Semifinals: USA vs. Argentina

[rikhardur2]

Man, I just don't see how a team leading by so many points and being so superior needs to beat their chest like that. I just can't accept that, sorry. Play your game, win by 30+, stay humble, don't be arrogant.

Actually, this came to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_quarter

 

[Warped2]

For all the times I have hated the Argentinian team it is kind of surreal to see one of the most underrated and interesting rivalries in basketball (not on here but in the general public) most likely come to an end.

Can someone with more knowledge tell me how Argentina is doing on the youth end? Are they going to be completely gone from the elite or are they just taking a break for a bit before a new generation comes in?

 

[rikhardur2]

Just saw the stats again and the most glaring stat line is Scola's 1 rebound. That's 1 offensive rebound, he had ZERO defensive rebounds.

That's just impressive in a bad way. Goes to show how the US dominated the boards both defensively and offensively.

 

[Pleasant2]

Can someone with more knowledge tell me how Argentina is doing on the youth end? Are they going to be completely gone from the elite or are they just taking a break for a bit before a new generation comes in?

One of their younger players, Gabriel Deck, dominated the U17 World Championship this year and has the attention of a lot of scouts: http://kaunas2012.fiba.com/pages/en.../pid/79872/rid//sid/6228/tid/237/profile.html

Obviously, he's just 17 and anything could happen in the next few years: he could skyrocket in talent or he could plateau. I don't know if there is any star-level talent in the 20s-ish range.

 

[Raze Lupin2]

For all the times I have hated the Argentinian team it is kind of surreal to see one of the most underrated and interesting rivalries in basketball (not on here but in the general public) most likely come to an end.

Can someone with more knowledge tell me how Argentina is doing on the youth end? Are they going to be completely gone from the elite or are they just taking a break for a bit before a new generation comes in?

YES!!! All true Knicks fans hate Dolan. I read on a blog that Dolan should enroll in a Lakers management class over the summer. Maybe he should learn some things from Pat Riley while he's at it.

 

[Richey6662]

Well, maybe that's the part of US strength, that they got that competitive fire. Whereas Argentinians most of the time looked like they were doing slave labour at the court. And it wasn't like Anthony&Co were staring at Argentinian bench, they were just happy of being in the zone. If your idea of great basketball team, is not allowing celebrate their own skills and labeling it as arrogance, i feel sorry for you, man

Man, I just don't see how a team leading by so many points and being so superior needs to beat their chest like that. I just can't accept that, sorry. Play your game, win by 30+, stay humble, don't be arrogant.

Actually, this came to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_quarter

 

[greenarcher2]

If you consider the humiliation US suffered (partially their own fault) from 2002 to 2006 then all these show boating and padding of stats even when the opponent has already conceded is just a normal comeback. They have always considered themselves as the world's best and there's no reason not to go all out with this mentality.

Personally I believe 2012 will end the "road to redemption" for Team USA. I just hope they don't get complacent come 2014 and 2016 or we will see another 2002 in the making.

 

[Raze Lupin2]

Man, I just don't see how a team leading by so many points and being so superior needs to beat their chest like that. I just can't accept that, sorry. Play your game, win by 30+, stay humble, don't be arrogant.

Actually, this came to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_quarter

USA was not up by 30 when Melo hit the 3 that disgusted you. The lead was within 20 or so. I believe 18. That is enough for Argentian to overcome if the USA had stop scoring and give up as you say. I should point out that act of clemency, mercy has to be granted when the opposing team is no longer fighting. Argentina never quit trying to score or play defense. If the USA had withdrew at the point of the Carmelo 3 then they possibly would have lost. Argentians should not be taken lightly. I should point out that Melo is on the second team, a reserve player.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm use to this accusation of arrogance. I've watched enough International sports, read in forums and blogs to know that the Americans are almost always percived as arrogant. If the game is close or we lose some will say "USA didn't respect their opponents due to arrogance "If we show quality and win by 20+ every display of passion is criticised as showboating and displays of arrogance. I rarely find an in between perception. What's interesting is from Football's premier league to FIBA tournaments, Euroleague etc. various dislays of passion and revelry can be observed.

For example; When the Greeks beat the USA they celebrated like they won a gold medal. They literally danced on our graves. Lietuva, Argentina and Puert Rico had similar actions. None of it bothered me I was happy for them. It seems the Americans because of perception can not show the same emotions. Your perception is your own reality. It is what it is I guess. until USA consistently loses and other teams are stronger they will be percived as a bully that beats on small children. Victory has its price.

