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View Full Version : Which is the 2nd strongest league in Europe?



Wu-Tang
10-24-2009, 11:57 AM
Majority of commenators would reach consensus that the Spanish ACB is the most competitive National/Regional league in Europe.

This is the possibility for IBN users to discuss and vote with regard to the contemporary runner-up league in Europe.

The decision is on you.


EDIT: A request has been sent to the moderators to add a poll as I was unable to complete it within a time-frame of five minutes. [Poll added. rikhardur]

Pistol Pete
10-24-2009, 06:38 PM
Must be Italy or Greece.. Turkey has some good clubs but lots of weak ones as well. Russia would be a contender but the level has dropped there due to the economic recession.

penzias
10-24-2009, 09:20 PM
Italy is not what it used to be but still away from the rest in terms of competivity, quality and depth.

Manosss
10-25-2009, 12:23 AM
Italy is not what it used to be but still away from the rest in terms of competivity, quality and depth.

Competitivity? What competitivity are u talking about my friend?
Every year we know who is gonna be the champion... Siena..

And about quality and depth.
So Siena-Virtus-Armani are better than Pao-Oly-Marousi..
Or the rest of the teams e.g Napoli are better than Aris , Panionios etc..
No my friend..
Ok i may be greek but seeing it objectively i believe you can't say Italian League is better..

If you had to choose to see the finals of one league what would u choose?
Siena-Virtus or Panathinaikos-Olympiakos???

Real-Barca and Pao-Oly are the classicos that all europe waits to watch every year..

FIBA Europe Basket
10-25-2009, 01:15 AM
The Spanish League is the 2nd best in Europe. The Greek League is better than the Spanish League.

alexacker
10-25-2009, 08:06 AM
The Spanish League is the 2nd best in Europe. The Greek League is better than the Spanish League.

even with all the empty stadiums, the unpaid players, and the shitty facilities?
the top two teams are not enough to judge a league

CG
10-25-2009, 10:58 AM
In my opinion Greece is the second.NOT cause of its organization cause it is laughable but from the talent of the teams.
Ok PAO and OLY are giants in front of the rest of the teams but Marousi,Aris (these days with Katsikaris),Panellinios.Panionios are good teams and the rest can provide strange results almost every week.
I think Italy and Russia follow
ofcourse if we refer to the pachage (salaries,arenas etc) Greece is not even in the first 3 places...but if talent and competiveness speaks Greece is second

P.J.
10-25-2009, 12:27 PM
Definitely Italy.
Greece has two big teams, Italy just one, but still I think the other Italian teams are better then Greek ones.

Mindozas
10-25-2009, 03:10 PM
Greece

P.J.
10-25-2009, 04:18 PM
So good that one of them lost to Cypriot club last week
Well, I guess you perfectly know that three players were out (Amoroso, Young, Stanescu), two starters weren't even supposed to play (Poeta, Thomas) due to injuries, while one (Jurak) just arrived and had only one practice with the team.

Victorious
10-26-2009, 11:19 AM
I also think it's Greece. The two Greek giants make it look as if the rest of the teams are bad, but the truth is that there are at least four other teams in the Greek A1 that could make it to the top-16 of the Euroleague. As recent history shows, Aris, Panionios, and now Maroussi are very competitive in the Euroleague and are teams which are hard to beat. Panellinios is also on the same level.

On the other hand, Italian teams other than Lottomatica and Montepaschi, struggle and usually fail to make it in the top-16 of the Euroleague. And even th level of these two Italian giants (especially Lotomatica) is definaltely lower of the two big Greek giants.

This year, again, Benetton Treviso failed to beat a very average French team in order to get a ticket to the Euroleague. So I don't really see the strength of the Italian league.

I think that it's 2. Greece and 3. Italy, Russia, Turkey...

But considering the population of Italy, the arena's, the basketball history and the tradition, the Italian League has the ability to become the strongest League in Europe in a matter of just a couple of years.

