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Picek
09-16-2011, 01:34 PM
At the moment of starting this thread Greece has a 23 point lead and unless I "kill them" with this sentence there is no way they will lose the OG qualifications ticket..
further on that means that except Macedonia there won't be any "yugoslavian" team on the olympics or qualifying tournament atleast and that makes this tournament a complete and utter failure and humiliation of yugoslavian basketball and it's basketball school which is usually placed really high..

and under yugoslavian I mean any team from ex-yugoslavia..
btw. this was the first time every ex-yugoslavian country was present at EC..
and hats of to both EC and WC but for me personally OG are the biggest basketball tournament on the planet.. by far..

And let us see how they did in alphabetical order:

1. Bosnia and Herzegovina - failed to qualify for the second round, got their assess blown by Finland but they finally won the game at the EC where they haven't been for a long time. not only that, they won two games in total and the second one was an easy one against Croatia which was surely a sweet one 'cause croatian's like to see bosnian team as an inferior team to theirs..
IMO in total this was a good tournament for them. finally they assembled their full or almost full team and if their federation actually could have afford some things during prep period I bet their result would be even better.
anyway a solid ground to work on..
biggest issue: Teletović factor - when he is hot entire team plays good, when he takes a day off Bosnia losses, C position - with Varda exiting (and the real reason why he was out of the team was never publicly announced) they are severly weaken at C, no money for proper preps..
future: this team can stay together for atleast 5-7 years and that means the best is still infront of them to come. what comes after is a huge question since bosnian youth categories basicly don't exist on european basketball map.
OG history - never been on the OG tournament


2. Croatia - kicked out from the tournament before the real tournament even started - is there really anything needed to say about our performance? o.k., it is not a medal contender team (eventhough I as a hardcore fan always believe in their potential and year after year I get more and more dissapointed) but being kicked out after group stage. unacceptable.
yes, Tomas and Ukić were a loss but come on. every team has that. the biggest dissapointment of all yugoslavian teams... for sure and not only just for me.. what is even worse for basketball in Croatia they have lost all support even from those hardcore fans like I am..
biggest issue: no team play, no set offence, unexisting defense. and the thing I hate the most simply no passion in the game, no heart..
future: for the last 16 years our future was "bright" and for the last 16 year we managed to do nothing or almost nothing. we are claiming we have a bright future.. with no proper coaching both in NT and the clubs, with Radić at helm of our basketball there is simply no future..
OG history: after two OG tournaments in the 90's Repeša took us to Beijing in 2008. but we are now out of the picture.. again.. oh well, I can atleast use the repeat button on the 1992. OG final tape over and over again..


3. Macedonia - they lost 7 prep games and look at where they are now. impressive to say atleast, they don't possess the quality or the depth like Slovenia or Serbia but with a huge heart and brilliant tactics they have overcome that. surely one of the best stories of european basketball in the last 20 years.. hats off.. their defensive game plan could become a special section in every training book.. everyone will say they played against never as week Greece or against Lithuania on a bad Lith day but I don't think they really care about it.. you have to recognize a great story when there is one.. and they are the biggest story of this EC..
biggest issue: short bench and Gečevski is injured otherwise there are none
future: at 17:30 today they will be making history by playing at EC semifinal and really, I mean really who the fuck cares about what comes after that. but IMO if they don't win the semifinal game this evening they will hardly see London O2 Arena. but this result will surely raise some interest for basketball and that will play a big role in their future. other than that, once Ilievski, Antić and Mekajlebovski are gonne who will remain?
OG history - so close to their first appearance. I hope it won't remain on just that..


4. Montenegro - they destroyed every opponent on their way from B division to EC and then the EC started and noone has seen them actually appearing on it.. have you seen them anywhere? they were supposed to be a tough nut to crack for everyone and at the end they were as cute as koala is..

biggest issue: Peković can easily play a role at sumo fights, I mean wtf Nikola? you have chevaps, you don't have to eat mccrap every fucking day, guards, coach.. no expirience at this level of national team basketball
future:this will surely be a good learning expirience for them and this core of players can play together this entire decade or most of it anyway. what comes after?
OG history - they played in Athens but they had a longer name of the country back then, other then that they are quite small to make it. but who knows, maybe one day..


5. Serbia - if Novica Veličković means so much for serbian NT basketball team then serbs should really worry about it. Surely he has a big role in the team and yes injuries disrupted this team but like stated up there, under Croatia, every team goes through that and that can only be used as a good excuse. fact of the matter is that except against Germany for most of the game (not last 5 minutes though) and against France this serbian team played like shit all tournament long and they really didn't deserve to go any further then this. Ivković surely lost some credibility with this result and I personally believe his position as a coach of the NT should be under a big questionmark. Teodosić is a great player but in this team he is a sheriff and that didn't end up good did it? He is not a leader, period.

biggest issue: no real substition for Krstić or atleast not amongst the players called here.. Teodosić being a TO king of this championship. lack of bench or atleast lack of using the bench properly
future: talents are still there and more are coming and there shouldn't be any worries about the future. they just need a young coach with new ideas.
OG history - second tournament in a row they missing out and that should worry them because they are always in a downfall when the olympics are at the doors

6. Slovenia - I said so many times before the tournament started that Maljković is a dinosaur and he proved me right. surely some things he couldn't influence (injury of Nachbar) or cancellation of B. Udrih but still the fact of the matter is that if there wouldn't be a croatian team slovenian team would be called as playing the biggest shit of the basketball of any yugoslavian country. simply a horrible performance and nothing much to add here.
biggest issue: Maljković and injuries/cancellation
future: EC in Slovenia is in two years and they will probably have a new coach who will have only a little time and couple of prep games to prepare the team for the tournament. even if everyone show up for it it is still a question of what they can actually do on the tournament considering they lost a year of their lives because of Maljković
OG history - OG? what is that, something to eat?

how do you see it? with what do you connect this fall? adriatic league?

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 02:01 PM
adriatic league? no

ex yu had 12 teams and from that 12 teams ther were 2 powerhouses

depth is still there, but no stars who can make difrence. that is prety much it. in all nations closest to stars are krstic, lorbek and teodosic

comparing that to cosic, dalipagic, delibasic, kukoc, petrovic, divac, stojakovic, radja, bodiroga....not even funny

macedonia is lucky. few decent players so their coach can't kill them with nonsense rotations and 1 star player who makes difrence

why no stars.....simpley because there was no star talents besides milicic and sesar, and those 2 hand brain problems

still, 40-50 good level players and 10-15 good coaches say ex yugo basketball is not dead

damelo
09-16-2011, 02:05 PM
Just one question: How is the total population of all the former Yugoslavia?

Not event 40 millions people?

Also, when Yugoslavia dominated, most of Europe was not really playing basketball. A few guys got out, for sure. But, Yugoslavia as a whole was the only entity able to compete with USA and USSR. Yet, if USSR developped basketball in one country especially, Lithuania, and it was succesful as we can see, it seems to me Yugoslavia had players from every nation composing it. So, when the country collapsed and seperated, the talent has been split. And with every 10 years an new separation, the talents are less and less concentrated. Also, a smallest federation means smaller means for the same objectives. And more competition, since any time, one decent team is created, while one good team looses some stellar players.

On the other side, it seems bigger countries have overpasses their formation backwardness, and with wider populations, they fataly have more potential and talent. Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story. Other countries have more to offer to multi-national players(And maybe not only in Bball, cf Niko Karabatic, who is the son of a croatian player, born in france and taught handball in France, he chose France). Yugoslavia, with the wars/struggles known by the area, may have lost some attractiveness, and taken a jump backwards in terms of sports.

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 02:16 PM
Just one question: How is the total population of all the former Yugoslavia?

Not event 40 millions people?

Also, when Yugoslavia dominated, most of Europe was not really playing basketball. A few guys got out, for sure. But, Yugoslavia as a whole was the only entity able to compete with USA and USSR. Yet, if USSR developped basketball in one country especially, Lithuania, and it was succesful as we can see, it seems to me Yugoslavia had players from every nation composing it. So, when the country collapsed and seperated, the talent has been split. And with every 10 years an new separation, the talents are less and less concentrated. Also, a smallest federation means smaller means for the same objectives. And more competition, since any time, one decent team is created, while one good team looses some stellar players.

On the other side, it seems bigger countries have overpasses their formation backwardness, and with wider populations, they fataly have more potential and talent. Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story. Other countries have more to offer to multi-national players(And maybe not only in Bball, cf Niko Karabatic, who is the son of a croatian player, born in france and taught handball in France, he chose France). Yugoslavia, with the wars/struggles known by the area, may have lost some attractiveness, and taken a jump backwards in terms of sports.

somwere about 22 to milions

small talent pool is not problem

croatia, sloveni and serbia still have depth like few other in europe, but simply no stars who make difrence besides borche mekalebovski:D

Picek
09-16-2011, 02:29 PM
On the other side, it seems bigger countries have overpasses their formation backwardness, and with wider populations, they fataly have more potential and talent. Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story. Other countries have more to offer to multi-national players(And maybe not only in Bball, cf Niko Karabatic, who is the son of a croatian player, born in france and taught handball in France, he chose France). Yugoslavia, with the wars/struggles known by the area, may have lost some attractiveness, and taken a jump backwards in terms of sports.
regarding Karabatić, he was actually born in NIš (Serbia) from where his mother is and his father (croat) was there playing handball when he met his mother and made Nikola :D. later they moved to France because's of Branko's (father) career and stayed there..

and I disagree regarding taking a step back in terms of sports.. I would say that for us (or maybe that was just me) in the 90' sport was the only way to get out from all the shit that was happening and it was also the perfect way to show the world that we exist..
now there is much less patriotism in it (you can see Montenegro as the newest example of it. when they parted from Serbia their waterpolo team (one of the best in the world) was flying against everyone and now when tensions and patriotism is down the problems appeared), probably because these players today didn't have to prove anything to their former compatriots, but the sport is still the perfect gateway from the low life standard we are actually living in..
for croatian basketball problems began with Dražen's death in 1993. and the final act was us stepping down from the medal ceremony in Greece in 1995. after that everything fell apart (we can also connect that with arrival of Danko Radić to the top of the basketball pyramid in Croatia) and other sports (mostly handball with it's astonishing results) took over.. slowly over the years dissapointments started to build on and a people lost interest in basketball...

