The problem with calling all the Israelis as Jew.

[Kasmer2]

The problem with calling all the Israelis as Jew?

we have a country which called israel therefore you need to say israelis. its like i would say: oly brought some christian....

 

[Billy2]

we have a country which called israel therefore you need to say israelis. its like i would say: oly brought some christian....

Uh, is that not the same (reg: Israeli and Jew)?

Dont you need to be a Jew to be a citizen of Israel?

Perhaps he knew the guy was jewish since he wore a yarmulke but was uncertain if the guy was a citizen of Israel?

 

[Dookie2]

Uh, is that not the same (reg: Israeli and Jew)?

Dont you need to be a Jew to be a citizen of Israel?

Perhaps he knew the guy was jewish since he wore a yarmulke but was uncertain if the guy was a citizen of Israel?

1. No
2. No

In Israel there are lots of Muslims and Christians who are also have Israeli Citizenship.
For example - 24% of Israel's population are not jewish.
It's true that any Jewish person from around the world can have an Israeli Citizenship, but being Israeli is not only restricted for Jewish people.

 

[MikeMaccabiFan2]

Uh, is that not the same (reg: Israeli and Jew)?

Dont you need to be a Jew to be a citizen of Israel?

Perhaps he knew the guy was jewish since he wore a yarmulke but was uncertain if the guy was a citizen of Israel?

No it's not the same - there are Israeli druzes and Arabs and Shomronites and Cherkesses and Russians etc.
And come on, not Edelshtein or Elad Hasin (or Pini for that matter) wear yarmulkes...
It was usual casual European antisemitism....

 

[LuDux2]

ArkadiosV2 and rchos7 why you writing jews? we have a country which called israel therefore you need to say israelis. its like i would say: oly brought some christian....

Israeli - 7 letters
Jew - 3 letters

 

[elaj2]

It was usual casual European antisemitism....

And this is just casual Israeli/Jew whining.

 

[fasoulaki2]

It was usual casual European antisemitism....

Maybe you are right! But it could also be just a cultural misunderstanding. In Greece people often refer to Israelis as Hebrews or Jews without having any antisemitism in mind just as a synonym.

It has a long tradition to do that. In the writings of apostle Paul to the Galatians, who actually was from judaic origin, you can find sentences like "There is neither Jew nor Greek ..."

http://bible.cc/galatians/3-28.htm

Allthough I have to admit that nowadays I as a greek would not use the word jew in this way because I have been raised in Germany with more sensitivity to this kind of issues.

 

[ArkadiosV22]

we have a country which called israel therefore you need to say israelis. its like i would say: oly brought some christian....

Because as said before its shorter, therefore easier and faster to type. I'm not Hitler trying to vanish you from the foroums, don't worry.

By the way, according to 'Fanatic' Kutluay might return to AEK.

 

[Billy2]

It was usual casual European antisemitism....

How dare he use the word Jew?!?

 

[Juan Carlos Nadal2]

Easy guys.

I recommend that when one wants to refer to Israelis that he/she uses the term Israeli (it's not that much longer to write and it is much more accurate and politically correct).

I would appreciate if you did not continue that discussion here but you are welcome to discuss it elsewhere (new topic) if you wish to.

 

[goga782]

Maybe you are right! But it could also be just a cultural misunderstanding. In Greece people often refer to Israelis as Hebrews or Jews without having any antisemitism in mind just as a synonym.

It has a long tradition to do that. In the writings of apostle Paul to the Galatians, who actually was from judaic origin, you can find sentences like "There is neither Jew nor Greek ..."

http://bible.cc/galatians/3-28.htm

Allthough I have to admit that nowadays I as a greek would not use the word jew in this way because I have been raised in Germany with more sensitivity to this kind of issues.

You are right. It's not like both dudes above had sth. bad in mind. It is simply sth. they were raised up with. and now Mike comes into the game and calls it "casual antisemitism". He is also completely right. First of all, if sth. has a tradition, it doesn't mean it is the correct way to see thing. It was usual to burn witches for lots of centuries. So what? This could be seen in a relative way due to cultural distinctiveness? No! We live in the 21st century and enlightened European people (at least them) should be able to differentiate between Jews and Israelis, just like they do differentiate between Catholics and Spaniards or Orthodox Christians and Greeks.
As to your example of Apostle Paul, these were biblical times when no state of Israel existed. The Jewish kingdom was called Judea and the word Jew didn't have the same connotation in minds human kind due to lack of Christian clerical antisemitism.
Mike didn't explain it at all, but come on, this board does exist for several years now and Greek people are dealing with Israeli people and still refer to them as Jews whereas everybody else calles them Israelis?! Is Maccabi Tel-Aviv a Jewish team or an Israeli team? I think, the answer is obvious.

