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View Full Version : FIBA Europe Being "Punished" By FIBA In This Tournament?



Olympiacos
07-07-2012, 12:23 AM
First, let me ask very kindly that the mods let this thread to not be closed or deleted. Second, that we keep it open for everyone to discuss, but that the obviously out of line comments be controlled.

This is a serious issue.

FIBA Europe said that they were being punished by FIBA when this tournament was moved from Lithuania to Venezuela. This they said was because that they don't want to agree to FIBA's new ruling that EuroBasket will only happen once every 4 years. So they said that FIBA did this as a retaliation against them.

The Lithuanian basketball federation also basically backed this up, as they believed the tournament was taken from them on purpose by FIBA, solely in retaliation and to send a message to FIBA Europe.

Now, I have to say this. At this point, the real question comes up now. The refs clearly made decisions to help Nigeria "beat" Greece and to help Dominican Republic "beat" FYROM.

Why would the refs, especially the Americas refs (hello Canada) be so going out of their way to help eliminate the European teams?

It is just because the Latin American teams are playing in Latin America? Is it just because FIBA as usual wants to give Team USA the easiest possible path to victory (as they always try to do).....

or is it what it really appears to be - that FIBA is trying to send out the European teams to punish FIBA Europe for not wanting to accept their new FIBA world rules, which are coming from the minds of guys like David Stern and Mark Cuban......

I will tell everyone my opinion after what I saw in Greece - Nigeria and FYROM - DR matches. I say to Mark Cuban go ahead and make your "NBA World Championship"........

All of the European teams can break away from FIBA and make their own tournament and their own rules. Just like UEFA, except just totally ignore FIBA altogether.

Between this and the crazy absurd 2010 FIBA World Championship, that's how it should be. It's indeed time that FIBA Europe forms its own organization and tells FIBA to go to hell.

Just my own personal opinion.

Discuss please in a civil manner.

usagre
07-07-2012, 12:27 AM
stop it already. you lost to nigeria. nigeria for god's sake.

Rotela
07-07-2012, 12:30 AM
Greece should have just played their game and won by 20 points like some people said earlier, when you leave things too late and the game becomes tight, you make it very hard for the refs.

Dtown
07-07-2012, 12:30 AM
Well it wouldn't be a proper tournament without a conspiracy thread from vs666/FIBA Europe Basket/Basketball Player/Olympiacos (did I miss any?)

Victorious
07-07-2012, 12:31 AM
The only reason I can think of that the refs help non european teams, is that it is very bad for the tournament and the image of other continental leagues if only European teams qualify in this tournaments. Therefore they choose an enviroment which suits other teams and the refs give a helping hand to non european teams.

As I said before this event started, some of the european domestic leagues finished only one week before this tournament. It is not right for FIBA to organise this qualifying tournament.

NorCal
07-07-2012, 12:52 AM
Hmmm.....so let me get this straight, my two choices are:

1) Massive conspiracy involving large numbers of people from different organizations in different countries working to eliminate Greece and Macedonia because they believe that those teams may beat Team USA at the Olympics which would, of course, send the NBA as a league into a downward spiral and millions of people would stop watching because they no longer believe the NBA is the highest level of competition, thus leading owners like Cuban and others and Stern to lose large buckets of money or

2) Nigeria and Dominican Republic simply outplayed their opponents and were the better teams on one day

Tough choice for any sane mind ;)

Victorious
07-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Hmmm.....so let me get this straight, my two choices are:

1) Massive conspiracy involving large numbers of people from different organizations in different countries working to eliminate Greece and Macedonia because they believe that those teams may beat Team USA at the Olympics which would, of course, send the NBA as a league into a downward spiral and millions of people would stop watching because they no longer believe the NBA is the highest level of competition, thus leading owners like Cuban and others and Stern to lose large buckets of money or

2) Nigeria and Dominican Republic simply outplayed their opponents and were the better teams on one day

Tough choice for any sane mind ;)

Naah, the refs can give an extra hand to the underdogs. That's only human. After all, FIBA wants to make basketball more popular.

Olympiacos
07-07-2012, 12:58 AM
The only reason I can think of that the refs help non european teams, is that it is very bad for the tournament and the image of other continental leagues if only European teams qualify in this tournaments. Therefore they choose an enviroment which suits other teams and the refs give a helping hand to non european teams.

As I said before this event started, some of the european domestic leagues finished only one week before this tournament. It is not right for FIBA to organise this qualifying tournament.

Yes. Good point. I forgot to mention about how FIBA purposely made the schedule to help the non-European teams. You had guys in the Italian League playing, that literally had to hop on a plane to South America after the Italian League ended......

While by comparison, the other non-European teams were sitting around waiting.