I do agree with what you said about bigger competition, smaller amount of money available.. that surely plays a big role in this whole story.. but the fact of the matter this is still one of the biggest basketball talent pools on the world and the results aren't showing that..

DarkoMVP
09-16-2011, 02:44 PM
Yugoslavia still has more potential basketball players population - 188+ cm - than Spain.

Tesla
09-16-2011, 03:18 PM
The success of Macedonia shows that success on the international stage will always be very possible. The Macedonians, being perhaps the most different and least inclined to basketball of the former countries... to have pulled out such success shows (I think) how much "mentality" plays a role. Croatia & Serbia still suffer greatly from expectation. Not arrogance, but Serbs & Croats both think & expect to be the best in a lot of sports. The Serbian public was already spitting on the team after the Lithuania game. It's not a healthy attitude most of the Serbian public has. The Serbian team it self has been unique (apart from maybe waterpolo teams) in displaying a strong team effort and good attitude where normally Serbian teams are more inclined to fight amongst them selves. This Serbian generation has been unique for Serbs in terms of attitude (I think mostly because of Ivkovic), but Serbs in general still have a very long way to go in achieving the most healthy sporting attitude such as can be found for instance amongst the Irish who knocked Partizan out recently in the football. I still think this was a good tournament for Serbia. We were limited in the end with a couple injuries and we can even say a couple potential players were missing. I'm proud of these boys but a definite improvement in attitude would have shown if we beat the Greeks. That display shows that our attitude still hasn't evolved near enough.

damelo
09-16-2011, 03:24 PM
One question: How can you keep being nationalist when everyday you are from a new country?

how can Montenegrin be patriots after the country was created by the will of a cocaine Narco?

About results, you see that even the Great basketball nations of Yugoslavia are calling for US players. Why Croatia needed Draper? What did he really bring? I think it is even more intriguing than McCalebb being Macedonian.

For the moment, the stars of European Basketball are not from Yougoslavia, they are now from EU, despite a smaller pool of tall guys.

But probably, after Spain sees the Gasols retire, their level will come back to earth. France without Parker will not remain so high. Germany without Dirk is just a 10-->15 spot, even if the sport seems to be in the right direction in Germany, thanks to Bauermann.

Adriatic League level is crazy considering the budget of the clubs. France probably has the same kind of budgets, and is not able to make teams of that level. The pool of players is great, formation is great, but maybe the players created by the Yougo system are too much serious, not enough free to play as they wish. Well, when you see Teodosic playing the way he wants, it may not be such a good idea.

Tesla
09-16-2011, 03:35 PM
^ Your insight is very good. Really though without intending to be dismissive, it's very complicated. You will find much diversity in opinion in each and every country except perhaps Slovenia. We are people that are just not inclined to unity. Unity is like some kind of submission for us. There is even a unique word in the Serbian language, "inat" that can help to understand us. One definition, "an attitude of proud defiance, stubborness and self-preservation - sometimes to the detriment of everyone else or even oneself."

Please, feel free to discuss politics at non basketball related forums.
JPF

Fedfan
09-16-2011, 03:37 PM
One question: How can you keep being nationalist when everyday you are from a new country?


what nation has to do with country?:confused:

Picek
09-16-2011, 03:42 PM
About results, you see that even the Great basketball nations of Yugoslavia are calling for US players. Why Croatia needed Draper? What did he really bring? I think it is even more intriguing than McCalebb being Macedonian. well, we had Draper because our federation together with our coach tought we are one good PG away from being a contender and the truth is we are one federation and one coach away from being contender.. I don't see that happening again anytime soon..



Well, when you see Teodosic playing the way he wants, it may not be such a good idea.I almost fell from the chair :D:D:D

Tesla
09-16-2011, 03:43 PM
what nation has to do with country?:confused:

? Perhaps you don't understand English well enough. Nationality is pretty much citizenship of a country. It doesn't necessarily have a correlation with identity (ethnicity). Nationalism has a completely different meaning. I suppose since they sound similar they can cause confusion.

Fedfan
09-16-2011, 03:49 PM
? Perhaps you don't understand English well enough. Nationality is pretty much citizenship of a country. It doesn't necessarily have a correlation with identity (ethnicity). Nationalism has a completely different meaning. I suppose since they sound similar they can cause confusion.

"Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state, usually determined by their citizenship, but sometimes by ethnicity or place of residence, or based on their sense of national identity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality

not synonyms.

Tesla
09-16-2011, 03:58 PM
^ That's right. So what don't you understand? What was your actual question?

Fedfan
09-16-2011, 04:04 PM
^ That's right. So what don't you understand? What was your actual question?

nation is not synonym with country so damelo's question is invalid since a nation identity can eXist irregardless of the country's age.

Tesla
09-16-2011, 04:05 PM
Anyway, Croatia has had the biggest fall. That's maybe why Picek posted this. Do we also now claim there is a rise in "Macedonian" basketball? I don't think so. It's fucking amazing that every single ex-yu country managed to qualify for this tournament in the first place. Macedonia finished last in the ex-yu tournament, and above all others in this one. Go figure. It's such a strong tournament as well. The other countries are above their normal standard as well.

Picek
09-16-2011, 04:19 PM
Anyway, Croatia has had the biggest fall. That's maybe why Picek posted this. Do we also now claim there is a rise in "Macedonian" basketball? I don't think so. It's fucking amazing that every single ex-yu country managed to qualify for this tournament in the first place. Macedonia finished last in the ex-yu tournament, and above all others in this one. Go figure. It's such a strong tournament as well. The other countries are above their normal standard as well.
come on, you have to agree that finishing 7/8 is a downfall from being a finalist last time around and from being a semifinalist of last WC..
and all of that with virtually the same team only with a bit more expirience and years of playing together..
and I don't think slovenians are happy with this result either.. game play even more..

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 04:36 PM
Bosnia and Montenegro never were great, Macedonia is having its best year ever, Croatia hasn't been relevant since Drazen passed away, Slovenia contends in Eurobasket every once in a while and that's all they'll ever do..

Yugoslavian basketball means Serbia..
They reached the final in 2009 and the final four in 2010, just because they had a lesser year, which is completely normal, it doesn't mean bball is on the decline

Very opportunistic thread

Picek
09-16-2011, 04:51 PM
Croatia hasn't been relevant since Drazen passed away,
that is true and simply a fact although medal in 1995. was won without Dražen..
however, being on the last OG (but since you have such an attitude I most respond on it, being on OG is something Turkey hasn't achieved in more then 60 years) and not being on this one is a fall..
for Serbia, missing on a second consecutive OG tournament is surely a problem..
that is if you think of OG as the greatest basketball tournament like I do..

pimpekaustas
09-16-2011, 04:56 PM
Yugoslavian basketball means Serbia..


don't write nonsense. in ex yu teams the majority of players always came from croatia. in every single tournament more than 50% players were croats. now serbia is better, but that doesn't mean yugo basket means serbia :rolleyes:

euskadi
09-16-2011, 04:58 PM
2. Croatia - kicked out from the tournament before the real tournament even started - is there really anything needed to say about our performance? o.k., it is not a medal contender team (eventhough I as a hardcore fan always believe in their potential and year after year I get more and more dissapointed) but being kicked out after group stage. unacceptable.
yes, Tomas and Ukić were a loss but come on. every team has that. the biggest dissapointment of all yugoslavian teams... for sure and not only just for me.. what is even worse for basketball in Croatia they have lost all support even from those hardcore fans like I am..
biggest issue: no team play, no set offence, unexisting defense. and the thing I hate the most simply no passion in the game, no heart..
future: for the last 16 years our future was "bright" and for the last 16 year we managed to do nothing or almost nothing. we are claiming we have a bright future.. with no proper coaching both in NT and the clubs, with Radić at helm of our basketball there is simply no future..
OG history: after two OG tournaments in the 90's Repeša took us to Beijing in 2008. but we are now out of the picture.. again.. oh well, I can atleast use the repeat button on the 1992. OG final tape over and over again..




I'm not sure that croatia had so bright future in last 10 years. we always pretend that we have big talents that was ruined by radiic and our federation. but is it true? since 2002. and start of back to back u - 16 tournaments croatia before 2010. played only once 1/2 finals of u16 eurobasket. talented players win golds and not 6. or 8. or 12. places.

in last 2 yeras we won back to back golds. now these player are REAL talents. we never have so much talented players packed in 2,3 years. and on top of that we have 2 projected superstars. and if you ask me, i am ready to bet that croatia will came close to repeat serbian 4 in row u 16 gold medals. we have realy great 96. and 97. generations.


is radics guilty that tomic is 217 cm big girl, or that tomas have role player mentality. whether the feb president guilty that rubio became mediocre pleyer instead superstar? now look at the spanish bbal as for example. on the surface looks like perfect system. great senior team, lot of u medals, big talents.... but if u scratch surface there is pau gasol and big big hole. a team that needs big reffere help to win 1/4 finals, ready to lose of anyone. and exept purchased montenegrian there is no superstar talent.

croatia have and always will have good players. but only teams with SUPERSTARS win medals continuously. we need our pau gasol to win eurobasket. system can produce good players but superstars are born to be superstars. you can not produce one. in 2011 we have better players then in 1992. or at lkeast bigger number of good players. but we dont have petro, kukoc and radja



on topic. yougolavian basketball did not fall. she is "only" separated in 6 pieces. connect that pieces and you will have great bball nation :cool:

Joško Poljak Fan
09-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Bosnia once was THE factory of european basketball :rolleyes: reasons that's not the case anymore are well known so I won't be repeating them.

Well... The worst thing going on to ex-Yu are the coaches. Basicaly all the best coaches are abroad with only few of them as Pešić (Zvezda) or Sagadin (Helios) ever returning back to their native enviroments, while the ones "in a rise" as Džikić, Spahija or Zdovc are gone pretty fast. A lot of knowledge is getting lost this way, knowledge that would get passed down to players as well as the coaches.
2nd worst thing is the weakness of the top clubs.
Manager doing what's best for a player are fairytales I can't believe how many players actually believe. Some of the top talents get's sold to foreign clubs where they aren't receiving enough minutes (yet, their native players do) and unless they proove themselves a superstar material they will be treated as completely expendable.
There is a long list of those youngsters leaving abroad too early, noone can claim some player would be a superstar if not leaving abroad too early, but might just be the case with some of them.

