm pretty sure they did grow up in Lithuania and did play in the Lithuanian basketball system (not to mention that they do not hold any other citizenship).

It appears you're trying to advance your argument by making stuff up.


Besides, Sabonis took advantage of Spanish and Lithuania youth system, and he chooses Lithuania because of identity. I do not see what problem you have with that. I can see that he takes advantage of Lithuania system and leave to play for Spain. Same problem, is it not?
How did he take advantage of the Lithuanian youth system if he never played there? If you mean youth teams, he shouldn't have been allowed there either.



SO all players that are playing ball in other countries and other clubs shouldnt be allowed to play for their national team,because they take advantage of those countries basketball system right ? :)
If they have not played two seasons in the country they wish to represent, then no, they shouldn't be allowed. Contrary to what you are implying, that is obviously only a tiny minority of all the players that are currently playing abroad.

Shawshank
07-21-2015, 08:42 AM
Never lived in Lithuania, really? Where did he live until age 16, then?


I'm pretty sure they did grow up in Lithuania and did play in the Lithuanian basketball system (not to mention that they do not hold any other citizenship).

It appears you're trying to advance your argument by making stuff up.


How did he take advantage of the Lithuanian youth system if he never played there? If you mean youth teams, he shouldn't have been allowed there either.



If they have not played two seasons in the country they wish to represent, then no, they shouldn't be allowed. Contrary to what you are implying, that is obviously only a tiny minority of all the players that are currently playing abroad.

why 2 seasons ? not 7 or 9 seasons? its boz74 rule or what? :) There are so manny example that player not become what he is until he went play abroad.Biggest part of nba long time european players become stars in europe after playing in american system.Im againts european nba players playing in eurobasket,they become way better after returning from american system .Their national team and their system have nothing to do with progress their player made in usa. He should be allowed to play only for usa.Right thats your logic?

IF lithuanian parents kid born not in Lithuania,it doesnt mean HE IS NOT LITHUANIAN,even our democratical laws is saying that ! You are coming here and saying that kid that want to represent and feel himself Lithuanian like Domantas has no right to play for Lithuania, all of his relatives country, because he was born in spain/usa? :) Dont worry we dont pay him money,he is doing that because HE IS LITHUANIAN !

Your logic and rules you want to make up is messed up.Sabonis is Lithuanian basketball federation president and our best player of all time and his son will play for Spain :)) btw spaniards tried and offered Domantas to play fro Spain.He said im lithuanian ,i cant play for you :) If Domantas played for spain THAT WOULD BE Naturalisation PROBLEM,not when lithuanian want to play for Lithuania.Get your fact right men.

boz74
07-21-2015, 09:20 AM
why 2 seasons ? not 7 or 9 seasons? its boz74 rule or what? :)
Feel free to make it 7 or 9 if you wish. It's a rule that is used by the IIHF, a reputable sports governing body.



Im againts european nba players playing in eurobasket,they become way better after returning from american system .Their national team and their system have nothing to do with progress their player made in usa. He should be allowed to play only for usa.Right thats your logic?
You are entitled to your opinion that NBA players should not be playing in Eurobasket, but that is not my logic at all.

I suggest you stop putting words in my mouth and read my posts with a little more attention.


IF lithuanian parents kid born not in Lithuania,it doesnt mean HE IS NOT LITHUANIAN,even our democratical laws is saying that !
I have said nothing of the sort. Please stop putting word in my mouth and making stuff up.

In addition, you might want to realise that Macedonia's democratic laws made McCalebb a Macedonian, yet a lot of people (maybe including you?) have a problem with him playing for that country's national team. So it seems largely accepted that merely being a citizen of a country shouldn't be enough to make someone eligible for the NT.


You are coming here and saying that kid that want to represent and feel himself Lithuanian like Domantas has no right to play for Lithuania, all of his relatives country, because he was born in spain/usa? :)
Not at all, I'm saying he shouldn't be allowed to play for Lithuania because he has not played two seasons in Lithuania while he did play two seasons in another country of which he is also a citizen.


Your logic and rules you want to make up is messed up. Sabonis is Lithuanian basketball federation president and our best player of all time and his son will play for Spain :))
The sons of Slovakia's best hockey player of all times, former national team head coach and member of parliament, play for the USA, and are not allowed to play for Slovakia. There's nothing messed up about it.


If Domantas played for spain THAT WOULD BE Naturalisation PROBLEM
I'd like you to explain how it would be a "problem" that a Spanish guy who played in Spain for years would also play for the Spanish NT. That seems "messed up" to see something as natural as that as a "problem". Is it also a naturalisation "problem" to you that Tony Parker plays for France or Adetokoumbo for Greece?

usagre
07-21-2015, 05:35 PM
I don't understand what the correlation is between a national league and a national team. A player can and should play in any league in the world that offers him the most money. In essence it is just an occupation. I don't see how that impacts his nationality and his roots. One has nothing to do with the other.

Baloo
07-21-2015, 07:59 PM
I can't even comprehend idea that you guys are talking/questioning Sabonis Jr. playing for Lithuanian national team. Just because he is born outside of Lithuania doesn't make him less Lithuanian. Same with American born Greek roots players. Orf course they should have a right to play for the country of their ancestors.

Dirtyh
07-21-2015, 08:02 PM
I don't understand what the correlation is between a national league and a national team. A player can and should play in any league in the world that offers him the most money. In essence it is just an occupation. I don't see how that impacts his nationality and his roots. One has nothing to do with the other.

BTW, are you American-Greek? I have wondered how those people really feels what is their home land? I agree that it is hard task for me if someone was saying that he's a Finn even if he's never live in here and can't speak our language. Problem would be minor if countries would have better laws. No we need better rules for basketball.

boz74
07-21-2015, 09:03 PM
I can't even comprehend idea that you guys are talking/questioning Sabonis Jr. playing for Lithuanian national team. Just because he is born outside of Lithuania doesn't make him less Lithuanian. Same with American born Greek roots players. Orf course they should have a right to play for the country of their ancestors.
Being born outside of Macedonia does not make McCalebb any less Macedonian either. Yet very much the same people who find it natural for Sabonis to play for Lithuania object to the presence of one player like McCalebb, let alone several, in Macedonia's national team.

So there is obviously something else that makes players' eligibility "legit", besides a mere citizenship, whether it be Lithuanian or Macedonian. That is reflected in FIBA rules, which already discriminate between citizens of the same country.

The debate here is, do the current rules discriminate too much, or not enough, or not in a correct way, etc. It's unfortunate that you fail to see that the current status quo is merely one option amongst plenty of others, none of them any less legitimate in and of itself than the others.

boz74
07-21-2015, 09:10 PM
I agree that it is hard task for me if someone was saying that he's a Finn even if he's never live in here and can't speak our language.
Even if he speaks the language I find it very difficult to consider him a fellow countryman. If he wanted to play in my country's national team I would tell him to sod off.

Baloo
07-21-2015, 09:42 PM
Being born outside of Macedonia does not make McCalebb any less Macedonian either. Yet very much the same people who find it natural for Sabonis to play for Lithuania object to the presence of one player like McCalebb, let alone several, in Macedonia's national team.

So there is obviously something else that makes players' eligibility "legit", besides a mere citizenship, whether it be Lithuanian or Macedonian. That is reflected in FIBA rules, which already discriminate between citizens of the same country.

The debate here is, do the current rules discriminate too much, or not enough, or not in a correct way, etc. It's unfortunate that you fail to see that the current status quo is merely one option amongst plenty of others, none of them any less legitimate in and of itself than the others.

Of course it does. McCalleb is basically bought and paid to play for a country that he doesn't give a fu..k about. Sabonis is Lithuanian from head to to the toe.

boz74
07-21-2015, 09:54 PM
That is merely your opinion that McCalebb is any less Macedonian than his teammates. Saying Koufos is less Greek than his teammates is an equally valid opinion. Your opinion is probably more popular here, but that obviously does not make it more correct, and neither does saying "of course" all the time.

Jon_Koncak
07-21-2015, 09:57 PM
I can't even comprehend idea that you guys are talking/questioning Sabonis Jr. playing for Lithuanian national team. Just because he is born outside of Lithuania doesn't make him less Lithuanian. Same with American born Greek roots players. Orf course they should have a right to play for the country of their ancestors.

So every American proffesional basketball player except the Indian ones should have a right to play for another country,right?What about Ginobili,should he play for Italy too?What about Australians?Should most of them play for Great Britain?

Baloo
07-21-2015, 10:09 PM
So every American proffesional basketball player except the Indian ones should have a right to play for another country,right?What about Ginobili,should he play for Italy too?What about Australians?Should most of them play for Great Britain?

Of course same as most of us will have a chance to play for Neanderthal National Team if we want to. Ridiculing this idea make only you laughable, as u can't compare 5th or 6th generations Australians with Koufos whose parents moved to the USA.

Jon_Koncak
07-21-2015, 10:15 PM
So where do we draw the line?3rd generation,4th?14th?Calathes parents werent born in Greece,neither Dorsey's or Bramo's.

Baloo
07-21-2015, 10:33 PM
Line is where you decide to draw the line. If your parents, grandparents are Greeks so can you be.
McCalleb have nothing to do with Macedonia, neither he ever play there. have no ancestors from there etc.

vaslover
07-22-2015, 12:15 AM
To stubborn BOZ 74
GREAT Johan Cruyff( the same as GREAT Arvydas Sabonis) played one day in Barcelona 1973-1978..... In 9 february 1974 was born his son Jordi Cruyff.... Yes, in Amsterdam, so the law is on your side.:D But...but....but still..... Almost all his childhood he spent in Catalonia. When he was 14 he played for Barca Under14 team and he played for them until 1996. But the most curious thing was for whom he should play for Netherlands or Spain?;) He was 100% LA MASIA Academy boy but eventually he chose Netherlands NT! Are you suprised once again?;) But for normal people it,s ok. Because when your father Johan Cruyff/Arvydas Sabonis definitely( at least for me) that eventually you,ll choose Netherland/Lithuania..... This,s 100% METAPHYSICS, IIHF rules( who cares ice-hockey rules in our site?!) doesn,t work in this case..... It,s so amazing to represent Netherland in football and Lithuania in basketball respectively, especially when your father Cruyff and Sabonis......

mchale
07-22-2015, 04:21 AM
So every American proffesional basketball player except the Indian ones should have a right to play for another country,right?What about Ginobili,should he play for Italy too?What about Australians?Should most of them play for Great Britain?

