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Toruko2
Guest
I thought after the harsh end of the Eurobasket 22 we can here about the future developments of the Turkish NT. What is needed? What are the weaknesses and what can we count on in the future.
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Toruko2
Guest
OK I am gonna start...
We started very weak on this Eurobasket and it was very worrisome especially on the defensive end. Ataman made some adjustments and our game looked better. What were the problems?
- Inability to defend high pick and roll action
- Inability to defend low post action
- No rim protection and weak perimeter defense
The main problem was the physical state of our bigs. Sengün but especially Sanli were not ready physically, far away from their 100%. We needed a more balanced team with at least better perimeter defenders, this was possible. We have the guys...
I am insisting on Kenan Sipahi. He is a Euroleague defender and has the size to defend multiple positions and he is an underrated play maker. He would have changed many things.
So what do we have on the backcourt? I think we can count on Larkin at least in the following two years but we shouldnt be that dependable on him. He hasnt played a role in this tournament but Bitim is a solid two way scorer and we can count on him making the next steps. I have been following Hazer from his youth days and he overachieved my highest expectations. I mean he showed some glimpses of shot creation in his last Bandirma year but I never expected him to be that consistent. I expect him to be a great Euroleague starter in the next NT tournament. We should also be able to count on Osman but shrink his offensive role a bit. He showed that he is ready to step down so I dont see big problems here.
Furkan Korkmaz showed a surprising change in his attitude in this tournament compared to the previous ones. He didnt disappear. I still doubt that the Philly is the right spot for him but I see still some potential to be a better player. Tbh I would rather see him in Europe playing for Efes than have a mediocre career in the NBA.
We should say goodbye to the idea of using Mahmutoglu from now on. Such one speciality guys with those weaknesses dont help winning something but I am ok with Tuncer as the 12th man on the roster.
The team should be built around Sengün. Due to his size and slow legs he needs someone who can cover these weaknesses and considering him creating shots from the mid range he should be able to play with Adem Bona. If both turn out to be what we expect it will be the most exciting big rotation in whole Europe.
We have more than enough quality in the 2-3 positions which is good. Adding Bona, Sanli, Yurtseven, Sengün and Osmani and considering their age I dont see many problems in the 4-5 rotation as well.
Mert Akay is still the most crucial player of this team. I know he had two injuries and hasnt been playing for a long time. We dont know his level and how he comes back but I dont doubt a bit that hell come stronger back and even with one leg he would still be more useful than what we have right now.
The other guy I am expecting to be invited soon is David Mutaf. He has problems with lateral quickness and should work on his pick and roll initiation skills but the kid is a hard worker.
So Adem Bona, Mert Akay and David Mutaf should be the new additions to this team in two years.
We started very weak on this Eurobasket and it was very worrisome especially on the defensive end. Ataman made some adjustments and our game looked better. What were the problems?
- Inability to defend high pick and roll action
- Inability to defend low post action
- No rim protection and weak perimeter defense
The main problem was the physical state of our bigs. Sengün but especially Sanli were not ready physically, far away from their 100%. We needed a more balanced team with at least better perimeter defenders, this was possible. We have the guys...
I am insisting on Kenan Sipahi. He is a Euroleague defender and has the size to defend multiple positions and he is an underrated play maker. He would have changed many things.
So what do we have on the backcourt? I think we can count on Larkin at least in the following two years but we shouldnt be that dependable on him. He hasnt played a role in this tournament but Bitim is a solid two way scorer and we can count on him making the next steps. I have been following Hazer from his youth days and he overachieved my highest expectations. I mean he showed some glimpses of shot creation in his last Bandirma year but I never expected him to be that consistent. I expect him to be a great Euroleague starter in the next NT tournament. We should also be able to count on Osman but shrink his offensive role a bit. He showed that he is ready to step down so I dont see big problems here.
Furkan Korkmaz showed a surprising change in his attitude in this tournament compared to the previous ones. He didnt disappear. I still doubt that the Philly is the right spot for him but I see still some potential to be a better player. Tbh I would rather see him in Europe playing for Efes than have a mediocre career in the NBA.
We should say goodbye to the idea of using Mahmutoglu from now on. Such one speciality guys with those weaknesses dont help winning something but I am ok with Tuncer as the 12th man on the roster.
The team should be built around Sengün. Due to his size and slow legs he needs someone who can cover these weaknesses and considering him creating shots from the mid range he should be able to play with Adem Bona. If both turn out to be what we expect it will be the most exciting big rotation in whole Europe.
We have more than enough quality in the 2-3 positions which is good. Adding Bona, Sanli, Yurtseven, Sengün and Osmani and considering their age I dont see many problems in the 4-5 rotation as well.
Mert Akay is still the most crucial player of this team. I know he had two injuries and hasnt been playing for a long time. We dont know his level and how he comes back but I dont doubt a bit that hell come stronger back and even with one leg he would still be more useful than what we have right now.