Yet, as long as the club competitions as Adriatic league will keep improving, no need to worry imo.

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 05:06 PM
I don't have an attitude, but you should see Croatia reaching the 2008 games as an exception rather than a normality

Serbia might've missed the Olympic games for the second time in a row, but the two tournament before this they were top 2 and top 4

If 2009's Eurobasket would offer spots for the Olympics then they would be there, so you have to have some luck too.. It's the same Eurobasket, in 2009 it doesn't help you, in 2011 it does..

And I don't think the Olympic Games are the greatest basketball tournament, because 1: it isn't just for basketball, it is one of the many sports and 2: there are very few teams and not even the greatest twelve in the world, and great contenders can't be there because of a bad year

The World Championship is a better tournament because it has more teams and muccchhh more cumulative quality, but the Olympics are the most prestigious one, because the Americans say so

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 05:07 PM
Bosnia and Montenegro never were great, Macedonia is having its best year ever, Croatia hasn't been relevant since Drazen passed away, Slovenia contends in Eurobasket every once in a while and that's all they'll ever do..

Yugoslavian basketball means Serbia..
They reached the final in 2009 and the final four in 2010, just because they had a lesser year, which is completely normal, it doesn't mean bball is on the decline

Very opportunistic thread

:rolleyes:

since drazen past away croatia got 3 medals

and i still wonder how it would look if we didn't have so many absentes and if our federation worked normally since radic got inte federation

since 96. olympics croatia only in 05. played with full rooster where we were robbed big time

and this could be team that would be contender till let say 2007

just for sample 99. and 01. teams could look like

mulamerovic, alanovic, giricek, perasovic, komazec, rimac, z. radulovic, marcelic, kukoc, n. radulovic, golemac, radja, vujcic, prkacin, tabak, kovacic

insted lot of this guys players like henjak, jure ruzic, tomeljak, ivan donald maric

slovenia wasn't strong during ex yugo, but since somwere 02-04., they are haveing probably most talent from all ex yugo teams, but they are consistantly underachiving

most euro teams just started dealing with absentees of kind croatia, serbia, slovenia are dealing over 15 years

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 05:08 PM
And excuse me if I seem to not give Bosnia or Croatia enough credit, I'm just 22 ;)
Since I've been watching Serbia has been the greatest ex-Yu country, followed by Slovenia.. I know very little about the older times

Vlatko.klp
09-16-2011, 05:08 PM
There is no fall in Yugoslavian basketball. Macedonia is here to help by winning the bronze medal :D

Picek
09-16-2011, 05:15 PM
The World Championship is a better tournament because it has more teams and muccchhh more cumulative quality, but the Olympics are the most prestigious one, because the Americans say so
going offtopic..
world championship has much more cumulative quality then what, OG?
with three teams from Africa and 4 from Asia, really? cumulative quality...
if you already want to compare quality then compare EC or FIBA Americas with OG.. but not world championship..
btw. I'm not an american and I say olympics are more prestigious..
probably every professional athlete on the world will say so as well..
but I can see why you think differently so I won't continue with the debate over it..

euskadi
09-16-2011, 05:19 PM
:rolleyes:

since drazen past away croatia got 3 medals

and i still wonder how it would look if we didn't have so many absentes and if our federation worked normally since radic got inte federation

since 96. olympics croatia only in 05. played with full rooster where we were robbed big time

and this could be team that would be contender till let say 2007

just for sample 99. and 01. teams could look like

mulamerovic, alanovic, giricek, perasovic, komazec, rimac, z. radulovic, marcelic, kukoc, n. radulovic, golemac, radja, vujcic, prkacin, tabak, kovacic

insted lot of this guys players like henjak, jure ruzic, tomeljak, ivan donald maric

slovenia wasn't strong during ex yugo, but since somwere 02-04., they are haveing probably most talent from all ex yugo teams, but they are consistantly underachiving

most euro teams just started dealing with absentees of kind croatia, serbia, slovenia are dealing over 15 years

agree. we could only imagine what woult be if croatia played with ful roster between 1997. and 2001. ind ahat would happen if giricek, sesar, vujcic, prkacin and mulaomerovic have opportunity to learn from kukoc, radja, komazec... and in 2005. after lamonica and company robbery giricek and vujcic do same. and again planinic, pop, tomas, ukic... stayed alone without class players

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 05:21 PM
The World Championships have a higher number of quality teams, so the cumulative quality is greater

And no, I do not think this because we were second last year, that way I can say that you defend the Olympics because of 1992, stop it five

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 05:22 PM
I don't have an attitude, but you should see Croatia reaching the 2008 games as an exception rather than a normality

Serbia might've missed the Olympic games for the second time in a row, but the two tournament before this they were top 2 and top 4

If 2009's Eurobasket would offer spots for the Olympics then they would be there, so you have to have some luck too.. It's the same Eurobasket, in 2009 it doesn't help you, in 2011 it does..

And I don't think the Olympic Games are the greatest basketball tournament, because 1: it isn't just for basketball, it is one of the many sports and 2: there are very few teams and not even the greatest twelve in the world, and great contenders can't be there because of a bad year

The World Championship is a better tournament because it has more teams and muccchhh more cumulative quality, but the Olympics are the most prestigious one, because the Americans say so

sice last year absentess this year ec is higher than last year wc

and if no nonsense caled willd card it should be croatia that should play in 2008., WC, not turkey

croatia finished 7th in 05. after huge robbery vs. spain over turkey, and trashed turkey in their matchup. still from marketing reasons italy and turkey got WC, not Croatia

so we were more relevant then Turkey in those years

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 05:28 PM
What has that got to do with it though?

I don't say anything about Turkey and just talk about the Balkan countries, where does this comparison with Turkey come from all of a sudden?

NorCal
09-16-2011, 05:35 PM
I don't have an attitude, but you should see Croatia reaching the 2008 games as an exception rather than a normality

Serbia might've missed the Olympic games for the second time in a row, but the two tournament before this they were top 2 and top 4

If 2009's Eurobasket would offer spots for the Olympics then they would be there, so you have to have some luck too.. It's the same Eurobasket, in 2009 it doesn't help you, in 2011 it does..

And I don't think the Olympic Games are the greatest basketball tournament, because 1: it isn't just for basketball, it is one of the many sports and 2: there are very few teams and not even the greatest twelve in the world, and great contenders can't be there because of a bad year

The World Championship is a better tournament because it has more teams and muccchhh more cumulative quality, but the Olympics are the most prestigious one, because the Americans say so

http://forums.interbasket.net/f71/which-is-more-highly-regarded-wbc-14068/

I think the only evidence that WBC is a better tournament has to do with the # of teams playing because it allows for more of the mid-level European teams to play. I can understand that argument but history still shows that the best European players play the years when Olympic qualifying spots are being fought for. Plus, the best players almost always play during the Olympics but the same is not true for the WBC.

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 05:41 PM
What has that got to do with it though?

I don't say anything about Turkey and just talk about the Balkan countries, where does this comparison with Turkey come from all of a sudden?

from WC comparison:rolleyes:

and if you go trouhout history croats and serbs dominate in ex yugo teams from 70is to 90is you would find players like like plecas, djerdja, skansi, solman, tvrdic, cosic, petrovic, radja, kukoc, komazec, vrankovic and so on as stars of ex yugo basketball....and from 70is, to 90is it's croatian teams that won 10 internationl titles, and played multiple finals. with smaller sucses bih was also big factor of ex yu basketball. so before you make some statment inform your self

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 05:47 PM
Good points, especially about the greatest players
WBC's cumulative quality is still higher, but the Olympics' average quality is better, mainly because of the best players showing up, although 25% of the teams will be mediocre at best: Tunisia, Asian champion and Great Britain (I still love you guys tho) and maybe Australia

WBC is much bigger, OG is more exclusive and you're more privileged to be there

The Olympics certainly have a greater weight, but is it a stronger tournament than the WBC? I think the answer is somewhere in the middle..

Raze Lupin
09-16-2011, 05:50 PM
^ Your insight is very good. Really though without intending to be dismissive, it's very complicated. You will find much diversity in opinion in each and every country except perhaps Slovenia. We are people that are just not inclined to unity. Unity is like some kind of submission for us. There is even a unique word in the Serbian language, "inat" that can help to understand us. One definition, "an attitude of proud defiance, stubborness and self-preservation - sometimes to the detriment of everyone else or even oneself."

Please, feel free to discuss politics at non basketball related forums.
JPF

Thanks for this domestic insight. I have often wondered about This Ex-yugo mentality BUT never understood why. I didn't know their was a name for it. I deal with many serbs and a few Bosnians, Croats at my University and now career. The "inat" attitude was apparent in most. Especially the men. I always wondered what was going on. Someone should write a book so westerners will know whats going on too:)

UMUT_FB_LAL
09-16-2011, 05:56 PM
from WC comparison:rolleyes:

and if you go trouhout history croats and serbs dominate in ex yugo teams from 70is to 90is you would find players like like plecas, djerdja, skansi, solman, tvrdic, cosic, petrovic, radja, kukoc, komazec, vrankovic and so on as stars of ex yugo basketball....and from 70is, to 90is it's croatian teams that won 10 internationl titles, and played multiple finals. with smaller sucses bih was also big factor of ex yu basketball. so before you make some statment inform your self

Yeah but I'm talking about what I've seen tho
Since I've been watching I haven't seen that kind of success, you can't keep going back to 1994 and earlier if you are a great basketball country

Since I've been watching Croatia hasn't been great except for 2005

And not to take anything away from those victories, but prizes teams get in this era where basketball has become much more competitive, bigger and kinda global are much more impressing to me than those in the seventies when maybe five countries in Europe played basketball

I do admire the fact that Croatians and Bosnians had such a big impact in those Yugo successes tho...

