PDA

View Full Version : Which team has the best roster in the Euroleague?



The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 10:04 AM
3... 2... 1... Vote!

UNICAJA

Cabezas/Pepe Sánchez
Marcus Brown/ Berni Rodriguez
Jiri Welsch/ C.Jimenez/ K.Vasiliadis
E.Lorbek/F.Pietrus
Daniel Santiago/ I. de Miguel

TAU

Igor Rakocevic/ Pablo Prigioni
Serkan Erdogan/ Frederick House
Zoran Planinic/ Sergi Vidal
Luis Scola/ D.Fajardo/ M.Teletovic
Tiago Splitter/ Kaya Peker

CSKA

John Robert Holden/ Theodoros Papaloukas
Trajan Langdon/ Z.Pashutin
David Vanterpool/ Nikita Kurbanov
David Andersen/ Matjaz Smodis
Savrasenko/ Van der Spiegel

Barça

Jaka Lakovic/ Roko-Leni Ukic
JC Navarro/ G. Basile/ Roger Grimau
M. Kakiouzis/ R. De la Fuente
Fran Vazquez/ J.Trias
Denis Marconato/ Mario Kasun

PAO

D.Diamantidis/ Vujanic
Becirovic/ Hatzivrettas/Delk
Siskauskas/ N.Sakota
Batiste/ Dikoudis/Tsartsaris
Tomasevic/ Javtokas

CreEkShooT
11-25-2006, 10:33 AM
oly for sure. . . :p

The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 10:44 AM
oly for sure. . . :p

Any team with Arvydas Macijauskas in its roster becomes automatically hors categorie. :)

final countdown
11-25-2006, 11:32 AM
3... 2... 1... Vote!

PAO
D.Diamantidis/ Vujanic
Becirovic/ Hatzivrettas
Siskauskas/ N.Sakota
Batiste/ Dikoudis
Tomasevic/ Javtokas

Sorry my friend but u forgot to mention Delk (the most expensive contract of PAO this year), Tsartsaris and of course Alvertis (legendary captain of this team with 3EL titles)

CSKA, PAO and Barca have the best rosters.
But there would be no suprise if TAU or OLY win the EL title in Athens.
IMHO opinion this year champion would come from those 5 teams with a propability of 99% (1% is left out because bball is a great sport and anything can happen).

CreEkShooT
11-25-2006, 11:50 AM
has alvertis played in EL this sesason?

The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 11:58 AM
Sorry my friend but u forgot to mention Delk (the most expensive contract of PAO this year), Tsartsaris and of course Alvertis (legendary captain of this team with 3EL titles)

Yeah, thank you, FC. Delk and Alvertis aren't playing that much right now, but how could I forget Tsartsaris?? :confused:

turkishpower
11-25-2006, 12:29 PM
gotta go with TAU, I mean take a look at the roster, Scola, Rakocevic, Planinic, Prigioni etc.... Kaya Peker is a solid backup for PF/C. SG position isn't bad either. I didn't pick PAO because they lack a good SF(Siskauskas:confused: ). And their C's are not the best centers out there either. PAO's PG's, SG's and PF's are awesome though. Third, I have to go with CSKA...

ziv
11-25-2006, 12:35 PM
and Fajardo left tau but never mind that.
players-wise i think there can be no doubt. pao he's the best roster. just keep in mind that javtokas bearly plays and dikoudis getting way-less minutes than he would in any other team. vujanic if healthy, becirovic, delk who still is a lethal shooter, siska and of course diamntidis, even rather un-noticed chatzivretas (keep you spelling corrections to yourself, please) is performing very well so far. so even if you mesure it by reputation or by actuall performence pao wins the pot.
and of course - coach-wise, pao is in the first line with only oly and cska (imo).
oly - should be counted in the survey too. though there players aren't as good (mano-a-mano) as tau and barcelona for example.

CreEkShooT
11-25-2006, 12:48 PM
why unicaja in the poll?

T.W.Is.M.
11-25-2006, 12:58 PM
And why not Olympiacos in the poll???For me the 3 best rosters are Olympiacos, Panathinaikos and CSKA(random order).Barcelona comes 4th imo because they have a weaker frontlilne than these 3 I mentioned

The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 01:07 PM
I personally like Unicaja's roster. I'm a big fan of Euroleague all time leading scorer Marcus Brown. Then they have a well covered point guard spot, with Carlos Cabezas and Juan "Pepe" Sánchez. a strong presence inside, with Big Daniel Santiago, Erazem Lorbek and Carlos Jiménez. And superb swingmen in Berni Rodriguez and Jiri Welsch (keep an eye on these guys).

But the best roster is TAU's hands down. A roster full of stars (Rakocevic, Erdogan, Planinic, Scola) any of whom could be the best player in any other team. and more... Splitter, House, Peker, Prigioni, Vidal... yeah, I voted for them.

EverGreen
11-25-2006, 01:36 PM
Yeah, thank you, FC. Delk and Alvertis aren't playing that much right now, but how could I forget Tsartsaris?? :confused:

You are right about Alvertis but completely wrong about Delk. Unless ofcourse, you don't think playing 22 mins on average each game is "much" whilst being the teams 2nd top scorer after Batiste.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7813/delkmi1.jpg

rchos7
11-25-2006, 01:46 PM
i wouldn't vote oly as the best roster but if malaga is in that list then oly should alsdo be there!
i voted other for this reason.

The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 02:40 PM
You are right about Alvertis but completely wrong about Delk. Unless ofcourse, you don't think playing 22 mins on average each game is "much" whilst being the teams 2nd top scorer after Batiste.

Yeah, I know. But he didn't play in the last game, that's why I forget about him.

The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 02:53 PM
i wouldn't vote oly as the best roster but if malaga is in that list then oly should alsdo be there!
I would say a Macas-less Olympiakos is not on the level of ACB champ Unicaja rosterwise. But this is a free country and you can vote for whatever team you want. :)

FRANKY 13
11-25-2006, 03:48 PM
Yeah, I know. But he didn't play in the last game, that's why I forget about him.

He was injured thats why he didn t play
Even obradovic after the game said that playing without delk which has an important offensive contribution was a big disadvantage. Delk is for sure a key player of PAO.

As far as the roster is concerned I thnik that PAO s roster is the best even in terms of quality and quantity.
The only roster i can compare it is TAUs roster which is full of stars too but TAU has 8-9 great players while PAO has 12

rikhardur
11-25-2006, 04:22 PM
Hard for me to say actually. Between PAO and TAU I'd perhaps choose the former.
Btw Oly should be on the list...

The Barbarian
11-25-2006, 05:38 PM
Btw Oly should be on the list...
:D

Yeah, sure, but there are some other good teams out there, not only the Reds.
Maccabi, Efes, Benetton, Joventut, Ulker... I don't get why everybody is so high on Olympiakos...

rchos7
11-25-2006, 09:17 PM
I don't get why everybody is so high on Olympiakos..

try to find out why!we are not just crazy!

Victorious
11-26-2006, 05:56 PM
In Europe, in order to win titles, you need to have European stars on your team. That's a rule. Americans can be very productive, but a team without one or two Euro stars wont get you the Euroleague title. That's why Olympiakios is not on that list. Penn, Domercant, Acker, Stack can win as many games as you like in the primary fase, but when the sh!t hits the fan, they will loose. Lucky for the reds, they still have Macas.:cool: Baby Shaq and Vasilopoulos are not Euro stars.

Look at the champs:

Pao: Bodiroga
Maccabi: Jasikevicious
CSKA: Papaloukas
Kinder: Ginobili (argentinians included)
Real: Sabonis
Split: Petrovic

today:
CSKA: Papaloukas
TAU: Scola, prigioni, erdogan, list goes on
PAO: Diamantidis, Tomasevic, Tsartsaris, Becirovic, list goes on.
Barca: Lakovic, La Bomba Navarro, Kakiouzis, Marconato etc.

Levenspiel
11-26-2006, 06:11 PM
1. Oly, TAU, PAO (couldn't decide the order, they're at about the same level)
4. CSKA
5. Barcelona

and Unicaja is not there. No way. I'm just judging by the EL games, and they have never been there (for as many years as I remember).

btw, Marcus Brown is also one of my most favorite players.

Joško Poljak Fan
11-26-2006, 06:27 PM
Pao: Bodiroga
Maccabi: Jasikevicious
CSKA: Papaloukas
Kinder: Ginobili (argentinians included)
Real: Sabonis
Split: Petrovic

I believe you meant Kukoč and Radja or you've meant Cibona instead of Split...
otherwise, I think having an european star sure helped in the past, right now, there aren't many teams that would depend purely on americans, as the quality of european players has rissen too much to find as many as good US players that can't get to NBA...
so having quality european players is eveen more important now that it was in the previous two decades...

Victorious
11-26-2006, 07:01 PM
I believe you meant Kukoč and Radja or you've meant Cibona instead of Split...
otherwise, I think having an european star sure helped in the past, right now, there aren't many teams that would depend purely on americans, as the quality of european players has rissen too much to find as many as good US players that can't get to NBA...
so having quality european players is eveen more important now that it was in the previous two decades...

I stand corrected on the Split issue.

As for the rest of your comment. I might be a little eurocentric when I say that is also a matter of passion or character of the Euro players.

You are right that the level of European players has risen, but even in the old days there were always some of the best European stars on the championship teams.

T.W.Is.M.
11-26-2006, 07:21 PM
In Europe, in order to win titles, you need to have European stars on your team. That's a rule. Americans can be very productive, but a team without one or two Euro stars wont get you the Euroleague title. That's why Olympiakios is not on that list. Penn, Domercant, Acker, Stack can win as many games as you like in the primary fase, but when the sh!t hits the fan, they will loose. Lucky for the reds, they still have Macas.:cool: Baby Shaq and Vasilopoulos are not Euro stars.



U have a point there but as a fan of Olympiacos I remember my team's rosters well and I can tell u that our best team ever that won all 3 titles in a season, including a 15-point win in the euroleague final(1997) didn't have a european star as the ones u mentioned.MVP was David Rivers, an American.The only big european name we had was Fassoulas, who was a defensive leader, but he never was a go-to-guy.

Victorious
11-26-2006, 08:56 PM
U have a point there but as a fan of Olympiacos I remember my team's rosters well and I can tell u that our best team ever that won all 3 titles in a season, including a 15-point win in the euroleague final(1997) didn't have a european star as the ones u mentioned.MVP was David Rivers, an American.The only big european name we had was Fassoulas, who was a defensive leader, but he never was a go-to-guy.