The other guy I am expecting to be invited soon is David Mutaf. He has problems with lateral quickness and should work on his pick and roll initiation skills but the kid is a hard worker.
So Adem Bona, Mert Akay and David Mutaf should be the new additions to this team in two years.
J
janketa2
Guest
Larkin, Akay,xxx
Hazer, Korkmaz
Bitim, Cedi
Osmani, Kabaca
Sengun,Sanli, Bona
As I wrote previously, it's time for some players take episode roles that fit them better. Chokers like Cedi and Korkmaz, could be very good role players. Anyhow, they are used to that in their clubs and should play the same roles here(during those rare occasion when they appear in NT). After all they will not play for NT next 3-4 years anyway, cos we are probably out from WC and Olympics.
Core of this team should be Larkin, Hazer, Bitim, Osmani and Bona. Young players who will play on high level next 6-8 years. In the meantime we should find replacement for Larkin after he leaves Efes some day.
Elimination of Melih alone will increase power of this team for 10-15%, better roles distribution will add next 10-15, which makes us much more serious team and regular candidate for every competition.
Bigger part of defense problems will be solved without soft players in rotation, as well as number of turnovers. Korkmaz, Cedi, Melih and Tuncer 11 TOs yesterday, rest of the team 4.
Bitim and Osmani must play EL asap, and it's up to Efes and Fener to do something about that. without games on highest level improvement is much slower.
Hazer, Korkmaz
Bitim, Cedi
Osmani, Kabaca
Sengun,Sanli, Bona
As I wrote previously, it's time for some players take episode roles that fit them better. Chokers like Cedi and Korkmaz, could be very good role players. Anyhow, they are used to that in their clubs and should play the same roles here(during those rare occasion when they appear in NT). After all they will not play for NT next 3-4 years anyway, cos we are probably out from WC and Olympics.
Core of this team should be Larkin, Hazer, Bitim, Osmani and Bona. Young players who will play on high level next 6-8 years. In the meantime we should find replacement for Larkin after he leaves Efes some day.
Elimination of Melih alone will increase power of this team for 10-15%, better roles distribution will add next 10-15, which makes us much more serious team and regular candidate for every competition.
Bigger part of defense problems will be solved without soft players in rotation, as well as number of turnovers. Korkmaz, Cedi, Melih and Tuncer 11 TOs yesterday, rest of the team 4.
Bitim and Osmani must play EL asap, and it's up to Efes and Fener to do something about that. without games on highest level improvement is much slower.
C
c-myers2
Guest
We have to fullfil the pg position and Mert Akay is serious candidate to fill that gap. Mert also has very good work ethic and good character wise which is also very important to team spirit. I do not know his last situation as to injury hope he will be bounce back in better better shape. Also Ömercan İlyasoğlu is really good talent. I would prefer Efes on loan him this year to get more playing time. He might having a solid experience with Bursa and coach Alimpijevic. I really get Teodosic vibe but his body language is not that promising.
Also I would like to mention about Hazer. I do not know why but people underestimate this kid by describing him just role player. He is full package player and can do everything. Maybe he will never be super star but extremely solid player. He got blocked by Gobert in France game and after that hit the three without hesitate. Kid has balls and fearless. It very hard to find this sort of Turkish player.
I am pretty confident with PF position since Osmani, Kabaca and Saybir going to gain experience plus that we have Büyüktuncer and Kerem Konan as solid prospects. Besides that center position will be covered nicely from Bona and Furkan Haltali even if we do not count Yurtseven.
Also I would like to mention about Hazer. I do not know why but people underestimate this kid by describing him just role player. He is full package player and can do everything. Maybe he will never be super star but extremely solid player. He got blocked by Gobert in France game and after that hit the three without hesitate. Kid has balls and fearless. It very hard to find this sort of Turkish player.
I am pretty confident with PF position since Osmani, Kabaca and Saybir going to gain experience plus that we have Büyüktuncer and Kerem Konan as solid prospects. Besides that center position will be covered nicely from Bona and Furkan Haltali even if we do not count Yurtseven.
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Levenspiel2
Guest
What did you guys see in Mert Akay at the senior level to count on him so much?
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janketa2
Guest
Idea(as I understood) was about future so some predictions must be included, otherwise Melih would be in the roster
S
slice me nice2
Guest
Kenan Sipahi is definitely not a savior or sth, yet he is the best all-around Turkish PG right now. Projecting a future without him is lame. One day people will realize he is actually a very important player, but it will be too late. He is going to have his most fruitful times upcoming 5 years and we should seriously find ways to utilize him. He is not the guy of micro roles, giving enhanced role to him will surely make us a better team.
Akay had only one good season in average competition, he has a lot of rooms to prove something real, besides having back to back two heavy injures is a big question mark regarding his future. He needs to get into action in a more serious team. Then, we will have more clear opinion on him.
Until that time, Sipahi is my lock. Skip that primitive overview he can't shoot and etc, just realize his actual value. He is that guy who makes people around him look better. Defense is bonus. We can use him at least 6-7 years.