P.J.
10-26-2009, 01:01 PM
I agree when you say that Greek league has two giants (PAO, Olympiakos), while Italy has a single team dominating the league (Siena), and this certainly makes Greek league better from this point of view.

But...I really don't think that 2 big teams are enough to consider Esake as the 2nd best league. Mostly because I don't think the other teams are that better than the Italians as you claim. What makes you think that?
Besides PAO and Olympiakos' stars, who are the biggest names and players you have in Greece?

Comparing the other teams' rosters I still see foreign players in Italy are better: in small teams there are players with significant NBA experience (Jumaine Jones, Fred Jones, Damon Jones, Luke Jackson), with some of them earning a lot (for instance: Damon Jones signed for around 400k dollars with the worst team in the league) and according to the rumors some others may arrive soon. Italian small teams also have a lot more players (than Greek small clubs) who were in Euroleague teams last season. No rookies like in Greece, where I see several teams signed players just out off the NCAA. They may be good but...still they have to prove it since they are at their 1st professional experience.

NO AEK cases: there's no teams here playing with no foreigners.
Teams don't release players for financial issues midway through the season, last year Rieti lost Pasco but still kept the other players and managed to avoid the relegation. Udine released some of its foreigners last season, but just after getting relegated. If I remember correctly, in the last few years PAOK and other teams had to release most of the unpaid players during the season, right? Are you sure this will not happen again?

Some Greek teams have players who had previous experiences in Italy and were released for poor performances (Jamar Butler, Chris Massie, Billy Keys, Vonteego Cummings), actually in Italy I don't see players who were cut in Greece before. Some other foreigners in Greek A1 played in Italian 2nd league: Kenny Gregory, Josh Davis, Chris Massie, Rudy Mbemba, Chris Monroe, Vonteego Cummings, just to let you know that several players actually in Greek A1 are well-known in Italy because either they played bad here, or just because they used to play in the 2nd division.

The only players actually in Greece who previously had a positive experience in Italy are Devin Smith and Chris Monroe, the others disappointed (a couple of examples: BJ Elder talented but totally unprofessional and always pathetic in the 2nd part of the season, Keydren Clark released by Pesaro - that had an option to extend his contract but did not used it - because he's a one-dimensional player, a scorer not able to involve his teammates).

Considering that 90% of the NT players belong to Panathinaikos and Olympiakos, can you please tell me what makes other Greek teams so special?

pohani komarac
10-26-2009, 01:44 PM
I see people underestimate Adriatic league and not even mentionig at 3,4 or 5 place. Probably because people don't know players that plays but forgoting fact that ex-Yugoslavian countries combined still is 2nd bigest producer of players of world after US. I'm not sure that this year is stronger than Greece but I'm sure that overall is stronger than Italy, Turkey and Russia and much stronger than French and Germany even tough there are no rich teams like CSK, Khimki, Efes, Fener or Siena:D

last year by combine overall results of clubs NLB was 2nd (far behind ACB) in europ. This year that won't happend because of finacial issues and lot of players left to rich clubs, but this year competition might be most interesting in Europ. Partizan, Cibona, Buducnost and Zadar got bit weaker, whille Olimpija and Zagreb are much stronger than last year. Hemofarm and Zvezda are always fighting for top spots whill FMP is dagerus as always. Two new comers Cedevita (with lot of money for our standards) and Radnicki with solid team and full arena are stronger than Split and Vojvodina. Only outsiders should be Siroki, Bosna and Helios but ther are stronger teams than French, Russia or Turkey low level clubs.

pohani komarac
10-26-2009, 01:48 PM
I agree when you say that Greek league has two giants (PAO, Olympiakos), while Italy has a single team dominating the league (Siena), and this certainly makes Greek league better from this point of view.

But...I really don't think that 2 big teams are enough to consider Esake as the 2nd best league. Mostly because I don't think the other teams are that better than the Italians as you claim. What makes you think that?
Besides PAO and Olympiakos' stars, who are the biggest names and players you have in Greece?