Rivers played great in that final and besides Fasoulas there was also Papanikolaou, Tarlac, Tomic, Nakic.

Anyway, Rivers is one of those exceptions, but he was surrounded with European players.

EverGreen
11-26-2006, 09:24 PM
Dominique Wilkins did it for us in 1996 but had good support from Vrankovic, Alvertis and Economou.

T.W.Is.M.
11-26-2006, 09:34 PM
Rivers played great in that final and besides Fasoulas there was also Papanikolaou, Tarlac, Tomic, Nakic.

Anyway, Rivers is one of those exceptions, but he was surrounded with European players.

But none of these players u mentioned were considered superstars.Of course Rivers was surrounded by european players because these years it wasn't easy to form a team full of americans.It was the 1st year of the bosman ruling, there was a restriction of 2 non-eu players on each team and eastern europeans were considered foreigners(so with these restrictions we couldn't have Stack or Domercant in our team).
Another similar example to EverGreen's(Wilkins and PAO) is Bob McAdoo and Tracer Milano who won back-to-back titles in 1987 and 1988.Genereally speaking though, u have a point and that's why Pinhas initially built his team around Macijauskas.

The Barbarian
11-28-2006, 11:00 PM
As far as the roster is concerned I thnik that PAO s roster is the best even in terms of quality and quantity.
The only roster i can compare it is TAUs roster which is full of stars too but TAU has 8-9 great players while PAO has 12

I disagree. The key for PAO's success, IMO, is in their coach, the great Zeljko Obradovic. I don't see PAO as a team of stars, but a well coached team of middle class players. To put it into perspective, the TAU/PAO thing is something like this: Splitter > Tsartsaris, Scola > Batiste, F. House > Siskauskas, Prigioni > Diamantidis, Erdogan > Delk, Planinic > Hatzivrettas, S.Vidal > Sakota, Rakocevic > Vujanic, Peker < Tomasevic, Teletovic < Javtokas.

The Barbarian
11-28-2006, 11:08 PM
and Unicaja is not there. No way. I'm just judging by the EL games, and they have never been there (for as many years as I remember)

Remember Sammy Jankis...

# Group C TG W L P+ P-
1 Unicaja 14 12 2 1100 1015
2 Panathinaikos 14 12 2 1219 1063
3 CSKA Moscow 14 10 4 1116 950
4 Real Madrid 14 7 7 1012 1004
5 Ulker 14 5 9 1000 1055
6 Montepaschi 14 4 10 1001 1055
7 Pau-Orthez 14 4 10 971 1103
8 Partizan 14 2 12 978 1152

FRANKY 13
11-29-2006, 12:05 AM
I disagree. The key for PAO's success, IMO, is in their coach, the great Zeljko Obradovic. I don't see PAO as a team of stars, but a well coached team of middle class players. To put it into perspective, the TAU/PAO thing is something like this: Splitter > Tsartsaris, Scola > Batiste, F. House > Siskauskas, Prigioni > Diamantidis, Erdogan > Delk, Planinic > Hatzivrettas, S.Vidal > Sakota, Rakocevic > Vujanic, Peker < Tomasevic, Teletovic < Javtokas.

You must be kidding man:eek:
Ok scola is better than batist no question about that
Splitter better than tsartsaris ok too.
Planinic better than chatwivrettas? Yes
Peker than tomasevic? I give you that one too

BUT NO WAY
prigioni better than diamantidis HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA
You make me lough dude seriously.
House better than siska:eek:
Eedogann better than delk? Blasphemy
rakosevic better than Vujanic? Yes right now , but if milos comes back after 2 months as he was 2 years ago he s way better.

What have TAUs palyers done in order to be considered as stars? PAOs players have all of them world championships, european championships, euroleagues...TAUs players:if it wasn tscola they wouldn thave ANYTHING

EverGreen
11-29-2006, 12:21 AM
I disagree. The key for PAO's success, IMO, is in their coach, the great Zeljko Obradovic. I don't see PAO as a team of stars, but a well coached team of middle class players. To put it into perspective, the TAU/PAO thing is something like this: Splitter > Tsartsaris, Scola > Batiste, F. House > Siskauskas, Prigioni > Diamantidis, Erdogan > Delk, Planinic > Hatzivrettas, S.Vidal > Sakota, Rakocevic > Vujanic, Peker < Tomasevic, Teletovic < Javtokas.

Dude, what are you smoking? :D

turkishpower
11-29-2006, 12:27 AM
I disagree. The key for PAO's success, IMO, is in their coach, the great Zeljko Obradovic. I don't see PAO as a team of stars, but a well coached team of middle class players. To put it into perspective, the TAU/PAO thing is something like this: Splitter > Tsartsaris, Scola > Batiste, F. House > Siskauskas, Prigioni > Diamantidis, Erdogan > Delk, Planinic > Hatzivrettas, S.Vidal > Sakota, Rakocevic > Vujanic, Peker < Tomasevic, Teletovic < Javtokas.


In my opinion,
Splitter > Tsartsaris
Scola > Batiste
F. House > Siskauskas --> very overrated IMO
Planinic > Hatzivrettas
Vidal > Sakota
Rakocevic > Vujanic

Peker = Tomasevic

Javtokas > Teletovic
Diamantidis > Prigioni
Delk > Erdogan


In overall, TAU's roster is better and more complete





What have TAUs palyers done in order to be considered as stars? PAOs players have all of them world championships, european championships, euroleagues...TAUs players:if it wasn tscola they wouldn thave ANYTHING


Scola, Rakocevic, Planinic are at superstar level for Europe and
Peker, Erdogan and Splitter are also some good players...


I don't think PAO has any player above the superstar level like Bodiroga. TAU players are as special as PAO players...

HABIBI
11-29-2006, 12:38 AM
What??? all the european championships in club competitions???I think none of your players won a title in european club competitions ...im not 100% but..What is TAU? if i remember well is the team that beated you at playoffs last year inat your home...Hm to compare players one 2 one is not the best way to compare teams . Im with TAU;)

HABIBI
11-29-2006, 01:06 AM
Guys why Delk is better than Erdogan?ok they dont play in the same position but what can offer each in his team ?What about Peker and Tomasevic these teams are deferent .All these players are very good.But what they can do in a game that we call it here in Greece "Your death for my life"?Does PAO has any player that Obradovic can trust?How their frontline would play against guys like Peker Splitter and Scola ?How about the guards ok they have Diamantidis but the rest?All these players in both teams are very good but its only the first step they reach the "elite" of the european clubs but only one team can win the title .Ithink the knockout games are a whole different story .

FRANKY 13
11-29-2006, 02:13 AM
Well thats what I said from the beginning that both teams have great rosters.
If you see what I wrote from the beginning

The only roster i can compare it is TAUs roster which is full of stars too but TAU has 8-9 great players while PAO has 12

So I don t disagree that TAU has great players. I only reacted to BARBARIAN who actually said that 10 out of 12 players of TAU are better than PAOs:eek:

I Can agree with the comparison that turkishpower made.
But sorru prigioni better than diamantidis is too much:rolleyes:

qiangdade
11-29-2006, 03:24 AM
I disagree. The key for PAO's success, IMO, is in their coach, the great Zeljko Obradovic. I don't see PAO as a team of stars, but a well coached team of middle class players. To put it into perspective, the TAU/PAO thing is something like this: Splitter > Tsartsaris, Scola > Batiste, F. House > Siskauskas, Prigioni > Diamantidis, Erdogan > Delk, Planinic > Hatzivrettas, S.Vidal > Sakota, Rakocevic > Vujanic, Peker < Tomasevic, Teletovic < Javtokas.

I was not gonna take part in this thread as in which team has the best roster, but the comparison you made is outrageous. Not only have u compaired players in different positions but also mentioned prigioni better than diamantidis, erdogan better than delk(imagine that i hate delk!!) and rakocevic better than vujanic. Also u put unicaja in the pole and left out oly, while even le mans may have a better roster than unicaja(half joking of course). I can think of at least 3-4 teams that have a better roster than unicaja's and oly is certainly one of them (<--hardcore green fan wrighting). Calling pao a team of middle class players is the joke of the year...

qiangdade
11-29-2006, 03:39 AM
splitter=center, tsartsaris=PF
scola center, batiste PF
house and siska both suck this season( but i would pick siska any day of the week)
planinic combo guard, more of a play maker, hatzivrettas defender sg in pao
vidal, sakota both unimportant
rakocevic, vujanic= vujanic is better when healthy
tomasevic better than peker due to experience
javtokas better than teletovic ( though the comparison does not stand javtokas being a center and teletovic a PF)
diamantidis (definatelly) better than prigioni
delk SG( sucks), erdogan SF sucks(so far)

how can u make comparisons like this????:confused: :confused:

I guess some people would compare hatzivrettas to scola to make their point...

Victorious
11-29-2006, 03:51 AM
The spanish friends are used to the TAU players in the spanish league so they think they are better.

Personally, I think PAO is a more quality team.
Obradovic always buys players to obtain the best chemistry in a team. Greek basketball and the Greek NT in general is all about high basketball IQ. Tsartsaris or Chatzivrettas might not look like superstars but they know their role in their team and they are hard workers. I remember how they showed Splitter &co all corners of the court when they played Brazil at the WC.

As for Javtokas. He might be one of the best centers in Europe, but he doesn't get any playing time unless he learns how to be part of an efficient basketball team.

If Splitter would play at PAO, he wouldn't get more than 5 minutes of playing time. Siskauskas was the most important player at Benetton last year, yet he also struggles for playing time.

BTW where is Dikoudis and Becirovic on your comparison lists. :cool:

FRANKY 13
11-29-2006, 04:16 AM
Yeah and now that victorious mentionned it...

I knew something was missing but couldn t know what:confused:

Why didn t you mention dikoudis, becirovic and alvertis(yes he doesn t play a lot but has more experience than the whole team o TAU)?

Maybe because it is more conveniant to compare 9 players just because TAU has only 9 good players and not 13

rchos7
11-29-2006, 07:01 AM
i think that pao has a better roster than tau for all the reasons pao fans said except one!
sorry my panathinaikos friends but alvertis is not a basketball player any more!

Levenspiel
11-29-2006, 09:09 AM
and Unicaja is not there. No way. I'm just judging by the EL games, and they have never been there (for as many years as I remember)

Remember Sammy Jankis...