Akay had only one good season in average competition, he has a lot of rooms to prove something real, besides having back to back two heavy injures is a big question mark regarding his future. He needs to get into action in a more serious team. Then, we will have more clear opinion on him.
Until that time, Sipahi is my lock. Skip that primitive overview he can't shoot and etc, just realize his actual value. He is that guy who makes people around him look better. Defense is bonus. We can use him at least 6-7 years.
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Toruko2
Guest
After watching 3 games of Büyüktuncel (I know its far too early) and his superb defense, play making, rebounding skills we should really consider him too. It seems his skills are translating to the BSL level which is really great to watch. The guy really can defend all 5 positions more or less in Europe but lets wait till the league starts. What I have seen so far is really promising.
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Toruko2
Guest
OMFG!
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SaliH2
Guest
Yurtseven on a Bike... what exactly are we supposed to see here? That his shape is good or that he enjoys his summer in Miami while we needed him on the Eurobasket? A Eurobasket where his rebounding could have been very helpful for a team that couldn't grab rebounds even against Bulgaria...
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Toruko2
Guest
It seems we are on a very good way to solve the PF problem. After Berke B?y?ktuncel Sadik Emir Kabaca also made a big step forward offensively as well as Yigitcan Saybir. Considering the addition of Ercan Osmani there are four playable PFs for the NT.
Lets sum up the strength and weaknesses of all four guys shortly:
Berke B?y?ktuncel: 18 year old he is the youngest of all four guys and the guy with the biggest upside. He has tremendous defensive upside and can guard 2-4 everyone in Europe. He has a 25-30 minutes role with Tofas which is great. If he keeps making his 3 pointer surely a draft candidate in 2024.
Ercan Osmani: His body still needs work and he has some fundamental weaknesses. He causes too many TOs due to double dribbles, lack of hand eye coordination etc. but he has tremendous skills for a real 7 footer. He is a solid spot up shooter and can attack any close outs, has a mid range jumper, a solid ft shooter which is a rarity for the Turkish NT. I am sure he will land in Efes or FB next season. Defensively not the difference maker that I expected but still a guy who can defend.
Sadik Emir Kabaca: Averaged 12,5 points in two games in the FIBA CL. Made a huge step offensively. He looks way more matured this season and makes really good decisions in terms of scoring and sharing the ball but he has a long way to go defensively. He has the body to be a good defender but he cant read defensive games very good atm and he is very often too late for helps and he needs to bulk up in time.
Yigitcan Saybir: Very efficient game in Ljubljana. Unlike the others he has a EL body, doesnt give much on the offensive end. A faceup guy who is very solid in open court and a good cutter and a good defender so far for Eurocup level. His spot up shooting will decide about his ceiling.
All four have EL upside and Berke B?y?ktuncel can even have hopes for the NBA. Considering guys like Kerem Kuthan Konan, Yigit Hamza Mestoglu and Demir Dogan there are more than enough talent for the future too.
Of course we cant say we solved the problem until one or two guys here can deliver in the EL.
Lets sum up the strength and weaknesses of all four guys shortly:
Berke B?y?ktuncel: 18 year old he is the youngest of all four guys and the guy with the biggest upside. He has tremendous defensive upside and can guard 2-4 everyone in Europe. He has a 25-30 minutes role with Tofas which is great. If he keeps making his 3 pointer surely a draft candidate in 2024.
Ercan Osmani: His body still needs work and he has some fundamental weaknesses. He causes too many TOs due to double dribbles, lack of hand eye coordination etc. but he has tremendous skills for a real 7 footer. He is a solid spot up shooter and can attack any close outs, has a mid range jumper, a solid ft shooter which is a rarity for the Turkish NT. I am sure he will land in Efes or FB next season. Defensively not the difference maker that I expected but still a guy who can defend.
Sadik Emir Kabaca: Averaged 12,5 points in two games in the FIBA CL. Made a huge step offensively. He looks way more matured this season and makes really good decisions in terms of scoring and sharing the ball but he has a long way to go defensively. He has the body to be a good defender but he cant read defensive games very good atm and he is very often too late for helps and he needs to bulk up in time.
Yigitcan Saybir: Very efficient game in Ljubljana. Unlike the others he has a EL body, doesnt give much on the offensive end. A faceup guy who is very solid in open court and a good cutter and a good defender so far for Eurocup level. His spot up shooting will decide about his ceiling.
All four have EL upside and Berke B?y?ktuncel can even have hopes for the NBA. Considering guys like Kerem Kuthan Konan, Yigit Hamza Mestoglu and Demir Dogan there are more than enough talent for the future too.
Of course we cant say we solved the problem until one or two guys here can deliver in the EL.
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Camoka2
Guest
I wanna write my thoughts on Turkish guys.