And the fact that Croatia started winning all those medals immediately after it got independent is really impressive and says a lot

But this century only Serbia and Slovenia have been factors, that's what I'm saying

Didn't know inat was a Serbian word, we use that in Turkey too :D

turk-jugoslav
09-16-2011, 06:09 PM
I hope Yugoslav basketball will shine again:( Croatia has very good young generation and I am hopeful about them.Serbia? I don't know... Slovenia will be nothing in the future... Bosna is always looser Bosna... Macedonia?? Maybe after this championship they can attack... Kosovo?? Haha, I think we will have 2-3 players in our national basketball team who has Kosovar origin:D

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 06:54 PM
Yeah but I'm talking about what I've seen tho
Since I've been watching I haven't seen that kind of success, you can't keep going back to 1994 and earlier if you are a great basketball country

Since I've been watching Croatia hasn't been great except for 2005

And not to take anything away from those victories, but prizes teams get in this era where basketball has become much more competitive, bigger and kinda global are much more impressing to me than those in the seventies when maybe five countries in Europe played basketball

I do admire the fact that Croatians and Bosnians had such a big impact in those Yugo successes tho...

And the fact that Croatia started winning all those medals immediately after it got independent is really impressive and says a lot

But this century only Serbia and Slovenia have been factors, that's what I'm saying
Didn't know inat was a Serbian word, we use that in Turkey too :D

yes when talking nt results

but because of so many absentes croatia was uncompetitive besides 05. and perhaps 08.-09. and 05. was only time we had full squad

so no you can't say "yugoslavian" basketall is serbian, because at that period croatia and slovenia had player base to compete

Picek
09-16-2011, 06:54 PM
Croatia has very good young generation and I am hopeful about them.D
that is something that is often emphasized by our federation, coach, players..
but fact is that this team that was playing at EC was 26 years old in average.
it is probably "young" because most of them had small or none expirience of playing for NT..
but that is because our coaches are always afraid to put young guns into action..
even Repeša for whom I have a high oppinion didn't use Tomić at all eventhough at that time he was rocking ibeing 23 years old....
meanwhile you have Rupnik, Murič, Dragič, (probably the only good thing that will stay behind Maljkovič is giving time to these youngsters) Valenciunas etc. who received playing time..

Joško Poljak Fan
09-16-2011, 06:55 PM
Just because Slovenians do not tend to overhype our youngsters at the age of 18 we will be nothing in the future? :D 91 and 92 generation are pretty promising, we'll get along no worries ;)

Alvertis4
09-16-2011, 06:59 PM
why don't you stockpile the best players from Yugoslavia and make a list of the talent pool available and think how good that team would be? ;)

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 07:17 PM
that is something that is often emphasized by our federation, coach, players..
but fact is that this team that was playing at EC was 26 years old in average.
it is probably "young" because most of them had small or none expirience of playing for NT..
but that is because our coaches are always afraid to put young guns into action..
even Repeša for whom I have a high oppinion didn't use Tomić at all eventhough at that time he was rocking ibeing 23 years old....
meanwhile you have Rupnik, Murič, Dragič, (probably the only good thing that will stay behind Maljkovič is giving time to these youngsters) Valenciunas etc. who received playing time..

not true

repesa involed young markota, barac, rudez, banic and tomic in nt, whille also giving lot of time to ukic and tomas who were involed in 04. qualifycations by spahija

in 09., some of this players were injured and had bad seasons, whille presure to get medal in 09. on him was highest then ever, and some older players like kasun, vujcic decide to return. whille our 86.-89. generations were crap besides exceptions of bogdanovic, tomic and barac. especially 87.-88. with only tomic as high level prospect. so repesa didn't have anyone to invole besides tomic

and like i said here before eb 09., this is our last chance to do something, or we will have to wait another few years. and that now becomes evident. we now only have ukic, tomas, barac, bogdanovic and tomic as established good plaers, but non of them are stars. and few in reality medicore helpers. hopefully some of zubcic-delas generation will be able to establich them self as good playes so will will be abel to keep good level from 2013-15, untill hopefully 94.-96. generationd mature

Picek
09-16-2011, 07:23 PM
Just because Slovenians do not tend to overhype our youngsters at the age of 18 we will be nothing in the future? :D 91 and 92 generation are pretty promising, we'll get along no worries ;)how true is that really? 11-th at U-20 championships for two years in a row..
last two u-18 12. and 10.
U-16 played at B division for two years in a row (won it this year though)
ofcourse these results mostly mean jack shit when it comes to senior level, best example for that is the bronze generation of U-20 team from 2006. but then again there is an example of U-20 gold winning team with E. Lorbek...
those youth results give you a some kind of idea where the future is going, atleast to me..
that was the idea I was following, ofcourse I could be completely wrong about it..

Alyosha12
09-16-2011, 07:28 PM
The way i see it in 2013 we will have

G.Dragic - 27 y/o in his prime and lets hope with a better shot and smarter
B. Udrih - 31 y/o lets hope he plays, he will still be young
G. Vidmar - 26 y/o i hope his injury wont hamper his future development. Last year at the WC and the start of the EL season he looked amazing. He can only get better, he needs to improve his back to the basket game, but we need him very much, he is our only athletic big, and he sets awesome screens.
M. Begic - 28 y/o he needs to get out of Real, he wont get a chance to grow there. He can develop into a very good player.
E. Lorbek - 29 y/o he will still be in his prime.
S. Vujacic - 29 y/o as much as i hate him, we simply need him no way around it. This season at Efes will show what he is made of.
Z. Dragic - 24 y/o he will be entering his prime. He simply has got to improve his shot. No doubt about it, as things stand now he is useless in a swt offense except for off. rebounds. If he adds a solid jumper to his game, we gain a top tier player. Awesome at defense, rebounding, athleticism and offense.
B. Nachbar - 33 y/o he will be in the twilight of his career but i bet he will be able to contribute some, and help with experience.
U.Slokar- 30 y/o will still be in his prime, lets hope he stops being so soft by then.

We will still be a very good NT who will be allowed to dream about a medal. Most of these players will be able to play still in 2015, and lets hope by then some bright youngster emerges.

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 07:40 PM
how true is that really? 11-th at U-20 championships for two years in a row..
last two u-18 12. and 10.
U-16 played at B division for two years in a row (won it this year though)
ofcourse these results mostly mean jack shit when it comes to senior level, best example for that is the bronze generation of U-20 team from 2006. but then again there is an example of U-20 gold winning team with E. Lorbek...
those youth results give you a some kind of idea where the future is going, atleast to me..
that was the idea I was following, ofcourse I could be completely wrong about it..

1994 u-18 2nd
1996 u-18 1st
1998 u-18 2nd
2000 u-18 2nd
2002 u-18 1st

back then yuth turnaments were evry 2nd year

why we didn't dominate euro basketball?

1st u-12 basketball doesn't translate to u-14, u-14 to u-16, u-16 to u-18, u-18 to u-20, and especially yuth basketball doesn't translate to senior level

2nd, just because great britan didn't won anything at yuth level, that doesn't mean devon van oostrum isn't one of most talented young players in europe

Cojayar
09-16-2011, 07:41 PM
...
Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story.
...
Very nice and complete analysis. But ...

It is actually Mirotic who wants to play for Spain.
He lives there since he was 14 years old and feels like a Spaniard.

Picek
09-16-2011, 07:48 PM
1994 u-18 2nd
1996 u-18 1st
1998 u-18 2nd
2000 u-18 2nd
2002 u-18 1st

back then yuth turnaments were evry 2nd year

why we didn't dominate euro basketball?

1st u-12 basketball doesn't translate to u-14, u-14 to u-16, u-16 to u-18, u-18 to u-20, and especially yuth basketball doesn't translate to senior level

2nd, just because great britan didn't won anything at yuth level, that doesn't mean devon van oostrum isn't one of most talented young players in europeyou do know how to read, right? which part of this you didn't understand?
"ofcourse these results mostly mean jack shit when it comes to senior level"

Picek
09-16-2011, 07:51 PM
The way i see it in 2013 we will have

G.Dragic - 27 y/o in his prime and lets hope with a better shot and smarter
B. Udrih - 31 y/o lets hope he plays, he will still be young
G. Vidmar - 26 y/o i hope his injury wont hamper his future development. Last year at the WC and the start of the EL season he looked amazing. He can only get better, he needs to improve his back to the basket game, but we need him very much, he is our only athletic big, and he sets awesome screens.
M. Begic - 28 y/o he needs to get out of Real, he wont get a chance to grow there. He can develop into a very good player.
E. Lorbek - 29 y/o he will still be in his prime.
S. Vujacic - 29 y/o as much as i hate him, we simply need him no way around it. This season at Efes will show what he is made of.
Z. Dragic - 24 y/o he will be entering his prime. He simply has got to improve his shot. No doubt about it, as things stand now he is useless in a swt offense except for off. rebounds. If he adds a solid jumper to his game, we gain a top tier player. Awesome at defense, rebounding, athleticism and offense.
B. Nachbar - 33 y/o he will be in the twilight of his career but i bet he will be able to contribute some, and help with experience.
U.Slokar- 30 y/o will still be in his prime, lets hope he stops being so soft by then.

when you put it like this there is one problem, no "modern" PF in the team..
no Smodiš like type of player.. or are you missing someone?

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 07:54 PM
when you put it like this there is one problem, no "modern" PF in the team..
no Smodiš like type of player.. or are you missing someone?

spain doesn't have "moden" pf

ihmo, there is one iteresting kid vranjkovic or something like that who can jack 3is

Picek
09-16-2011, 07:57 PM
spain doesn't have "moden" pf

do you see Pau or Navarro in any of these players mentioned?


why don't you stockpile the best players from Yugoslavia and make a list of the talent pool available and think how good that team would be? ;)

I think we are all over that..
simply, the yugoslav team from the 90's would probably be best team ever in history of basketball.. there I said it, better then dream team..
and since that team fall apart, making a new one even if just on paper looks really pointless..

Alyosha12
09-16-2011, 07:59 PM
when you put it like this there is one problem, no "modern" PF in the team..
no Smodiš like type of player.. or are you missing someone?

Well i agree with you and as i was writing that i saw we are very weak at PF. Lets hope some young guy emerges, but i have my doubts though. May be Nachbar will be able to step down for a few minutes but i doubt that as well. We are set at every other position though.

Slokar would be perfect if he was aggressive and not soft as tissue paper.

Alyosha12
09-16-2011, 08:00 PM
do you see Pau or Navarro in any of these players mentioned?

Do you see Pau or Navarro in any other NT though? Lets be honest no NT except Spain has quality at every position and even Spain has a weak PG position tbh.

Picek
09-16-2011, 08:04 PM
Do you see Pau or Navarro in any other NT though? ofcourse not, that is the reason why it is pointless to discuss about Spain needing a a modern PF..
with those two guys and the rest of the crew they really don't need one..