# Group C TG W L P+ P-
1 Unicaja 14 12 2 1100 1015
2 Panathinaikos 14 12 2 1219 1063
3 CSKA Moscow 14 10 4 1116 950
4 Real Madrid 14 7 7 1012 1004
5 Ulker 14 5 9 1000 1055
6 Montepaschi 14 4 10 1001 1055
7 Pau-Orthez 14 4 10 971 1103
8 Partizan 14 2 12 978 1152

No way, man. That's a single-time achievement for a mediocre EL team, and it's only the preliminary group phase, which has practically "little" importance. They sucked in top8, and that was their best result so far.

wardjdim
11-29-2006, 09:20 AM
Tau has the best roster, followed by Panathinaikos, CSKA, Barcelona and maybe Olympiakos.

EDIT:
I believe that the player by player comparisons are not applicable in Euro ball imo. I would make a position by position comparison.
Guard: Diamantidis, Hatzivretas, Becirovic, Delk, Vujanic < Planinic, Prigioni, Rakocevic, Erdogan
Forward: Siskauskas, Tsartsaris, Sakota, Batiste, Dikoudis > House, Scola, Teletovic, Vidal
Center: Tomasevic, Javtokas < Splitter, Peker

I m going with Tau and all this comparison has to do with the season so far.

Victorious
11-29-2006, 10:52 AM
Tau has the best roster, followed by Panathinaikos, CSKA, Barcelona and maybe Olympiakos.

EDIT:
I believe that the player by player comparisons are not applicable in Euro ball imo. I would make a position by position comparison.
Guard: Diamantidis, Hatzivretas, Becirovic, Delk, Vujanic < Planinic, Prigioni, Rakocevic, Erdogan
Forward: Siskauskas, Tsartsaris, Sakota, Batiste, Dikoudis > House, Scola, Teletovic, Vidal
Center: Tomasevic, Javtokas < Splitter, Peker

I m going with Tau and all this comparison has to do with the season so far.

I don't agree with the first one:
Diamantidis, Hatzivretas, Becirovic, Delk, Vujanic = Planinic, Prigioni, Rakocevic, Erdogan (because Pao is deeper)

Oh, and by the way Obradovic > Perasovic

coaches are part of the roster too!:)

CG
11-29-2006, 12:41 PM
You must be kidding man:eek:
Ok scola is better than batist no question about that
Splitter better than tsartsaris ok too.
Planinic better than chatwivrettas? Yes
Peker than tomasevic? I give you that one too

BUT NO WAY
prigioni better than diamantidis HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA
You make me lough dude seriously.
House better than siska:eek:
Eedogann better than delk? Blasphemy
rakosevic better than Vujanic? Yes right now , but if milos comes back after 2 months as he was 2 years ago he s way better.

What have TAUs palyers done in order to be considered as stars? PAOs players have all of them world championships, european championships, euroleagues...TAUs players:if it wasn tscola they wouldn thave ANYTHING

Splitter better than Tsartsaris?:)are you kidding me?And Peker?No way.All these players are european champions and finalist WC and the other is nothing special

CG
11-29-2006, 12:47 PM
TAU has 9(maybe...) good players.You cant tell that are better than PAO roster when PAO is leaving outside of their roster Papanikolaou Vujanic and Javtokas dont play some time.Or you cant say that are better when they lost by 18 from OLY and after 3 days PAO beat them in their arena.
The time will tell about TAU.Their roster is really good but not the best.

qiangdade
11-29-2006, 01:26 PM
TAU has 9(maybe...) good players.You cant tell that are better than PAO roster when PAO is leaving outside of their roster Papanikolaou Vujanic and Javtokas dont play some time.Or you cant say that are better when they lost by 18 from OLY and after 3 days PAO beat them in their arena.
The time will tell about TAU.Their roster is really good but not the best.


the topic is who has a better roster, not a better team, so who beat whom is irrelevant.
Tau has 5 superstars (scola, splitter, prigioni, planinic, rakocevic), 3 good players (peker, erdogan, house) teletovic and vidal
PAO has 4 superstars(batiste, diamantidis, vujanic, delk), 7 good players (becirovic, hatzivrettas, siskauskas, tsartsaris, dikoudis, tomacevic, javtokas), and then sakota and papanikolaou.
So there u have it: 8 players for tau, 11 for pao. Pao's roster is more complete so i give a small advantage to pao rosterwise.

T.W.Is.M.
11-29-2006, 03:45 PM
with 29 people to have voted we have 9 votes for PAO, 8 for "other" and 7 for Tau.Since there are some who say that another team has a better roster, shouldn't they write who is that "other" team?Perhaps we have a third candidate for the best roster...

CreEkShooT
11-29-2006, 03:53 PM
and as far as i understand thats oly:p....???

The Barbarian
11-29-2006, 04:11 PM
But sorru prigioni better than diamantidis is too much:rolleyes:

I'm afraid the guy who made the All-Euroleague team doesn't share your opinion, Franky.

FRANKY 13
11-29-2006, 04:29 PM
Yeah but twice best defender of the euroleague, once nominated in the best five of the european championship, plus european chapion and vice world champion in one year don t you think it s better?

The Barbarian
11-29-2006, 04:50 PM
The spanish friends are used to the TAU players in the spanish league so they think they are better.

Personally, I think that the impossibility of watching both the ACB and the Euroleague hinders you and the others from seeing the big picture, leading to these... distorted views.
you know, these strange theories where Panathinaikos is a collection of demigods and Unicaja just a bunch of nobodies... where Becirovic is a world class superstar... etcetera

turkishpower
11-29-2006, 06:30 PM
Splitter better than Tsartsaris?:)are you kidding me?And Peker?No way.All these players are european champions and finalist WC and the other is nothing special

Believe me Greece would still be the Euro Champs even Tsartsaris were not to play. Tsartsaris being in a team who won the EuroBasket doesn't change anything. He sucks, Splitter is even better now even though he is very young. And also, Peker is not any worse than Tomasevic now. Tomasevic is old, he used to be a lot better when he was young...


Splitter >>>> Tsartsaris
Peker >>>> Tsartsaris

CreEkShooT
11-29-2006, 07:16 PM
Guys are u going to start an ant-tsartsaris forum?:p?well he isnt a scoring leader and yes he isnt the player that can play attractive basketball but only the fact that obradovic trusts him means a lot ,apart from these he plays good D he is a good 3p shooter and a average rebounder, what else do u want from a 10 mins player???

HABIBI
11-29-2006, 11:56 PM
with 29 people to have voted we have 9 votes for PAO, 8 for "other" and 7 for Tau.Since there are some who say that another team has a better roster, shouldn't they write who is that "other" team?Perhaps we have a third candidate for the best roster...
hahaha how many of them are PAOs fans?Ithink some of you voted an other team :D

Victorious
11-30-2006, 06:17 AM
Personally, I think that the impossibility of watching both the ACB and the Euroleague hinders you and the others from seeing the big picture, leading to these... distorted views.
you know, these strange theories where Panathinaikos is a collection of demigods and Unicaja just a bunch of nobodies... where Becirovic is a world class superstar... etcetera

Nobody is saying anything about demi-gods. We are comparing individual players. So far we claim that Pao has a better roster because they are deeper (at least that was my point).

You on the other hand claim that Prigioni is better than Diamantidis.

For your information. Pao atm has not even nearly reached the level it had last year. The team makes a lot of mistakes. There is no offensive rhythim. Players are not used to each other and the guards (so far) have done a lousy job. Yet they seem to be winning games quite easily. They are the only unbeaten team in the Euroleague and are leading in the Greek league.

Believe me when I tell you that these results are mainly because of Dimitris Diamantidis. He is the only person who is holding this team together. I can think of at least three or four games this season where the team would have certainly lost if it wasn't for him.

The same can be said for the succes of the Greek NT. I know many non-Greeks favour Papaloukas, but Diamantidis is the true core of the team. Papaloukas only played excelent at some important games like the Euro final and the game vs team USA.

With all respect to Prigioni who is an excellent player. I sincerely don't think that he is a better player than '3D' (as the americans call him).

The Barbarian
12-03-2006, 01:39 PM
With all respect to Prigioni who is an excellent player. I sincerely don't think that he is a better player than '3D' (as the americans call him).

I thought they called him "this greek guy with number 13 printed on his shirt"...:)

It's cool Diamantidis is important for PAO. But Prigioni shoots better, pass better, and overall makes things better, it's true Diamantidis has huge arms and makes a lot of steals, but Prigioni is not preciseley armless, my friend.

But now that you mention last season, I have a question for you and the rest of hardcore PAO fans: after having lost during the offseason your two best players (Lakovic and Spanoulis) Do you think this team is better or worse than last year's?

qiangdade
12-03-2006, 02:04 PM
I thought they called him "this greek guy with number 13 printed on his shirt"...:)

It's cool Diamantidis is important for PAO. But Prigioni shoots better, pass better, and overall makes things better, it's true Diamantidis has huge arms and makes a lot of steals, but Prigioni is not preciseley armless, my friend.

But now that you mention last season, I have a question for you and the rest of hardcore PAO fans: after having lost during the offseason your two best players (Lakovic and Spanoulis) Do you think this team is better or worse than last year's?

spanoulis and lakovic were our best players???? Best scorers maybe but noway best players.

The claim that prigioni does things better is your own opinion. But because u r using categories to compare lets take a look at the stats:

diamantidis: 10.5 points(2p 52%, 3p 57%), 5 rebs, 3,7 assists, 3 steals, 3 to's, 3,8 fouls received
prigioni: 6,3 points(2p 100% but only 6 attempts, 3p 36,4%), 1,3 rebs, 4,3 assists, 2,7 steals, 2,2 to's, 0,8 fouls received

So diamantidis scores more, shoots better, grabs way more rebounds, has more steals and receives way more fouls.
Prigioni has slight advantage in assists and less turnovers.

Do i need to comment more?

T.W.Is.M.
12-03-2006, 02:15 PM
and to add to what qiangdade was trying to say(although I'm not a PAO fan) Prigioni was a backup for Pepe Sanchez in the argentinian NT while Diamantidis was a starter with the most minutes in the greek NT, so wouldn't it b more suitable to compare Diamantidis with Sanchez?