Alperen - I do not understand what change recently but suddenly Silas decided to use Alperen with second unit. In preseason he started games with Alperen but then before the first game everything is changed. The reason behind that decision is they think KPJ and Green are main guys. But this is not correct and they will learn it hard way. I watched the game last night. Green is gifted scorer, also KPJ is nice shooter but KPJ is not a point guard.I think Houston decided their priorities wrongly and they gonna realize it soon. Alperen is in good shape, feels more comfortable beyond arc, and is better defender than last season. I do not like Jabari also but he is still young. Alperen and Green are most talented guys in the team. Alperen needs to put numbers like 15 pt, 10 reb and more every night. He has an opportunity in this season and I think he would do it. He can be Allstar in the future.
Cedi - He played good in the first game. It seems like he has a role in the team. Before season, it is possible that he would be out of rotation. But it seems like Cavs gonna use him like 6th man. He can be better shooter this season but overall he is same Cedi. But it is nice to have a role in team.
Furkan - He is out of rotation. But I think he was good in EuroBasket and preseason. This decision is not base on the fact that Furkan is worse than other guys. They have biases on him because of last season. But Phila has problems, they are 0-2. They almost get nothing from bench. No scoring, no playmaking. Team depends on Harden. At some point, Furkan would have a chance. Phila needs him. But it is just my opinion, we will see what will happen.
?mer - He is injured. We can not watch him. But Miami is 0-2 also. It means that they need some change and we gonna see what ?mer can do. But after all, if he does not play for national team, I do not care at all.
Alperen - I do not understand what change recently but suddenly Silas decided to use Alperen with second unit. In preseason he started games with Alperen but then before the first game everything is changed. The reason behind that decision is they think KPJ and Green are main guys. But this is not correct and they will learn it hard way. I watched the game last night. Green is gifted scorer, also KPJ is nice shooter but KPJ is not a point guard.I think Houston decided their priorities wrongly and they gonna realize it soon. Alperen is in good shape, feels more comfortable beyond arc, and is better defender than last season. I do not like Jabari also but he is still young. Alperen and Green are most talented guys in the team. Alperen needs to put numbers like 15 pt, 10 reb and more every night. He has an opportunity in this season and I think he would do it. He can be Allstar in the future.
Cedi - He played good in the first game. It seems like he has a role in the team. Before season, it is possible that he would be out of rotation. But it seems like Cavs gonna use him like 6th man. He can be better shooter this season but overall he is same Cedi. But it is nice to have a role in team.
Furkan - He is out of rotation. But I think he was good in EuroBasket and preseason. This decision is not base on the fact that Furkan is worse than other guys. They have biases on him because of last season. But Phila has problems, they are 0-2. They almost get nothing from bench. No scoring, no playmaking. Team depends on Harden. At some point, Furkan would have a chance. Phila needs him. But it is just my opinion, we will see what will happen.
?mer - He is injured. We can not watch him. But Miami is 0-2 also. It means that they need some change and we gonna see what ?mer can do. But after all, if he does not play for national team, I do not care at all.
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Toruko2
Guest
It is very difficult for him to be effective with KPJ and Green on the floor. Thats the reason he comes from the bench but he will start somewhere in the season.
After his desolate second half in the last season. It was expectable. He will have to wait for an injury but its time for him to change the team.
It seems you care after all. He hasnt retired from the NT. He was just pissed that he got 10 minutes playing time against GB. Ataman made him feel that he is clearly behind Sanli in that shape. He hasnt reacted correctly but I can understand him.
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Toruko2
Guest
Ok, time for a break down... First of all I am happy that Ataman listened to us and implemented Sipahi to the team. It paid off even though we lost to Serbia by one point. I still wait for Akay to have a stable start. Still a strong, very strong believer of this guy but as long as he is not ready Sipahi is our guy.
Its interesting that we have so many up-risers of young guys. Even better is the situation Bitim is able to lead such a strong Eurocup team scoring wise. Kabaca, Osmani can be trusted offensively and I understand now why "Slice me nice" was so high on Buyuktuncel after the U18 EC. Its really exciting to see him developing offensively beside his superb defense.
The PF position was a real problem some month ago and with Birsen performing it really looks we could have a luxury problem in the future. I dont trust him much since he is a sleeping pill but I acknowledge his effort in the EL especially on the defensive end. I mean they will not dominate against top teams but we can at least compete and having so many options on this position we can use Buyuktuncel as a difference maker as a SF.
Our problem was never scoring although there are struggles creating against top teams but we can neither protect the rim nor can we show some resilience coming from our backcourt. We need players who can react to different situations. The test using Osman as a PF didnt work at all. We couldnt grab a fucking rebound so just forget it but a backcourt lineup with Larkin, Bitim, Osman can defend as well as score.
Bona is by far not at that level I expected him to be and it could be a crucial mistake to go to the states since he is used as a mere rim runner. He showed so much more in Europe but even with such a small skill set he will clean up Senguns mistakes. I think our future team is set and the depth chart looks good.