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 08:11 PM
macedonia doesn't have shooter, macedonia doesn't have wing

or do you see navarro and gasol

basketball is simple game, not complicated

pimpekaustas
09-16-2011, 08:19 PM
even if all today's players from ex yu countries play in one team i don't think there would be much quality diference (only longer bench), and they certainly wouldn't get gold. a lot of very good players but none of them isn't superstar, nobody can compare to toni dino dražen bodiroga divac etc or to dirk, pau, parker and nowitzki

euskadi
09-16-2011, 08:26 PM
1994 u-18 2nd
1996 u-18 1st
1998 u-18 2nd
2000 u-18 2nd
2002 u-18 1st

back then yuth turnaments were evry 2nd year

why we didn't dominate euro basketball?

1st u-12 basketball doesn't translate to u-14, u-14 to u-16, u-16 to u-18, u-18 to u-20, and especially yuth basketball doesn't translate to senior level

2nd, just because great britan didn't won anything at yuth level, that doesn't mean devon van oostrum isn't one of most talented young players in europe

giricek, vujcic, bagaric, zizic, kasun, planinic, popovic, tomas and ukic are best players ( or one of best ) in all that medal tournaments. and only lamonica, dovidavicius and drabikovsky stand between them and medal ( probably gold ) in eb 2005. and who knows what would be later. maybe because of that planinic becomes epic choker. tomas gain role player mentality. giricek and vujcic retairs from nt....

domination in youth tournaments does not means that all players would be great players but certainly does not meas that team whic takes 12. place have more then one, two solid players

Picek
09-16-2011, 08:36 PM
giricek, vujcic, bagaric, zizic, kasun, planinic, popovic, tomas and ukic are best players ( or one of best ) in all that medal tournaments. and only lamonica, dovidavicius and drabikovsky stand between them and medal ( probably gold ) in eb 2005. and who knows what would be later. maybe because of that planinic becomes epic choker. tomas gain role player mentality. giricek and vujcic retairs from nt....

now, don't push it..
that team from 2005. had to play a playoff game already against Italy because Lithuania dismantled us in the group stage..
and against Italy it wasn't an easy game..
besides, what's the point of bringing that up again?
part of the problem of our basketball is that we all like to live in the past..

euskadi
09-16-2011, 08:37 PM
all that slovenian great players lakovic, smodis, brezec, becirovic, nahbar, lorbek, dragic played in eurobasket u20 finals. they won twice and lose once. vidmar, klobucar and preldzic are 5.

so it is stupid to expect that slovenia continue to play great role with all that mediocre talents. and they are mediocre if they won 8. 10. 12. or so places

euskadi
09-16-2011, 08:40 PM
now, don't push it..
that team from 2005. had to play a playoff game already against Italy because Lithuania dismantled us in the group stage..
and against Italy it wasn't an easy game..
besides, what's the point of bringing that up again?
part of the problem of our basketball is that we all like to live in the past..

point is to point out that all those players are close to translate medal from youth tournaments in senior level medal. and why not gold? we played great bball back then

and after that tournament everything fall apart. that generation never gets second chance

Robimkd
09-16-2011, 08:42 PM
macedonia doesn't have shooter, macedonia doesn't have wing

or do you see navarro and gasol

basketball is simple game, not complicated

Macedonia have 5 playes in the starting line up (When Gec plays) that can score from the arc. This is very unuseal.

Whats wrong with Vojdan Stojanovski ? one of the best wingers during the EC bothe in O and D and mostly in D. Maybe your blinde ?.

pohani komarac
09-16-2011, 08:49 PM
giricek, vujcic, bagaric, zizic, kasun, planinic, popovic, tomas and ukic are best players ( or one of best ) in all that medal tournaments. and only lamonica, dovidavicius and drabikovsky stand between them and medal ( probably gold ) in eb 2005. and who knows what would be later. maybe because of that planinic becomes epic choker. tomas gain role player mentality. giricek and vujcic retairs from nt....

domination in youth tournaments does not means that all players would be great players but certainly does not meas that team whic takes 12. place have more then one, two solid players

80.-81. generation is most trophy one in yuth basketball, and gived stojic, bagaric, sundov, kasun....and kasun was bench warmer who could only dunk

86.-87. generation couldn't qualify to u-ec, a qualifycations were in croatia:eek: and barac at that time was 210 cetar, not having place in team, whille tomic just reached 215 and 22kg and couldn't play even against cadets

so, when you look at players at yuth level you don't look how good they are, but you look what they have that they will be able to translate on senior level, what they won't be able to translate on senior lever and where is room and how much do they have room to impruve

when i said 2 years ago i doubt prostran will not ipruve and become anything better then miljan pavkovic, not to metnion star i was atacked by lot of people, especially by his brother

he has evrything of star, even size isn't problem, rather then very week structure of his body. and 90.-91. generation was good, mostley because of his playmaking and leadership. playmaking that any of our pg's can dream about

euskadi
09-16-2011, 09:06 PM
80.-81. generation is most trophy one in yuth basketball, and gived stojic, bagaric, sundov, kasun....and kasun was bench warmer who could only dunk

86.-87. generation couldn't qualify to u-ec, a qualifycations were in croatia:eek: and barac at that time was 210 cetar, not having place in team, whille tomic just reached 215 and 22kg and couldn't play even against cadets

so, when you look at players at yuth level you don't look how good they are, but you look what they have that they will be able to translate on senior level, what they won't be able to translate on senior lever and where is room and how much do they have room to impruve

when i said 2 years ago i doubt prostran will not ipruve and become anything better then miljan pavkovic, not to metnion star i was atacked by lot of people, especially by his brother

he has evrything of star, even size isn't problem, rather then very week structure of his body. and 90.-91. generation was good, mostley because of his playmaking and leadership. playmaking that any of our pg's can dream about

agree. being dominant in youth does not mean that you will translate that in senior level. and there is posibility that one weak youth team has extra talented player

but, i give you slovenian example... all their stars dominate in youth level. even better spain, they won all they can. serbian 86. , 87 and 88. generation.... most of curent superstars or stars dominate in youth competition. with team or at least by individual stats. so that youth competitions can show as who could be star.

our generation is too young. but if they manage to dominate till u20 championship then we could expect something big

Southpaw
09-16-2011, 10:16 PM
do you see Pau or Navarro in any of these players mentioned?



I think we are all over that..
simply, the yugoslav team from the 90's would probably be best team ever in history of basketball.. there I said it, better then dream team..
and since that team fall apart, making a new one even if just on paper looks really pointless..

Better than Dream Team. LMAO. Dream on.

Legend
09-16-2011, 10:39 PM
the problem with ex-yu basketball is the it's going down the same path as its football. As soon as someone shows any talent agents jump in and dictate the players life.

secondly all of the so called great masters of ex-yu basketball haven't been teaching younger generations instead they teach foreign teams and countries.

thirdly the poor state of life and economy of the ex-yu countries has caused the sport federations great deal of pain as high levels of corruption have infiltrated the organizations. as long as that's the case basketball and every other sport is slowly going to die in ex-yu.

fourthly the top teams aren't producing enough talents but at the same time they want results so they go for a simple and quick fix and that's to bring in average to slightly above average foreigners.So the talents that these teams do have get to warm the bench for entire season just so that the teams can have some type of a good result in europe. The talents that do play for smaller teams are quickly sold to european teams and so they get to experience bench warming in different countries :D

Partizan in its last 10 years of domination has only contributed 2 worthy NT players in Velickovic and Krstic... that's completely ridiculous from a team that has had many talents go through their ranks. the latest Partizan victim is Branisalav Djekic and i'm afraid that the same thing is going to happen to Bogdanovic and Miljenovic....

Dusan Kecman played in every single game(67) last season with 1518 minutes in total.
Bogdan Bogdanovic on other hand played 14 games with 87 minutes in total.

Why does Kecman a 34 year old player get that many minutes while a great prospect in Bogdanovic gets to warm the bench?

btw Djekic played 27 games for a total of 262 minutes. WOW!

the stats come from the offical Partizan website

tiro1
09-16-2011, 11:23 PM
Wasn't there a thread like that a couple of years back? Or was it more?

Steve187
09-17-2011, 12:09 AM
I was thinking...
If the ex-Yugoslavian countries somehow were able to make a united basketball team under the management of a good coach (say Duda) they would pretty much be unbeatable.

It's not as if there is less talent than the time of Divac and Petrovic it's mostly that the talent is almost evenly fragmented. I mean 6 countries out of (what was) a country no bigger than Spain? Gimme a break

Think about it, a united Yugoslavian team would be full in all positions. A "country" roughly the size of Spain *still* can produce a better team than Spain... if only it was possible it would be an interesting sight to see.

damelo
09-17-2011, 12:45 AM
Very nice and complete analysis. But ...

It is actually Mirotic who wants to play for Spain.
He lives there since he was 14 years old and feels like a Spaniard.

So, just take it as a kickback for all the Spanish articles about how many French players are not born in france :D

If any player that can not make Team USA 1 say they want to play, Spanish Fed will probably accept them and Spain may not need Gasols and Navarro.

Sorry for Off Topic, I'm getting back to the subject after that.

damelo
09-17-2011, 12:50 AM
what nation has to do with country?:confused:

True. The question was not posed the right way.

How can the national feeling transpose in the Balkans today? There are lots of players who could be from different countries. What is the impact of separation of Serbia and Montenegro, for example, in this field?

Since many players do not come to NT, is it a major factor?

(When you see these French guys, they are all like crazy for France, saying how proud they are, looking to go to the Olympics at any price, etc...)

pimpekaustas
09-17-2011, 04:42 AM
I mean 6 countries out of (what was) a country no bigger than Spain? Gimme a break

"country" roughly the size of Spain *still* can produce a better team than Spain...

for the hundredth time :rolleyes: spain has 46 milion people, ex yu countries 23 milions ;)

Perseus
09-17-2011, 06:45 AM
Tesla,

we use the word inat too,we have a proverb (to ginati vgazi mati) i don't know if i can translate it properly

"the inat plucks out eye"

pohani komarac
09-17-2011, 07:33 AM
"inat" is actually turkish word

in Croatia in Dalmatia they use "Dišpet", (deshpet), as similar meanig

curentley macedonia from "inat" just told europe. f... of all, we are better and we will beat you you like it or not:cool:

and that is fact, balkanians function much better when evrything is against them

pohani komarac
09-17-2011, 08:05 AM
True. The question was not posed the right way.