 

[bulldog33122]

My only wish is that Rose, Bosh, Aldridge, Howard, and Wade were healthy and we were able to field a true "A" squad.

 

[Federoy2]

USA was not up by 30 when Melo hit the 3 that disgusted you. The lead was within 20 or so. I believe 18. That is enough for Argentian to overcome if the USA had stop scoring and give up as you say. I should point out that act of clemency, mercy has to be granted when the opposing team is no longer fighting. Argentina never quit trying to score or play defense. If the USA had withdrew at the point of the Carmelo 3 then they possibly would have lost. Argentians should not be taken lightly. I should point out that Melo is on the second team, a reserve player.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm use to this accusation of arrogance. I've watched enough International sports, read in forums and blogs to know that the Americans are almost always percived as arrogant. If the game is close or we lose some will say "USA didn't respect their opponents due to arrogance "If we show quality and win by 20+ every display of passion is criticised as showboating and displays of arrogance. I rarely find an in between perception. What's interesting is from Football's premier league to FIBA tournaments, Euroleague etc. various dislays of passion and revelry can be observed.

For example; When the Greeks beat the USA they celebrated like they won a gold medal. They literally danced on our graves. Lietuva, Argentina and Puert Rico had similar actions. None of it bothered me I was happy for them. It seems the Americans because of perception can not show the same emotions. Your perception is your own reality. It is what it is I guess. until USA consistently loses and other teams are stronger they will be percived as a bully that beats on small children. Victory has its price.

We've had some disagreements over the past few weeks, but on this occasion, I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, arrogance is always a perception that American athletes (or our culture as a whole) must endure, so chest pounding and woofing isn't perceived as joyful exuberance but hubris (Usain Bolt does it and he's promoted as an international icon. Lucky for him he's not American!). When Team USA beats an opponent by 83 points it's perceived by some not as an extraordinary feat but as running up the score. When Kobe or LeBron are doing windmill dunks or 360s some don't see it as a display of awesome athleticism but as excessive showboating. I don't see anything wrong with the US players' actions. I don't view any aspect of their game as arrogant, pompous or in any way intentionally disrespectful to the opposition. Frankly, I've gotten to the point where I could care less about people's perceptions about the NT, both here or abroad. Hey, if people don't like them, it's whatever. The US has no shortage of supporters.

 

[NorCal2]

I'm talking about staying humble and not humiliating your opponent. I have this stance with any team. Carmelo shooting another three from way behind just to prove what, he can score? That Argentina is too low level and he can do whatever he wants? This is what I'm talking about. Also bragging and beating your chest when you're 20+. What for? No team should disrespect the other this way. They should be happy about winning and being superior by far, not trampling on the other team.
I'm sorry, but no team/player behaving like this can ever get my respect.

Hey Rik,

I don't have a problem with Carmelo taking that three when he's on fire, simply from a game standpoint of "anything can happen". I've seen some uber-amazing comebacks in my life and even when the USA was up by 28 and then Argentina went on an 8-0 or 10-0 run I thought "get Lebron back in there". In single elimination games you can't hold anything back and if a guy like Carmelo is on fire, heck, take the shot and strengthen the lead.

That seems to be a totally different and separate point from the whole disrespect thing. For instance, when Carmelo yelled "Get the fuck out" or whatever he yelled on that rebound, that should not be a part of the sport. It doesn't bother me that much since I grew up playing with some guys that believe that acts like that are simply 'part of the game'. I wish it wasn't a part of the game, personally, I've never liked the 'macho' side of basketball, talking trash and putting down your opponents. Some of it is playful but sometimes it gets taken over the line and becomes disrespectful, IMO.

The chest thumping may look ugly to foreigners (and I'm not a big fan of it either as it seems to scream "look at me!!!!" instead of celebrating the lead or the great pass that got you the shot with your teammates) but it is not as ugly of a thing to Americans, I think it is a cultural thing. Kind of like when Chris Paul got mad at Pau Gasol during the NBA season because Pau touched Chris' head after a play. In American culture it is not normal for a man to touch another man's head unless he is intending to disrespect him in some way.

 

[Jokinen2]

Can someone with more knowledge tell me how Argentina is doing on the youth end? Are they going to be completely gone from the elite or are they just taking a break for a bit before a new generation comes in?

I like to think that we are taking a break like you said. Threre is some young and interesting players comming like Gabriel Deck (top scorer of the 2012 U17WC), and Marcos Delia (6'10 PF) who played at the Nike Hoop Summit, Franco Giorgetti (6'9" SF) and Patricio Garino (6'7" G/F will play for George Washington U this year), this last three kids played in the argentinian U19 team that reached semifinals at the U19 World Championship last year. And there is some other born in 95, 96 and 97 with good potential but they are too young to tell.