Comparing the other teams' rosters I still see foreign players in Italy are better: in small teams there are players with significant NBA experience (Jumaine Jones, Fred Jones, Damon Jones, Luke Jackson), with some of them earning a lot (for instance: Damon Jones signed for around 400k dollars with the worst team in the league) and according to the rumors some others may arrive soon. Italian small teams also have a lot more players (than Greek small clubs) who were in Euroleague teams last season. No rookies like in Greece, where I see several teams signed players just out off the NCAA. They may be good but...still they have to prove it since they are at their 1st professional experience.

NO AEK cases: there's no teams here playing with no foreigners.
Teams don't release players for financial issues midway through the season, last year Rieti lost Pasco but still kept the other players and managed to avoid the relegation. Udine released some of its foreigners last season, but just after getting relegated. If I remember correctly, in the last few years PAOK and other teams had to release most of the unpaid players during the season, right? Are you sure this will not happen again?

Some Greek teams have players who had previous experiences in Italy and were released for poor performances (Jamar Butler, Chris Massie, Billy Keys, Vonteego Cummings), actually in Italy I don't see players who were cut in Greece before. Some other foreigners in Greek A1 played in Italian 2nd league: Kenny Gregory, Josh Davis, Chris Massie, Rudy Mbemba, Chris Monroe, Vonteego Cummings, just to let you know that several players actually in Greek A1 are well-known in Italy because either they played bad here, or just because they used to play in the 2nd division.

The only players actually in Greece who previously had a positive experience in Italy are Devin Smith and Chris Monroe, the others disappointed (a couple of examples: BJ Elder talented but totally unprofessional and always pathetic in the 2nd part of the season, Keydren Clark released by Pesaro - that had an option to extend his contract but did not used it - because he's a one-dimensional player, a scorer not able to involve his teammates).

Considering that 90% of the NT players belong to Panathinaikos and Olympiakos, can you please tell me what makes other Greek teams so special?

Vontego couldnt play last year in Croatian league and be a factor against anbody not named Toni Prostran

MaccabiTA
10-26-2009, 02:20 PM
The Israeli league, ofcourse :D
umm seriously now, the greek league is the 2nd best league by far.. Italy is not even close to be what it used to be..

Useless
10-26-2009, 03:58 PM
LEB ORO, the second spanish division :D

rikhardur
10-26-2009, 05:35 PM
LEB ORO, the second spanish division :D
Hey it's certainly stronger than some premier European leagues, I have no doubts about that.

Khalid80
10-26-2009, 07:15 PM
If we are talking about the last couple of years then the Greek A1 League for sure (especially considering how both Pao and Oly made the final 4 last season)

FIBA Europe Basket
10-26-2009, 11:14 PM
I agree when you say that Greek league has two giants (PAO, Olympiakos), while Italy has a single team dominating the league (Siena), and this certainly makes Greek league better from this point of view.

But...I really don't think that 2 big teams are enough to consider Esake as the 2nd best league. Mostly because I don't think the other teams are that better than the Italians as you claim. What makes you think that?
Besides PAO and Olympiakos' stars, who are the biggest names and players you have in Greece?

Comparing the other teams' rosters I still see foreign players in Italy are better: in small teams there are players with significant NBA experience (Jumaine Jones, Fred Jones, Damon Jones, Luke Jackson), with some of them earning a lot (for instance: Damon Jones signed for around 400k dollars with the worst team in the league) and according to the rumors some others may arrive soon. Italian small teams also have a lot more players (than Greek small clubs) who were in Euroleague teams last season. No rookies like in Greece, where I see several teams signed players just out off the NCAA. They may be good but...still they have to prove it since they are at their 1st professional experience.

NO AEK cases: there's no teams here playing with no foreigners.
Teams don't release players for financial issues midway through the season, last year Rieti lost Pasco but still kept the other players and managed to avoid the relegation. Udine released some of its foreigners last season, but just after getting relegated. If I remember correctly, in the last few years PAOK and other teams had to release most of the unpaid players during the season, right? Are you sure this will not happen again?