Larkin, Akay, Sipahi
Bitim, Korkmaz, Hazer
Osman, Buyuktuncel, Birsen
Bona, Osmani, Kabaca
Sengun, Yurtseven, Sanli
This team will be able to beat anyone in two years.
Its interesting that we have so many up-risers of young guys. Even better is the situation Bitim is able to lead such a strong Eurocup team scoring wise. Kabaca, Osmani can be trusted offensively and I understand now why "Slice me nice" was so high on Buyuktuncel after the U18 EC. Its really exciting to see him developing offensively beside his superb defense.
The PF position was a real problem some month ago and with Birsen performing it really looks we could have a luxury problem in the future. I dont trust him much since he is a sleeping pill but I acknowledge his effort in the EL especially on the defensive end. I mean they will not dominate against top teams but we can at least compete and having so many options on this position we can use Buyuktuncel as a difference maker as a SF.
Our problem was never scoring although there are struggles creating against top teams but we can neither protect the rim nor can we show some resilience coming from our backcourt. We need players who can react to different situations. The test using Osman as a PF didnt work at all. We couldnt grab a fucking rebound so just forget it but a backcourt lineup with Larkin, Bitim, Osman can defend as well as score.
Bona is by far not at that level I expected him to be and it could be a crucial mistake to go to the states since he is used as a mere rim runner. He showed so much more in Europe but even with such a small skill set he will clean up Senguns mistakes. I think our future team is set and the depth chart looks good.
Larkin, Akay, Sipahi
Bitim, Korkmaz, Hazer
Osman, Buyuktuncel, Birsen
Bona, Osmani, Kabaca
Sengun, Yurtseven, Sanli
This team will be able to beat anyone in two years.
S
Straight forward2
Guest
You mean this team will have a chance to show up on the stage in two years, right?
Seriously, your optimism is always over the top and I like optimistic and passionate posters, but "able to beat anyone" is another exaggeration off course. Just as you were too optimistic in 2019 saying that 2022 EB will be Turkey's tournament. FOA, there's no point guard. ATM your absolutely best shot is to go with foreigner once again, but that works rarely. Absolute majority NT which wins medals have their own studs at this position.
SOA, I'm not sure I see starting level 2. Korkmaz may be very close to that, and I think ATM he's either boderline or true starer. So maybe Korkmaz in an answer for this decade at 2. Bitim from what I've seen, and may seen too little, is a scorer, but not exactly complete piece at 2. To be a starter you have to be complete player at 2, IMO. Something like Siskauskas, De Colo, Navarro. To me Bitim seems like shooting first swingman.
There's no staring 3. I could see Buyuktuncel becoming starting 4, but I don't think he's 3. Osman is a role player by all means. If you ask him to do too much, it will be a failure again.
Both Sengun and specially Bona are centers. There's no doubt about it. Sengun may play some 4 too, but not a great fit.
Generally speaking, there's no definite answers at 1-3. More like a bunch of role players. From your prospects there's no single 1-3 players drafted or having indisputable upside to be elite EL piece.
Aside frontline ( think Sengun, Bona, Buyuktuncel) are elite pieces and that should do it, there's no true studs in the backcourt and that's why there's no objective point to claim anything about future success. More like Turkey is not competition for such countries as Spain, France, Serbia (as always).
T
Toruko2
Guest
Sure, there is no doubt.
Nope, this is a very common expectation.
I was never optimistic in 2019 because the team was very limited. 2022 was clearly the wrong team but nevertheless the team showed it can keep up with any big team in the tournament. This team will be no comparison to the team in two years.
OK, lets take a look at the competition in the best European teams at that time. Who will be there. Will it be Siskauskas, De Colo or Navarro? It will be guys like Grigonis, a 34 year old Sloukas, Bogdanovic who has knee problems all the time, Evan Fournier. Nothing to worry. In whole Europe there will be guy who can be seen better than Korkmaz or Bitim except Fournier or Bogdanovic.
The Turkish NT is even without a Calathes, Micic level PG able to score and it will just get much better than 2022.
What am I asking? Osman will be the fifth scoring option or lower in such a team and I dont see a better SF either in Europe. Dont give him the ball in decisive moments and thats it. Buyuktuncel can play in the perimeter as well as in the paint and he is right now able to defend most of his competitors in the BSL and he is right now able to score.
You are thinking too much in templates. There is no reason of not being able to work to together and even if the team would need a true floor stretcher, the team will have more than enough from four position and five.
There are with Cedi Osman and Furkan Korkmaz two guys who could play for elite EL teams. Korkmaz will probably return by then to Europe and Bitim who I expect to become a very good EL level player too by then. Even now Bitim is the best two way forward/guard type player outside of EL and with a much better Buyuktuncel in two years its the complete package.
Sure, the accumulated states will be building the front line in the rankings and they always were able to be beaten a couple month ago and the Turkish team showed enough that it can compete with them. I think your way of thinking is that my claim is the Turkish team is in front of those teams. No, but there is no reason why the Turkish team cant beat them. Its a very deep and talented team which will be much stronger in two years.