How can the national feeling transpose in the Balkans today? There are lots of players who could be from different countries. What is the impact of separation of Serbia and Montenegro, for example, in this field?

Since many players do not come to NT, is it a major factor?

(When you see these French guys, they are all like crazy for France, saying how proud they are, looking to go to the Olympics at any price, etc...)

when talking about national fealings

literlly, from vilage to vilage is difrent

curently probably in macedonia they have strongest national feelings, from "inat" because of their name and indentity problems....so greeks, if you wannt them to change their name be good to them and support them:D

probably with them go western herzegovina croats, again from "inat"


personally i belive lot of players absentes are more conected to thretment of people. they just get sick of it

when they are doing good, people give them lot of love. when things are going down...uh,...sometimes it goes that far that they get beaten. also when doing good at first evrybody loves them, but one thing balkanians can't forgive is other man happines and sucses. you would think when radja, kukoc, ivanisevic wallk trough streets of croatia you would assume evryone says high, wannt to take picture with them etc.? wrong. some times it is like that, but mostley people would just roll their eyes and say to their friend: here is that cheep bustard". even bogut gets same tretment in us from croatian comunity. only drazen petrovic and kreso cosic are ones that are never spit on and it's only because they are dead. sounds brutaly, but truth:(

Perseus
09-17-2011, 08:29 AM
so greeks, if you wannt them to change their name be good to them and support them


we supported them a lot ,we even gave them military aid,but here in Greece we say

ουδεις πιο αχαριστος του ευεργετηθεντος

i can't translate this one maybe the other Greeks...

Alvertis4
09-17-2011, 11:45 AM
we supported them a lot ,we even gave them military aid,but here in Greece we say

ουδεις πιο αχαριστος του ευεργετηθεντος

i can't translate this one maybe the other Greeks...

No one is worse than the benefited ungrateful

Steve187
09-17-2011, 12:30 PM
for the hundredth time :rolleyes: spain has 46 milion people, ex yu countries 23 milions ;)

I know I meant *size* (how big it is on the map), not population-wise. Having players coming from a larger territory (i.e. a greater genetic pool), is always better than having 10 millions in one city.

In the case of Yugoslavia, you would have Central Europe (Slovenia), Dinaric Alps (many countries), down to the territory of Macedonia. A pan-western Balkans' dream team. Too bad that I won't see it in my lifetime :( (and I was too young to remember the old united Yugoslavian team)... also maybe it's the only way for you guys to become serious contenders for the gold (on ALL levels) again.

Genjuro
09-17-2011, 12:49 PM
I've got a Spanish friend named Juanan Hinojo who has written a book on Yugoslavian basketball (called Stolen Dreams) after interviewing dozens of people in the process (travelling to Zagreb, Split, Belgrade or Sarajevo, among other places). The book is extremely brilliant IMO, focused on the Golden eighties generation, but digging also into the whole Yugoslavian system and history. It is soon to be translated to Balkan languages, and he has even created a website with interview cuts, basketball clips and some other stuff (still only in Spanish, but will be translated as well in the near future): http://www.baloncestoyugoslavo.com/

Anyway, the guy has explained his opinion on Croatian basketball at the ACB Forum: http://foros.acb.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=428777&start=1545

I think it's a great read. I've done a quick translation and it might be a bit rough, but I think it's very easy to understand.


"Croatia advocated, with the independence, for a kind of denial to anything that reminded of Yugoslavia. At all levels: social, cultural, political... In basketball, the Yugoslav system at the time of the collapse was mostly Serbian. And in the new Croatian basketball, the ideological leaders kind of purged looking for the essence of a Croatian basketball that had spent many years without being "pure" due to mixing with the influences brought by the various coaches that were there: Maljkovic, Sakota, Djurovic, Ivkovic...

In these circumstances, it seems very significant the different type of speeches between former players and coaches who lived the Croatian era, from those who lived the Yugoslav-Serbian. That is, those who played in the seventies (teams were directed by domestic coaches) and those who played in the eighties, with the arrival of many Serbian coaches.

Keep in mind that the symposium which brings together the 66 best coaches of Yugoslavia in Belgrade to unify criteria in all categories (I do have the report made by Zeravica, Novosel and Boris Kristancic) happened in 1971. This has two readings. On the one hand, chronological: it still took some years to see the consequences of these theoretical precepts reflected in senior basketball. On the other hand, the context: this is the splendor period of Nikolic's Ignis Varese, ergo, he's outside of the country and it's Zeravica's and Novosel's decade of influence, and especially Novosel (Zeravica is a hybrid in many ways, he demands discipline but leaves complete freedom in their offensive players) had the opposite ideology of the Belgrade School commanded by Nikolic's students that would eventually transform the Croatian basketball... but in the next decade. The exception in the eighties would be limited to Cibona Zagreb, the reservation of Mirko Novosel.

Thus, players and coaches of that decade that I interviewed, as Djerdja, Skansi, Jerkov, or a representative of Cibona's eighties exception Aza Petrovic, they defend a way to do and a very different basketball to what prevailed in the former Yugoslavia. I emphasize "a way to do" because we talk about training methods, strength, demands, discipline, tactical depth... not only if a basketball is more offensive or defensive. That people are totally oppossed to the last Yugoslav School. By contrast, those brought up in contact with that school (Cvjeticanin, Radja, Tabak...) believe that the Serbian school is better and many of its precepts should be implemented.

But the rulers of the Federation have always been the representatives of the classic Croatian trend with Novosel at the top at first and Radic as president today. It is no coincidence the name of the first coaches since the independence: Novosel, Aza Petrovic, Skansi, Djerdja. And that preference when choosing the coaches is also extended to the junior level, both in teams and in clubs.

Thus, youth Croatian basketball is full of anarchic teams that work little, play five players for forty minutes, have little joint planning and coordination... Add to the equation the presence of agent groups with broad influence in the creation of rosters and NTs (although that problem is common to the whole Balkans) and it results that it can not work because it already fails from the very base. It's a structural problem, not cyclical.

For now, the failure of the NT in this Eurobasket seems to have led to a popular movement calling for Radic resignation. All former players from the last batch that I asked were totally against the policy and ways of the Croat federation. The change goes through a regeneration and the entry of new ideas.

I do not want it to sound like the Serbian School is the panacea, because it is not. The Serbian basketball is not that vastly superior, but the image of the national team weighs heavily in the opinion. And Serbia has a good NT, but the state of basketball is far from ideal. Beyond the 12-15 men's group led by Ivkovic there's not much else. Another thing is that Serbia has a great coach and that the NT in the end resembles a club (they've spent several summers with the same core) making them play well and optimize the talent of each player. Few teams are closer to maximize thier theoretical performing level than the Serbian. But hey, that's another debate. What I mean is that the Serbian basketball is not exemplary, but compared to Croatian it's almost a sporting pipe dream.

I'd like to see Saric, Hezonja, Bogdanovic or Tomic in another environment. Current and earlier. Because I do not think Serbia is creating better prospects. What it does is burning and deforming them".

Veliki_AS
09-17-2011, 01:02 PM
spain doesn't have "moden" pf

ihmo, there is one iteresting kid vranjkovic or something like that who can jack 3is

Marko Vranjkovic (born in 1990, from Maribor, now playing for Helios Domzale) is prototype of next modern forward in Slovenia. Much more than Muric brothers because of his versatility (also his former club Primorac Branik was junior champion in Slovenia against Muric's Parklji Ljubljana) . He has been on injury list almost complete last year, hidden from the eyes of public and his health will be main factor in future.
In youth categories played under the rim until his 15 year, then famous Mario Primorac started to transform him into forward. Some see him as a legitimate next Nachbar, not Smodis:rolleyes:;)
The only huge problem is that his next coach is Zmago Sagadin, who is not optimal coach for developing such a players at all. Remember, Bostjan Nachbar in 1998 left Olimpija Ljubljana (coached by Sagadin) in the middle of season, then he returned to Maribor and later next year he ended on loan from Benneton in Pivovarna Lasko (coached by Ales Pipan:cool:)

pohani komarac
09-17-2011, 03:47 PM
I know I meant *size* (how big it is on the map), not population-wise. Having players coming from a larger territory (i.e. a greater genetic pool), is always better than having 10 millions in one city.

In the case of Yugoslavia, you would have Central Europe (Slovenia), Dinaric Alps (many countries), down to the territory of Macedonia. A pan-western Balkans' dream team. Too bad that I won't see it in my lifetime :( (and I was too young to remember the old united Yugoslavian team)... also maybe it's the only way for you guys to become serious contenders for the gold (on ALL levels) again.

bit off (a lot actually:D) first croatian imigrants were dinaric croats who moved mostley to andolusia as paid army, workers etc. 900 years ago. some numbers say about 100000 most of them runned away latter, but still there is about 4% dna in spain that is dominate in dalmatia and herzegovina. that might explain gasol brothers:D

joke aside....most my balkanians drag how good we are with small base, but actually we have larger base than most coutries. lot countries can't find 210 guy in years and i already know 4 guys born 96. that will probably reach 210+. so we can be bad only do to bad wor, not small base

Steve187
09-17-2011, 04:02 PM
bit off (a lot actually:D) first croatian imigrants were dinaric croats who moved mostley to andolusia as paid army, workers etc. 900 years ago. some numbers say about 100000 most of them runned away latter, but still there is about 4% dna in spain that is dominate in dalmatia and herzegovina. that might explain gasol brothers:D

joke aside....most my balkanians drag how good we are with small base, but actually we have larger base than most coutries. lot countries can't find 210 guy in years and i already know 4 guys born 96. that will probably reach 210+. so we can be bad only do to bad wor, not small base

What I said was that Yugoslavian genetic base is *comparable* with Spain's (in the first case is almost the whole of Iberia, in the second most of Western Balkans).