For example, the Greek League actually had to change the league schedule, just to accommodate for the schedule that FIBA set in place. Now I ask this as a serious question......

can you imagine what would happen if FIBA made a schedule that required the NBA to change its schedule? The NBA would go nuts and probably boycott future tournaments.

But asking the Greek League to change its schedule was just par for the course. This is another thing, as FIBA Europe and the European federations were baffled at the schedule FIBA set into place.

First, make the European teams play right after their leagues end, and in some cases also make the league change their schedule, and then on top of this, make the European teams travel half way around the world and through several time zones.

While the Latin American teams are sitting their just waiting the whole time, or while the African and Asian teams even have a lot of time off to rest and train.

So no training time for European teams - check

Travel half way around the world and with no time to rest from domestic leagues for European teams
- check

refs that favor the non-European teams - check

The more I think about it, this tournament will be the death of FIBA controlling anything in European basketball ever again.

Dtown
07-07-2012, 01:01 AM
Naah, the refs can give an extra hand to the underdogs. That's only human. After all, FIBA wants to make basketball more popular.

Did the refs force Greece to shoot 60% from the line too?

Olympiacos
07-07-2012, 01:08 AM
Did the refs force Greece to shoot 60% from the line too?

I would just love to see you if Team USA gets robbed by the refs in a game. Of course it will never happen, since the refs always favor USA in every game they ever played in.

You remind me of the fans that said for years that Kings - Lakers 2002 and Mavs - Rockets 2005 were not manipulated by the refs. Then a few years later the FBI admits they were.

Yeah, it must be nice to be so naive.

Darknemo2000
07-07-2012, 01:08 AM
I dont think Refs are annti-Euro as much as the rules they are treating is what Euro teams are not accustomed to. Thats why it feels like refs favouring the non-euro teams but in reality they are more whistling games like non-euro games that non-euro countries are more accostumed and have some advantage as its much easier for them to adopt the whistles than Euro's who are not used to the games being called like that.

This being said some refs from non-basketball countries were quite a bit awful compared to a colleagues who are used at whistling in big tournaments. Sometimes FIBA really overdoes in attempt to select as wide nationality refs as possible which sometimes lowers the reffing quality drastically, but normally its the same for both teams.

NorCal
07-07-2012, 01:19 AM
I dont think Refs are annti-Euro as much as the rules they are treating is what Euro teams are not accustomed to. Thats why it feels like refs favouring the non-euro teams but in reality they are more whistling games like non-euro games that non-euro countries are more accostumed and have some advantage as its much easier for them to adopt the whistles than Euro's who are not used to the games being called like that.

This being said some refs from non-basketball countries were quite a bit awful compared to a colleagues who are used at whistling in big tournaments. Sometimes FIBA really overdoes in attempt to select as wide nationality refs as possible which sometimes lowers the reffing quality drastically, but normally its the same for both teams.

I'm glad someone brought this point up. I remember one of the ESPN writers analyzing the same thing years ago after talking with Team USA players about how games are simply whistled differently (even beyond the traveling calls). Some of the rules are more 'relaxed' in certain regions and some are whistled more stringently, that's just a fact. Some regions allow more contact in the post or on the perimeter and some don't.

Victorious
07-07-2012, 03:26 AM
Did the refs force Greece to shoot 60% from the line too?

No, Greece lost on its own account. The game went on the wire and some people have complained about the refs. My point is simply that refs are only human and may have favored the underdog in some situations. But Greece should never have let it come to that point. And Yes, I think that FIBA will be delighted that at least one non-european team will qualify out of this tournament.

macleopard13
07-07-2012, 03:49 AM
Why, then, Lithuania was not punished? The refs could've easily not called that travel against Peavy in the paint and that charge against Pocius.

Raze Lupin
07-07-2012, 03:59 AM
Well it wouldn't be a proper tournament without a conspiracy thread from vs666/FIBA Europe Basket/Basketball Player/Olympiacos (did I miss any?)

SO TRUE!! It's a shame.

Raze Lupin
07-07-2012, 04:20 AM
Listen Europeans! The FIBA Americas has become much closer to FIBA Europe in the last 2 years. P.R., D.R and Venezuela can beat any mid level Euro team. USA, Brazil and Argentina can beat any Euro team. The continents are relatively close at this point. Basketball is very competitive right now. Everyone should be happy! I always cheer for USA but I'm so proud of the growth of this beautiful game. To answer the question No I don't believe their is a FIBA Americas bias. I also believe Lietuva got the benefit of the calls in the 4th quarter. This is not why they won.

It seems to me that FIBA American teams have 2 things that help them against Euro squads. 1)Americano defense. Mainly aggressively attacking the passing lanes. That gives Euros problems. 2) A point guard advantage. All top FIBA American teams have point guards that can penetrate on ANY defense. Barea, Arroyo, Manu, Barbosa etc.