Picek
12-03-2006, 04:04 PM
Oh, and by the way Obradovic > Perasovic

coaches are part of the roster too!:)he didn't prove that last year ;)

Picek
12-03-2006, 04:10 PM
PAO has 4 superstars(batiste, diamantidis, vujanic, delk), e.:D :D
you are kidding right?
what did he do for Pao to prove he is a superstar?
guy was a superstar few seasons back but he still needs to prove he'll be that kind of player again..

and Delk?
a superstar?
c'mmon qiangdade, just because he played in NBA doesn't make him a superstar in Europe..
what did he do for Pao to prove he is a superstar?

maybe he still needs time to prove himself as a superstar but for now he is not even close..

Picek
12-03-2006, 04:18 PM
:D :D
you are kidding right?
what did he do for Pao to prove he is a superstar?
guy was a superstar few seasons back but he still needs to prove he'll be that kind of player again..
.
and don't get me wrong...
I hope he'll be Vujanić from Climamio..
'cause I loved watching him play..

qiangdade
12-03-2006, 04:21 PM
:D :D
you are kidding right?
what did he do for Pao to prove he is a superstar?
guy was a superstar few seasons back but he still needs to prove he'll be that kind of player again..

and Delk?
a superstar?
c'mmon qiangdade, just because he played in NBA doesn't make him a superstar in Europe..
what did he do for Pao to prove he is a superstar?

maybe he still needs time to prove himself as a superstar but for now he is not even close..

I didn't use superstar as in how they play this season, but as in how famous they are. If that was the case, rakocevic, prigioni and splitter shouldn't be superstars for tau also. My point remains the same anyway: 8 players for tau, 11 for pao

The Barbarian
12-03-2006, 05:57 PM
how can u make comparisons like this????:confused: :confused:

It was just orientative, G, This is not a mathematical research.

Is it subjective? Everything is subjective. But just because some things are of difficult measurement, doesn’t mean they are not perceptible by ordinary observers. Some things are naturally acknowledged, we don’t need an anthropological research to figure out who is better than whom.

On the statistics, even if both players stayed on court the same amount of time (Diamantidis plays like ten minutes more) numbers would still mean nothing.

Cause for each team, there is only one ball to be shot at a time, only one ball to be rebounded at a time and only one ball to be stolen at a time. So if Scola grabs a rebound, there is no rebound to be taken by Prigioni and If House steals the ball, there is no ball to be stolen by Prigioni. (I don’t know if I’m making myself understood)

Anyhow, Diamantidis has played fairly well this whole…er… six games, Last season Diamantidis had a total of 66 assists. Prigioni had about 166. But like I said, numbers mean nothing, is having seen both players in action what makes me say that Prigioni is the better player.
You disagree? Fair enough. That’s why forums exist, don’t you think?

The Barbarian
12-03-2006, 06:00 PM
spanoulis and lakovic were our best players???? Best scorers maybe but noway best players.
that's a pretty bold statement, eh?

The Barbarian
12-03-2006, 06:03 PM
and to add to what qiangdade was trying to say(although I'm not a PAO fan) Prigioni was a backup for Pepe Sanchez in the argentinian NT while Diamantidis was a starter with the most minutes in the greek NT, so wouldn't it b more suitable to compare Diamantidis with Sanchez?

Pepe Sánchez is a great point guard, just in case you meant otherwise.

The Barbarian
12-03-2006, 08:13 PM
My point remains the same anyway: 8 players for tau, 11 for pao Well you can rate all PAO players as good players if you want, but It's the same for TAU players.

Sergi Vidal is a player you probably never heard about, but he is very good, he has everything… great defender… has range… fast as hell… nice vertical… to sum it up: he is the kind of player that, if he played in Panathinaikos, you would say he’s a star.

Sergi Vidal is a very good player and this is non-negotiable.

I just had to say it.

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 12:15 AM
Do you know that the 15th player of PAO, papanikolaou is a euroleague champion, european champion(junior national team) with the national team, greek cahmpionship winner and also first scorer of the greek championship(while in makedonikos).
THAT S WHATS MAKE OF EVERY PLAYER OF PAO A STAR. his PERFORMANCES or his TITLES( a word that 90 percent of the TAU players ignore°

Can you say the same about sergi vIdal...Sergi who?:cool:

When we say that PAO has great bench players , we support it with facts , it s not our personnal opinion.
So now I wait to support your opinion about vidal with facts not with personnal subjective opinions.

What are the achievments of vidal that make him so great?

rchos7
12-04-2006, 12:24 AM
Do you know that the 15th player of PAO, papanikolaou is a euroleague champion, european champion(junior national team) with the national team, greek cahmpionship winner and also first scorer of the greek championship(while in makedonikos).

he is not a european champion with the junior NT.he is a world champion with the junior NT.

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 12:35 AM
he is not a european champion with the junior NT.he is a world champion with the junior NT.

Yep sorry he s both. European AND world champion as he was european in 93 with the cadets and World cahmpion in 95 with the junior men. sorry:D

qiangdade
12-04-2006, 01:56 AM
It was just orientative, G, This is not a mathematical research.

Is it subjective? Everything is subjective. But just because some things are of difficult measurement, doesn’t mean they are not perceptible by ordinary observers. Some things are naturally acknowledged, we don’t need an anthropological research to figure out who is better than whom.

On the statistics, even if both players stayed on court the same amount of time (Diamantidis plays like ten minutes more) numbers would still mean nothing.

Cause for each team, there is only one ball to be shot at a time, only one ball to be rebounded at a time and only one ball to be stolen at a time. So if Scola grabs a rebound, there is no rebound to be taken by Prigioni and If House steals the ball, there is no ball to be stolen by Prigioni. (I don’t know if I’m making myself understood)

Anyhow, Diamantidis has played fairly well this whole…er… six games, Last season Diamantidis had a total of 66 assists. Prigioni had about 166. But like I said, numbers mean nothing, is having seen both players in action what makes me say that Prigioni is the better player.
You disagree? Fair enough. That’s why forums exist, don’t you think?


The reason i posted statistics is cause u said that prigioni shoots and passes better etc, and it sounded like a statistic comparison. Normally i never use statistics to compaire players, unless of course a player plays in a top euroleague team and has like 30 points, 15 rebounds, 10 assists, 5 steals etc.

Prigioni this year has the role of diamantidis last year and vice versa.

Anyway i am not saying that diam is better cause i'm a pao fan. I would claim the same were i an oly fan. I have expressed my dislike for some pao players repeatedly


that's a pretty bold statement, eh?

Not bolder than to say that they were pao's best players

qiangdade
12-04-2006, 02:04 AM
Well you can rate all PAO players as good players if you want, but It's the same for TAU players.

Sergi Vidal is a player you probably never heard about, but he is very good, he has everything… great defender… has range… fast as hell… nice vertical… to sum it up: he is the kind of player that, if he played in Panathinaikos, you would say he’s a star.

Sergi Vidal is a very good player and this is non-negotiable.

I just had to say it.

Why are you under the impression that i have no idea about who vidal is or other players of the spanish league??? Do you think i don't follow it? You wanna see my collection of euroleague or acb games? I download each and every game i can find. Sergi vidal is in the level of xanthopoulos or papanikolaou at best and he wouldn't even be a star in a mediocre greek team. You sound like you are a bball guru, overlooking all the rest of ignorant tiny people, and that is completely childish. I think u overrate spanish teams and players that play in spanish league. Anyway, i am off this ridiculous discussion - i've had enough.

Picek
12-04-2006, 07:33 AM
Do you know that the 15th player of PAO, papanikolaou is a euroleague champion, european champion(junior national team) with the national team, greek cahmpionship winner and also first scorer of the greek championship(while in makedonikos).
THAT S WHATS MAKE OF EVERY PLAYER OF PAO A STAR. his PERFORMANCES or his TITLES( a word that 90 percent of the TAU players ignore°

Can you say the same about sergi vIdal...Sergi who?:cool:

When we say that PAO has great bench players , we support it with facts , it s not our personnal opinion.
So now I wait to support your opinion about vidal with facts not with personnal subjective opinions.

What are the achievments of vidal that make him so great?
and where were all those Pao stars last year in the quarterfinal games against Tau?

please tell me.. where was Papanikolau then?
where were the rest of Pao "superstars" on april 23, 2006.?
so much about those trophies :rolleyes:
and that's what makes Tau a team with better players..
so I know I have a fact that can prove me right when I say that Tau is a team with "better" players..
they've proved that last year already...
simply an objective fact..
so you can put all your bullshit talk where ever you want.. :p

Picek
12-04-2006, 07:36 AM
it's simple..
in the last three euroleague seasons Tau is a way better team then Pao..

and I've got results that can prove me right...
so much about your objectivity franky :(

jaakko1
12-04-2006, 07:40 AM
Panathinaikos has the best roster. There simply is no other team in Europe that comes even close itn terms of pure talent.

Saying that Prigioni is better than Diamantidis is kinda like saying Britney Spears is smarter than Stephen Hawking.

You can always argue, but sometimes you're just totally clueless.

I'm saying all this, because I don't have any favourites. I don't even like Panathinaikos that much.

Picek
12-04-2006, 08:09 AM
Panathinaikos has the best roster. There simply is no other team in Europe that comes even close itn terms of pure talent.

Saying that Prigioni is better than Diamantidis is kinda like saying Britney Spears is smarter than Stephen Hawking.

You can always argue, but sometimes you're just totally clueless.

I'm saying all this, because I don't have any favourites. I don't even like Panathinaikos that much.
then they have a lousy coach..
'cause if you are not capable to even come to euroleague final with the team with best players in Europe, something is fishy..

or if you or any other Pao fan can explain me what's the deal with that?

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 09:15 AM
it's simple..
in the last three euroleague seasons Tau is a way better team then Pao..

and I've got results that can prove me right...
so much about your objectivity franky :(

It s nice to try to redirect the discussion to where it suits you my friend but here the topic is "which team has the best roster?" not "which is the best team?"

The time will prove who has the best team but as far as the roster is concerned the titles of the players are the most important fact. And the fact is that the PAOs players have arround 70 titles all together while taus players have around 10.

So please try to learn how to read and understand a topic and then bring your bullshit in the discussion.:cool:

Ps: Oh and you still didn t answer about vidals achievments.

But I guess the silence is an answer on its own.

I guess that his titles and personnal awards are so many that you need an entire day in order to post them:p

PS2: And if you still want to try to find out the best team and are interested to results, you can look about that team that has the best record in the current EL.
It may help you.

Victorious
12-04-2006, 09:44 AM
it's simple..
in the last three euroleague seasons Tau is a way better team then Pao..

and I've got results that can prove me right...
so much about your objectivity franky :(

Way better is an overstatement. Two seasons ago, they were both at the final 4, while last year the fait between the two was decided in game 3. Allthough I am not looking for excuses and I will accept the fact that Tau has reached higher the last three seasons I am not sure that last years TAU was better than Pao's team.