As for the height thing, the Dinaric Alps is easily the "tallest" place in the world. I think in average the Dinarics (those who live along the dinaric alps) are 3-4 cm taller than the Dutch, the fact that you guys play BB makes it even more probable to create a dream team if you wanted to...

pohani komarac
09-17-2011, 04:24 PM
I've got a Spanish friend named Juanan Hinojo who has written a book on Yugoslavian basketball (called Stolen Dreams) after interviewing dozens of people in the process (travelling to Zagreb, Split, Belgrade or Sarajevo, among other places). The book is extremely brilliant IMO, focused on the Golden eighties generation, but digging also into the whole Yugoslavian system and history. It is soon to be translated to Balkan languages, and he has even created a website with interview cuts, basketball clips and some other stuff (still only in Spanish, but will be translated as well in the near future): http://www.baloncestoyugoslavo.com/

Anyway, the guy has explained his opinion on Croatian basketball at the ACB Forum: http://foros.acb.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=428777&start=1545

I think it's a great read. I've done a quick translation and it might be a bit rough, but I think it's very easy to understand.


"Croatia advocated, with the independence, for a kind of denial to anything that reminded of Yugoslavia. At all levels: social, cultural, political... In basketball, the Yugoslav system at the time of the collapse was mostly Serbian. And in the new Croatian basketball, the ideological leaders kind of purged looking for the essence of a Croatian basketball that had spent many years without being "pure" due to mixing with the influences brought by the various coaches that were there: Maljkovic, Sakota, Djurovic, Ivkovic...

In these circumstances, it seems very significant the different type of speeches between former players and coaches who lived the Croatian era, from those who lived the Yugoslav-Serbian. That is, those who played in the seventies (teams were directed by domestic coaches) and those who played in the eighties, with the arrival of many Serbian coaches.

Keep in mind that the symposium which brings together the 66 best coaches of Yugoslavia in Belgrade to unify criteria in all categories (I do have the report made by Zeravica, Novosel and Boris Kristancic) happened in 1971. This has two readings. On the one hand, chronological: it still took some years to see the consequences of these theoretical precepts reflected in senior basketball. On the other hand, the context: this is the splendor period of Nikolic's Ignis Varese, ergo, he's outside of the country and it's Zeravica's and Novosel's decade of influence, and especially Novosel (Zeravica is a hybrid in many ways, he demands discipline but leaves complete freedom in their offensive players) had the opposite ideology of the Belgrade School commanded by Nikolic's students that would eventually transform the Croatian basketball... but in the next decade. The exception in the eighties would be limited to Cibona Zagreb, the reservation of Mirko Novosel.

Thus, players and coaches of that decade that I interviewed, as Djerdja, Skansi, Jerkov, or a representative of Cibona's eighties exception Aza Petrovic, they defend a way to do and a very different basketball to what prevailed in the former Yugoslavia. I emphasize "a way to do" because we talk about training methods, strength, demands, discipline, tactical depth... not only if a basketball is more offensive or defensive. That people are totally oppossed to the last Yugoslav School. By contrast, those brought up in contact with that school (Cvjeticanin, Radja, Tabak...) believe that the Serbian school is better and many of its precepts should be implemented.

But the rulers of the Federation have always been the representatives of the classic Croatian trend with Novosel at the top at first and Radic as president today. It is no coincidence the name of the first coaches since the independence: Novosel, Aza Petrovic, Skansi, Djerdja. And that preference when choosing the coaches is also extended to the junior level, both in teams and in clubs.

Thus, youth Croatian basketball is full of anarchic teams that work little, play five players for forty minutes, have little joint planning and coordination... Add to the equation the presence of agent groups with broad influence in the creation of rosters and NTs (although that problem is common to the whole Balkans) and it results that it can not work because it already fails from the very base. It's a structural problem, not cyclical.

For now, the failure of the NT in this Eurobasket seems to have led to a popular movement calling for Radic resignation. All former players from the last batch that I asked were totally against the policy and ways of the Croat federation. The change goes through a regeneration and the entry of new ideas.

I do not want it to sound like the Serbian School is the panacea, because it is not. The Serbian basketball is not that vastly superior, but the image of the national team weighs heavily in the opinion. And Serbia has a good NT, but the state of basketball is far from ideal. Beyond the 12-15 men's group led by Ivkovic there's not much else. Another thing is that Serbia has a great coach and that the NT in the end resembles a club (they've spent several summers with the same core) making them play well and optimize the talent of each player. Few teams are closer to maximize thier theoretical performing level than the Serbian. But hey, that's another debate. What I mean is that the Serbian basketball is not exemplary, but compared to Croatian it's almost a sporting pipe dream.

I'd like to see Saric, Hezonja, Bogdanovic or Tomic in another environment. Current and earlier. Because I do not think Serbia is creating better prospects. What it does is burning and deforming them".

that is truth

for what ever reason people who runn our basketball are 100% convinced our basketball school is great, always defend that with medals from yuth categories wich is product of talent and height domination more than good work. insted of consitantly impruving, ivolving good methods from other schools our leaders don't alow that. i posted same theory before this year u-19 wc about our game plan system from 99% coaches. 1-2 stars that can do what ever they wannt, 3-4 helpers and rest are bench warmers. buch of good prospects like very athletic olivari or marcinkovic were destroyed because all they did in zadar was watching prostran do what ever he wannts

i think there was article about our 89. generation on ACB portal few years ago as wasted talent. metnionig how bad influace darko kuce has on our players...guess what, kunce is now istructor and director of all yuth categories in croatia:rolleyes:

and it's not that we don't have coaches. slavko trninic and miso starcevic are great yuth coaches, but they don't have place in our basketball or their methods because they are products of serbian aca nikolic basketball school

unfortunally nothing can't change

our federation has 21 regions, and their representitives are voating machines. all of them have some places in our basketball federations, geting good money for that. in return they vote for radic and his decsion. so despite evrey croat would point radic and co. as first to blame for situation he always gets 100% of votes.

one itresting story. we have so called "expert advice", with some names like spahija, pavlicevic, anzulavoc...and they are in charge for electing coaches of nt's....whille radic defended him self he choose vrankovic because he knew anzulovic wouln't do anything, but wasn't sure about vrakovic. also stated he tought perasovic is not itrested in taking over nt when asked about him (actually he is, but is not member of any klan)....wich prety much says "expet advice" only votes for what he says

so we can only hope saric, hezonja and other will somehowe develope properly. that's only hope and is very small hope based on previus expiriance:(

euskadi
09-17-2011, 04:26 PM
it is funny that whole dinaric alps area are filled with tall people adn we still manage to find 3 shortest pg-s on tournament.

we are joking that short people plays football and actually 99% of our football players ( national team ) are lot taller than our point guards :rolleyes:

it is embarrassing that we dont have much 190 cm+ point guards

pohani komarac
09-17-2011, 04:46 PM
it is funny that whole dinaric alps area are filled with tall people adn we still manage to find 3 shortest pg-s on tournament.

we are joking that short people plays football and actually 99% of our football players ( national team ) are lot taller than our point guards :rolleyes:

it is embarrassing that we dont have much 190 cm+ point guards

pg is position that asks lot of knowlege. it asks a lot of time and work for pg to realize what he has in him self. pg position is position with bigest competition in world. and there we suck

some people say you need to born as pg wich is not truth. centars are born. guy grove to 210, you teach him 2-3 moves and you get your self centar. for pg that's not case

Sitting Bull
09-17-2011, 04:50 PM
Bjelica would do a better job defending and rebounding at 3, 4 or 5 than either of Serbias current player are able to. Perhaps even on the guard positions.

kecal
09-17-2011, 04:53 PM
it is funny that whole dinaric alps area are filled with tall people adn we still manage to find 3 shortest pg-s on tournament.

we are joking that short people plays football and actually 99% of our football players ( national team ) are lot taller than our point guards :rolleyes:

it is embarrassing that we dont have much 190 cm+ point guards

Well, at least you do have 3 PGs on your team... there are only 2 PGs worthy of that name in the whole of Lithuania (not counting unexperienced youth who may show something in the future)... It's embarassing we do not have any <190 cm point guards...

Genjuro
09-17-2011, 04:59 PM
that is truth

for what ever reason people who runn our basketball are 100% convinced our basketball school is great, always defend that with medals from yuth categories wich is product of talent and height domination more than good work. insted of consitantly impruving, ivolving good methods from other schools our leaders don't alow that. i posted same theory before this year u-19 wc about our game plan system from 99% coaches. 1-2 stars that can do what ever they wannt, 3-4 helpers and rest are bench warmers. buch of good prospects like very athletic olivari or marcinkovic were destroyed because all they did in zadar was watching prostran do what ever he wannts

i think there was article about our 89. generation on ACB portal few years ago as wasted talent. metnionig how bad influace darko kuce has on our players...guess what, kunce is now istructor and director of all yuth categories in croatia:rolleyes:

and it's not that we don't have coaches. slavko trninic and miso starcevic are great yuth coaches, but they don't have place in our basketball or their methods because they are products of serbian aca nikolic basketball school

unfortunally nothing can't change

our federation has 21 regions, and their representitives are voating machines. all of them have some places in our basketball federations, geting good money for that. in return they vote for radic and his decsion. so despite evrey croat would point radic and co. as first to blame for situation he always gets 100% of votes.

one itresting story. we have so called "expert advice", with some names like spahija, pavlicevic, anzulavoc...and they are in charge for electing coaches of nt's....whille radic defended him self he choose vrankovic because he knew anzulovic wouln't do anything, but wasn't sure about vrakovic. also stated he tought perasovic is not itrested in taking over nt when asked about him (actually he is, but is not member of any klan)....wich prety much says "expet advice" only votes for what he says

so we can only hope saric, hezonja and other will somehowe develope properly. that's only hope and is very small hope based on previus expiriance:(
Very interesting stuff. It's sad to see Trninic out of the current Croatian system (in the book Trninic is mentioned various times as one of the top, if not the best, talent developer in Yugoslavia, which virtually means in the whole Europe). Perasovic style is more "Serbian" than "Croatian", so it makes sense that he's not liked by the Federation.

Juanan, the book's author, has eventually made the comparision of the couple Saric-Hezonja with Zemljic-Sesar, warning that it might happen the same to them. I don't like many things that are being done, like Hezonja doing whatever he wants in the U16 team or Saric playing entire games at the U19 WC just to learn afterwards that he has some back injury.

Actually it's kind of funny that, after the globalization, the Croatian is the most recognizable youth school nowadays: you know their youth teams will play only 6-7 guys, the stars won't leave the court unless they are fouled out and they have almost complete freedom on court. It doesn't matter whether it's Cibona, Zadar or Zagreb. Everytime I see any of them it's the same.