That's stupid,sorry.Very few teams have abused(I don't know any) the law and used 5th or 6th generation immigrants in their NT's.You are afraid of a a phenomenon that has never been observed thus far.
The FIBA rules are fine no reason to change them.

Victorious
07-22-2015, 09:48 AM
So where do we draw the line?3rd generation,4th?14th?Calathes parents werent born in Greece,neither Dorsey's or Bramo's.

If people like Koufos maintain their Greek heritage, as he did by marrying a Greek American woman, then it could go on indefinitely. It takes an effort to maintain your heritage.

Baloo
07-22-2015, 02:51 PM
@ Victorious you are absolutely correct.

I am neither Lithuanian or fan of their NT but I would be upset if Sabonis Jr. will play for Spain or anyone else. Just because his dad was professional player outside of Lithuania doesn't mean his child can't play for Lithuania. If you have a heritage and that is where your heart os of course you should be aloud to play for that country.
If your National organization is shopping for American player to play for your NTeven though he has a zero connection with your country that is disgrace.

boz74
07-22-2015, 03:17 PM
I am neither Lithuanian or fan of their NT but I would be upset if Sabonis Jr. will play for Spain or anyone else.
So I take it you are also "upset" that Tony Parker plays for France or Adetokoumbo for Greece? After all, they don't have the supposedly all-important "heritage" from these countries either.

Steadysoul
07-22-2015, 07:28 PM
Reading this thread makes me brain hurt. I didn't know this was such a big deal.

Srle
07-22-2015, 07:37 PM
Boz74 come across like someone who is butt hurt. Maybe he's Spanish and want Sabonis Jr to play for Spain so badly ;) Sabonis Jr is Lithuanian end of discussion , find some other example , like Dorsey of Greece , he doesn't even speak Greek language:eek:

serbianhoops
07-22-2015, 07:58 PM
In my opinion, it's just a matter of time before a naturalized player follows Jean-Marc Bosman's exemple and asks the European Court of Justice to rule on FIBA's one naturalized player per team rule, and then I won't be surprised if 12 naturalized players per national team will be permitted.

usagre
07-22-2015, 08:11 PM
In my opinion, it's just a matter of time before a naturalized player follows Jean-Marc Bosman's exemple and asks the European Court of Justice to rule on FIBA's one naturalized player per team rule, and then I won't be surprised if 12 naturalized players per national team will be permitted.

I agree. I don't understand the thinking behind the limitation of one. You are either eligible to play for the national team or you are not. By limiting it to one player fiba is admitting that something is inherently wrong with that players eligibility.

serbianhoops
07-22-2015, 08:16 PM
European Court of Justice judge will without doubt revoke the current FIBA regulation on naturalized players as a discriminatory rule if they have to make a decision about it.

Srle
07-22-2015, 08:54 PM
Idiots:mad:

Srle
07-22-2015, 09:49 PM
No one is talking about two naturalized Spanish big men who played at u20 championship this year . Is this even a legal thing , to have two or more naturalized players playing for the national team or did Spanish Federation just bend the rules or did Fiba just rewrite their own rules so they can suit the needs of those most rich and powerful basketball federations :confused:

Baloo
07-23-2015, 04:39 AM
So I take it you are also "upset" that Tony Parker plays for France or Adetokoumbo for Greece? After all, they don't have the supposedly all-important "heritage" from these countries either.

So why are you trolling topic? Antentoukonpo is born in Athens and lived there. Has all rights to play for Greece. If he choose Nigeria that would be OK too.

Svoura
07-23-2015, 08:34 AM
By the way, none of the Antetokounmpo brothers has ever set foot in Nigeria, and they don't even have passports, although both parents are Nigerian. Until 2013, they had no passports from ANY country in th world. The whole family was living in Athens as illegal immigrants. See how complicated it all is?

Levenspiel
07-23-2015, 10:16 AM
By the way, none of the Antetokounmpo brothers has ever set foot in Nigeria, and they don't even have passports, although both parents are Nigerian. Until 2013, they had no passports from ANY country in th world. The whole family was living in Athens as illegal immigrants. See how complicated it all is?
And suddenly, by coincidence, the whole family becomes beloved Greek citizens :).
The same thing everywhere, at different levels. Just like Turkish kids suddenly becoming real Germans once they start kicking the ball a little bit better, Algerians becoming real French etc. the same way.

Jon_Koncak
07-23-2015, 12:49 PM
In my opinion, it's just a matter of time before a naturalized player follows Jean-Marc Bosman's exemple and asks the European Court of Justice to rule on FIBA's one naturalized player per team rule, and then I won't be surprised if 12 naturalized players per national team will be permitted.

1 naturalised per country is some sort of gentlement's agreement among FIBA members.That's what i've always thought,just like the restrictions on non native players in EU basketball leagues.These kind of restrictions hold no legal basis.It goes without saying that if someone goes to courts about it FIBA is screwed and they could field as many naturalised as they'd like.But noone has done it YET.

Victorious
07-23-2015, 02:10 PM
And suddenly, by coincidence, the whole family becomes beloved Greek citizens :).
The same thing everywhere, at different levels. Just like Turkish kids suddenly becoming real Germans once they start kicking the ball a little bit better, Algerians becoming real French etc. the same way.

As convenient as it is, these kids are born and raised in those countries and it only makes sense that they should have the opportunity to represent those countries if that is what they desire.

But yes, ironically, like athletes, singers, actors etc. these kids are second class citizens and all of the sudden become national VIP's. It is the effect of our primate tribal instinct.

Baloo
07-23-2015, 03:11 PM
And suddenly, by coincidence, the whole family becomes beloved Greek citizens :).
The same thing everywhere, at different levels. Just like Turkish kids suddenly becoming real Germans once they start kicking the ball a little bit better, Algerians becoming real French etc. the same way.

That actually talks more about nationalism of European states. Something like American rednecks all the way. Dude born there and have no passport. Shame on them.

vaslover
07-27-2015, 10:55 AM
So, as i said above ( 07.19.2015 ), eventually Gavel would represent German NT in eurobasket.....Fuc..k, what is going on with Fiba Europe? Are they an idiots there or what?!....It,s fuc..ing DANGEROUS PRECEDENT actually..... Ok, when Evtimov or Kuqo have represented two different NTs i can accept it ( but if say truth, for me it,s abnormal situation as well),at least eventually they both have represented their NATIVE COUNTRY, but what the point was to give permission to the player who played for Slovak NT in FIBA EUROBASKET 2007, 2009,2011 division B and also he played for Slovak at the Eurobasket 2013 qualification tournament???! And after that he can represent German NT?!....Hmmmm....Maybe it,s time for us to give passport to Teodosic.....Why not actually, he,s like a 100% russian now....;) We have enough money to give passport to any players in the world..... Guys, do you like this shit? I don,t like actually..... This abnormal decision by Fiba europe makes me sad. There are no words. Really.....:mad:

Efesdxb
07-27-2015, 11:55 AM
It is ridiculous.
FIBA Europe is joke. Unfortunately run by a Turkish. Shame on Demirel and all previous presidents...

Straight forward
07-27-2015, 12:18 PM
To be honest, I only wish to beat teams who use naturalized players even more. It's not like national team members don't talk about it. I'm pretty sure players feel exactly the same and say Teodosic' words that he wouldn't come to the NT if Serbia would naturalise anyone just confirm that. At least it will work as extra motivation for those national teams who has it's national values and most importantly the principles of fair competition.

mojo13
07-31-2015, 11:24 PM
I thought this was pretty interesting - in the qualifiers leading up to the 2014 World Cup, 66 US born players played for 37 different countries (other than the US).
http://hoopshype.com/2013/09/04/plenty-of-americans-in-fiba-tournaments/
It is pretty ridiculous and only going to get worse.

I understand the one naturalized player rule - I don't like it, but at least it is clear. And I understand if your parents are born in another country, it is not so bad to think of yourself playing for that country (still it is a stretch). But I think it gets unethical trying to utilize "ethnic ties" through grandparents and great grandparents. Then it starts getting silly and it is quite obvious both the country and the player are trying to stretch the rules.

Darknemo2000
08-01-2015, 06:38 AM
The Greek Federation has taken a stand against naturalisations for years, although we could have used a big man such as Mike Batiste, who lived in the country for about 10 years and had every right to citizenship. They say that such a move would be bad for team chemistry, and unfair to the young Greek guys who aspire to play for the NT. That said, we have no problem with using Greek-Americans who do not even speak the language, such as Koufos and Calathes. And now we have Giannis Antetokounmpo, who is the son of an imiigrant family, but was born and raised and lived his whole life in Greece. It's a complicated situation, and there are no "rights" or "wrongs". I can certainly tell you that everyone here was very sarcastic and bitter when we lost to a FYROM team led by an American who barely knew where Skopje was back in 2009. But we laughed our heads off with JR Holden's winner for Russia two years earlier. At least Holden used to live and work in Moscow for years.

I wouldnt have minded Batiste for Greece. After all at least he played a number of years. But now we have some teams shopping for one legionaire who never even played in their country just before the championship and then player has like 0 connection with the country. Such bullshit has to stop.

Joško Poljak Fan
08-01-2015, 09:54 AM
Okay, but than again would it made all the difference in the world if the guy lived there for 2 or 3 years? Why is that exactly?
Don't you also think such rule is somewhat missing the basic purpouse for which Fiba keeps naturalisations going? As those can spark the popularity of bball in a bit less developed bball countries and it did so within the past decade, some of those really can use a naturalisation to be slightly more competitive and now with such rule you're basicaly saying that the NT's with strong league and teams paying big bucks to the players are the ones that are meant to benefit from the whole naturalisation thing... in that case, abolish the naturalisations altogether. As I keep saying these weren't created to make the strong stronger, yet that's exactly what they'll eventualy be turned into.

Darknemo2000
08-01-2015, 01:28 PM
Okay, but than again would it made all the difference in the world if the guy lived there for 2 or 3 years? Why is that exactly?
Don't you also think such rule is somewhat missing the basic purpouse for which Fiba keeps naturalisations going? As those can spark the popularity of bball in a bit less developed bball countries and it did so within the past decade, some of those really can use a naturalisation to be slightly more competitive and now with such rule you're basicaly saying that the NT's with strong league and teams paying big bucks to the players are the ones that are meant to benefit from the whole naturalisation thing... in that case, abolish the naturalisations altogether. As I keep saying these weren't created to make the strong stronger, yet that's exactly what they'll eventualy be turned into.

