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Team USA 2019/2020

  • Thread starter Thread starter Steadysoul2
  • Start date Start date
Carmelo Anthony’s inclusion on this team was ridiculed and rightfully so as being a life time achievement award that obviously shouldn’t apply. Same should be the case with Popovich. There plenty of coaches out there who are s lot younger and deserve a shot. Pop’s history as an assistant and now lead guy has led to one disaster after another. (‘02, ‘04 and ‘19).
At least Carmelo had a successful history and association with USA basketball unlike a Popovich.
 
I will write another wallpaper, hope no one minds. :D If you do, you have all the right to just not read and skip it.

I agree that Pop and team USA might not be a match made in heaven... And Colangelo mostly emphasize on how much this means to Popovich, his previous involvement with the national team, his patriotism, his name, reputation and what he has done in the NBA and for basketball in general, so he deserves a gold medal and some happy moments on international stage. Like I said, no other names were even considered to replace Coach K. Even after the 2004 Olympics, Colangelo was choosing between Pop and Coach K. This whole thing works very or almost completely differently to what Popovich has built his name on. The amount of time you can prepare team USA is extremely short, for each tournament you get almost a completely new team, you have barely any continuity, you have to make it simple and effective. Coach K managed to realize a lot of things after 2006 and he was talking with Pop a lot, even before Popovich got the job.

On the other hand, you obviously have something that even Coach K did not face to this scale, which is players just literally refusing to play. The weakest team he had was back in 2010. Love, Curry, Westbrook were all young, Curry basicly being 11-12th man like Granger and having absolutely no impact. Odom playing as C, Rose struggling a lot to adapt to Fiba, Gordon and Billups missing a lot of 3 pointers and Rudy Gay doing what he can, but mostly being mediocre. Rondo withdrawing after some friendly games. So, basicly the entire core of that team was Durant, which single handed carried the entire offense, Iguodala being the defensive anchor and Odom providing as the universal, quick big, because Chandler couldn`t stay out of foul trouble and being rather limited. They almost lost to Spain during a friendly game, I think they won only by two points, but they beat Lithuania and Greece in the friendly cycle, also ending up without a single lose, having only one additional tough game against Brazil in group stage. They were very beatable, nothing like the Redeem Team, a completely new group of guys, you can also say they lacked experience badly, they lacked size, they lacked shooting, which was compensated mostly by only one man in the shape and form of young KD. Some say that a lot of international NBA stars did not show up that summer so it was much easier, but once again, they faced Lithuania in the Semi finals and Lithuania had some sick games during that tournament, then they faced the host Turkey with Turkoglu and they were giving it all in front of their supporters. A friendly game against Spain was one heck of game as well, but they still managed to win it all. Coach K ended with only one defeat from 2006 to 2016, including all the meaningless friendly games (playing twice against Spain in their own territory). This year, they already lost 3 times and miraculously escaped a deafeat against Turkey. Basicly, the only easy game they had was against Japan and more or less Czech. Yet, when you look at these lost games – you have one against Australia and it surely wasnt just a regular friendly for the Australians, generating record crowd, having a golden opportunity to beat USA in front of everybody, making a statement. They played hard and they won the second game, having in mind that Joe Harris, the best 3 point shooter in the team, missed an open final shot. Then they lost against France, having +7, Mitchell being on fire, but suddenly stopping and letting Kemba make one poor decisions after another. After the game reporter asked if France managed to take Mitchell out of the game in fourth quarter. The answer was – NO. And Pop was rather irritated by that question. So what happened to Mitchell? Losing to Serbia didnt mean much, especially when they lost the first quarter by 32-7.

So, what I am trying to say, even with this „poor“ team like many try to paint, they had all the chance to reach at least semi finals or even final. Was it because of Popovich that they managed to win their first 5 games and lost to France only after a tough fight? Him being able to mask of how actually poor this team was? Or was it because of him that they underperformed and underachieved, because they could have played with more aggression, faster tempo, less rotational mumbo jumbo and better selection of the remaining guys they had? In my belief, they had the potential to do more and still were one of the best/if not the best squad in the entire WC. I still think it is a 50/50 situation, where the coaching staff could have done better at handling things (what happened to Fox? Why was Adebayo cut so fast and Plumlee/Lopez made the team? Were they trying to free up space for Bagley who just refused to play even after being promoted from the Select Team? What role did Middleton have? Why did Harris get so many minutes? Why Mitchell wasnt the main guy against France till the end? Why Turner was benched for so long?) and then you have players who were missing a lot of wide open shots, some of them clearly being not in the best shape or injured like Smart.