We all know that there was some crisis at Pao during that stage. They were struggling in the Greek league and were loosing in the Euroleague. Besides, the third game between PAO and TAU was played exactly 2 days after PAO played a hard derby against rivals Olympiakos.

Picek
12-04-2006, 10:34 AM
It s nice to try to redirect the discussion to where it suits you my friend but here the topic is "which team has the best roster?" not "which is the best team?"

The time will prove who has the best team but as far as the roster is concerned the titles of the players are the most important fact. And the fact is that the PAOs players have arround 70 titles all together while taus players have around 10.
lol, what are you? 12?
but o.k.
now, let's see..
Scola and Prigioni...
olympic gold medalists...
something Diamantidis and co can only dream about..

name me one player from Pao who won an Olympic gold medal?

I need only one name..




Ps: Oh and you still didn t answer about vidals achievments.I haven't said anything about him..





PS2: And if you still want to try to find out the best team and are interested to results, you can look about that team that has the best record in the current EL.
It may help you.lol :D
now I know you are 12..

and I'm still waiting for that name..

Picek
12-04-2006, 10:40 AM
We all know that there was some crisis at Pao during that stage. They were struggling in the Greek league and were loosing in the Euroleague. Besides, the third game between PAO and TAU was played exactly 2 days after PAO played a hard derby against rivals Olympiakos.
but If you have roster with best players in Europe and with 12 great players how come they were all in crisis?
and you are trying to prove just that.. that Pao is team with best players on their roster...
with all due respect to Pao but playing a derby few days before is not an excuse..
I would rate a spanish league as a bit tougher league then greek league..
Pao plays only few strong games in the season in the domestic league, most of them are against Oly and maybe Aris..
while Tau on the other hand needs to play against Unicaja, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Joventut, Girona etc.

final countdown
12-04-2006, 12:40 PM
but If you have roster with best players in Europe and with 12 great players how come they were all in crisis?
and you are trying to prove just that.. that Pao is team with best players on their roster...
with all due respect to Pao but playing a derby few days before is not an excuse..
I would rate a spanish league as a bit tougher league then greek league..
Pao plays only few strong games in the season in the domestic league, most of them are against Oly and maybe Aris..
while Tau on the other hand needs to play against Unicaja, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Joventut, Girona etc.

It is funny to see a croatian to be so venomous to a team where many of croatian bball legends have played (even Drazen signed there).

1.As for the PAO - Tau dilemma i say let's wait and see. Don't forget that there r also great teams like CSKA for example.....

2.As for the olympic gold, many great players didn't get it but still remain greater than Scola and Prigioni....

c_fish
12-04-2006, 01:47 PM
Medals dont quite tell if you're a good player;this is a team sport so it depends on the role of the player in the team.Scola deserves to be proud of a Olympic gold medal,but Prigioni:rolleyes: Not to mention that basically they both own it to Ginobilli.How many european friends here know the Euroleague champion Myriounis?

Is there anybody who believes that Tau could eliminate Pao last year if those 3 games were played in the beginning of the season?Nomatter how many good players you have it is 100% sure that a team will have highs and lows during the season.

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 03:31 PM
lol, what are you? 12?
but o.k.
now, let's see..
Scola and Prigioni...
olympic gold medalists...
something Diamantidis and co can only dream about..

name me one player from Pao who won an Olympic gold medal?

I need only one name..



Lol and here s the point that I m definitely sure that you don t know how to read.

I m talking about ROSTER YOU KNOW. Can you get that? Nobody denies that scola is perhaps the best player in europe right now. and that PAO doesn t have such a player.

But A team has twelve players. You didn t answer me about the trophees of the eleven others. And the fact that even one of our players has more trophees than TAUs players all together still remains.

One last thing. Do you really thing that one(1) gold medal in the olympics is better than 3 gold medals in european championchips and 2 gold medals in world championships?
Who said that the olympics are more important than the WC anyway.

Oh and I ll give you one clue. Those trophees I just mentionned are not the trophees of a whole team but the trophees of one single player. I m sure you will find the name one your own.

Oh and as I try to respond to the questions of others, Yes no player or coach of pao has won a gold medal in the olympics. Now try please to respond to me as well in the remarks I made and not by redirecting the conversation.

EverGreen
12-04-2006, 03:39 PM
Let's just win this fecker this year so Picek can shut up :D

Truth be told, it don't really matter what you do or how good you are in theregular season but what history writes in the end. Who wins the trophy That's the only person history really remembers.

Why didn'T PAO go to the F-4 last year? Because at the moment in time when we played TAU were a little better. That's why. We beat CSKA both home and away in the reg. season but they won the EL. This mean our wins against them meant nothing at the end for us. They also meant nothing to CSKA.

We were good but TAU out edged us..Scola in Vitoria and Erdogan in Athens.

We can all sit back in hidsight and blame Obradovic for this and that but it's high level sport between 2 teams that were pretty equal. 2 shots were the differance. Prigioni making it and Alvertis missing it. On another occasion Prigioni would have missed and Alvertis scored (as he has made both clutch and buzzer beaters in the past).

IMO we lost because we could stop Scola in the 1st 2 games and when we decided concntrate on him in the 3rd game, he fed the perimeter and we were punished there for double- teaming him.

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 03:41 PM
Trophees zon by members of the pao team

9 euroleagues
9 european championships
4 world championships






































SILENCE IS GOLD














JUST RESPECT:eek:

NOW I M WAINTING FOR A ANSWER.
SO GO AND FIND THE TITLES OF THE TAU STUFF

MAKE MY DAY. I M WAITING

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 03:45 PM
Let's just win this fecker this year so Picek can shut up :D


No need to win anything evergreen.
PAO has already proven what he had to prove.
PAO Has 100 years of history. Not like some other teams who where playing in the 8th division 10 years ago:rolleyes:

EverGreen
12-04-2006, 04:13 PM
No need to win anything evergreen.
PAO has already proven what he had to prove.
PAO Has 100 years of history. Not like some other teams who where playing in the 8th division 10 years ago:rolleyes:

History, is just our heritage and the thing that makes us as big as we are. But, we live for tomorrow.

Alvertis is the lone player in the 3 European Cup winning sides, the players we have now are nothing with PAO until the win an EL.

Joško Poljak Fan
12-04-2006, 04:18 PM
arguing about which team has the best lineup is pointless...
trophies they've won in the past are tottally pointless when it comes to what these players mean right now...
it's pointless to compare players like Diama and Prigioni...
the same for the medals won with national teams and junior teams...

in the end one team will win just because they've had a better day and things went right for them, so alltogether it's pointless;)

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 04:31 PM
History, is just our heritage and the thing that makes us as big as we are. But, we live for tomorrow.

Alvertis is the lone player in the 3 European Cup winning sides, the players we have now are nothing with PAO until the win an EL.

Well of course this players haven t won anything with PAO since only 5 players out of 13 play for PAO for more than 2 years. But we can t just forget about siskas or vujanics history just because they are newcommers.

Anyway I agree with Matiz. I was from the beginning the first one who actually claimed that TAU has a great roster and that it was the team that can be compared to PAO(this doesn t mean of course that CSKA or Barca... don t have good roster too).

I just claimed that PAO has a deeper roster and that Diamantidis is better than prigioni , but I thnig that we actually nearly all agree to those points so I guess I don t need to bother about some exceptions who disagree just in order to feel important.

final countdown
12-04-2006, 04:35 PM
lol, what are you? 12?
but o.k.
now, let's see..
Scola and Prigioni...
olympic gold medalists...
something Diamantidis and co can only dream about..
name me one player from Pao who won an Olympic gold medal?
I need only one name..

My friend, your hate about PAO and Diamantidis mislead u...
If winning an olympic gold medal is the only criteria for a player,
Drazen and Radja are worse players than Prigioni and Scola :eek: :eek:

turkishpower
12-04-2006, 04:52 PM
My friend, your hate about PAO and Diamantidis mislead u...
If winning an olympic gold medal is the only criteria for a player,
Drazen and Radja are worse players than Prigioni and Scola :eek: :eek:



well that's what Greeks said. They said Diamantidis, Tsartsaris etc.. all are Euro Champs. Greeks said they are better because they achieved more.
So, the guy is saying Scola and Prigioni won a olympic gold medal. They are just telling that their players have achieved something too. Also, don't overrate Diamantidis. You guys are just trying to bring Diamantidis to Bodiroga-Petrovic level. Right now, I doubt I would even take Diamantidis over Scola :confused:

EverGreen
12-04-2006, 05:04 PM
Right now, I doubt I would even take Diamantidis over Scola :confused:

That's depends if you are looking for a point guard or a Centre. Truth is though. Diamantidis is PAO's most important player. The team is now firmly been built around him. At TAU Scola is equally important since the team is built around him.

Prigioni is not a player you can build a team around because he lacks in offence. Prigionis shots are when he is open or on the fast break. Diamantidis will drive to the basket and also shoot with pressure. Prigioni's main priority ias to feed the player in the paint whilst defensively he is nowhere near Diamantidis. Diamantidis can completely neutraulise a player. Prigioni isn't that good at that.

If you see the players stats this year so far, Diamantidis is superior overall in scoring, rebs, assists, fouls received...

Picek
12-04-2006, 05:24 PM
My friend, your hate about PAO and Diamantidis mislead u...
If winning an olympic gold medal is the only criteria for a player,
Drazen and Radja are worse players than Prigioni and Scola :eek: :eek:dear final countdown...
please read the whole discussion with that ---- (no personal insults please), maybe then you can figure it out..
'cause according to him winning medals in the past is the thing that makes you the best european player at the moment.. :rolleyes:

when an ---- drags you to his level you've got to talk on his level in order for him to understand what you are saying..
and I did just that..
ofcourse that means I'm also an idiot but hey... what the hell :D

oh and btw I don't hate Pao..
I just hate the fact that every Pao fan here on this forum thinks that their team is god given and that they will win it all this year without any problem..
which is nonsense..
we all saw what happened last year and still everyone of you will say it was a bad day or the team was tired or the food was bad or anything else but the simple obvious fact that there are better teams then Pao in Europe at the moment..
but saying that to Pao fans is like saying it to the wall :rolleyes:

Maccabi played their third euroleague final in the row last year which is something Pao never did (I think :o ) and still according to all of you Pao was a better team.. :confused:

Trifilli
12-04-2006, 06:03 PM
Maccabi played their third euroleague final in the row last year which is something Pao never did (I think :o ) and still according to all of you Pao was a better team.. :confused:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

2000 in Thessaloniki: Panathinaikos - Maccabi Tel Aviv 73:67
2001 in Paris: Maccabi Tel Aviv - Panathinaikos 81:67
2002 in Bologna: Kinder Bologna - Panathinaikos 83:89

FRANKY 13
12-04-2006, 06:39 PM
Well Picek go back to the previous posts , read what we both wrote and find out where I insulted you.