I view it that way that if I player played long time in that country he did take in part of the culture and then I can understand if he becomes an NT member. I do think that amoun of years player has to spend in that country should be at least 5 though.

Joško Poljak Fan
08-01-2015, 02:01 PM
In that case we should just completely abolish naturalisations as that rule will help only the already strong teams, due to having a strong league, while 1 naturalised player per team was meant as a push in quality, competitiveness, popularity for f.e. Macedonia, Georgia etc. that might only be missing one player and double their chances for some decent result at the same time, help promoting the bball and it's popularity accordingly. One naturalised player seems a small price for that. That logic loses it's sense and naturalisations should than be completely abolished as there isn't many chances some Georgian team might hold on to some US point guard that might actualy proove usefull for their NT, for 5 consecutive years, most of already good teams from countries with the best leagues will, further increasing the gap, while actualy naturalisations were primary meant as a tool to decrease that!
Than again countries with some superb youth schools might profit from it as well if they kept their foreign youngsters for a few years, but needless to say you won't see any top German prospects deciding to switch to play for Danemark, while with the Danish uncompetitive bball NT, it just might be the other way around... completely different direction than it should be, instead of helping the bball poorer country, the talent concentrating in the major ones instead.

This rant isn't pointed at you specificaly, Darknemo2000 :) just while getting over this thread, i realised people obviously forgot why naturalisations were agreed upon in the first place. It had it's logic which shouldn't be disregarded.

Picek
08-08-2015, 04:17 PM
not sure if he was mentioned here but Blake Schilb could become a czech and play already at the EC.
if he will get the passport on time.
his wife is a czech and he played for Nymburk earlier..

Dauf
08-08-2015, 07:05 PM
And suddenly, by coincidence, the whole family becomes beloved Greek citizens :).
The same thing everywhere, at different levels. Just like Turkish kids suddenly becoming real Germans once they start kicking the ball a little bit better, Algerians becoming real French etc. the same way.

There are no algerians in the french team and all children borned on the french ground can claim the nationality with or without a ball. Let us outside of your nationality's supermarket. In fact, it's even quite the opposite lot of french borned, grown and trained in France use the nationality of their parents to play for other national team when they can't reach the french team. Algerian's football team is mostly french not the opposite. (16/23 last worldcup)

ppp
08-11-2015, 10:44 AM
To be honest, I only wish to beat teams who use naturalized players even more. It's not like national team members don't talk about it. I'm pretty sure players feel exactly the same and say Teodosic' words that he wouldn't come to the NT if Serbia would naturalise anyone just confirm that. At least it will work as extra motivation for those national teams who has it's national values and most importantly the principles of fair competition.

I totally agree! It's better to be the last without naturalized players, than 1st with them for me.

Upi
08-19-2015, 06:26 PM
In my opinion, it's just a matter of time before a naturalized player follows Jean-Marc Bosman's exemple and asks the European Court of Justice to rule on FIBA's one naturalized player per team rule, and then I won't be surprised if 12 naturalized players per national team will be permitted.

I don't see any relevance with the Bosman ruling here. It should only pretty much apply to professional leagues and national teams do not (or shouldn't at least, although I'm pretty sure e.g. Andray Blatche doesn't agree) really have anything to do with free movement of labour.

madmax
08-29-2015, 10:06 PM
unforced turnovers...the never cured cancer of the lithuanian basketball:rolleyes:
Why don't we just swallow our pride and adopt our own JR Holden or Bo Mccaleeb to contend for Gold as opposed to be fighting for the bronze medal?:confused: Times are changing and even greeks have their own athletic basketball god in Antetokoumpo, not to mention Baby Shaq Sofoklis as well. Let's stop playing the patriotic card and get on with times like the rest of the former white Europe has done...

Jon_Koncak
08-29-2015, 10:25 PM
unforced turnovers...the never cured cancer of the lithuanian basketball:rolleyes:
Why don't we just swallow our pride and adopt our own JR Holden or Bo Mccaleeb to contend for Gold as opposed to be fighting for the bronze medal?:confused: Times are changing and even greeks have their own athletic basketball god in Antetokoumpo, not to mention Baby Shaq Sofoklis as well. Let's stop playing the patriotic card and get on with times like the rest of the former white Europe has done...

Finally a sensibly post from you,Naturalising a good amarican pg is no less shameful than playing with the various Gustas,Juskevicius,Lekavicious and other god damn awful eurochallenge level pgs.

usagre
08-29-2015, 10:27 PM
unforced turnovers...the never cured cancer of the lithuanian basketball:rolleyes:
Why don't we just swallow our pride and adopt our own JR Holden or Bo Mccaleeb to contend for Gold as opposed to be fighting for the bronze medal?:confused: Times are changing and even greeks have their own athletic basketball god in Antetokoumpo, not to mention Baby Shaq Sofoklis as well. Let's stop playing the patriotic card and get on with times like the rest of the former white Europe has done...


I don't see it. Especially after the sad affair that took place with Zydrunas Ilgauskas and his citizenship.

omgsomuchpotential
08-29-2015, 10:38 PM
I'd rather just play with our own talent. Naturalising guys like McCalebb, Draper, Lafayette etc. is just a cheap shortcut and it wouldn't even interest me following such a team. I'd rather us lose than win with an American/whatever player, who is playing for us just to earn some extra $$$. I guess the young fans like the idea of naturalising a foreigner because this is what they are used to already, but not me.

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against guys like Luol Deng, Mirotic or Ibaka, who actually lived in those countries and matured there as players, but Bo McCalebb? Come on, now.

Straight forward
08-29-2015, 10:50 PM
Finally a sensibly post from you,Naturalising a good amarican pg is no less shameful than playing with the various Gustas,Juskevicius,Lekavicious and other god damn awful eurochallenge level pgs.

And that crappy awful team with eurochallenge level PGs schools all the teams which naturalising American PGs pretty much about every fucking tournament and It surely running to sell it's ass for the best price as soon as possible :D

aenaon
08-29-2015, 11:42 PM
unforced turnovers...the never cured cancer of the lithuanian basketball:rolleyes:
Why don't we just swallow our pride and adopt our own JR Holden or Bo Mccaleeb to contend for Gold as opposed to be fighting for the bronze medal?:confused: Times are changing and even greeks have their own athletic basketball god in Antetokoumpo, not to mention Baby Shaq Sofoklis as well. Let's stop playing the patriotic card and get on with times like the rest of the former white Europe has done...

I get your point, but what you say is not true really. The only thing shared between Mccaleeb, Holden, Antetokounmpo and Sofo, is that they are all black.

Sofo was born in Cameroon by a Greek dad working there at the time, and a Cameroonian mom. His dad traveled a lot, he grew up in several Greek cities, he is Greek, a black Greek, but Greek nevertheless. Antetokounmpo's parents came to Greece under the umbrella of the orthodox church of Nigeria seeking a not so bad future, and Giannis was born in Athens by parents living in the Country without legal papers. He was officially neither Greek not Nigerian citizen while growining up, he was a ghost. A lot of people live like that in Greece, we don't have the means or legal system to accept them, but we can not ignore them either, they are as real as the rest of us. Him getting the Greek citizen card for being a good basketball player may be unfair, when comparing him with so many people who feel Greek but are not officially, but at the same time saying to someone who was born and raised in Greece that he is not Greek makes no sense, in Greece we say that Greek is he who Greek thinks anyway.

Only Calathes and Bramos could be called Naturalizing, in the sense that although legally the boys are Greeks-Americans, they were not that involved with Greece before the federation spotted them.

Anyway, the times that a Greek was almost certainly a white, are gone. We may be changing color, but we don't swallow our pride, so you should not use us if you want to swallow yours :)

Shawshank
08-30-2015, 06:07 AM
First of all biggest part of lithuanians fans are against it,our federations are against this idea...Secondly even if our basketball federation would have decide to do that,our laws are so strict that our countrys president wouldnt give that citizenship anyway .In the near future it wont happen.We gonna play our own boys not nigerians,americans...And when we are winning medal once in every Olympic circle it is won by lithuanian boys and its couple times more sweeter one!

Victorious
08-30-2015, 06:47 AM
First of all biggest part of lithuanians fans are against it,our federations are against this idea...Secondly even if our basketball federation would have decide to do that,our laws are so strict that our countrys president wouldnt give that citizenship anyway .In the near future it wont happen.We gonna play our own boys not nigerians,americans...And when we are winning medal once in every Olympic circle it is won by lithuanian boys and its couple times more sweeter one!

No worries. The EU is about to change immigration laws. Some countries can not handle the flow of immigration so new arrivals will be split among EU nation states equally. So, in a generation or so, you will have black born Lithuanians. And no, I doubt your President would stop them from participating in the NT. How hilarious would that be? A president not allowing a Lithuanian born to play for the NT because he is born black. I can see the headlines.

Lukas2K
08-30-2015, 07:11 AM
No worries. The EU is about to change immigration laws. Some countries can not handle the flow of immigration so new arrivals will be split among EU nation states equally. So, in a generation or so, you will have black born Lithuanians. And no, I doubt your President would stop them from participating in the NT. How hilarious would that be? A president not allowing a Lithuanian born to play for the NT because he is born black. I can see the headlines.

Racism is a real problem here in Lithuania .

Mindozas
08-30-2015, 08:56 AM
No worries. The EU is about to change immigration laws. Some countries can not handle the flow of immigration so new arrivals will be split among EU nation states equally. So, in a generation or so, you will have black born Lithuanians. And no, I doubt your President would stop them from participating in the NT. How hilarious would that be? A president not allowing a Lithuanian born to play for the NT because he is born black. I can see the headlines.

What it has to do with skin colour? Majority of Liths doesn't want naturalized player in our NT, not cause of one is black, asian or etc. F.e. NT for me is nr1 team, way infront of any club, but I would stop cheering for it if we would naturalize some player, as overall I take this naturalisation stuff as the one who destroys national teams competitions. We have clubs competitions for foreigners.