I also agree that FIBA regional zones refs are not consistent with each other. FIBA America play a more physical game. In FIBA Euro the Russians and Turks do as well. How do you fix that though?

saalsapr
07-07-2012, 04:34 AM
Never seen someone here being as butthurt as Olympiacos is right now.

You went life and death against Nigeria, what makes you think you could have beaten a top level team at the Olympics? Better to get eliminated now than to disgrace yourself and your country against the big guys.

Tasos Peiraias
07-07-2012, 05:14 AM
Never seen someone here being as butthurt as Olympiacos is right now.

You went life and death against Nigeria, what makes you think you could have beaten a top level team at the Olympics? Better to get eliminated now than to disgrace yourself and your country against the big guys.
Our players played sleepy and they are out of this game.Perhaps they have the match against Russia.However,in the matches against Jordan and you we played well and we dont face any problem...

Tasos Peiraias
07-07-2012, 05:19 AM
This is the clean foul to Spanoulis:
http://www.google.gr/imgres?hl=el&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=491&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsu&tbnid=15_Gsg5x6pH0zM:&imgrefurl=http://www.sportdog.gr/article/113843/mas-mayrisan-tin-psyxi&docid=UxCcc7F0jJTzgM&imgurl=http://www.sportdog.gr/sites/default/files/imagecache/lightbox_full/article/2012_07/grenig6-7.jpg&w=800&h=1083&ei=ecb3T5yCKcLG0QXfyNWfBw&zoom=1

Victorious
07-07-2012, 05:27 AM
Listen Europeans! The FIBA Americas has become much closer to FIBA Europe in the last 2 years. P.R., D.R and Venezuela can beat any mid level Euro team. USA, Brazil and Argentina can beat any Euro team. The continents are relatively close at this point. Basketball is very competitive right now. Everyone should be happy! I always cheer for USA but I'm so proud of the growth of this beautiful game. To answer the question No I don't believe their is a FIBA Americas bias. I also believe Lietuva got the benefit of the calls in the 4th quarter. This is not why they won.

It seems to me that FIBA American teams have 2 things that help them against Euro squads. 1)Americano defense. Mainly aggressively attacking the passing lanes. That gives Euros problems. 2) A point guard advantage. All top FIBA American teams have point guards that can penetrate on ANY defense. Barea, Arroyo, Manu, Barbosa etc.

I also agree that FIBA regional zones refs are not consistent with each other. FIBA America play a more physical game. In FIBA Euro the Russians and Turks do as well. How do you fix that though?

Puerto Rico couldn't beat mid-level teams like Greece and Lithuania in this tournament. And I doubt the Dominican Republic will be able to beat Lithuania. FYROM is not a mid-level team. The team had a dream tournament last year and before McCalebb joined them, they could barely qualify for Eurobasket. Argentina and Brazil could be medal candidates in Europe, along with Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, Turkey, Spain, France, Russia. Although I think that Argentina has had its best days and may not be part of that list as of next year. So FIBA Americas is very thin. I even think that Germany, Croatia, Slovenia and Italy are closer to the level of Puerto Rico and the Dominican republic.

Federoy
07-07-2012, 05:28 AM
I would just love to see you if Team USA gets robbed by the refs in a game. Of course it will never happen, since the refs always favor USA in every game they ever played in.

You remind me of the fans that said for years that Kings - Lakers 2002 and Mavs - Rockets 2005 were not manipulated by the refs. Then a few years later the FBI admits they were.

Yeah, it must be nice to be so naive.

Usually the US is up by double digits, so getting jobbed by the refs is a moot point. If Greece hits its free-throws, we're not having this discussion. PERIOD. The same situation happened six years ago when the US lost fair and square to Greece; if we hit our FTs, we would've won. But we didn't, and no one with credibility on this side of the pond blamed the refs, silly conspiracy theories, lack of preparation, bad Japanese cuisine or anything else. We lost to a BETTER team, no ifs, ands, or buts.

You'll rail and rant against "arrogant" Americans, yet ironically, by denying Nigeria its due credit for beating a supposedly superior team, you express the very uppidiness that you claim you can't stand. How does the shoe feel, buddy?

Lastly, your six year run of attention whoring must get tiresome at some point, right? It would definitely ware my ass out.

Raze Lupin
07-07-2012, 05:57 AM
Puerto Rico couldn't beat mid-level teams like Greece and Lithuania in this tournament. And I doubt the Dominican Republic will be able to beat Lithuania. FYROM is not a mid-level team. The team had a dream tournament last year and before McCalebb joined them, they could barely qualify for Eurobasket. Argentina and Brazil could be medal candidates in Europe, along with Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, Turkey, Spain, France, Russia. Although I think that Argentina has had its best days and may not be part of that list as of next year. So FIBA Americas is very thin. I even think that Germany, Croatia, Slovenia and Italy are closer to the level of Puerto Rico and the Dominican republic.