Some Greek teams have players who had previous experiences in Italy and were released for poor performances (Jamar Butler, Chris Massie, Billy Keys, Vonteego Cummings), actually in Italy I don't see players who were cut in Greece before. Some other foreigners in Greek A1 played in Italian 2nd league: Kenny Gregory, Josh Davis, Chris Massie, Rudy Mbemba, Chris Monroe, Vonteego Cummings, just to let you know that several players actually in Greek A1 are well-known in Italy because either they played bad here, or just because they used to play in the 2nd division.

The only players actually in Greece who previously had a positive experience in Italy are Devin Smith and Chris Monroe, the others disappointed (a couple of examples: BJ Elder talented but totally unprofessional and always pathetic in the 2nd part of the season, Keydren Clark released by Pesaro - that had an option to extend his contract but did not used it - because he's a one-dimensional player, a scorer not able to involve his teammates).

Considering that 90% of the NT players belong to Panathinaikos and Olympiakos, can you please tell me what makes other Greek teams so special?

It's actually very debatable if Italian League is even better than the Russian League. The Greek League is far better than the Italian League.

FIBA Europe Basket
10-26-2009, 11:20 PM
I see people underestimate Adriatic league and not even mentionig at 3,4 or 5 place. Probably because people don't know players that plays but forgoting fact that ex-Yugoslavian countries combined still is 2nd bigest producer of players of world after US. I'm not sure that this year is stronger than Greece but I'm sure that overall is stronger than Italy, Turkey and Russia and much stronger than French and Germany even tough there are no rich teams like CSK, Khimki, Efes, Fener or Siena:D

last year by combine overall results of clubs NLB was 2nd (far behind ACB) in europ. This year that won't happend because of finacial issues and lot of players left to rich clubs, but this year competition might be most interesting in Europ. Partizan, Cibona, Buducnost and Zadar got bit weaker, whille Olimpija and Zagreb are much stronger than last year. Hemofarm and Zvezda are always fighting for top spots whill FMP is dagerus as always. Two new comers Cedevita (with lot of money for our standards) and Radnicki with solid team and full arena are stronger than Split and Vojvodina. Only outsiders should be Siroki, Bosna and Helios but ther are stronger teams than French, Russia or Turkey low level clubs.

Adriatic League is certainly one of the best leagues but the thing it really lacks is a top club. The cream of the crop is Partizan. If Adriatic League had some big clubs then it would be comparable to leagues like Spain and Greece. But without such big clubs it's probably always going to be in the level it is now. It's unfortunate because it probably has the biggest potential of all the regional leagues.

P.J.
10-27-2009, 12:11 AM
It's actually very debatable if Italian League is even better than the Russian League. The Greek League is far better than the Italian League.
I'm just waiting for some buddies from Luxembourg to sign up here and write that Luxembourgish league is better than Italian.
Damn we desperately suck. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I wasted some of my time trying to explain why I don't see Greek league so special as most of people here claim. Can anybody please do the same and write down the reasons why Greek league is so good (please, don't answer: "because of Panathinaikos and Olympiakos", since it's not a 2-teams league)?

damelo
10-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Greece has at least 2 top Euro clubs, Italy one, and Russia one. Now, maybe the second league is Adriatic or Baltic.

I checked ESAKE's boxscores yesterday, they have at least 5 clubs with good European players.
France is good, because it's a very competitive championship. The weak teams are not so far from the top ones. But since we have different style of play and tall centers have difficulties in our championship, our clubs are not very competitive in EL or ULEB.
Russia has 4-5 teams too.
Italy has good teams, but seeing how Siena dominates... They look better on paper than they really are.
So, I cant' tell which one is better. Most probably Greece since it seems a little closer than other leagues.

ps: Here, we use to say LEB Oro is more or less the same level as middle Pro A teams.