Shawshank
08-30-2015, 09:07 AM
No worries. The EU is about to change immigration laws. Some countries can not handle the flow of immigration so new arrivals will be split among EU nation states equally. So, in a generation or so, you will have black born Lithuanians. And no, I doubt your President would stop them from participating in the NT. How hilarious would that be? A president not allowing a Lithuanian born to play for the NT because he is born black. I can see the headlines.

what black or white have something do with this? If any person is born in Lithuania and stays there,grows up he is lithuanian by born.He will not need to get anything from president.Im not talking about sofoklis case,im talking about holdens,mclabebs, rice,draper cases..Let say we had brothers lavrinovich,they parents are polish,but their born in vilnius and grow up here and got citizenship from birth when they didnt even know how to play basketball..Basically such naturalization like Gianis or Ibaka maybe should be allowed to some degree ,but those bullshit cases when just very good player is getting money for playing for national and he has nothing to do with that country.SUCH CASES SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED AT ALL.Thats my look.Any federation that is paying for player to play for their national team,should be banned.National teams tournaments is for represending your country,not for earning money ! Today we allow one naturalisated player, in 2040 it will be 3-4 players? than it will comes to that you can buy entire team to represent your country.

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 10:06 AM
I do not care much about bloodlines, etc. Personaly I see no deference between Maccaleb and Calathes, the only thing that matters is if your an Product of the domestic basketball and Calathes hardly spoke any Greek few years ago hance beeing a Product of Greek basketball.

adamosmaki
08-30-2015, 10:16 AM
I do not care much about bloodlines, etc. Personaly I see no deference between Maccaleb and Calathes, the only thing that matters is if your an Product of the domestic basketball and Calathes hardly spoke any Greek few years ago hance beeing a Product of Greek basketball.

Come on . No difference between them? One is descendant of Greeks. Sure he was born and raised in US but it does have some affiliation with Greece ( plus he spent a few years with PAO in Greece) while the other has no relation what so ever with your country. No parents or grandparents born there or anything. I can understand naturalizing a player that spend some years in a country playing basketball there and feeling connected with said country but i dont get how someone can play for a country he never lived there or have any relation with

Dirtyh
08-30-2015, 10:18 AM
BTW, what you think if some player lives 10 years in Lithuania and gets citizenship. Is it ok that he plays for NT? I'm just curious because I don't know what think about ourr Wilson's case. I have absolutely nothing against him as person and he had to achieve his place in our NT, he don't get payed for it but still..

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 10:33 AM
Come on . No difference between them? One is descendant of Greeks. Sure he was born and raised in US but it does have some affiliation with Greece ( plus he spent a few years with PAO in Greece) while the other has no relation what so ever with your country. No parents or grandparents born there or anything. I can understand naturalizing a player that spend some years in a country playing basketball there and feeling connected with said country but i dont get how someone can play for a country he never lived there or have any relation with

I understand you but thats the technical part (Bloodlines) witch should not matter at least in sport. The only importent thing is, is Calathes a Product of Greek basketball school. I just can not see how he could ?. With all respect.

Mindozas
08-30-2015, 11:13 AM
BTW, what you think if some player lives 10 years in Lithuania and gets citizenship. Is it ok that he plays for NT? I'm just curious because I don't know what think about ourr Wilson's case. I have absolutely nothing against him as person and he had to achieve his place in our NT, he don't get payed for it but still..

I wouldn't approve that. For me there're two ways to be involved with NT not bein' Lithuanian born in LT by LT parents:

1) born and raised here;
2) born outside country, but having LT parent(-s) (grandparents doesn't count);

But that's just mine point of view, this issue is so wide and can have so many different views on it, that we could discuss it for a long time and wouldn't come to agreement

Straight forward
08-30-2015, 11:37 AM
For complete old-school guys like Garastas and I wouldn't be surprised many other old timers from basketball community, it does matter the skin of the colour. Those guys wouldn't want "negro" in the team (just as many Lith people to be honest), maybe could live with some foreign white one under some circumstances, but black guy would have much lower chances to make and that's pretty much a fact now and for some more time at least I would say (let's not be naive here). Racism is real thing just as many other problems in the society - like disrespect in the JOB (hierarchy, authority), sexism. I just wouldn't be that sensitive about it. We have to learn to live in the world which is inseparable from such problems. I mean the reality is - forums would be drowning with racist comments if Lithuania would select a black. Just as it was in Croatia I'm pretty sure. And in Lithuania it is even much more less likely that to happen because our government is strict about these things.

Victorious
08-30-2015, 12:06 PM
1) born and raised here;
2) born outside country, but having LT parent(-s) (grandparents doesn't count);


Parents or grandparents. Were do you put the line? I guess it's subjective and cultural. For archetypal diaspora people like say, Greeks, Jews or Armenians etc. disinheriting second or third (or whatever) generations of their diaspora would be considered blasphemy. They integrate nicely to new environments, yet retain certain values and connections to their countries of origin.

Look at the irony, in this forum there's Lithuanians who are trying to convince Greeks from Germany, Netherlands, USA, France that Greeks who were born outside Greece should not be eligible to play for Greece. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that it's not going to stick.

Mindozas
08-30-2015, 12:08 PM
For complete old-school guys like Garastas and I wouldn't be surprised many other old timers from basketball community, it does matter the skin of the colour. Those guys wouldn't want "negro" in the team

Why should we care about those old-schoolers, they has nothing to do with our bball anymore, they were raised in Soviet community and for the first time saw other race people probably when were almost pensioneers. All should we care about is LKF (bball federation). I have my relative working there and with NT for quite a long time now. He is not "old-school" guy and we've talked about these issues, so there's no difference black, white or any colour - all of them just are against it for sports reasons



Parents or grandparents. Were do you put the line? I guess it's subjective and cultural. For archetypal diaspora people like say, Greeks, Jews or Armenians etc. disinheriting second or third (or whatever) generations of their diaspora would be considered blasphemy. They integrate nicely to new environments, yet retain certain values and connections to their countries of origin.

Of course it's subjective, that's why I wrote at the end that it's only mine opinion. My line is parents or one of them must be Liths, the closest blood-line, it would make less mess when the line would be drawn like this


Look at the irony, in this forum there's Lithuanians who are trying to convince Greeks from Germany, Netherlands, USA, France that Greeks who were born outside Greece should not be eligible to play for Greece. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that it's not going to stick.

It's their problem. I guess those Liths has relatives/friends living in Great Britain, Norway, Spain, where Lithuanians emigrates in big numbers, creates families there, raises childrens, or if some of those Liths would do it on his own, how would they react if their son wouldn't be able to represent his country... On a sidenote, kid could choose what to represent - country of his parents or country where he have born, with which he feels more connection

Jon_Koncak
08-30-2015, 12:35 PM
Parents or grandparents. Were do you put the line? I guess it's subjective and cultural. For archetypal diaspora people like say, Greeks, Jews or Armenians etc. disinheriting second or third (or whatever) generations of their diaspora would be considered blasphemy. They integrate nicely to new environments, yet retain certain values and connections to their countries of origin.

Look at the irony, in this forum there's Lithuanians who are trying to convince Greeks from Germany, Netherlands, USA, France that Greeks who were born outside Greece should not be eligible to play for Greece. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that it's not going to stick.

What greek value did Calathes or Dorsey hold?Spelling the word "malaka",or eating gyro?

KWSN-Men
08-30-2015, 01:07 PM
What greek value did Calathes or Dorsey hold?Spelling the word "malaka",or eating gyro?

Being more civilized than bigots in here that call themselves Greek.

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 01:12 PM
What greek value did Calathes or Dorsey hold?Spelling the word "malaka",or eating gyro?

I know a lot about Calathes, when he come to Greece he could not speak greek, saying hello in greek do not mean you can speak greek. But thats not what matteres, what matters is, is a he a product of greek basketball. Haw could he ? since he spend all youth years in youth american basketball.

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 01:31 PM
As to Maccaleb, he playd 5 years for MKD, very rare that American play such long time for anyone + he wos begging to play for Macedonia one more time and most have been a hard and cruel choice to turn down a man who give us so much. But we had no choice since Pero Antic and Georgi Cekovski ended their NT careers the first one way to early and Gecevski cuz he is way to old now.

If just one of Antic or Cekovski turnued up we choose Maccaleb. But now Henrix.

Point is he (Bo)also told, he love to play for us. In such an unique situation is it right or rong that he playd for us ?. He loved the team kemistry on court and out side court. Only bad thing they spend a lot of time in the bars even under EC.

He is great mate with most of the players in private specially Antic.

CoachZ
08-30-2015, 01:53 PM
I have no problems with naturalizing players even without ethnic connection, as long as they have spent 5 years living/working/playing in that country. I don't care at what age or so. As long as there is such a connection. I am sure they will allow more naturalization in the future to make basketball more popular and competitions more balanced. That is a huge threat to the integrity of international competition, so there has to be a connection to the country you will be playing for. Otherwise what is it to stop in the future teams such as Qatar, UAE with limitless budgets to build their own dream teams. Therefore I would accept such things, given that player has spent at least 5 years in the country where he wants to be a part of NT and get a passport.

Victorious
08-30-2015, 02:37 PM
I know a lot about Calathes, when he come to Greece he could not speak greek, saying hello in greek do not mean you can speak greek. But thats not what matteres, what matters is, is a he a product of greek basketball. Haw could he ? since he spend all youth years in youth american basketball.

Nikos Galis is probably less of a product of Greek basketball than Calathes. The idea during the 70s and 80s was to invite Greek Americans to strengthen the national team. Galis obviously had a great success. This process is continuing to this day with players like Koufos and Calathes. Both of them were under the loop by the Greek media since their college years or before that. And Greek TV visited their places and made documentaries about their lives as Greek Americans.


http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20080630/low/assets_LARGE_t_1041_1241769.JPG

Hepcat
08-30-2015, 02:54 PM
unforced turnovers...the never cured cancer of the lithuanian basketball:rolleyes:Why don't we just swallow our pride and adopt our own JR Holden or Bo Mccaleeb to contend for Gold as opposed to be fighting for the bronze medal?:confused: Times are changing and even greeks have their own athletic basketball god in Antetokoumpo, not to mention Baby Shaq Sofoklis as well. Let's stop playing the patriotic card and get on with times like the rest of the former white Europe has done....

Excuse me but international basketball is all about patriotism! I wouldn't be interested otherwise.


Finally a sensibly post from you,Naturalising a good amarican pg is no less shameful than playing with the various Gustas,Juskevicius,Lekavicious and other god damn awful eurochallenge level pgs.

Huh? What's shameful about giving your best and losing, or in Lithuania's case failing to medal?

:confused:

Hepcat
08-30-2015, 02:58 PM
I'd rather just play with our own talent. Naturalising guys like McCalebb, Draper, Lafayette etc. is just a cheap shortcut and it wouldn't even interest me following such a team. I'd rather us lose than win with an American/whatever player, who is playing for us just to earn some extra $$$. I guess the young fans like the idea of naturalising a foreigner because this is what they are used to already, but not me.