The point of success is not the number of star power but a balanced team which can answer to every need and this team can give an answer to every need. Let me give an example. Sengun had a slow start but a good overall show up. The problems with him and with Sanli were that they cant guard guys like Nurkic, JV or Jokic. Sanli is too weak and too slow for fighting such guys under the rim and Sengun even if strong enough in two years is not tall and athletic enough and in addition to that there is no wingspan to help him out. A real problem and a point of attack which could be seen in the Qualification game against Serbia in Turkey.
An answer is a rim protector and a help defender which is Bona. He is a rim running big man without a main weapon in the offense but Seng?ns passing can utilize him well and Bona can clean up the mess Sengun is causing in the defense. Its surely not a perfect fit until Sengun can stretch the floor but it will work.
As in terms of perimeter defense and shot creation this team is also very capable. There will be no match in two years except the 3-4 countries you mentioned.
S
Straight forward2
Guest
Oh I wouldn't take it like this. Not old Bogdanovic or Fournier will be best SGs in Europe in 2025. It will be positionless freaks, extremely long and skilled swingmen (if you like), like F. Wagner, Banchero, Pokusevski, (maybe even Buzelis already).
The problem with Turkey that there's no perimeter players who can build the identity for your NT. Turkey traditionally lacking traditional Euro PG, guys with tremendous IQ, facilitators. You usually have shooters, but lacking complete players. Hedo is the only exception in your BB history. The only elite, high IQ, complete perimeter player. So position 1 is your biggest problem. You don't have guys who would brake and make your one sided offensive identity. OK, I'm fine with Korkmaz at 2, but there's no game changer, no floor general.
Spain has Nunez, Lithuania has Jokubaitis and Buzelis, France has Killian Hayes (who's braking out ATM) and Maledon, Cissoko and so on and on and on, Serbia has Micic, Poku and Durisic, Slovenia has at least 3-4 elite perimeter prospects, Germany has Wagner, Italy has Banchero (even if that's not entirely fair, but at least he has some connections with the country). Turkey simply does not have game chancing ball handler/facilitator. There's no truly elite perimeter prospects in Turkey. Korkmaz and Cedi are nice, but not game changers. Buyuktuncel is not a perimeter player.
To be close and to win are 2 different things. Teams like Latvia, Turkey and even Lithuania are good examples recently. Better teams simply win close games. That's how it usually is. It's not like you create good team and sweep everything. You create the good team and you win close games and step on the podium with medal. Being close can be little flattering. You're on the losing side.
You think you can win without fundamentally sound ball handlers, facilitators, elite decision makers. I claim it's basically impossible. Even naturalized Americans with high IQ is very rare. Brown is an exemption and for him it took half a decade to crack EL/FIBA ball. I don't treat Larkin/Wilbekin as elite decision makers/facilitators, they are elite scorers, ISO guards. Turkey badly need former kind of players, not the latter. And locally there's no such material, at least not in the horizon now (unless there's still something in Akay).
With that said, Turkey will be better in 2025- 2030 than you have been 2017-2022. But I don't see pieces that you truly need to change your BB culture which starts with elite decision making and facilitating perimeter players.
The problem with Turkey that there's no perimeter players who can build the identity for your NT. Turkey traditionally lacking traditional Euro PG, guys with tremendous IQ, facilitators. You usually have shooters, but lacking complete players. Hedo is the only exception in your BB history. The only elite, high IQ, complete perimeter player. So position 1 is your biggest problem. You don't have guys who would brake and make your one sided offensive identity. OK, I'm fine with Korkmaz at 2, but there's no game changer, no floor general.
Spain has Nunez, Lithuania has Jokubaitis and Buzelis, France has Killian Hayes (who's braking out ATM) and Maledon, Cissoko and so on and on and on, Serbia has Micic, Poku and Durisic, Slovenia has at least 3-4 elite perimeter prospects, Germany has Wagner, Italy has Banchero (even if that's not entirely fair, but at least he has some connections with the country). Turkey simply does not have game chancing ball handler/facilitator. There's no truly elite perimeter prospects in Turkey. Korkmaz and Cedi are nice, but not game changers. Buyuktuncel is not a perimeter player.
To be close and to win are 2 different things. Teams like Latvia, Turkey and even Lithuania are good examples recently. Better teams simply win close games. That's how it usually is. It's not like you create good team and sweep everything. You create the good team and you win close games and step on the podium with medal. Being close can be little flattering. You're on the losing side.
You think you can win without fundamentally sound ball handlers, facilitators, elite decision makers. I claim it's basically impossible. Even naturalized Americans with high IQ is very rare. Brown is an exemption and for him it took half a decade to crack EL/FIBA ball. I don't treat Larkin/Wilbekin as elite decision makers/facilitators, they are elite scorers, ISO guards. Turkey badly need former kind of players, not the latter. And locally there's no such material, at least not in the horizon now (unless there's still something in Akay).