 

[goga782]

Because as said before its shorter, therefore easier and faster to type. I'm not Hitler trying to vanish you from the foroums, don't worry.

By the way, according to 'Fanatic' Kutluay might return to AEK.

Hey, what a nice explanation! Let's find some interesting short word for Greeks in this forum! We are typing here so much that we can bear to call other people how they should be called like and not how we'd like to call them.

Easy guys.

I recommend that when one wants to refer to Israelis that he/she uses the term Israeli (it's not that much longer to write and it is much more accurate and politically correct).

I would appreciate if you did not continue that discussion here but you are welcome to discuss it elsewhere (new topic) if you wish to.

I'm very sorry. Have read your recommendation too late I just gave the matter a short explanation. I hope, the case is closed forever here

 

[Levenspiel2]

I've felt it'd be better to move the relevant posts here. Please PM me (or other mods) if you didn't like the thread title - I had to write something.

 

[c_fish2]

I guess it would be easier to understand why Arkadios referred to that person as a jew instead of an israelli if u guys knew that this word is used much more often in every day conversations than the israelli one,even if as a term,is wrong.

Also I find it a bit annoying raising antisemitism (or not) conversations every time something negative is mentioned about israellis.Some people even objected for using the "uber alles" expression while referring to Gershon in the greek bball threads.Should we make a flame if Pini drove (or had been ran over ) by a Mercedes or a BMW?Relax

 

[Billy2]

Also I find it a bit annoying raising antisemitism (or not) conversations every time something negative is mentioned about israellis.Some people even objected for using the "uber alles" expression while referring to Gershon in the greek bball threads.Should we make a flame if Pini drove (or had been ran over ) by a Mercedes or a BMW?Relax

Hear, hear.

Hey, what a nice explanation! Let's find some interesting short word for Greeks in this forum! We are typing here so much that we can bear to call other people how they should be called like and not how we'd like to call them.

Was the guy Jewish or not?

It is simply sth. they were raised up with. and now Mike comes into the game and calls it "casual antisemitism".

How could it be "casual antisematism" when he refers to someones religion?

Lets try it with a few different religions shall we:

"Christian dude from last year", "Hindu dude from last year", "Muslim dude from last year", "Konfucian dude from last year", "Buddhist dude from last year", "Wicka dude from last year" and so on and so forth.

I fail to see that it even carries a negative slant. Its a very broad statement but it does not make it wrong/racist or whatever.

1. No
2. No

Thanks for the clarification.

Is there any other country in the world that grants citizenship based on religion?

reason for editing: changed "stament" to "statement"

 

[qiangdade2]

Couple of months ago i asked an israeli friend of mine in berlin about the difference between Israeli/Jew/Hebrew( in greek Jews are reffered to as Hebrews, and the old Hebrews as Judeans). He explained to me the difference between Israeli and Jew and he told me that Hebrews are the ancient jews and the name is also used to refer to the language. He told me that he had no problem at all being called a Jew, he called himself that all the time. Now I don't see any antisemitism at all in casually calling some israeli member a Jew. It may be wrong, but not necesserily antisemetic. Yet since i have always used the term "israeli" if israeli members want to be called that. then everyone should respect their wish i guess. I still believe though that it shows a great deal of self confliction when every little thing like that is considered antisemetic. Imagine all greeks being insulted if not called Hellenes, Germans if not called Deutsch, Finnish if not called Suomi etc. My point is that it is ok to clarify that Israelis want to be called israelis and not Jews, but it is not ok viewing the matter immediatelly as antisemitism.. IMO...

Ps: The matter about "uber alles" was clarified in the greek forum i think. There was a wikipedia link explaining everything

 

[Digdis2]

Being both an Israeli and a Jew, I don't see any problem if people occasionally mix between the two. Judaism is unique in the sense it defines both a religion and a nation. Having Jews who are not Israeli citizens (like Ezra Williams who was also discussed in the EL rumors thread) but are entitled to citizenship on the one hand, and Israeli citizens who are not Jews (like the Israeli Arabs), surely contributes to this confusion. As I guess no one is expected to be familliar with all the racial differences in other nations, I don't have a problem with people not being familliar with mine.
What I really don't like is mixing this confusion with Anti-Semitism. No need to be so defensive. It also degrades the struggle against true Anti-Semitism (which exists big time).

 

[Czarkazem132]

I guess it would be easier to understand why Arkadios referred to that person as a jew instead of an israelli if u guys knew that this word is used much more often in every day conversations than the israelli one,even if as a term,is wrong.

Very true, but like Goga stated just because it is a tradition doesn't mean it's correct. Negro (and Negress like Jewess) was used a long time to describe blacks (not too mention other words here in the U.S. - and other places), but it is no longer used because it is considered to be pejorative by man blacks.