Precisely. The word "cheap" says it all.


First of all biggest part of lithuanians fans are against it,our federations are against this idea...Secondly even if our basketball federation would have decide to do that,our laws are so strict that our countrys president wouldnt give that citizenship anyway .In the near future it wont happen.We gonna play our own boys not nigerians,americans...And when we are winning medal once in every Olympic circle it is won by lithuanian boys and its couple times more sweeter one!

I don't think it would be sweet at all winning a medal if an outright foreigner was recruited onto the team.

Svoura
08-30-2015, 03:06 PM
There is a separate thread dedicated to naturalisations etc.

Hepcat
08-30-2015, 03:12 PM
I get your point, but what you say is not true really. The only thing shared between Mccaleeb, Holden, Antetokounmpo and Sofo, is that they are all black.

You are correct. I'd just like to say that Madmax's views are not representative of those of other Lithuanian basketball fans on this board.

:)

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 03:31 PM
Nikos Galis is probably less of a product of Greek basketball than Calathes. The idea during the 70s and 80s was to invite Greek Americans to strengthen the national team. Galis obviously had a great success. This process is continuing to this day with players like Koufos and Calathes. Both of them were under the loop by the Greek media since their college years or before that. And Greek TV visited their places and made documentaries about their lives as Greek Americans.


http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20080630/low/assets_LARGE_t_1041_1241769.JPG


Maybe our basketball federation should do the same thing, but that said, do not mean that I change my opinion about the similarity Maccaleb and Calathes from a sport point of view.

Lukovski playd for Serbia golden generation even born in Skopje. Borisov for Montenegro. Today you gott Vladimir Micov, etc. Looking and youthe basketball 1 from the u18 SRB Macedonian and 4 players from U16 SRB Macedonians. Petrusev allready part of Laboral. Not only we do not bring them home, nations also steal our players born in Macedonia such as Kristijan Nikolov who playd EL for Galatasaray at age 18, Petrusev, Cadi Osman who Turkey stole, they steal Nikolov too.

Insteed of bring home diaspora. Serbia, Turkey steal players born in Macedonia.

slice me nice
08-30-2015, 03:33 PM
Maybe our basketball federation should do the same thing, but that said, do not mean that I change my opinion about the similarity Maccaleb and Calathes from a sport point of view.

Lukovski playd for Serbia golden generation even born in Skopje. Borisov for Montenegro. Today you gott Vladimir Micov, etc. Looking and youthe basketball 1 from the u18 in Macedonian and 4 players from U16 Macedonians. Petrusev allready part of Laboral. Not only we do not bring them home, nations also steal our players born in Macedonia such as Kristijan Nikolov who playd EL for Galatasaray at age 18, Petrusev, Cadi Osman who Turkey stole, they steal Nikolov too.

Cedi Osman is a Turk. How many times do we have to say the same thing over and over?

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 03:36 PM
Yes but born in Macedonia he holds both Macedonina and Turkish passport. At least keep you hands of Kristijan Nikolov. No ofence.

slice me nice
08-30-2015, 03:39 PM
Yes but born in Macedonia. At least keep you hands of Kristijan Nikolov. No ofence.

I can agree on Nikolov. The guy just quitted his Macedonian citizenship to play in Turkish U18 NT however the federation didn't let him to play there. Now he is trying to get his Macedonian citizenship back. I hope he will get it.

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 03:50 PM
Look man is not like we mass produce talents, so not so funny that someone try to steal the onece we have.

As I told, our federation should work as Greek and Turkey basketball federation. Try to bring home our diaspora specialy from Serbia they have many. 1 at senior NT, 1 at U18 and 4 at U16. + a few with mixed parents SRB MKD mix who we can try to get such as Marko Lukovic and Uros Lukovic, etc.

Victorious
08-30-2015, 04:56 PM
Look man is not like we mass produce talents, so not so funny that someone try to steal the onece we have.

As I told, our federation should work as Greek and Turkey basketball federation. Try to bring home our diaspora specialy from Serbia they have many. 1 at senior NT, 1 at U18 and 4 at U16. + a few with mixed parents SRB MKD mix who we can try to get such as Marko Lukovic and Uros Lukovic, etc.

By all means. Your federation should do the same thing. But I am sure the kids of mixed decent would want to play for Serbia as they have a better basketball tradition. I personally don't like talented players being snatched from small Balkan countries.

CoachZ
08-30-2015, 05:18 PM
Look man is not like we mass produce talents, so not so funny that someone try to steal the onece we have.

As I told, our federation should work as Greek and Turkey basketball federation. Try to bring home our diaspora specialy from Serbia they have many. 1 at senior NT, 1 at U18 and 4 at U16. + a few with mixed parents SRB MKD mix who we can try to get such as Marko Lukovic and Uros Lukovic, etc.

Don't act all crazy. It's a two-way street. Cream of the crop wants to play for a stronger team which gives them a chance to achieve something more and also easier to launch a strong club career. It also works the other way. Players who might not have the quality to break into Serbia/Yugoslavia squads have moved on to play for weaker national teams. Even our past coach Pesic's son played for Germany. It works both ways.

Also your comments about Lukovski hold little value. He was born in Skoplje during Ex-Yugoslavia but lived and grew up in Novi Sad. His father and family are embedded in Serbian basketball community even before Lukovski was a talent as a player. It only makes sense he played for Serbia/Yugo after the country breakup. Vladimir Micov example is even worse, he wasn't even born in MKD and has spent the whole life growing as a player is Serbia (btw You might have a chance at him now, he won't play for NT as long as Djordjevic is coach).

With that logic I can start going through MKD roster and picking out players who are born of different ethnicity or location and start shipping them back to their countries. Pero Antic by that logic is a stolen talent. All I am saying, don't judge people from picking who they want to play for when they have an option. Some would go with the big team for team success, others will go with smaller teams to be the boss and go to guy, third might just want a different passport for life-family reasons. Saying that someone has a plan in place to steal talent is just a conspiracy theory.

keratexas
08-30-2015, 05:36 PM
Maybe our basketball federation should do the same thing, but that said, do not mean that I change my opinion about the similarity Maccaleb and Calathes from a sport point of view.

Lukovski playd for Serbia golden generation even born in Skopje. Borisov for Montenegro. Today you gott Vladimir Micov, etc. Looking and youthe basketball 1 from the u18 SRB Macedonian and 4 players from U16 SRB Macedonians. Petrusev allready part of Laboral. Not only we do not bring them home, nations also steal our players born in Macedonia such as Kristijan Nikolov who playd EL for Galatasaray at age 18, Petrusev, Cadi Osman who Turkey stole, they steal Nikolov too.

Insteed of bring home diaspora. Serbia, Turkey steal players born in Macedonia.

What do u mean they steal?? Many of these players had the option to play for ur national team if they truly wanted..

Hepcat
08-30-2015, 07:18 PM
BTW, what you think if some player lives 10 years in Lithuania and gets citizenship. Is it ok that he plays for NT?


I wouldn't approve that. For me there're two ways to be involved with NT not bein' Lithuanian born in LT by LT parents:

1) born and raised here;
2) born outside country, but having LT parent(-s) (grandparents doesn't count);

I agree with Mindozas.

:)

MZT Skopje
08-30-2015, 08:34 PM
Our basketball federation is a joke. For them is more importent that Mom and Dad boy play than real talents. Just crazy. Rabotnicki is youth champ U16 and U18 still not one singel player from Rabotnicki in the NT cuz they are sponsored by the opposition party SDSM. We are a joke as a nation.

The federetion never liftet the phone hance to call and ask if they (diaspora) want to play. Vladimir Micov not long ago told no one ever asked me playing for Macedonia.

Stefan Popovski Turanjanin 22 years old former Oostende player, born in Skopje. Won golden medal with SRB-20.

You have many more.

KWSN-Men
08-31-2015, 05:34 AM
Yes but born in Macedonia he holds both Macedonina and Turkish passport. At least keep you hands of Kristijan Nikolov. No ofence.


In my mind and from what I have read, he could have played for Turkey, BiH or FYROM and he chose the first, which was his own right.

MZT Skopje
08-31-2015, 09:28 AM
Dzaner Osman who is his older brother has playd for Macedonia and today play for Kumanovo in MKD (will play eurocup) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzaner_Osman

Good states too when he playd for MKD http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8jInH7Qj1EsyH5rjn2.teamID_2604.compID_UIfg jyQcGqk-fPlnl66Tj0.season_2011.roundID_8315.playerID_62365 .html

Ashtrusis_dantis
08-31-2015, 09:36 AM
People who think naturalisation is ok have no idea what it is honourable behavior and fair play. There are only few exceptions. If someone came to your country when he was 5-6, lived here for decade or more, got citizenship, you can't even call it naturalisation - he is citizen of your country, he learned to play in your country and so on. I don't think that having "roots" means anything. In that case european countries could naturalise all white players in both Americas and african all black. Or dig deeper - Africa could naturalise us all :). Second thing is minorities - if some player from some minority (like Poles in Lithuania, Lithuanians in Poland, Hungarians in Slovakia and so on.) want to play for country of his national origin and he surrender citizenship of country where he was born i have no problem with that too. All other cases are just fools gold. For example Rusian victory in year 2007 is cheap to me because of Holden (and I was against Spain in that final because of their "games") and so on.

MZT Skopje
08-31-2015, 09:48 AM
Dzaner Osman who is his older brother has playd for Macedonia and today play for Kumanovo in MKD (will play eurocup) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzaner_Osman

Good states too when he playd for MKD http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8jInH7Qj1EsyH5rjn2.teamID_2604.compID_UIfg jyQcGqk-fPlnl66Tj0.season_2011.roundID_8315.playerID_62365 .html


Just to quote myself.

BIH I have no ideo about ?.

Cedi Osman just holds MKD and TUR passport. As you can read nationality Macedonian-Turkish http://basketball.eurobasket.com/player/Cedi_Osman/Turkey/Anadolu_Efes_Istanbul/217513


Kristijan Nikolov still just 18 years old playd 8 games in euroliga http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=005963&seasoncode=E2014

Nationality Turkish.

But born in Macedonia has polayd for MKD U16 and U18. Also for our reserve senior national team who made the semifinals at the meditarien games 2013.

INTEGRAL
08-31-2015, 10:28 AM
If I was born in New York, can I be American?