Your the one who started calling me a 12 year old and your the one who started saying that I say bullshits just because I didn t agree with you.

So sorry man but you re once again wrong.

But doesn t matter. The impression I get from you is that your whole life turns about basketball and showing to the others how much knowlegde you(don t ) have and trying to impose your point of view.
Never mind it happens that I have more important things to do than basketball and especially than chating with a looser through the net.
Get a life and then talk.

End of discussion. Likely for me I write in this forum for 5 years now and I think I don t have anything to prove about my level.;)
On the other hand others who write for only 3-4 months should be more careful.

T.W.Is.M.
12-04-2006, 07:50 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

2000 in Thessaloniki: Panathinaikos - Maccabi Tel Aviv 73:67
2001 in Paris: Maccabi Tel Aviv - Panathinaikos 81:67
2002 in Bologna: Kinder Bologna - Panathinaikos 83:89


Sorry but the 2001 final was a SupProLeague final not a Euroleague one.ULEB recognizes as a european champion the Euroleague Champion 4 that year(and I'm referring 2 ULEB because they r the organizers of the eurolague until now...)

EverGreen
12-05-2006, 12:14 AM
Sorry but the 2001 final was a SupProLeague final not a Euroleague one.ULEB recognizes as a european champion the Euroleague Champion 4 that year(and I'm referring 2 ULEB because they r the organizers of the eurolague until now...)

True but 3 of the 4 teams in the Fiba Competition were in the Final-4 the season before when everyone was united. The finalists ofcourse were the same finalists the season before.

Trifilli
12-05-2006, 08:52 AM
Sorry but the 2001 final was a SupProLeague final not a Euroleague one.ULEB recognizes as a european champion the Euroleague Champion 4 that year(and I'm referring 2 ULEB because they r the organizers of the eurolague until now...)

1. It doesn't matter if it was Euroleague or Suproleague, these were three finals in a row and Suproleague wasn't worth less than Euroleague. We're talking about a competition with teams like Maccabi, PAO, CSKA, Efes, Montepaschi here.
Trying to say now that ULEB didn't recognize Suproleague and it therefore doesn't count is just nitpicking.
2. Check here (http://217.13.116.51/finalfour06/noticia.jsp?temporada=E01&jornada=21&id=18) to see that ULEB lists two champions for 2001.

The Barbarian
12-05-2006, 04:05 PM
Why are you under the impression that i have no idea about who vidal is or other players of the spanish league??? Do you think i don't follow it?

I'm totally sure.

cendor
12-13-2006, 07:10 PM
CSKA, PAO and Barca have the best rosters.


I concure.

boki
12-14-2006, 03:03 PM
CSKA, PAO and TAU have the best rosters IMO.

jaakko1
12-14-2006, 05:18 PM
Barca's frontcourt is mediocre at best. They have the best guards, but get almost no production underneath the basket. Navarro is the best player in EL, but I still don't like Barca that much.

a.i.
12-14-2006, 05:44 PM
Kasun will have more impact and Barca definitely needs it since they are having problems underneath the basket.

He is capable of it, he "only" has to stop commiting silly fouls and focus on playing the game.

But imo, with him, Marconato and Vasquez they are above the EL-average.

CreEkShooT
12-15-2006, 08:48 AM
well picek after all u are the real spammer:p

wardjdim
12-15-2006, 09:50 AM
One conclusion:
Every time there is either the slightest discussion that ...might concern a Greek team, there are many many posts from Greek (green, red or yellow, it doesn't really matter ;)) posters trying to defend their team's history, current roster, past success etc.
Panathinaikos is a great team, the only undefeated one in Euroleague so far. The result says a lot, so stop arguing all the time about the team's value in the thread concerning rosters (the U.S. teams always have the best rosters, isn't that true?). It is getting really pointless...

HABIBI
12-15-2006, 11:28 AM
offcourse PAO has the best team in euroleague ..i think they have the best team in the world:D L ets give the trophy now because they gonna win it for sure:D I wondering how PAOs fans thinking...First of all how are you so sure that this team is better than last year?For example how are you sure that Javtokas is better than Femerling?I think selecting players like him is a little gambling...you know what i mean...

adebisi
12-15-2006, 02:15 PM
I think selecting players like him is a little gambling...you know what i mean...
Sorry but I don't... Elaborate your point please ;)

final countdown
12-17-2006, 12:49 PM
I've just read the whole thread one more time and i realized (again) how pointless is to compare rosters..Guys the rosters don't play bball, is the teams that play and win trophies.
And in order to make my point i would recall a classic example..
If someone was checking the roster of Oly and Panionios some years ago, there was a name there (Papaloukas) and that player was kicked out from both teams (with the unforgettable statement of his coach then that Papaloukas would never play top level bball-btw i wonder where this coach is now). The same player went to a better team (CSKA) and became a superstar...
What i'm trying to say is that when u read a roster in a newspaper or in a web page u can get impressed/dissapointed by a name written there, BUT the same name could play bad/great or could fit well/bad with his teammates when in the court....
Perhaps a more useful question would be "which team has the DEEPEST ROSTER in the EL" (meaning which team can cover better possible injuries during a long season).

T.W.Is.M.
12-17-2006, 01:07 PM
(with the unforgettable statement of his coach then that Papaloukas would never play top level bball-btw i wonder where this coach is now)

If his coach then was who I assume he was, he just got fired from Jezi in the italian Lega B:p

elaj
12-17-2006, 01:25 PM
If his coach then was who I assume he was, he just got fired from Jezi in the italian Lega B:p
Yeah, that was Subotic I assume, now he took over Split. :D :D :D

HABIBI
12-18-2006, 01:47 PM
final are you serious?and how Papaloukas moved to olympiakos?Everyone knew that he would be a great player!offcourse he was very young and they should wait for a while...

final countdown
12-18-2006, 06:12 PM
final are you serious?and how Papaloukas moved to olympiakos?Everyone knew that he would be a great player!offcourse he was very young and they should wait for a while...

If everyone knew, why was Papalouk KICKED OUT like a looser?
Something doesn't fit :rolleyes:

T.W.Is.M.
12-18-2006, 06:45 PM
Papaloukas left Panionios because two bigger clubs wanted him.The he was released by Olympiacos for 2 reasons imo.Th first was the one u mentioned;his coach then didn't believe in him as he should.The second was the lowering if the budget, don't forget that other players left 4 the same reason.

qiangdade
12-18-2006, 06:50 PM
Papaloukas left Panionios because two bigger clubs wanted him.The he was released by Olympiacos for 2 reasons imo.Th first was the one u mentioned;his coach then didn't believe in him as he should.The second was the lowering if the budget, don't forget that other players left 4 the same reason.

I recall oly offering papaloukas less money for the upcoming season and when he refused he was released. Couple of days later oly inked charissis for way more money than what they had offered to papaloukas. Isn't that kinda strange?:rolleyes:

final countdown
12-18-2006, 08:29 PM
I recall oly offering papaloukas lesser money for the upcoming season and when he refused he was released. Couple of days later oly inked charissis for way more money than what they had offered to papaloukas. Isn't that kinda strange?:rolleyes:

Man i wasn't aware of this detail :eek:
Charissis instead of Papaloukas!!!
One of the biggest crimes in modern bball history :D

T.W.Is.M.
12-18-2006, 09:57 PM
I recall oly offering papaloukas lesser money for the upcoming season and when he refused he was released. Couple of days later oly inked charissis for way more money than what they had offered to papaloukas. Isn't that kinda strange?:rolleyes:

That's what I was talking about.I didn't remember that Charissis had a higher contract than Papaloukas was offered, but that doesn't change what I wrote.
Besides that, at that time Charissis was considered a rising pg while Papaloukas hadn't accomplished what some expected with Olympiacos(not saying they were right of course).Of course time proved Olympiacos was absolutely wrong, but now it's too late...

qiangdade
12-18-2006, 10:00 PM
Man i wasn't aware of this detail :eek:
Charissis instead of Papaloukas!!!
One of the biggest crimes in modern bball history :D

Charissis instead papaloukas for more money. Papaloukas was considered only slightly better than charissis back then but still everybody wondered why they let him go cause of the money, to sign charissis for even more money than the amount stated in papaloukas' original contract

final countdown
12-21-2006, 12:17 AM
I personally like Unicaja's roster. I'm a big fan of Euroleague all time leading scorer Marcus Brown. Then they have a well covered point guard spot, with Carlos Cabezas and Juan "Pepe" Sánchez. a strong presence inside, with Big Daniel Santiago, Erazem Lorbek and Carlos Jiménez. And superb swingmen in Berni Rodriguez and Jiri Welsch (keep an eye on these guys)


......

rikhardur
12-21-2006, 01:01 AM
Don't be so hard on him final countdown, Unicaja had a bad night, it can happen and happens to every team at some point.

final countdown
12-21-2006, 09:27 AM
Don't be so hard on him final countdown, Unicaja had a bad night, it can happen and happens to every team at some point.

My friend,
i didn't say ONE word, in which precise way i'm hard?

ps If i was posting the score, then i would be hard

T.W.Is.M.
12-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Don't be so hard on him final countdown, Unicaja had a bad night, it can happen and happens to every team at some point.

Every team can have a bad day
Greece had a bad day and lost 2 Spain by 23
PAO had a bad day and lost 2 Olympiada Patras
Olympiacos had a bad 2nd half(but a good 1st one) and lost 2 Efes by 18
CSKA had a bad day and lost 2 Pau Orthez
Barcelona had a bad day and lost 2 Bruesa(if I'm not wrong)
I can keep mentioning other examples like that...
But I can't find a blowout like this except 4 that Siena-Buducnost game in 2003.But then Buducnost lost next year's contract with that performance.Now Unicaja wanted 2 win this game...

rikhardur
12-21-2006, 04:45 PM
My friend,
i didn't say ONE word, in which precise way i'm hard?

ps If i was posting the score, then i would be hard
Sometimes words aren't needed :p :)


But I can't find a blowout like this except 4 that Siena-Buducnost game in 2003.But then Buducnost lost next year's contract with that performance.Now Unicaja wanted 2 win this game...
I didn't see the game, perhaps Joventut had an amazing defense, although it seems that Unicaja wasn't really on the court. You're right, if a team wants to win a game they must do everything they can to achieve that, I'm sure Greece wanted to be the champion (how could they not), but things like those can happen...