Then you have things that you cant control, like injuries (the team being already stripped down to its very bone, then losing both Kuzma and Tatum was just brutal) and influence from outside. Why Pop refused to make all these additional practises? Was it his decision or a recommendation for the sake of load management? Was Tatum really as hurt so he couldnt play even for 10-15 minutes in the live or die game? Or was that once again out of coaching staff control? On one hand, being the coach of team USA, you have the access to greatest talent in the world and yet you get to deal with so much crap and things you cant change. Obviously the national team is treated as inferior by clubs and some players themselves. So, even if they loan a player for a tournament, there are most likely limits as to how much you can use these players, how much you can train and practise. And then you get players on other teams who give all they have, despite playing in NBA and earning millions as well. Remember Dragic in that Euro final against Serbia? He couldnt even stand on his feet after the ridiculously incredible performance in the first half, he had to be substitute before the game even ended. Patty Mills being exhausted against Spain and not holding anything back pretty much during entire tournament. I`m not saying the US players are/were not trying, they did, but there still is a certain difference in mentality, the meaning, importance and passion. Just like when Giannis said he would trade his MVP title for a title with the national team.

Pop has faced a lot of diversity and never really had a chance to coach a team that would be at least similar to 08/12/16. 02/04 was mostly crap and while the Olympic team had some star players, but was far, far from the A or even B+ team at the time, also Popovich was not the main guy back then. This year was a freak one regarding withdrawals, something that Coach K faced as well, but not to such scale. If the trends and timing of WC was like this back in 2014 and 2010, I doubt we would have seen Cousins, Davis, Harden, Curry, Thompson or KD. Even if at that time they were not the players they are today (apart from Cousins obviously), they would still be on pair/considered better than a lot of high caliber guys who clearly said "nope" this summer. Add up at least Beal, Lillard to this year team and you would already have similarities with 2014.

So, if they actually are able to gather at least B+ team next year, I would like to see how Pop manages it, because for the first time he would have all the tools in the world to win the gold. If they still lose... Well, then there`s almost none excuses left. The one that the world has catched up and there will be no easy life for the likes of Curry, Harden, Davis, George - does not convince me. I think the difference is still there.
 
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Great post.I agree with everything you wrote.Especially the part about the NBA franchises being a huge obstacle in team USA success.
 
Great post.I agree with everything you wrote.Especially the part about the NBA franchises being a huge obstacle in team USA success.

Not all NBA franchises have boycotted team USA (or was it Popovic?)... Bucks, Celtics and the Kings didn't deny any of their players to participate in the FIBA world cup... My guess is that these same teams will be the ones that will benefit the most this season too...
 
I've jumped on interesting conversation why USA collapsed, obviously there's plenty of similarities between 2004 and 2019 teams, even if some differences as well. But one interesting question stood out. Jefferson said, eventually USA will field their very best players and they will still lose. Other guy disagreed, but Jefferson replied it already nearly happened in 2000, when Lithuania was absolutely close taking USA down with basically most of best players of that time (Shaq aside I guess mainly and maybe some other star, but Lithuania also was Sabonis, Ilgauskas and Karnisovas less).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G17p3AafrfQ
 
I've jumped on interesting conversation why USA collapsed, obviously there's plenty of similarities between 2004 and 2019 teams, even if some differences as well. But one interesting question stood out. Jefferson said, eventually USA will field their very best players and they will still lose. Other guy disagreed, but Jefferson replied it already nearly happened in 2000, when Lithuania was absolutely close taking USA down with basically most of best players of that time (Shaq aside I guess mainly and maybe some other star, but Lithuania also was Sabonis, Ilgauskas and Karnisovas less).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G17p3AafrfQ

It will take an historically good team for this to happen like prime Spain and i dont see such a team on the horizon.I mean Spain won the title fair and square.But if you see their roster,besides Hernagomez and Rubio,they relied on over 30 year old players.They had 3 players on the bench who didnt play at all.Their abscences besides Abrines were again players on the verge or over 30.My point is they have stopped producing quality players.For me the whole "the world is catching up with USA' has become a cliche at this point and i see no substantial evidence of this.In fact i'd argue that international basketball as a whole was in far better shape in 2000-2008 than today when it comes to depth of quality players.
 