I don´t think we have anyone as good as Manu comming, tho.

 

[Raze Lupin2]

Hey Rik,

I don't have a problem with Carmelo taking that three when he's on fire, simply from a game standpoint of "anything can happen". I've seen some uber-amazing comebacks in my life and even when the USA was up by 28 and then Argentina went on an 8-0 or 10-0 run I thought "get Lebron back in there". In single elimination games you can't hold anything back and if a guy like Carmelo is on fire, heck, take the shot and strengthen the lead.


That seems to be a totally different and separate point from the whole disrespect thing. For instance, when Carmelo yelled "Get the fuck out" or whatever he yelled on that rebound, that should not be a part of the sport.

1) I totally agree! Argentina was still in this game. They shouldn't be under estimated.

2)Melo yelling "Get the fuck out" and being a little macho is mild. Its even more mild when put in the context of the events that happened the last time USA played Argentina. Remember Melo was hit in the testicles. Male bravado is a part of all the most popular sports in the world Especially sports that involve contact. I think it interesting how people pick and choose what is offensive. Then they hold players accountable to some ridiculous and hypocritical standard. many My fellow Americans are just as hard on our players as foreigners.

3)I also agree with you that much is lost in translation. Ruk believed Melo hitting a three during a competitive game was offensive enough to turn away. Yet I wonder did he turn away when Melo was hit in the groin. I've watched international sports for years. Many of the celebratory acts players do could be seen as a displays of arrogance. The last two USA NT are mildly behaved by international standards. The Kiwis do a traditional dance that shows strength and is meant to intimidate. Players cross themselves, yell, chest bump, slide on the ground, remove clothing, taunt, do choreographed dances. Again USA players are held to a ridiculous, hypocritical standard.

Speaking of clemency or a mercy rule. Did you watch the Euro 2012?? The final game was Italy vs Spain. Spain beat then 4-0. Italy looked like the weaker side the entire match. Was it necessary for Spain to score that 4th and final gold? Those are rhetorical questions of course. The score doesn't matter. Let the men play it out like men. Like someone else said its whatever.

 

[Federoy2]

Hey Rik,

I don't have a problem with Carmelo taking that three when he's on fire, simply from a game standpoint of "anything can happen". I've seen some uber-amazing comebacks in my life and even when the USA was up by 28 and then Argentina went on an 8-0 or 10-0 run I thought "get Lebron back in there". In single elimination games you can't hold anything back and if a guy like Carmelo is on fire, heck, take the shot and strengthen the lead.

That seems to be a totally different and separate point from the whole disrespect thing. For instance, when Carmelo yelled "Get the fuck out" or whatever he yelled on that rebound, that should not be a part of the sport. It doesn't bother me that much since I grew up playing with some guys that believe that acts like that are simply 'part of the game'. I wish it wasn't a part of the game, personally, I've never liked the 'macho' side of basketball, talking trash and putting down your opponents. Some of it is playful but sometimes it gets taken over the line and becomes disrespectful, IMO.

The chest thumping may look ugly to foreigners (and I'm not a big fan of it either as it seems to scream "look at me!!!!" instead of celebrating the lead or the great pass that got you the shot with your teammates) but it is not as ugly of a thing to Americans, I think it is a cultural thing. Kind of like when Chris Paul got mad at Pau Gasol during the NBA season because Pau touched Chris' head after a play. In American culture it is not normal for a man to touch another man's head unless he is intending to disrespect him in some way.

Your point is well taken about the trash talking and woofing. Such behavior can quickly escalate out of control if your opponent takes it too personally. True story, when I was younger (a lot younger!), some friends, my brother and I got into a huge brawl with some guys at an indoor gym. We were playing 21 against a group strangers, and about five minutes into the game they started trash talking and playing physical. My brother took exception to some of the physical play, so he gets face-to-face with one of their guys and suddenly all hell broke loose. It took the gym's entire security team to separate all of us ridiculous, bawling teenagers! Certainly, there's a cautionary tale in that story about how trash talk can antagonize emotions that lead to verbal or physical confrontations.

But on the flip side, the NBA game, as with most leagues, is also about the "game within the game". Beating your opponent psychologically is as much a component to winning as the physical or strategic aspect. It's an age old tactic; get your opponent's emotions high to throw him/her off their game. So the woofing, chest-beating and histrionics becomes an extension of oneself just as performing a lay-up or backdoor cut is. Basketball is definitely not a gentlemen's game!