Cedi Osman's father is Turkish. How can you call him naturalized?

Dirtyh
08-31-2015, 10:32 AM
I wouldn't approve that. For me there're two ways to be involved with NT not bein' Lithuanian born in LT by LT parents:

1) born and raised here;
2) born outside country, but having LT parent(-s) (grandparents doesn't count);

But that's just mine point of view, this issue is so wide and can have so many different views on it, that we could discuss it for a long time and wouldn't come to agreement

Damn, I have solve this personal problem somehow. I guess Finland, or atleast Finnish bball supporters are overall more tolerant than for example Lithuanians. Maybe it's ok that I just don't cheer for Wilson when he is introduced before games. Well, jokes aside but most Finns, team included, seems to think he is welcomed.

Ashtrusis_dantis
08-31-2015, 11:02 AM
Damn, I have solve this personal problem somehow. I guess Finland, or atleast Finnish bball supporters are overall more tolerant than for example Lithuanians. Maybe it's ok that I just don't cheer for Wilson when he is introduced before games. Well, jokes aside but most Finns, team included, seems to think he is welcomed.

What does it have to do with tolerance? What's a point to have national teams if you can buy players from other countries? In that case it's no longer national team, but simply a club and wins the ones who have more money, but not more talented players, better basketball system/school and so on.

MZT Skopje
08-31-2015, 12:24 PM
If I was born in New York, can I be American?

Cedi Osman's father is Turkish. How can you call him naturalized?

In that case, how can Lukovski be Serbian, even born in Skopje.

Even Osman father is Born in Macedonia. I am a man who care littel about orgin. If you ask me whole Osman family are Macedonians. Dzaner even playd for us.

How can you not be Macedonina if you hold a MKD passport.

To me even Ataturk is part Macedonian since born in the Macedonian region.

Dirtyh
08-31-2015, 12:32 PM
What does it have to do with tolerance? What's a point to have national teams if you can buy players from other countries? In that case it's no longer national team, but simply a club and wins the ones who have more money, but not more talented players, better basketball system/school and so on.

Calm down, I agree with you. Althought Wilson had to live almost 10 years in Finland and marry Finnish girl to get citizenship. And he does not get paid for playing in our NT. There for his case is diffenrent than McCaleb's etc.

But there's lot of people in Finland that thinks that everything that comes from abroad is making only good things to Finnish culture. Including American point guard who surprisingly seems to be most popular player among Finnish spectators.

INTEGRAL
08-31-2015, 01:17 PM
In that case, how can Lukovski be Serbian, even born in Skopje.

Even Osman father is Born in Macedonia. I am a man who care littel about orgin. If you ask me whole Osman family are Macedonians. Dzaner even playd for us.

How can you not be Macedonina if you hold a MKD passport.

To me even Ataturk is part Macedonian since born in the Macedonian region.

Lolllllll

Hepcat
08-31-2015, 03:59 PM
Basketnews posted a list of naturalized foreigners by team to which I've now added a couple:

Belgium - Matt Lojeski
Bosnia and Hercegovina - Alex Renfroe
Croatia - Dontaye Draper
Czech Republic - Blake Schilb
Finland - Jamar Wilson
Georgia - Jacob Pullen
Germany - Anton Gavel
Israel - D'or Fischer
Macedonia - Richard Hendrix
Netherlands - Mohamed Kherrazi
Poland - A.J. Slaughter
Slovenia - Alen Omić
Spain - Nikola Mirotić
Turkey - Ali Muhammed(Bobby Dixon)
Ukraine - Jerome Randle

:(

MZT Skopje
08-31-2015, 04:37 PM
Did Dixon choose that name by him self haha. The boxer Ali. Is not sure yet if Henrix will play for us since he suffered an injury a few days ago during practise. Will be known in the days.

Joško Poljak Fan
08-31-2015, 05:05 PM
Hepcat, you can add Alen Omić to that list

Hepcat
08-31-2015, 05:15 PM
Done!

:)

Hepcat
08-31-2015, 05:16 PM
Did Dixon choose that name by him self haha.

You'd think he would have picked a Turkish-sounding name if he wanted to masquerade as a Turk.

:confused:

Mindozas
08-31-2015, 05:19 PM
Also Kherrazi from Netherlands. Dutch team even was penalized with 2 losses in qualifiers cause he and another naturalized player Cunningham were both in roster

P.S. Hepcat, it's Randle, not Randall ;)

Hepcat
08-31-2015, 05:39 PM
Done again!

:)

Ashtrusis_dantis
08-31-2015, 07:19 PM
Calm down, I agree with you. Althought Wilson had to live almost 10 years in Finland and marry Finnish girl to get citizenship. And he does not get paid for playing in our NT. There for his case is diffenrent than McCaleb's etc.

But there's lot of people in Finland that thinks that everything that comes from abroad is making only good things to Finnish culture. Including American point guard who surprisingly seems to be most popular player among Finnish spectators.

Where did you get the idea that I am not calm? :) No matter that he lives in Finland - he is product of american basketball system and shouldn't play for Finland (because of reasons i wrote earlier). If Lithuanian NT would naturalise someone i would stop supporting it for a time of that player carier in our NT. I have nothing against naturalised players personally (most of them are great persons), but these decisions are simply wrong. There are sports where i wouldnt be so strict (for example couples - dancing and so on.), but if talking about team sports or individuals it clear and simple.

Dirtyh
09-01-2015, 09:34 AM
No matter that he lives in Finland - he is product of american basketball system and shouldn't play for Finland (because of reasons i wrote earlier). If Lithuanian NT would naturalise someone i would stop supporting it for a time of that player carier in our NT. I have nothing against naturalised players personally (most of them are great persons), but these decisions are simply wrong. There are sports where i wouldnt be so strict (for example couples - dancing and so on.), but if talking about team sports or individuals it clear and simple.

I agree 100% but I don't want to stop supporting our team because of this but I also think this is not good thing. Basketball have just started to get little attention in media and our youth teams did great. So our future is looking even better.

What really surprised me was that Wilson seems to be really popular.

Upi
09-01-2015, 11:16 AM
If someone came to your country when he was 5-6, lived here for decade or more, got citizenship, you can't even call it naturalisation

Actually I think that is exactly what you do call naturalization.

Ashtrusis_dantis
09-01-2015, 12:23 PM
Actually I think that is exactly what you do call naturalization.

No I don't. I talk about giving pasport to some professional like in Holden or Bo McCalebb cases and so on.

lemo
09-05-2015, 01:23 AM
How can Finland play with two naturalized players ; Erik Murphy and Jamar Wilson ???!!! Both gain the Finnish citizinship after being 16 of course.
And Erik Murphy officially was their naturalized player at FIBA World Cup.

BiHBasket
09-05-2015, 01:47 AM
Guys, this is the story of Cedi Osman: He was born in Macedonia. His father is Turkish, his mom is Bosniak. Family moved from Macedonia to Bosnia. They lived for years in Sarajevo. Cedi was even 2008 U14 champion of the Bosnia with the Bosna Sarajevo club. Far right kid, that's him
http://sportsport.ba/assets/pictures/article/568/DSC_3520--597x265.jpg

Family later moved to Turkey and he plays for Turkey.




As for the subject, I'm fully against naturalization, FIBA should end with that.

Efesdxb
09-05-2015, 04:26 AM
Guys, this is the story of Cedi Osman: He was born in Macedonia. His father is Turkish, his mom is Bosniak. Family moved from Macedonia to Bosnia. They lived for years in Sarajevo. Cedi was even 2008 U14 champion of the Bosnia with the Bosna Sarajevo club. Far right kid, that's him
http://sportsport.ba/assets/pictures/article/568/DSC_3520--597x265.jpg

Family later moved to Turkey and he plays for Turkey.




As for the subject, I'm fully against naturalization, FIBA should end with that.

So Cedi is not naturalized...

Dirtyh
09-05-2015, 06:34 AM
How can Finland play with two naturalized players ; Erik Murphy and Jamar Wilson ???!!! Both gain the Finnish citizinship after being 16 of course.
And Erik Murphy officially was their naturalized player at FIBA World Cup.

Erik Murphy has been Finn since his birth. He just had to get new Finnish passport last year because his previous was out dated and because he is also US citizen he didn't need one before last year. As you might know he was born in France for Finnish mother and because his mother was active with paper work, all of her kids have been Finns since they born.

She should have been active in teaching Finnish language to her kids too, though. Just like Krista Gross's mother was (similar case in Women's NT).

Pretty much similar case than with Calathes and Koufos. Actually it was pretty close that Alex Murphy had made it in France too. Jamar Wilson is naturalized and I have very mixed feelings about his playing for our NT. Maybe little bit more acceptable than those Renfroe's but still.

lemo
09-05-2015, 10:55 AM
Erik Murphy has been Finn since his birth. He just had to get new Finnish passport last year because his previous was out dated and because he is also US citizen he didn't need one before last year. As you might know he was born in France for Finnish mother and because his mother was active with paper work, all of her kids have been Finns since they born.

She should have been active in teaching Finnish language to her kids too, though. Just like Krista Gross's mother was (similar case in Women's NT).

Pretty much similar case than with Calathes and Koufos. Actually it was pretty close that Alex Murphy had made it in France too. Jamar Wilson is naturalized and I have very mixed feelings about his playing for our NT. Maybe little bit more acceptable than those Renfroe's but still.

Thanks for the info.
Naturalized player is not like the original player whatever the name under which he is called.
Naturalization in Egypt is not accepted at all by the fans even if our NT is not so strong.

Levenspiel
09-05-2015, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the info.
Naturalized player is not like the original player whatever the name under which he is called.
Naturalization in Egypt is not accepted at all by the fans even if our NT is not so strong.
yes, but it will probably change one day, and most of those fans, just like Lithuanians, will start to make up excuses and explanations as to why it's not really a naturalization and it's actually better than mr x or y's situation by comparing it to the worse cases until there is no worse case left :).

a speculation only.

Dreamcatcher
09-07-2015, 01:33 AM
Watched Belgium roster - 1 naturalised player from USA and 3 players born in Africa. Nice.

Modis
09-07-2015, 02:49 AM
Watched Belgium roster - 1 naturalised player from USA and 3 players born in Africa. Nice.