It will take an historically good team for this to happen like prime Spain and i dont see such a team on the horizon.I mean Spain won the title fair and square.But if you see their roster,besides Hernagomez and Rubio,they relied on over 30 year old players.They had 3 players on the bench who didnt play at all.Their abscences besides Abrines were again players on the verge or over 30.My point is they have stopped producing quality players.For me the whole "the world is catching up with USA' has become a cliche at this point and i see no substantial evidence of this.In fact i'd argue that international basketball as a whole was in far better shape in 2000-2008 than today when it comes to depth of quality players.

I agree actually. My point probably was, can you imagine how big that Lithuania 2000 was? USA had a heck of a team. And I agree on 2000-2008 stretch, but now more teams are quality, I would say a borderline good as best teams in 00's were. The very TOP kinda declined. Lithuania, Spain, Greece, Argentina surely and even I would still pick early 00's Serbia over current one, and likely France as well (but that's close in France case, they had a very good team this year, IMO). But things might change quickly, not many people saw Lithuania playing like they did in 2000. The facts that support Jefferson side, is that internationals level in NBA is ever high and best BB player under-25 in the world is all basically internationals at the moment.
 
But USA isnt playing against the world in international competitions but against other national teams.Embiid and Towns are amongst those international under 25 players you mention but i seriously doubt they will ever play in a FIBA tournament.It will take a single national team to concentrate some serious elite level talent in order to threaten the best of US.Doncic accompanied by Vidmar and Prepelic wont cut it,neither Giannis and Larentzakis.The best candidate for this funnily enough is Canada but they seem even less eager than Americans to play for their NT.
 
But USA isnt playing against the world in international competitions but against other national teams.Embiid and Towns are amongst those international under 25 players you mention but i seriously doubt they will ever play in a FIBA tournament.It will take a single national team to concentrate some serious elite level talent in order to threaten the best of US.Doncic accompanied by Vidmar and Prepelic wont cut it,neither Giannis and Larentzakis.The best candidate for this funnily enough is Canada but they seem even less eager than Americans to play for their NT.

Yeah, basically, but it's more like a symptom, internationals number increasing and MVPs becoming international players. Aside Canada as an obvious case to blossom if they will create some continuity and culture, France may also be in the race. Fournier, Gobert only coming to their prime, elite prospects as Frank Ntilikina, Élie Okobo, Sekou Doumbouya. Obviously Serbia has a heck of a team and tons of prospects. But, yeah, Canada is the only international NT with huge NBA material army at the moment.
 
@Straight Forward.

The 2012 and especially 2008 close games are better examples of the USA’s top guys almost getting beat than 2000 is.
2000 was a strong team but it was not the A team. Shaq, Duncan, Grant Hill, Kobe, Iverson, Webber, and Karl Malone were not on it. The backcourt of Kidd and Payton were A level as was Garnett. Mourning was the third best true big behind Shaq and Duncan so he was very high caliber as well. And Vince Carter would have had a good shot to make A team as well. But after those 5 it would be very hard for anyone else to make the Usa top roster. Maybe Ray Allen. So it was a B+ A- type team but not our best that played hard games with Spain in ‘12 and especially ‘08.
 
@Straight Forward.