Carick235
09-17-2011, 05:10 PM
don't write nonsense. in ex yu teams the majority of players always came from croatia. in every single tournament more than 50% players were croats. now serbia is better, but that doesn't mean yugo basket means serbia :rolleyes:

his focus was only on recent results of Serbia (FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro), so he is right in some way, but again Croatia have same potential as Serbia, just dont know what was problem to achieve some big results.

pohani komarac
09-17-2011, 06:04 PM
Very interesting stuff. It's sad to see Trninic out of the current Croatian system (in the book Trninic is mentioned various times as one of the top, if not the best, talent developer in Yugoslavia, which virtually means in the whole Europe). Perasovic style is more "Serbian" than "Croatian", so it makes sense that he's not liked by the Federation.

Juanan, the book's author, has eventually made the comparision of the couple Saric-Hezonja with Zemljic-Sesar, warning that it might happen the same to them. I don't like many things that are being done, like Hezonja doing whatever he wants in the U16 team or Saric playing entire games at the U19 WC just to learn afterwards that he has some back injury.

Actually it's kind of funny that, after the globalization, the Croatian is the most recognizable youth school nowadays: you know their youth teams will play only 6-7 guys, the stars won't leave the court unless they are fouled out and they have almost complete freedom on court. It doesn't matter whether it's Cibona, Zadar or Zagreb. Everytime I see any of them it's the same.

here is another part of my theory

as 2nd thing you can recognize croats is? choking and not playing to win


well maybe it's some part of mentality, but not 100% lot of it it's created. i'm sure because i see our kids lot of times performing when it matters.

most of it it's more created, then "born with"

for sample ukic, tomas and tomic had same treatment in zagreb and split in senior basketball, or bogdanovic this year. they were marked as projects to sell. it wasn't matter do they win, lose, playe bad. only it was important to pump their stats. whille also getting some help from refs. so not that you get only uderdeveloped players who can't fit in normal system for 3-4 years, you also created double loosers. they get used to loosing. nobady can tell me it's their mentality because they had no problems winnig gold when were kids. it's their teached mentality. as for double loosers, other group of players, "helpers", are teached just to step beside when it mathers. if you watched how 94. u-16 almost collapsed in semis when saric fouled out. nobady can't tell me that mavra, brzoja, bundovic and others are that bad they couldn't close +15 2 min. before end. it's just they didn't know how to behive without saric.

very quick way to create underachivers, chokers and losers:(

Joško Poljak Fan
09-17-2011, 06:47 PM
Marko Vranjkovic (born in 1990, from Maribor, now playing for Helios Domzale) is prototype of next modern forward in Slovenia. Much more than Muric brothers because of his versatility (also his former club Primorac Branik was junior champion in Slovenia against Muric's Parklji Ljubljana) . He has been on injury list almost complete last year, hidden from the eyes of public and his health will be main factor in future.
In youth categories played under the rim until his 15 year, then famous Mario Primorac started to transform him into forward. Some see him as a legitimate next Nachbar, not Smodis:rolleyes:;)
The only huge problem is that his next coach is Zmago Sagadin, who is not optimal coach for developing such a players at all. Remember, Bostjan Nachbar in 1998 left Olimpija Ljubljana (coached by Sagadin) in the middle of season, then he returned to Maribor and later next year he ended on loan from Benneton in Pivovarna Lasko (coached by Ales Pipan:cool:)
He demands loads of work and reportedly he managed to "convience" majority Helios's youngsters to stay after 6 hours of practice and work on their own afterwards. At least from that perspective Sagadin isn't exactly the worse for youngsters.
...I am anxious to see how the season will go. Sagadin can be a nutcase... but compared to Rade Mijanović and U20, I believe these kids (including Vranjkovič) will be more than happy with Zmago :D

euskadi
09-18-2011, 11:00 AM
here is another part of my theory

as 2nd thing you can recognize croats is? choking and not playing to win


well maybe it's some part of mentality, but not 100% lot of it it's created. i'm sure because i see our kids lot of times performing when it matters.

most of it it's more created, then "born with"

for sample ukic, tomas and tomic had same treatment in zagreb and split in senior basketball, or bogdanovic this year. they were marked as projects to sell. it wasn't matter do they win, lose, playe bad. only it was important to pump their stats. whille also getting some help from refs. so not that you get only uderdeveloped players who can't fit in normal system for 3-4 years, you also created double loosers. they get used to loosing. nobady can tell me it's their mentality because they had no problems winnig gold when were kids. it's their teached mentality. as for double loosers, other group of players, "helpers", are teached just to step beside when it mathers. if you watched how 94. u-16 almost collapsed in semis when saric fouled out. nobady can't tell me that mavra, brzoja, bundovic and others are that bad they couldn't close +15 2 min. before end. it's just they didn't know how to behive without saric.

very quick way to create underachivers, chokers and losers:(

partially i agree with you. croatian "system" develops one dimenzional players with bad habits. developing players with defect.

but I do not agree that our players do not care about winning. they want to win. tomics problem is not that but 12 yo old girls body. ukic problem is that he never develops playmaking skills

and I will never agree that ukic and tomas are losers and underachivers. actually croatia never had team that had imperativ to win medal. so 6. place is not underachiving. and if you think that 6. place is underachiving then i recommend you to watch this tournament again :D ukic is only player that has will to play game vs russia for world championship in 2009. from this point ukic results are overachiving.

cratia do not have medal team, or we do not have team with imperativ of win medal. but with great coach and full roster ( ukic, tomas, planinic, rozic, radosevic, loncar, maybe banic ) croatia could fight for medal. but we need to have big coach. coach who wants to winn and knows how to do that. i think napoleon once said: "better to have army of mouses with lion general, then army of lions with mouse general". so even if u are right, with good general ( coach ) we can change players mentality

Federoy
09-19-2011, 12:44 AM
The World Championship is a better tournament because it has more teams and muccchhh more cumulative quality, but the Olympics are the most prestigious one, because the Americans say so

That's absurd. There are plenty of people worldwide who recognize the Olympic tournament as the more prestigious of the two, primarily because it's the older, more established tournament, gets more participation from "A-list" players, and most importantly, it condenses the best national teams from every region into a solid 12 team field. (Unlike the WC, where you get a hugh drop-off in talent from the middle-bottom tier teams which waters down competitiveness.)

SunOverHStreet
09-19-2011, 03:08 AM
Great article in NIN magazine about Danilović (http://www.nin.co.rs/arhiva/2379/2379d.html) and a personal overview on his career. He said one very interesting thing, a great example why we had such great players and why ex-Yu will struggle to make such a great player again.

"Cak i moji roditelji su osetili da je taj covek pravi i da se na njega mogu osloniti kad sam ja, tada sedamnaestogodisnjak, u pitanju. Duletov, skoro slucajan, dolazak u moju kucu u Sarajevu bio je prekretnica u karijeri i prelasku u 'Partizan'. Pre toga upozorio me je da postoje teskoce sto se tog transfera tice, jer bez ispisnice kluba iz kojeg dolazim ne mogu zvanicno igrati u novom klubu godinu dana. To nije promenilo moju odluku. Presao sam u 'Partizan' za par patika, smestaj i hranu ne postavljajuci nikakve uslove. Moji nisu bili za to. Mama se bunila, a caleta sam brzo pridobio."

Tada je naucio da trenira po sedam-osam sati, da ustaje rano, da prihvata savete samo od onih koji su se kao dobronamerni vec dokazali. "Dule je u tom trenutku za mene bio i otac i trener, covek koji me je formirao u igrackom i ljudskom smislu. Od njega sam naucio da posvecujem puno paznje individualnom radu. Shvatio sam da u sportu, kao i u bilo kojoj profesiji, talenat nije nista bez rada. Ponekad cak ni to nije dovoljno jer, jednostavno, mozete da nemate srece."

"Even my parents felt that this man is genuine and that I, as seventeen-year-old, can rely on him. Dule's almost accidental arrival to my home in Sarajevo was a turning-point for my career and for my move to Partizan. Before it happened, he warned me that there are difficulties with the transfer, because without the release papers from my old club I could miss next season without playing officially for the new club. It didn't affect my decision. I moved to Partizan for a pair of sneakers, accommodation and food, without asking any question. My parents opposed the idea. Mom protested, but I convinced my father quickly."

Then he learned to train for seven or eight hours, to get up early, to accept advice from those who have already proven as bona fide. "Dule was both father and coach for me at that time, the man who helped me form as a person and as a player. I learned from him to devote myself to individual practice. I realized that in sports, as in any other profession, talent means nothing without practice. Sometimes even that is not enough, simply because you can run out of luck."
Dule is Duško Vujošević, of course.:)

souly
12-27-2011, 08:17 AM
yes Cibosu, that's true... basketball now is so poor that I watch only old Yugoslav games. in my opinion, only Teodosic could play old league.
as I'm also from Croatia, I can say that 1995 episode of leaving the podium put curse in our basketball and basketball gods remember it, not allowing us to win anymore...

souly
12-29-2011, 08:30 AM
perhaps true for euskadi. but...
only serbian coaches from ex-yugoslavia are lions...

souly
01-07-2012, 06:48 AM
i think that basketball and all cheap talks about it is complete nonsense after fall of Yugoslavia. during the Yugoslav period, everyone (except USA and USSR) was miles beyond. today we have situation that Spain is powerhouse.
Navarro??? - he is fine player, but could play in Rabotnički or Borac Čačak in ex-Yu league. he would be nice as floor cleaner for Kićanović or Delibašić...
to Pimpekaustas - yes, many Croatian players played for an ex-Yu team, but Serbia produced more stars over the years...

pohani komarac
01-08-2012, 04:24 PM
i think that basketball and all cheap talks about it is complete nonsense after fall of Yugoslavia. during the Yugoslav period, everyone (except USA and USSR) was miles beyond. today we have situation that Spain is powerhouse.
Navarro??? - he is fine player, but could play in Rabotnički or Borac Čačak in ex-Yu league. he would be nice as floor cleaner for Kićanović or Delibašić...
to Pimpekaustas - yes, many Croatian players played for an ex-Yu team, but Serbia produced more stars over the years...

you lost your mind