Quarterfinals: France - Spain

[Milos.Djuric2]

Regarding the Spanish Basketball Federation, they do have a deal in place with FIBA Africa which allows them to send Spanish coaches to Africa to teach and scout players. I am sure, there is a good reason for that, as no one is doing this kind of deal without getting anything out of it. Remember the African Championships 2013 in Madagascar? Most national-teams had either coaches from Spain or from France. With the possibility to scout on the players early on, they can avoid the FIBA ruling with players need to have a passport from the country they want to play for by the age of 16.
Same goes for Qatar BTW.

I don't think national team really factors a lot in this, I think this is more about money and professional teams. Especially as you can have only one naturalized player in the team. Of course the super-ultra-giga talent may get the chance to play for the NT, but the rest, it's all about the money.

The famous Qatar rule that f-ed up a lot of Filipinos. As that rule came into power recently it should had a transit period time of like one year to get clearance for some of the players that didn't know about the rule earlier, that had roots in certain countries and wanted to play for that country. But not for Qatar

 

[Milos.Djuric2]

2010 spain was defeated by lithuania.The true suprise of that tournament we lost only to usa and won bronze medal with record 8-1 in that tournament.

Serbia was morally dead after the Turkey game. There was almost no chance they could have won that game.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

I am not making it like it takes a basketball superpower to beat Spain. As a matter of fact both Serbia and France are very capable of beating Spain. They did not play that hard in the group stages because it did not mean much. On the contrary, Spain started very fast to the tournement, had some "misleading" results against France and Serbia then everybody started to favor Spain as a candidate to become champions, even more than USA. In fact, despite being a good team, Spain does not have much over other top Euro teams like France and Serbia.
And one more time, yes Spain had a very good generation but we are coming to the end of it. All I am saying is that Spain is not the first Europen team anymore and it is no surprise that France eliminated Spain when it mattered most.

Spain was playing at home and was the main favourite of the group well before the start. We simply didn't have the luxury of holding it back and starting slowly, as the pressure from the home crowd and media would have not allowed it.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

2010 spain was defeated by lithuania.The true suprise of that tournament we lost only to usa and won bronze medal with record 8-1 in that tournament.

Lithuania 2010 was a better team than Spain 2010. They played much better throughout the tournament and beat us fair and square.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

If you can't admit that your team employs dirty plays (even though it has almost goodlike roster) that's your problem. But please don't say Spain doesn't do dirty plays when it's not true.

Wrong. After watching the replay I admitted Pau Gasol started it by shoving Pietrus to the floor. And that's a dirty play. But your interpretation of what happened after that is completely wrong. I'm not the one being blinded here.

 

[Milos.Djuric2]

Wrong. After watching the replay I admitted Pau Gasol started it by shoving Pietrus to the floor. And that's a dirty play. But your interpretation of what happened after that is completely wrong. I'm not the one being blinded here.

Actually you are kinda right I admit. The first one is a schoolbook example of a dirty play, the second one is more bad mannerism then dirty play. That doesn't change the fact that it was a provocation, but it barely qualifies as dirty play because of the technical.
Spain plays dirty. Period.

 

[Raze Lupin2]

It's certainly a feat to pack so much ignorance in just two lines.

Check your facts, man. Ibaka offered himself to Spain NT a few years ago. He wanted to play international competition and couldn't do it with this country. As he spent his formative years in Spain, speaks the language, and had connections with some of the federation's technical staff, it's only natural he chose Spain to get his wish. Other than playing in international events, he got no other benefit, as spanish citizenship is useless for a guy who's living and playing in the States.

Now compare all that with some russian players like J.R. Holden. I wonder why that nifty karma thing didn't work back in 2007 when Spain didn't have a foreigner in the team...

By the way, I called the original Dream Team and convinced them to give their gold medals back. After all, they had a naturalised player, too: jamaican Pat Ewing. As did other of the Dream Teams, with nigerian Hakeem Olajuwon.

Anyway, I am against allowing naturalised players to take part in FIBA competitions. This includes debatable cases like Ibaka, and clear mercenary hirings like those from ex-yugo and ex-soviet countries. It's not about racial purity, which as a spaniard I could care less about. It's because a NT needs to represent a country, and the players in it must share the language, the culture and the motivation. Otherwise, we're getting in win-at-all-costs territory, and sports shouldn't be like that.

Ewing grew up here since he was 12 and became a naturalized citizen while in college. The USA has a strong Jamaican population. I would not be surprised if there are more Jamaicans in the USA and Canada than their are in Jamaica. If no more than a substantial amount live here. Olajuwan was naturalized. I don't see the big deal about it but I'm American so we don't care as much about such things. Our Soccer team have players that grew up outside of USA and English seems to be their second language. Americans view things differently than hardcore European types. IMHO I believe you guys are arguing over nothing at all. Especially about Ibaka. You guys act like the guy and Spain are criminals.

 

[Mojado2]

I don't think national team really factors a lot in this, I think this is more about money and professional teams. Especially as you can have only one naturalized player in the team. Of course the super-ultra-giga talent may get the chance to play for the NT, but the rest, it's all about the money.

The famous Qatar rule that f-ed up a lot of Filipinos. As that rule came into power recently it should had a transit period time of like one year to get clearance for some of the players that didn't know about the rule earlier, that had roots in certain countries and wanted to play for that country. But not for Qatar

No, it's actually perfect for the national team as coaches & scouts from Spain, France and Qatar can already scout players at a very young age and bring them to their country before the age of 16 to avoid the naturalization process. These players do not count against the FIBA-rules with one naturalized player per team.