With that said, Turkey will be better in 2025- 2030 than you have been 2017-2022. But I don't see pieces that you truly need to change your BB culture which starts with elite decision making and facilitating perimeter players.
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Toruko2
Guest
First of all Buyuktuncel is both. He is being used as 3 and 4 and sometimes even as 5 but thats not the point. Nunez has shown nothing so far. Sure he is a talented passer but he is struggling scoring wise. To expect him to lead in 2024 is just a dream. Jokubaitis is a player that you are massively overestimating. As I told you before he is a fairly bad perimeter defender and offensively he has no extinct weapons. He is not carrying a team he wont do it in the future and he is not such a type of player. This Buzelis kid is playing in a very low level and you are calculating with a kid who has never come playing for any of your NTs. Let him show something in higher level games then we can talk about his impact.
Slovienia surely has some perimeter player that I like very much but in terms of bigs and 3-4 position players it is fairly blanc. This invincible Slovenian team was beaten by Poland and Bosnia.
Wagner is not a carrier either. Yeah he shot very well and he is really big and can move very well but he alone is not a factor. He is a very good wing defender and he can use his speed and good footwork to go to the rim but what you saw in Germany this summer was a fluke. The point is Germany is also very deep like the Turkish team and has various options. Very good perimeter and wing defenders and even a rim protector with Kleber, Bonga and Wagner, stretching and passing bigs, enough play making and self created shooting quality with Maodo Lo, and a elite slasher with Schr?der. Germany is surely dangerous but not better than the Turkish team in the future.
Banchero is truly different than the others, thats really true. I mean he is fucking huge, Lebron covers insanely much space but Banchero is also tall and he can move with the ball and can pass and he has also shooting upside. He has the whole package.
When we come to the Turkish 1-2 positions. Bitim is right now a far better player than Korkmaz. Writing Korkmaz is nice with letting Bitim aside shows that you dont know about the Turkish team right now. With the play making options you are definitely right. There is much hope with Akay. He hasnt shown anything so far and after two knee injuries we simply cant know his level but like I told you before too this gap can be filled by Larkin easily. He is more than enough making plays. He had more assists than Jokubaitis as I had proclaimed before the Eurobasket.
You are too fixated on perimeter players. Greece had two of them with Calathes and Sloukas and probably the best player in the world with Giannis and got 107 points against Germany? According to your logic they must have won easily. In order to be successful you need every element. Lets take Spain. A very good general defender like Garuba, a specialized perimeter defender like Alberto Diaz a very solid low post scorer with Hernangomez and very good overall role players around who can go to the rim as well as shoot.
If Spain didnt have Alberto Diaz for example Spain wouldnt have won 3 games. He had 3 clear game finishing moves also against LTU.
This is surely correct but you dont get the reasons why this is so. Turkey and LTU are lacking elite defensive stoppers, experience and winner players who can finish the game. LTUs perimeter defense was horrible so ours. You on the other hand had very capable and ready bigs and our bigs looked not very ready and Sengun was too young. The problem is clear. LTU must always choose between offense and defense. If you put Sedekerskis, Ulanovas or even Butkevicius you lose critical offensive power. What you lack is beside a finisher a guy who can make an impact on both ends and for the Turkish side you cant expect a good defending team with Tuncer, Mahmutoglu and Korkmaz. This was an ok offensive team but the defense was more than shit. A better team we could see in the last window. Ataman is learning and this shitty defensive team wil change with the better versions of the current guys Buyuktuncel and Bona.
The Turkish team lacks a star. Thats a point but there are many teams with this disadvantage. We hope Sengun can get to a borderline allstar player with some defensive deficiencies like your Sabonis is but the weapon of the Turkish team will be the deep roster with various players. A balanced offense and defense with all needed elements to be successful.
Like I said you are too fixated on one element of the game. If good decision makers would be enough Greece must have won everything so far. They have two guys better than Brown and the best player in the world right now and Greece couldnt even get a medal. Why so? Its easy. They have too few players who can play on both ends and they lack shooting.
Alberto Diaz and Garuba were much more impactful than Brown could have been in the decisive games.
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Straight forward2
Guest
Dude, Jokuabitis is the best young PG in Euroleague. Has been for 3 years now. I mean what is his competition to begin to downgrade him? 2 years injured Akay?
No-one is even close in EL from youngsters to Jokubaitis' readiness. No-one even close. All puppies compared to his readiness and decision making. Jokubaitis has been closing tons of Barca's game already. Some guys never will do it as much in their careers. It's not like he should be some sort of Manu or Parker. Totally taking over. I don't project him something like that. He is the guy who can be something like Jasikevicius (with better defence). Fundamentally sound, perfect decision making PG who establishes perfect team offense. Nunez is huge. Nothing to take away from him. He was MVP of U20 being 2 years younger. He'll be a baller. Have in mind his age.