T.W.Is.M.
12-21-2006, 06:23 PM
You're right, if a team wants to win a game they must do everything they can to achieve that, I'm sure Greece wanted to be the champion (how could they not), but things like those can happen...

That's what I meant.Off nights happen.Good teams then lose by 20 or 30 points.But with 53???I recall another blowout like this, Olympiacos losing at home 2 Efes by 51 2 years ago, but Oly wasn't an EL-level team at that year(we were the worst greek team that ever played in the EL then).Yesterday's was a very strange result.I had written good words about Unicaja after I had seen them vs PAO, but now I don't consider them a top club(and without Brown they r not anything special),so I don't think they should b in the best roster poll

elaj
12-21-2006, 06:28 PM
Unicaja has very good individualists, but you can see from the plane that the coach Scariolo can't (or doesn't know how to) work with this team.

Buducnost PG
12-21-2006, 06:56 PM
Unicaja is without their best two players from last season. Garbajosa is gone and Brown injured. And Garbajosa was the leader of the team. They were very unlucky in the first 3 games in EL. And also Herman is gone. He was part of Malaga for a long time and to me looked better then Welsch. They have lost important players and the new ones aren´t playing as the Malaga managment accpected.

T.W.Is.M.
12-21-2006, 08:36 PM
I agree with u Buducnost PG in everything u say.Another side of that game is the big win of Joventut,I believe this team has shown good signs until now.They r one of the few teams I've seen in the last years 2 make a big comeback against PAO(from ~ -20 to -3 but eventually lost by 8).Obviously they had a great game yesterday maybe they can b in the quarterfinals...

HABIBI
12-22-2006, 11:31 PM
Sorry but I don't... Elaborate your point please ;)
cant you see how is playing?ok he is a good player but ..when a player moves to an other team and an other country many things changing you cant know how he will adjust in the new conditions,and offcourse when a player moves in a better team you are not sure for nothing :cool:

c_fish
12-23-2006, 12:54 AM
cant you see how is playing?ok he is a good player but ..when a player moves to an other team and an other country many things changing you cant know how he will adjust in the new conditions,and offcourse when a player moves in a better team you are not sure for nothing :cool:
OK.Teams then shouldn't do any transactions:rolleyes: .Always there is a risk but what should teams do?Wait until their players reach the age of 38 and then sign a new ones or keep trying to improve themselves?

R-bell
12-23-2006, 10:44 AM
In Europe, in order to win titles, you need to have European stars on your team. That's a rule. Americans can be very productive, but a team without one or two Euro stars wont get you the Euroleague title. That's why Olympiakios is not on that list. Penn, Domercant, Acker, Stack can win as many games as you like in the primary fase, but when the sh!t hits the fan, they will loose. Lucky for the reds, they still have Macas.:cool: Baby Shaq and Vasilopoulos are not Euro stars.

Look at the champs:

Pao: Bodiroga
Maccabi: Jasikevicious
CSKA: Papaloukas
Kinder: Ginobili (argentinians included)
Real: Sabonis
Split: Petrovic


So what are you going to say about Olympiacos of 97 with Rivers? Ok, Tarlac played a big role, but I don't think he was the reason they won it.

Zalgiris of 99? Totally a team of Edney and Bowie as the stars.

And for sure Maccabi of 01 when Parker, McDonald and Huffman where the main guys?

rikhardur
12-23-2006, 11:33 AM
Zalgiris of 99? Totally a team of Edney and Bowie as the stars.
Don't forget about Štombergas :) They wouldn't have made it without him I believe.


And for sure Maccabi of 01 when Parker, McDonald and Huffman where the main guys?
What happened to Huffman btw, has he retired or something?

R-bell
12-23-2006, 11:37 AM
Don't forget about Štombergas :) They wouldn't have made it without him I believe.


What happened to Huffman btw, has he retired or something?
I don't...but by no means Stombergas was a big European star then.

Huffman's knee is gone, and his bank account is loaded with USD. I guess this means the answer is yes.

rikhardur
12-23-2006, 12:18 PM
I don't...but by no means Stombergas was a big European star then.
My opinion is that he was actually. He carried Žalgiris to the victory the previous year in Saporta, he was a big name.


Huffman's knee is gone, and his bank account is loaded with USD. I guess this means the answer is yes.
I see :D

R-bell
12-23-2006, 10:25 PM
My opinion is that he was actually. He carried Žalgiris to the victory the previous year in Saporta, he was a big name.


This is the original list:

Pao: Bodiroga
Maccabi: Jasikevicious
CSKA: Papaloukas
Kinder: Ginobili (argentinians included)
Real: Sabonis
Split: Petrovic

Can u really put Stombergas, at ANY stage of his career (even the best days in Tau) in the same status as these guys?

Joško Poljak Fan
12-23-2006, 10:55 PM
This is the original list:

Pao: Bodiroga
Maccabi: Jasikevicious
CSKA: Papaloukas
Kinder: Ginobili (argentinians included)
Real: Sabonis
Split: Petrovic

Can u really put Stombergas, at ANY stage of his career (even the best days in Tau) in the same status as these guys?
Split had Radja and Kukoč, Dražen won two titles with Cibona... I'd also include Divac and Djordjevič in Partizan

R-bell
12-23-2006, 11:02 PM
Split had Radja and Kukoč, Dražen won two titles with Cibona... I'd also include Divac and Djordjevič in Partizan

On Split's first title in 1989 Radja and Kukoc were far from being such big stars...

Same story with Djordjevic in Partizan.

Same of course with Drazen in his first title.

Winning the title made all 4 of them stars. They were not such stars coming in to the finals, and that's the original point.

Divac never won a EL title... just played F4 and lost to Maccabi in SF.

rikhardur
12-25-2006, 07:12 PM
This is the original list:

Pao: Bodiroga
Maccabi: Jasikevicious
CSKA: Papaloukas
Kinder: Ginobili (argentinians included)
Real: Sabonis
Split: Petrovic

Can u really put Stombergas, at ANY stage of his career (even the best days in Tau) in the same status as these guys?
Surely not, that didn't even occur to me. I don't mix legends with great players ;) But by no means were Bowie and Edney way better players than Štombergas.

R-bell
12-25-2006, 08:00 PM
Read what I write:)

"Zalgiris of 99? Totally a team of Edney and Bowie as the stars.", not as the better players...

rikhardur
12-25-2006, 08:02 PM
Read what I write:)

"Zalgiris of 99? Totally a team of Edney and Bowie as the stars.", not as the better players...
I read it. And I still consider Štombergas as a star :)

R-bell
12-25-2006, 08:07 PM
Never a star of the type above, but... I guess we won't get to an agreement on that. No biggie:)

rikhardur
12-25-2006, 08:14 PM
Never a star of the type above, but... I guess we won't get to an agreement on that. No biggie:)
Lol yeah I was about to say the same. We agree to disagree then :D

C-ka
12-26-2006, 10:55 AM
If there would be Papaloukas, Stombergas should be too.

R-bell
12-26-2006, 11:34 AM
If there would be Papaloukas, Stombergas should be too.

Come on....Papaloukas came to 2005/06 as Eurobasket champion with Greek NT and if I'm not wrong the MVP of the Eurobasket 2005.

Do u really claim Stombergas was in the same status, even half of that status, in the summer of 98?!

"Who's a better player" isn't a relevant question to this debate. The point was "u need 1-2 European stars to go all the way," and Stomby, even on his best days of his career, didn't lead a team on his back to a major title or was in a close status to Sabas, Papal, Petro, Manu etc. etc.

C-ka
12-26-2006, 12:01 PM
Come on....Papaloukas came to 2005/06 as Eurobasket champion with Greek NT and if I'm not wrong the MVP of the Eurobasket 2005.

Do u really claim Stombergas was in the same status, even half of that status, in the summer of 98?!

"Who's a better player" isn't a relevant question to this debate. The point was "u need 1-2 European stars to go all the way," and Stomby, even on his best days of his career, didn't lead a team on his back to a major title or was in a close status to Sabas, Papal, Petro, Manu etc. etc.
I cross out Papal in any case from a list that includes Sabas or Petrovic. Manu - maybe, but not Papa. If you need a short resumé of what has Stombergas achieved compared to Papa I can provide you with one. ;)

R-bell
12-26-2006, 12:09 PM
I cross out Papal in any case from a list that includes Sabas or Petrovic. Manu - maybe, but not Papa. If you need a short resumé of what has Stombergas achieved compared to Papa I can provide you with one. ;)

Did he win any MVP award, or was deserved to win one as the main man of the team, in any of those achivements?

Was he BY FAR the most important player in any of those teams or at least as equally important as the "star"? If u had taken him out of that team, would that mean that team would have close to 0 chances to go all the way?

He's a great player. I would sign him in any team I build, but sorry...I don't see him as THE MAIN MAN in any team he played. Very important, big contribution, he's a winner but...

C-ka
12-27-2006, 03:16 PM
Did he win any MVP award, or was deserved to win one as the main man of the team, in any of those achivements?

Was he BY FAR the most important player in any of those teams or at least as equally important as the "star"? If u had taken him out of that team, would that mean that team would have close to 0 chances to go all the way?

He's a great player. I would sign him in any team I build, but sorry...I don't see him as THE MAIN MAN in any team he played. Very important, big contribution, he's a winner but...
Ok. First of all, neither Papal was the go-to-go in any of his teams that won something, he was a very important player though, but his teams had other "stars" as well and those were equally important to Theo (e.g. Diamantidis). It's obvious, even if you don't look to the stats.

R-bell
12-27-2006, 03:22 PM
Ok. First of all, neither Papal was the go-to-go in any of his teams that won something, he was a very important player though, but his teams had other "stars" as well and those were equally important to Theo (e.g. Diamantidis). It's obvious, even if you don't look to the stats.