Yeh what is up with these US naturalised players playing for these (national teams) .
Bosnia naturalised player Alex Renfroe, Finland naturalised player Jamar Wilson, Poland naturalised player A. J. Slaughter, Turkey naturalised player Bobby Dixon, Croatia naturalised player Dontaye Draper, Greece naturalised player Nick Calathes, Ukraine naturalised player Jerome Randle . Sometimes I see on the time outs coaches have to speak to them in English its hilarious :D

wilhelm
09-07-2015, 03:33 AM
Watched Belgium roster - 1 naturalised player from USA and 3 players born in Africa. Nice.

Tabu, Mukubu and Tumba are indeed born in Africa but to be more precise in Congo, a former colony of Belgium for nearly 60 years.
Like most ex-colonial countries(UK,France especially) there's a special relationship nowdays between them and their former colonies and a huge moral responsibility to accept and integrate people who migrate from those lands to ours and grant them citizenships. So no, they are not considered naturalised but legitimate Belgians,we even share the same language for God's sake. Please be more informed when you comment on such sensitive issues. I dont wanna get political but i've seen many lithuanians on these boards ranting about countries that have african born players. Belgium is a multicultural nation of many different ethnicities,meaning that if you are granted the citizenship and you feel belgian then that's all that matters. You have a different opinion about this issue and thats totaly fine as long as you dont whine about our differences and believe that you are right and we are wrong (and vice-verca).Just accept that we are different and move on
Our only "naturalised" player is Matt Lojeski but he's been living in Belgium for more than 6 years and he states all the time that he is more than happy and proud to represent our country.
If i am not mistaken Lavrinovic brothers were polish born and raised and lithuania so i dont get how's that different to our case.Maybe if they were black you would have a different opinion about them too.
Anyways back on topic.I do believe that Lithuania is the favorite in this game, but not by far and despite the fact that Lith tops the group i dont believe that they are gonna get out of it undefeated.Perhaps we could pull of a surprise

adebisi
09-07-2015, 04:36 AM
If i am not mistaken Lavrinovic brothers were polish born and raised

You're wrong here... Yes, Lavrinovic bros have some polish roots, but they were born and raised in Vilnius.
Regarding the game, I expect low scoring game and a hard win for LTU.

Dirtyh
09-07-2015, 05:11 AM
Yeh what is up with these US naturalised players playing for these (national teams) .
Bosnia naturalised player Alex Renfroe, Finland naturalised player Jamar Wilson, Poland naturalised player A. J. Slaughter, Turkey naturalised player Bobby Dixon, Croatia naturalised player Dontaye Draper, Greece naturalised player Nick Calathes, Ukraine naturalised player Jerome Randle . Sometimes I see on the time outs coaches have to speak to them in English its hilarious :D

Sorry to say but if your country would not be so poor you would have those immigrants too. There's hundred of thousands people from Baltic countries living in Finland just because they has better life here. If some of their kids, who has born in Lithuania but has raised and live all his life in Finland wants to play for Finnish NT it's totally ok. And think about it; If one of Sabonis' son is going to get kids out side of Lithuania, they are not able to play for Lithuanian NT because grand parents does not count according to your rules.

And to be honest, all of you wanted Nik Stauskas to play for your NT.

About game I think that even Lithuania has struggled they're gonna take this game.

ncjazz
09-07-2015, 05:29 AM
Yeh what is up with these US naturalised players playing for these (national teams) .
Bosnia naturalised player Alex Renfroe, Finland naturalised player Jamar Wilson, Poland naturalised player A. J. Slaughter, Turkey naturalised player Bobby Dixon, Croatia naturalised player Dontaye Draper, Greece naturalised player Nick Calathes, Ukraine naturalised player Jerome Randle . Sometimes I see on the time outs coaches have to speak to them in English its hilarious :D

American point guards will always have a roster spot on another countries team. ;) I think Pooh Jeter and Bo Mcalebb were the the best though. Did Bobby Dixon have to change his name to Mohammad to join Turkey or was that his own choice?

Raz
09-07-2015, 06:02 AM
Greece naturalised player Nick Calathes

Calathes is not naturalised.He is Greek American.

omgsomuchpotential
09-07-2015, 06:02 AM
And to be honest, all of you wanted Nik Stauskas to play for your NT.

False. Definitely not everyone. But still, Stauskas not only has a Lithuanian surname but can speak and understand some of the language, knows some of the history and has legit heritage. And those are of the main things that define a nationality. If he was to play for Lithuania, it wouldn't be that much of a joke as say Bo McCalebb or Bobby Dixon.

Dirtyh
09-07-2015, 06:20 AM
If he was to play for Lithuania, it wouldn't be that much of a joke as say Bo McCalebb or Bobby Dixon.

Agree 100%.

Svajunas
09-07-2015, 08:12 AM
Im definetly not against it, because rules allow it. But I would rather not see naturalised players in national teams. Guys with heritage is a different story.

Ashtrusis_dantis
09-07-2015, 09:45 AM
yes, but it will probably change one day, and most of those fans, just like Lithuanians, will start to make up excuses and explanations as to why it's not really a naturalization and it's actually better than mr x or y's situation by comparing it to the worse cases until there is no worse case left :).

a speculation only.

Was you drunk when writing this comment? Can't understand what you are trying to say - Lithuanian fans make excuses? About what? We didn't have naturalised player in our NT since we returned independence in 1990. The only one who need excuses (and a lot of them) is you, your country is famous with it's naturalisations.

Efesdxb
09-07-2015, 09:49 AM
American point guards will always have a roster spot on another countries team. ;) I think Pooh Jeter and Bo Mcalebb were the the best though. Did Bobby Dixon have to change his name to Mohammad to join Turkey or was that his own choice?

According to our laws, if someone becomes a Turkish citizen, he/she should have Turkish name.
It is just a procedure. e was asked and he preferred this name.
LaToya Sanders (naturalized woman pasketball player) changed her name to Lara.
Another note, Emir didn't change his name as it is also available in Turkish.

Ashtrusis_dantis
09-07-2015, 09:56 AM
Our only "naturalised" player is Matt Lojeski but he's been living in Belgium for more than 6 years and he states all the time that he is more than happy and proud to represent our country.

And why quotation-marks? He came to Belgium beeing 23 years old - fully grown professional. So that is pure and primitive naturalisation. I have no problem with players who came to some country at small age and became players in that country. You can't call it naturalisation. But this case is clear.


If i am not mistaken Lavrinovic brothers were polish born and raised and lithuania so i dont get how's that different to our case.

There is small difference - they were born on Lithuanian soil. But not big difference for me.

Ashtrusis_dantis
09-07-2015, 10:06 AM
Sorry to say but if your country would not be so poor you would have those immigrants too. There's hundred of thousands people from Baltic countries living in Finland just because they has better life here. If some of their kids, who has born in Lithuania but has raised and live all his life in Finland wants to play for Finnish NT it's totally ok. And think about it; If one of Sabonis' son is going to get kids out side of Lithuania, they are not able to play for Lithuanian NT because grand parents does not count according to your rules.

Yes we are pure compared to your standarts, but to Africa, Latin America or most of Asia we are quite rich, but that's true and i have no problem with other countries having imigrants or their children playing for counties they live. I will have no problem when imigrants start to play in our NT's. They will be citizens of my country, born and learned to play here.


And to be honest, all of you wanted Nik Stauskas to play for your NT.

Don't think about others based on your own wishes. I am proud about Stauskas, because of his roots, but never wanted him to be in our NT becourse that would be naturalisation.

Dirtyh
09-07-2015, 10:20 AM
There would be pretty easy solution. Now 1 naturalized player has permission to play. Just make it zero. Some countries maybe start to naturalize those U16 players little bit more but I'm not even believing to it. And then again, under 16 year old is not fully grown professional. Maybe he is talented but still lot of work to do.

And for all Lithuanian fans; I'm not trying to fight with you. Maybe our opinions are have little conversation but as a basketball wise I have huge respect for you and if someday I'm able beat my flying fear I will visit Kaunas for Euroleague game for sure.

MZT Skopje
09-07-2015, 12:48 PM
Our american aint even starter haha. Wos not supposed to be like this but he didint show anything on preperation noor first two games on this EC.

BiHBasket
09-08-2015, 05:24 AM
We should do some scouting here:cool:

Bosnian tribes who still live in Central Africa found! (http://www.sarajevotimes.com/bosnian-tribes-who-still-live-in-central-africa-found/)

aenaon
09-08-2015, 05:57 AM
I do not care much about bloodlines, etc. Personaly I see no deference between Maccaleb and Calathes, the only thing that matters is if your an Product of the domestic basketball and Calathes hardly spoke any Greek few years ago hance beeing a Product of Greek basketball.

ofcource you don't care about bloodlines and all that, I wont say why it is obvious you don't care about things like that,
because the moderator will come flying, but it is obvious that blood lines and all is just a big joke for you :)

But I have a question for you: Is Giannis a product of Greek Basketball? Of course he is, he learned the game in Athens, and only moved to the nba 2 years ago. So what will happen in say 8 years from now, when he is maybe a different player, an NBA product? Will we still be allowed to call him over, and if so, will he be allowed to use the moves he learned in his nba career?

I am just pulling your leg, what I am trying to explain, is that bo macaleb, or any other player you buy for money through the Internet, is naturalization, the rest is natural.

It is difficult to say who is or not a true citizen of a European country nowadays, and it will only get more difficult until there are no such things as European countries.
But for the time being, let us agree that when we say we don't like naturalization very much, we are talking about the ones that resemble club team transfers, give money, take player and so on.

Levenspiel
09-08-2015, 08:30 AM
Was you drunk when writing this comment? Can't understand what you are trying to say - Lithuanian fans make excuses? About what? We didn't have naturalised player in our NT since we returned independence in 1990. The only one who need excuses (and a lot of them) is you, your country is famous with it's naturalisations.
haha, that's possible...

You don't make excuses, yet :). But I have a feeling you will have to one day. that was my speculation, we'll see.

We Turkish have naturalized in every possible way, so we do not even bother with excuses any more. Many people are against it, but the fact is there, no need to sugarcoat it. It only bothers people for non-naturalized players to be put in the same basket, as we had strange claims here about Turkoglu, Okur, etc.

Victorious
09-08-2015, 09:19 AM
ofcource you don't care about bloodlines and all that, I wont say why it is obvious you don't care about things like that,
because the moderator will come flying, but it is obvious that blood lines and all is just a big joke for you :)

But I have a question for you: Is Giannis a product of Greek Basketball? Of course he is, he learned the game in Athens, and only moved to the nba 2 years ago. So what will happen in say 8 years from now, when he is maybe a different player, an NBA product? Will we still be allowed to call him over, and if so, will he be allowed to use the moves he learned in his nba career?