The 2012 and especially 2008 close games are better examples of the USA’s top guys almost getting beat than 2000 is.
2000 was a strong team but it was not the A team. Shaq, Duncan, Grant Hill, Kobe, Iverson, Webber, and Karl Malone were not on it. The backcourt of Kidd and Payton were A level as was Garnett. Mourning was the third best true big behind Shaq and Duncan so he was very high caliber as well. And Vince Carter would have had a good shot to make A team as well. But after those 5 it would be very hard for anyone else to make the Usa top roster. Maybe Ray Allen. So it was a B+ A- type team but not our best that played hard games with Spain in ‘12 and especially ‘08.

On other hand, that A- team really was absolutely on a line. It all came down to Siskauskas missed FTs in the last minute. If he had made all three, that's it. Spain made a huge and nice effort, but Lithuania was literally about to push USA to abyss and yet slipped. Spain never was so close, but also USA had even more talent.
 
On other hand, that A- team really was absolutely on a line. It all came down to Siskauskas missed FTs in the last minute. If he had made all three, that's it. Spain made a huge and nice effort, but Lithuania was literally about to push USA to abyss and yet slipped. Spain never was so close, but also USA had even more talent.

Well Lithuania would have been in a great position up 3 with 40 seconds. But it wasn’t over by any means. Incidentally that Vince Carter basket down 1 was probably the clutches basket ever for the USA.

But I do agree that the 2008 and especially 2012 finals against Spain are often overblown in how close the US actually came to losing. They were tight hard fought games without a doubt in the final 2 minutes the US was not in any danger of actually losing like they were against Lithuania in 2000. Other than the actual eliminations the US has suffered in ‘02, ‘04, 06 and ‘19 that was the only real close call. And as you mentioned that was a B+/ A- team and not a World Cup/Championships quality US unit.
 
As of today with an entire season ahead of us and ruling out Durant and Klay Thompson due to recovery from major injuries, here’s my A team top 9 players that I would use.

Stephen Curry, Kyrie Irving
James Harden, Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard, Paul George
LeBron James, Draymond Green
Anthony Davis
 
As of today with an entire season ahead of us and ruling out Durant and Klay Thompson due to recovery from major injuries, here’s my A team top 9 players that I would use.

Stephen Curry, Kyrie Irving
James Harden, Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard, Paul George
LeBron James, Draymond Green
Anthony Davis

More or less - same here. Although, I think we both know that won`t be happening. LeBron and Kawhi being the biggest question marks.

There should also be at least 2-3 guys from this year team, at least according to Colangelo. He mentioned the names of Walker, Mitchell and most interesting - Marcus Smart. :confused:

Also, Colangelo expanded a bit more on his disappointments... Mainly he was pissed off the most about players who generally agreed to play in WC, dragged things on and then backed off before the Las Vegas training camp. He would have appreciated a straight "No" from the very beginning, just like most of the main guys did. It makes sense, no arguing about that and he has all the right to be disappointed, I`m just wondering how far he is willing to go with the "holding a grudge" thing. Lillard was one of the players who removed himself rather late, almost at the same time with Kevin Love. Will he be evaluated differently from now on? He is too good for that. Funny enough, Lillard had some conflicts with team USA back in 2014 when he was cut from the roster, while Rose made the team instead, along with Plumlee/Drummond in preparation for the Spain threat. He even went as far as saying he`ll never play for the national team anymore. Yet, the past is the past, he is willing to play now and just move forward. I think Colangelo will do the same. I mean, Colangelo vs Lillard, Harden, Davis? Who would everyone support? Actually, you don`t even need those type of names, you pick Colangelo vs pretty much any of the guys who have withdrawn and you`d have 99% telling Colangelo to go away if he can`t handle things. Players are above all in NBA and everything will be forgotten pretty fast if they bring super stars to Tokyo and win gold. In some perspective, it would be nice having set certain boundaries, having the prestige built of the national team, so no one mess around with it as they did this summer, taking everything for granted... But not with team USA, because they will never have continuity or as deep traditions as the other national team have. Olympics are 4 years apart - that`s a long time. And you have WC in the mean time, which will never attract the best players, not to mention all sort of qualifiers that D-League players have to compete in. Too many different rosters, too many different conditions, scheduling, reasoning to hold grudges or being able to make players commit not only for one tournament, but for the entire cycle. Basketball is pretty much a mess, compared with the structure of football world.
 
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