Who is carrier if Wagner is not?
I mean the guy just scratching the surface. His numbers are nearly equal to Pau's as 21yo rookie in EB. Was Pau not a carrier too? Wagner will be tremendous and game changer for Germany as 2 ways freak. BTW, differently than you, I'm not sure Germany will have what it takes once Schroder will step down. Buzelis has too many obvious eyes opening advantages to say that he's complete enigma ATM. There's all tools for him to be good. He is registered in FIBA as Lithuanian NT member officially. Off course, he may become some sort of B. Simmons who never comes, but I think he'll play for the NT many seasons.
Greece simply lacking more quality roster ATM and shooting. Sloukas to me is more of a COMBO than PG BTW. I wouldn't want to build around Sloukas as primarily PG. Not for LTU NT. He's more of a rhythm scorer than true facilitator.
Bitim is better than Korkmaz? Are you sure?
A guy who scored 0 points in 11 minutes in Eurobasket? OK, he's progressing, but he didn't even played in EL yet. Your problem that you push too many of your favs without any emprical data. Like from Lithuanian section you nearly believed that Rubstavicius and Murauskas could help NT already. They wouldn't. The same way Buy wouldn't help current Turkish NT. IDK how much unleashed Bitim would help, but I really don't think he's better than Korkmaz. At least no single objective prove for that. Let him prove something in EL first. An no, Diaz was not even close in terms of importance for Spain compared to Brown. Nor was Garuba. Brown was totally key for Spain without a question. If not his ability to run the team, to read mismatches and to make precise decisions, Spain wouldn't go anywhere. He totally closed 8finals against Lithuania, did the same in semis and so on...
Lithuania not only lacking defence, but also perimeter guys who could truly lead like we had in the future with Marciulionis (90s), later Saras/Siska (00's), and even prime Kalnietis (10's). Jokubatis will get there in the future though. And Buzelis has the potential to be indisputable world class perimeter star. To be honest I'm leaning towards the idea to have good starting line-up and few spot on role players than 10-12 average/solid EL players (the team that would probably be considered deep). In other words, give me 3-5 elite pieces and I can live with few defensive mediocrities as my bench. That's how 2017 Slovenia won Eurobasket. That's how Lithuania in 90's had been top 3 NT in Olympics constantly.
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Toruko2
Guest
Did you read something like Akay > Jokubaitis? The generational compare doesnt say anything about the value of a player in the ocean of European players. The point is what do you expect from him and what can he deliver? He is a good piece of a bunch of players. He is someone who is needed but he is not a difference maker, at least not now. Lets say he is one of the best of 2000 born player. Does this make him a top player? Not a chance. Lets take Osman. He is piece in the NBA and was one of the best players of the 95 generation. What is his contribution? He is a good piece but the role he has filled out so far was wrong. You see in Jokubaitis a player who he simply isnt.
He can be huge but not in two years.
Germany has enough play making prospects coming. They wont be one of the best slashers in the World like Schr?der but they will survive with their politics of using local players. Germany is a respectable team but we have to wait if they can continue to bring what it takes to be successful outside of Germany. Franz is surely one of the best players in Europe but you cant expect from him shooting like he did in the last summer. You simply cant. He can reach that level but its not sure.
Let him come, let him play and then I will gladly give my opinion about him and the LTU NT. We have a idiom that describes the situation with him very well. We say "what would I do if I had a son and he would die". Get the son first and lets check then again.
Combo is enough, more than enough and Greece is filled with EL level players. They have two guards who belong to the best in Europe and it is not enough so your thesis of needing a play maker doesnt work. You need one but it alone is not enough. I wrote what you need above.
The first tournament and a fitting role is very difficult. He was very anxious and not ready. Winning him in this tournament was my hope and it didnt happen. Ataman goes with readiness. He wants to know what he can get out of a player. He is not risking a player who hasnt shown much under him. We did it in the last FIBA window and he will grow steadily.
Korkmaz on the other side is sitting on the bench and waiting for being ditched. If you want success you need someone who has the ball in his hands again and again in crucial situations. Thats the reason why we fail in crucial game endings. The players are not ready for the pressure because they never felt it. And it really doesnt matter if it FCL level or EL or Eurocup. Of course we want him to be in this role one level higher and he will reach that level.
My approach is to use a not ready guy who is talented over a guy you wont get something out of someone so Bitim over Mahmutoglu and Murauskas over lets say Ulanovas. With Rubstavicius you were right. I overestimated him heavily but it would have been better for you to fail with Murauskas.
You should really watch the game endings again. Of course Brown was the main decision maker so was Calathes. The main difference is Brown has the material to be successful and Calathes hasnt.
Yeah LTU lacks quality in the 2-3-4 positions and must decide between offense and defense and neither offense guys nor defense guys are difference makers. As I told you that your perimeter defense is bad you claimed that they are not that bad and it was. If you have someone who can create and score at will fine. I have to see it first.