Lithuania struggled against both Venezuela and P.R.. The most objective view is Lietuva and P.R. are even at this point. Lietuva had no answer for the American guards. Greece got beat by low level Nigeria. Credit the Nigerians but Greece showed poor execution. FYROM beat Greece and Lietuva. D.R. beat FYROM. P.R played Lietuva even. As of right now I don't see a clear superiority. I believe quality of FIBA Americas and FIBA Europe is relatively even. Europe isn't far superior in quality. Europe is Superior in volume. Meaning they have more teams that have good quality.

FIBA Americas
1st tier: USA, Brazil, Argentina 2nd tier:Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, 3rd tier: Venezuela

FIBA Europe
1st tier: Spain, France, Russia 2rd tier: Lietuva, Greece, Turkey, Serbia 3rd tier: Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, FYROM

It looks to me that Europe just has more teams

Darknemo2000
07-07-2012, 08:57 AM
Lithuania struggled against both Venezuela and P.R.. The most objective view is Lietuva and P.R. are even at this point. Lietuva had no answer for the American guards. Greece got beat by low level Nigeria. Credit the Nigerians but Greece showed poor execution. FYROM beat Greece and Lietuva. D.R. beat FYROM. P.R played Lietuva even. As of right now I don't see a clear superiority. I believe quality of FIBA Americas and FIBA Europe is relatively even. Europe isn't far superior in quality. Europe is Superior in volume. Meaning they have more teams that have good quality.

FIBA Americas
1st tier: USA, Brazil, Argentina 2nd tier:Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, 3rd tier: Venezuela

FIBA Europe
1st tier: Spain, France, Russia 2rd tier: Lietuva, Greece, Turkey, Serbia 3rd tier: Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, FYROM

It looks to me that Europe just has more teams

Lithuania did not have struggles agaisnt venezuela. I mean they won comfortably and were leading all game long. This is not struggling. They were supperior through and through.

Against Rico. Lithuania sucked as much as Rico. You are saying it that if Rico would have played all of their limits they would have won but lithuania were far from having a good game either. Who knows really who would have won if both NT's would have had good games. Both had bad games and Lithuania were stronger.

And dont blame refs for the last calls because Lith's can equally blame refs for keeping the game close when difference was nine points with little time left on the clock.

madmax
07-07-2012, 10:35 AM
I believe refs are equally horrible concerning all the teams in this tournament...I've never seen so many players being simply baffled by some of these outrageous calls and non-calls. FIBA is really struggling with refereeing integrity lately - delegating low level refs to such prestigious competition is a big no no in my honest opinion. Bad calls destroy the flow of the games and parades to the free throw line become tedious and simply unwatchable...

Dreamcatcher
07-07-2012, 10:36 AM
Olympiacos!

I agree that Greece was robbed by refs in the last episode (and maybe in some others). But you don't get a point here! It's not about refeering. It was OK in Lithuania games against local teams. And Dominica really was better than Macedonia. The point is, that 3-rd place in this tournament is going to have much easier group in London (first 2 goes to death group) And greeks would do their tricky things again, as they did in WC 2010! That's why you were punished, it's obvious. Such things never get forgotten.

MJ was an alien
07-07-2012, 11:00 AM
This thread is disappointing. The reason that we are cranky is because we miss our old team. The last Euro was a disaster for us cause we had an entirely new team. Now Diamandidis chose to go on vacations and Sofo wont give up eating pancakes. Nevertheless Greece was a superteam among Spain and Russia and can be again.

Blackway
07-07-2012, 01:41 PM
Lithuania struggled against both Venezuela and P.R.. The most objective view is Lietuva and P.R. are even at this point. Lietuva had no answer for the American guards. Greece got beat by low level Nigeria. Credit the Nigerians but Greece showed poor execution. FYROM beat Greece and Lietuva. D.R. beat FYROM. P.R played Lietuva even. As of right now I don't see a clear superiority. I believe quality of FIBA Americas and FIBA Europe is relatively even. Europe isn't far superior in quality. Europe is Superior in volume. Meaning they have more teams that have good quality.

FIBA Americas
1st tier: USA, Brazil, Argentina 2nd tier:Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, 3rd tier: Venezuela

FIBA Europe
1st tier: Spain, France, Russia 2rd tier: Lietuva, Greece, Turkey, Serbia 3rd tier: Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, FYROM

It looks to me that Europe just has more teams

Wrong. Have Fiba Americas (sans USA) teams come to Europe right after their club seasons to play in a 3 game knockout tournament and you will see their "real" strength against Fiba Europe.