It's not about who was the go-to-guy as the one who took the major shots. It's about the importance of the player to the team, but we are discussing this for 5-6 posts now, and still can't reach the equal valley, so let's just give up on that:)

C-ka
12-27-2006, 05:05 PM
It's not about who was the go-to-guy as the one who took the major shots. It's about the importance of the player to the team, but we are discussing this for 5-6 posts now, and still can't reach the equal valley, so let's just give up on that:)
Yes allright ;)
Only one more fact about the importance of a player... besides the achievement's list Stombergas has got (which is way longer that Papa's), he actually was the captain of the NT in Eurobasket 2003, where Lithuania won gold (also elected to the symbolic starting five of the tournament) as well as in the Olympics, where Lithuania trashed Greece:D AND, in both of the competitions he was by no means less important to the team than Saras, Macijauskas or Siskauskas.
And the last thing I'd like to add is that Zalgiris 98/99 was no way a two-man team.;)

HABIBI
12-27-2006, 07:29 PM
OK.Teams then shouldn't do any transactions:rolleyes: .Always there is a risk but what should teams do?Wait until their players reach the age of 38 and then sign a new ones or keep trying to improve themselves?Yes but i think there are some better players than him ...you gave to much money

Juan Carlos Nadal
12-29-2006, 01:48 PM
This is kind of old news but Papaloukas was voted (for the second year in a row) the best foreigner in the Russian Superleague. This is quite an achievement given the high quality of foreigners in the RSL, not to mention for a player that comes always off the bench.

As for the poll options I would have to agree that Unicaja should not be there (even if we include Brown), and that even CSKA's presence there is questionable, as their bench cannot be compared to that of TAU, PAO or even Barca.

Damn, am I late in this thread or what? :D

CG
12-30-2006, 08:46 AM
Did he win any MVP award, or was deserved to win one as the main man of the team, in any of those achivements?

Was he BY FAR the most important player in any of those teams or at least as equally important as the "star"? If u had taken him out of that team, would that mean that team would have close to 0 chances to go all the way?

He's a great player. I would sign him in any team I build, but sorry...I don't see him as THE MAIN MAN in any team he played. Very important, big contribution, he's a winner but...



to add to the conversation about PAP was choosensome days ago and for second year the best foreign player in Russia.Something that Stombergas hasnt achieved in any country as far as i know

C-ka
12-30-2006, 01:07 PM
to add to the conversation about PAP was choosensome days ago and for second year the best foreign player in Russia.Something that Stombergas hasnt achieved in any country as far as i know
Actually, if we'd see how both Stombergas and K. Lavrinovic play in the Russian league this year, and that UNICS has lost yet, including a win over CSKA, they both deserve the award more than Papaloukas. Probably it's just all those sentiments from other competitions, but you can't say it's some kind of an evaluation as well to get such an award in Russia. I could also say then that Stombergas has played in ACB All-Stars game and the foreigners there are highest class ones I suppose.

Actually, my main point and direction ain't about putting Stombergas among all those legends, but IMHO Papa doesn't belong there either..

R-bell
12-30-2006, 01:17 PM
Actually, if we'd see how both Stombergas and K. Lavrinovic play in the Russian league this year, and that UNICS has lost yet, including a win over CSKA, they both deserve the award more than Papaloukas. Probably it's just all those sentiments from other competitions, but you can't say it's some kind of an evaluation as well to get such an award in Russia. I could also say then that Stombergas has played in ACB All-Stars game and the foreigners there are highest class ones I suppose.

Actually, my main point and direction ain't about putting Stombergas among all those legends, but IMHO Papa doesn't belong there either..

Well, if I understand right the award is for best foreigner in 2006, so for that u need to count EL title, Russian championship and Russian cup. I don't remember Unics and/or Stomber give any challenge on those titles to CSKA. Counting on first half of the season, that basically means nothing down the stretch, isn't the way to pick the "player of the year", right?

I agree Sabas, Petro, Saras, Ginobili (only for his NBA things, never for his EL career) and Bodiroga are bigger than Papa for now, but he's not very far from them. One more EL title and he's a legit 100% member, while Stomber isn't even 15% close to there (but we already agree on that I guess).

Slowly we do get to some agreement here:)

Buducnost PG
12-30-2006, 01:29 PM
(only for his NBA things, never for his EL career)

Who cares about the EL, when a player has the chance to get in the NBA early and make his way there like Nowitzki, Gasol, Stojakovic, Parker and so on. And Ginobili also get one EL-Title and was MVP of the Final4. He was good in Europe. And he carries Argentina to olympic gold and to a second place at the WC in 2002. Papaloukas is a good player, but is not near to Ginobili.

R-bell
12-30-2006, 01:41 PM
Who cares about the EL, when a player has the chance to get in the NBA early and make his way there like Nowitzki, Gasol, Stojakovic, Parker and so on. And Ginobili also get one EL-Title and was MVP of the Final4. He was good in Europe. And he carries Argentina to olympic gold and to a second place at the WC in 2002. Papaloukas is a good player, but is not near to Ginobili.

Well...when the discussion is "what it takes to win a EL title" I guess the EL is something that you should discuss... There's a reason why Nowitzki, Gasol, Peja, Parker and so on weren't on that initial list that started the discussion and weren't mentioned until now:)

Ginobili won one EL title and was MVP of the F4 and carried his team to the 2nd place in WC. Gee, I wonder what other player has done the same in the last year.

I'm waiting for some1 to tell me Sabas, like Ginobili and Papal, also one only one title, but I think there's no room to discuss how huge and dominant was Sabas, even without winning titles.

And no, I'm not trying to say Papal is as good as Ginobili. That's far from my points. Again, I'm not trying to equal players one to another. We'll never finish that discussion and it's not a very efficient one. The discussion, as I see it, is around how important was player X to a winning EL team, and of course the longer time u carry it, the more important u r. Papa is the only one that is still going after all those titles, while the others on the list are done with that already. Maybe in 3 years from now we'll see Papa has gone down and all he had was just one magical year and that's it. He is very close to there. One more EL title in 2007 or 2008 and for me his place is legit.

C-ka
12-30-2006, 02:02 PM
Well, if I understand right the award is for best foreigner in 2006, so for that u need to count EL title, Russian championship and Russian cup. I don't remember Unics and/or Stomber give any challenge on those titles to CSKA. Counting on first half of the season, that basically means nothing down the stretch, isn't the way to pick the "player of the year", right?

I agree Sabas, Petro, Saras, Ginobili (only for his NBA things, never for his EL career) and Bodiroga are bigger than Papa for now, but he's not very far from them. One more EL title and he's a legit 100% member, while Stomber isn't even 15% close to there (but we already agree on that I guess).

Slowly we do get to some agreement here:)
well yeah..:D however, I haven't quite actually understood so far - how come you consider Papaloukas the main man in his teams?.. As it was said, comparing to Ginobili.. Yes, Papa had good games when needed and the the MVP awards, but, quite really.. in his current teams, he's more likely a role player..:o also I think you must consider individual qualities of the player. Actually for me, Pap's quite an uninteresting player, while the other guys on the list, Sabas, Bodiroga.. It's a real delight to watch them play..;) (this is of course if we discuss the greatness of the player..)

p.s. ah ok I've read your last post so I understand your point and agree in a big part ;)

Buducnost PG
12-30-2006, 02:03 PM
Well...when the discussion is "what it takes to win a EL title" I guess the EL is something that you should discuss... There's a reason why Nowitzki, Gasol, Peja, Parker and so on weren't on that initial list that started the discussion and weren't mentioned until now:)

Ginobili won one EL title and was MVP of the F4 and carried his team to the 2nd place in WC. Gee, I wonder what other player has done the same in the last year.

I'm waiting for some1 to tell me Sabas, like Ginobili and Papal, also one only one title, but I think there's no room to discuss how huge and dominant was Sabas, even without winning titles.

And no, I'm not trying to say Papal is as good as Ginobili. That's far from my points. Again, I'm not trying to equal players one to another. We'll never finish that discussion and it's not a very efficient one. The discussion, as I see it, is around how important was player X to a winning EL team, and of course the longer time u carry it, the more important u r. Papa is the only one that is still going after all those titles, while the others on the list are done with that already. Maybe in 3 years from now we'll see Papa has gone down and all he had was just one magical year and that's it. He is very close to there. One more EL title in 2007 or 2008 and for me his place is legit.


Nowitzki, Gasol, Parker and Stojakovic has to be mentioned in every list, when we were talking about the beste players from Europe ever. They have the talent to play in the NBA and so they didn´t care about winning EL. These times are over, when young promising players from europe are thinking about winning the EL, if they can be a lottery pick. But Nowitzki, Gasol and Stojakovic also showed how good they are at EC and WC. Parker not so far, but he is still young and one of the better PG in the NBA.

And yes Papaloukas also won the EL and a sliver medal at WC02. But Ginobili also carried his NT to gold at the Olympics and together with Ducan carried the Spurs to the NBA-Title in 2004-2005.

And you are right. Sabas was a better player (a center with PG Skills) then Ginobili or Papaloukas. But people often like to overhype players from the past.

And the point also now is that some european Stars are going for the EL-Title and others for the NBA-Title.

It is nice if a european player with NBA potencial can win the EL with his team in young years, but if not it is nothing to worry about. In the past it was a diffrent thing because international players were not in the focus of the NBA clubs. Now every young player from europe want to go to the NBA.

R-bell
12-30-2006, 02:04 PM
well yeah..:D however, I haven't quite actually understood so far - how come you consider Papaloukas the main man in his teams?.. As it was said, comparing to Ginobili.. Yes, Papa had good games when needed and the the MVP awards, but, quite really.. in his current teams, he's more likely a role player..:o also I think you must consider individual qualities of the player. Actually for me, Pap's quite an uninteresting player, while the other guys on the list, Sabas, Bodiroga.. It's a real delight to watch them play..;)

Well, I guess that's a matter of taste then...cause I'm full of delight when I watch Papal play...and I really don't think he's a role player on his teams. I think that if you take him out of CSKA and Greek NT they'll still be strong teams, but never going to win titles.

R-bell
12-30-2006, 02:07 PM
Nowitzki, Gasol, Parker and Stojakovic has to be mentioned in every list, when we were talking about the beste players from Europe ever.

Man, pay more attention to the thread. We are not making a list of the best players from Europe ever...this isn't what this discussion is all about.

C-ka
12-31-2006, 12:52 PM
Well, I guess that's a matter of taste then...cause I'm full of delight when I watch Papal play...and I really don't think he's a role player on his teams. I think that if you take him out of CSKA and Greek NT they'll still be strong teams, but never going to win titles.
Yes I agree, this case is a veeery subjective one to decide;)