I am just pulling your leg, what I am trying to explain, is that bo macaleb, or any other player you buy for money through the Internet, is naturalization, the rest is natural.

It is difficult to say who is or not a true citizen of a European country nowadays, and it will only get more difficult until there are no such things as European countries.
But for the time being, let us agree that when we say we don't like naturalization very much, we are talking about the ones that resemble club team transfers, give money, take player and so on.

I would say the most important thing is how the fans of the country see it. What others think of it is their problem.

Ashtrusis_dantis
09-08-2015, 09:43 AM
You don't make excuses, yet :). But I have a feeling you will have to one day. that was my speculation, we'll see.

Ou, prophet. We'll see.


We Turkish have naturalized in every possible way, so we do not even bother with excuses any more. Many people are against it, but the fact is there, no need to sugarcoat it. It only bothers people for non-naturalized players to be put in the same basket, as we had strange claims here about Turkoglu, Okur, etc.

Yes, you did that. Did it help you to win? Just look at our victory list and yours. Clear and simple. :) Not even talking about difference in size of Lithuania and Turkia, but we all know - size doesn't matter. :D

ab_mj
09-08-2015, 10:47 AM
I read lots of posts about this subject, who was born where, who's father from where..
I think, main criteria should be about if the player has been grown by the country or not.
Of course this not easy if Cedi has played Bosnia U14 team. I think players should be allwed choose where they want to play.

Levenspiel
09-08-2015, 11:04 AM
Yes, you did that. Did it help you to win? Just look at our victory list and yours. Clear and simple. :) Not even talking about difference in size of Lithuania and Turkia, but we all know - size doesn't matter. :D
Actually, it did help us to improve. Remember Mirsad? Kuqo? You cannot just go to the top from the bottom in a few years, you know. Turkey's bball can be taken seriously only after mid-90s (imho), and we are somewhere in the top 10 in Europe I guess, which is not too bad. Lithuania is special, we cannot really get there yet, but in a few years, I can see a different picture forming, maybe nicer than Lithuania's. Another prophecy, we'll see :).

Jon_Koncak
09-08-2015, 11:23 AM
Come on . No difference between them? One is descendant of Greeks. Sure he was born and raised in US but it does have some affiliation with Greece ( plus he spent a few years with PAO in Greece) while the other has no relation what so ever with your country. No parents or grandparents born there or anything. I can understand naturalizing a player that spend some years in a country playing basketball there and feeling connected with said country but i dont get how someone can play for a country he never lived there or have any relation with

Actually he isnt.Calathes is adopted.

HELLAS
09-08-2015, 12:00 PM
GREECE
Calathis. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Koufos. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Antetokoumpo. His parents are from Nigeria but Yannis got born and lived all his life in Greece.

FYROM
Mccaleb. Ηis American from USA. Both of his parents are Americans as well. But he played for FYROM national team.

Now make your calculations. Hmm ...

As for my friends from FYROM. Guys if you want to make your point, you shouldn't use Shortsianitis Antetokoumpo Calathis or Koufos as naturalization examples because they all have Greek parents or they got born in Greece. If you were smart enough you should use examples like Tsakalidis. Yes we have make the mistake to naturalize a player in our past with Tsakalidis. He didn't born in Greece, and he didn't have Greek parents. Nothing to connect him with Greece.

We have to stop naturalize players. We have to respect our national teams more. And we all have to do that.
The point of having Eurobasket is to find out which country is the best basketball team. So we don't want the Americans play for our teams.

And something last for my friends from FYROM. Please you are free to believe that the G.Alexander had a Slavic roots. History will tell. But when you write down the word Macedonia, please don't connect the first letter ''M'' with MacDonald logo. Because that way you prove your strongly connections with the American propaganda. We are proud for G.Alexander as you are. So please show more respect to the name Macedonia and don't connect it with MacDonalds logo. It's stupid.

Picek
09-08-2015, 12:00 PM
I am just pulling your leg, what I am trying to explain, is that bo macaleb, or any other player you buy for money through the Internet, is naturalization, the rest is natural.

you mean like the Dorsey kid whom you found over internet?

aenaon
09-08-2015, 12:33 PM
you mean like the Dorsey kid whom you found over internet?

he had a Greek grandpa, we didn't find him over the net, his coach was here trying to take Papagiannis to the USA and we ended up with his player instead, but I do get your point. :)

MZT Skopje
09-08-2015, 12:56 PM
GREECE
Calathis. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Koufos. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Antetokoumpo. His parents are from Nigeria but Yannis got born and lived all his life in Greece.

FYROM
Mccaleb. Ηis American from USA. Both of his parents are Americans as well. But he played for FYROM national team.

Now make your calculations. Hmm ...

As for my friends from FYROM. Guys if you want to make your point, you shouldn't use Shortsianitis Antetokoumpo Calathis or Koufos as naturalization examples because they all have Greek parents or they got born in Greece. If you were smart enough you should use examples like Tsakalidis. Yes we have make the mistake to naturalize a player in our past with Tsakalidis. He didn't born in Greece, and he didn't have Greek parents. Nothing to connect him with Greece.

We have to stop naturalize players. We have to respect our national teams more. And we all have to do that.
The point of having Eurobasket is to find out which country is the best basketball team. So we don't want the Americans play for our teams.

And something last for my friends from FYROM. Please you are free to believe that the G.Alexander had a Slavic roots. History will tell. But when you write down the word Macedonia, please don't connect the first letter ''M'' with MacDonald logo. Because that way you prove your strongly connections with the American propaganda. We are proud for G.Alexander as you are. So please show more respect to the name Macedonia and don't connect it with MacDonalds logo. It's stupid.


You should be very carefull when it comes to bloodline, my response is to aenaon as well. Iam prob more Hellenic Macedonian than any of you Greeks on this forum since I am born in Bitola (Part of the Pelagonia region witch includes Gevgelija, Prilep, Krusevo, Pespa and Ohrid too). Used to belong the old Macedonian map. People in this city used to be hellenic we all got slavonizized. You know in Bitola exist over 4000 graves with Greeks names, old poeple who died of age. But I do not care about it, I do not care if I am more Macedonina that Athenian who moved to Thesaloniki 1913 or some of you who are born in Athens.

In Macedonia as you prefer as FYROM had 3 deferent tribes, slavic, aromanian and hellenic. Here used to live Greeks, Bulgarinas, Aromanians and Serb. Albanians showed up just 70-80 years ago.

Bloodlins belong to the nazi world, not to modern europe 2015. Thats way Calathes will allways be amaerican in my eyes. Will allways be amarican basketball product.

HELLAS
09-08-2015, 01:10 PM
You should be very carefull when it comes to bloodline, my response is to aenaon as well. Iam prob more Hellenic Macedonian than any of you Greeks on this forum since I am born in Bitola (Part of the Pelagonia region witch includes Gevgelija, Prilep, Krusevo, Pespa and Ohrid too). Used to belong the old Macedonian map. People in this city used to be hellenic we all got slavonizized. You know in Bitola exist over 4000 graves with Greeks names, old poeple who died of age. But I do not care about it, I do not care if I am more Macedonina that Athenian who moved to Thesaloniki 1913 or some of you who are born in Athens.

In Macedonia as you prefer as FYROM had 3 deferent tribes, slavic, aromanian and hellenic. Here used to live Greeks, Bulgarinas, Aromanians and Serb. Albanians showed up just 70-80 years ago.

Bloodlins belong to the nazi world, not to modern europe 2015. Thats way Calathes will allways be amaerican in my eyes. Will allways be amarican basketball product.

Wrong answer.
Never did mention anything about blood connections. All I said was that there are people with root connections.
So if you all end up slavonizized why do you still speak slavo language, instead of starting speak Greek? You are a free country now and if you were Greeks at the past (I don't doubt it) then why are you so hostile to Greece? Why you can't just admit that the G.Alexander was Greek?
You should claim Macedonia history as yours as well, and not as only yours. If you had make the first one, we would support you as well.
And of course you are right about what you said for the place. There was a part of Macedonia as well. No one doubts it.

I don't want to be hostile to FYROM people. But I can't see all these things happening in your country with people that they have nothing to do with Macedonia history.
I am happy you have the knowledge for the area and for the history as well. And yes I consider you Macedonian as well. But Macedonia can't be a country. It was Greece's kingdom like Crete Like Sparti etc. And there's a big part of Macedonia in north of Greece.

If you want to have a country by the name Macedonia, then the south section of Macedonia which belongs to Greece territory what is it then? An occupant land by the Greeks? Come on mate ... You know that both sides have there own rights.

MZT Skopje
09-08-2015, 02:14 PM
Everyone exept Albanians has to do with Macedonian history since aromanins, serbs, bulgarians did live in the macedonian region for a long time eve if they have nothing to do with aleksander. And specialy us from the pelagonia region haver a lot in commen with Greeks. We do even have a bloodline connections, not poeple from Skopje but we from Pelagonia.

I have made a family investigation and it do show that my grandfathers grandfather used to be greek. I do not know why, we did not care about it anymore is my wildest guess. Serbs and Bulgarians did ruin every greek school in Bitola, changed our names. We gott use to it. But I see this as my home today. Also poeple in Macedonia are very friendly maybe thats why the asimilation did go very well.

But you have to understand to me this aint importent. I am a Communist based person.

Adon
09-08-2015, 03:25 PM
Citizenship is a formality defined by the laws of each country. Since there is no violation of local laws or FIBA laws, everything is legit and every other discussion is philosophical. On the other hand, nationality -depending always on a subjective definition- could have degrees. For example, most people would agree that Calathes is somewhat "less Greece" than Spanoulis because he doesn't speak Greek fluently, he was raised in the US, etc. Using the same reasoning, Maccaleb is "less FYROMacedonian" than Calathes is Greek because the later was raised by Greek parents and so on.

Is there an objective and generally accepted line other than the citizenship and the conventions of international laws? Imo no. It's just a matter of aesthetics for every observer or (as Victorious wrote) a matter of the local fans. Anything else is a never ending and tiresome discussion without algorithm, a discussion which is a chance for nationalistic propaganda.

Italian Pride
02-27-2019, 09:39 PM
Guys,i have a question:

Donte Di Vincenzo,"big ragů" is looking to get italian passport next summer,so he could be include like italian without restriction or not? In Italy some people think that this case is very close to calathes,bramos and koufous' cases that have played many years together in the national team

Somebody can explain me what case is it,please?