Also I find it a bit annoying raising antisemitism (or not) conversations every time something negative is mentioned about israellis.Some people even objected for using the "uber alles" expression while referring to Gershon in the greek bball threads.Should we make a flame if Pini drove (or had been ran over ) by a Mercedes or a BMW?Relax

I do also find it annoying when people (not just Jews) claim bigotry, but let's be honest, there is a reason why Jews are paranoid with Europeans.

Also, terms like "uber alles" may have not derogatory meaning intended, but do to the history of European Jews, it is definitely in bad taste. For instance - once again in the U.S. - people would call someone acting retarded a monkey. However, this would be in bad taste to call a black person this due to the history of white racism in equating blacks with monkeys.

Take Don Imus, many people couldn't see the racial implications of the phrase "nappy headed hos." Comedian Carlos Mencia did a bit on how it's stupid to claim this racist, One doesn't have to be black to have nappy hair (Jews being one of them - ok, me); Ho has nothing to do with black either. And he would have a point, if he were to ignore HISTORY. Nappye headed ho derived from "wooley headed wenches" - what white men called black women. Therefore the term "nappy headed ho" can be considered perjorative towards black women.

Was the guy Jewish or not?

Lol.

How could it be "casual antisematism" when he refers to someones religion?

Lets try it with a few different religions shall we:

"Christian dude from last year", "Hindu dude from last year", "Muslim dude from last year", "Konfucian dude from last year", "Buddhist dude from last year", "Wicka dude from last year" and so on and so forth.

I fail to see that it even carries a negative slant. Its a very broad statement but it does not make it wrong/racist or whatever.

Completely different. Judaism is a national religion like Hinduism, compared to say Christianity and Islam, which are international religions. A national religion is based on mostly one ethnicity, while international religions cross over many different ethnicities. While there are Jews of different nationalities and colors, it is from migration and mixing, not converting (or forced) like Christianity.

Also one doesn't have to follow the Jewish "faith" (some have argued that Judaism is like Buddhism isn't a true religion in the sense of the word) to be a Jew. Plenty of Israelis are secular, but still considered Jews (though not by the Orthadox).

Also - atleast in the U.S. - many Jewish people don't like the term 'Jew.' They consider it outdated and even groups that practice antisemitism (NOI, KKK, NAZIs, etc...) usually use the term 'Jew' as a derogatory.

If you can't see how Jews would be sensitive to this and not see it as just calling a guy by his religion, then I don't know what to tell you but that you need to read history and see why some ethnicities are sensitive to certain things.

BTW, many followers of K'ung-fu-tzu are not that big on the word 'Confucius.'

Is there any other country in the world that grants citizenship based on religion?

reason for editing: changed "stament" to "statement"

More based on ethnicity. There are plenty of Jewish ethnics, but not religious, that are granted citizenship. BTW, this is no different from say Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Latinos (with Spanish/Portugese origin), getting granted citizenship because of their ancestors.

Being both an Israeli and a Jew, I don't see any problem if people occasionally mix between the two. Judaism is unique in the sense it defines both a religion and a nation. Having Jews who are not Israeli citizens (like Ezra Williams who was also discussed in the EL rumors thread) but are entitled to citizenship on the one hand, and Israeli citizens who are not Jews (like the Israeli Arabs), surely contributes to this confusion. As I guess no one is expected to be familliar with all the racial differences in other nations, I don't have a problem with people not being familliar with mine.
What I really don't like is mixing this confusion with Anti-Semitism. No need to be so defensive. It also degrades the struggle against true Anti-Semitism (which exists big time).

See being a Jew and not Israeli, I feel they should be labeled differently. Plus like you stated, even more so many nonJewish Israelis would wouldn't lke to be called Jews when they are not.

Also, do you have a link to Ezra Williams being Jewish? I've never heard this and can't find where it states he's Jewish.






In the end I don't think it is "casual antisemitism" just cultural differences. However, that doesn't negate if a Jewish person is - let's say - sensitive to this subject. Either way it's simple, not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews.

Shalom.

 

[fasoulaki2]

I would just like to add the comment that the Israelian states exist for only 50 years whereas Greeks & "Jews" live together for more than 2000 years and they were referring to each other as greeks & jews for mor than 2000 years.

It is not that easy to change traditions & customs which have been around for that long time.

 

[Czarkazem132]

I would just like to add the comment that the Israelian states exist for only 50 years whereas Greeks & "Jews" live together for more than 2000 years and they were referring to each other as greeks & jews for mor than 2000 years.

It is not that easy to change traditions & customs which have been around for that long time.

But isn't that what Greeks called Jews from Greece...Jews? If a Jew as from say Turkey and therefore his/her nationality is Turkish, would they not be Turkish if describing their nationality? Jewish, being religion or ethnicity. If the assistant coach was from Italy and a Jew, would you still call him a Jew or would he be Italian?

Greeks have had 50 years to get used to calling Israelis, Israelis.