 

[Raze Lupin2]

Rep. Of Congo is actually playing internationally and played in 2010 and 2013 at the African Championships, so the only reason Ibaka is playing for Spain should be just the fact that Congo has not a top national team-program in Africa and maybe the possibility that his family can live there, which isnt too bad of a deal,IMHO. If your country sucks in basketball...I dont know if that's the right way to do it morally.

Regarding the Spanish Basketball Federation, they do have a deal in place with FIBA Africa which allows them to send Spanish coaches to Africa to teach and scout players. I am sure, there is a good reason for that, as no one is doing this kind of deal without getting anything out of it. Remember the African Championships 2013 in Madagascar? Most national-teams had either coaches from Spain or from France. With the possibility to scout on the players early on, they can avoid the FIBA ruling with players need to have a passport from the country they want to play for by the age of 16.
Same goes for Qatar BTW.

So you have never heard of basketball without boarders, NBA cares or all the college programs in the US that send coaches all over the world to promote basketball? There are plenty programs like that in the world. Some of these programs do collegiate and professional scouting.

Why are you guys so salty about it? All this Spain hate is senseless. They lost cause France had a great day and Spain a not so great day. I actually believe Spain buckled under the pressure to win at home. In any case I don't see this is a naturalization issue.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

Actually you are kinda right I admit. The first one is a schoolbook example of a dirty play, the second one is more bad mannerism then dirty play. That doesn't change the fact that it was a provocation, but it barely qualifies as dirty play because of the technical.
Spain plays dirty. Period.

Amazing. So you were dead set on Llull's being a dirty play, with him pushing and flopping and all. But now you've got the example of dirty play you needed, you're quick to drop it as you don't need to defend your (quite biased) interpretation anymore. Coherence.

Now this is what I would call double standard. I'm quite sure that, were three spanish players to gang on a french guard hitting him in the back of the neck and throwing him to the floor, there would be a storm of angry posters asking for suspensions and whatnot. Even better if Spain had won the game afterwards.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

No, it's actually perfect for the national team as coaches & scouts from Spain, France and Qatar can already scout players at a very young age and bring them to their country before the age of 16 to avoid the naturalization process. These players do not count against the FIBA-rules with one naturalized player per team.

So, one would expect to find the younger spanish national teams filled with african-born players, don't you think?

 

[AirBall2]

One picture says more then one thousand words

 

[Milos.Djuric2]

No, it's actually perfect for the national team as coaches & scouts from Spain, France and Qatar can already scout players at a very young age and bring them to their country before the age of 16 to avoid the naturalization process. These players do not count against the FIBA-rules with one naturalized player per team.

I apologize, you are correct I totally overlooked the fact that if they scout youngsters they can naturalize them left and right and avoid the "1 naturalized player rule". I read that part and forgot it in a second, I'm bad at multitasking, sorry it totally makes sense now.

 

[Milos.Djuric2]

Amazing. So you were dead set on Llull's being a dirty play, with him pushing and flopping and all. But now you've got the example of dirty play you needed, you're quick to drop it as you don't need to defend your (quite biased) interpretation anymore. Coherence.

Now this is what I would call double standard. I'm quite sure that, were three spanish players to gang on a french guard hitting him in the back of the neck and throwing him to the floor, there would be a storm of angry posters asking for suspensions and whatnot. Even better if Spain had won the game afterwards.

I still call it a dirty play, don't get me wrong. In my opinion that's a dirty play. But compared to the other one, the other on is much higher in intensity. I just gave you couple of examples of the bat I didn't go for the hard ones. You want more? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avLV2J9XNT0

 

[Mojado2]

So you have never heard of basketball without boarders, NBA cares or all the college programs in the US that send coaches all over the world to promote basketball? There are plenty programs like that in the world. Some of these programs do collegiate and professional scouting.

Why are you guys so salty about it? All this Spain hate is senseless. They lost cause France had a great day and Spain a not so great day. I actually believe Spain buckled under the pressure to win at home. In any case I don't see this is a naturalization issue.

The major difference between BWB and Big Men Camps and the ones from national federations is the usage of players for national-teams.
BWB camps has been a good source for colleges in the US for years but the players do still play for their original countries.

BTW, I am not hating on Spain at all. They are clever in looking for talent south of the border. It's a very intelligent move and helps alot of talented kids from Africa to earn money for a living.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

One picture says more then one thousand words

Sasha was the one who taught Navarro and Gasol how to play dirty?

 

[Mojado2]

So, one would expect to find the younger spanish national teams filled with african-born players, don't you think?

This might gonna happen in the future. The agreement started in 2010 I think.

 

[Raze Lupin2]

How silly is it that France held Spain to 52 points an we're talking bout naturalization? Not tactics, not strategy not basketball psychology but naturalization. Spain only scored 52 points! FIFFTY TWO points guys and we here talking about immigration, naturalization *Allen Iverson voice*

Video below for reference.

 

[CHBB2]

Personal matters kept me away from FIBA for the whole knockout rounds. I look on the FIBA site to catch up on the games and I'm just amazed. Not only at France over Spain but Turkey over Australia, Serbia dominating Greece, Brazil dominating Argentina, Serbia then dominating Brazil... even France over Croatia kind of surprised me.

Who was it that said France couldn't possibly beat Spain? Oh right, pretty much everybody but me. Never doubt a team's potential just because it hasn't shown up yet.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

I did not mean the whole history of France-Spain clashes, what I said was very obvious. In the recent years it is clear that France is better than Spain. France eliminated Spain in 2013 and became European champions.This year France B team eliminated Spain A team in Madrid. Before that yes, Spain was more dominant. But the trend is France is on the rise and Spain is on the decline. Hence today France > Spain. I expect Spain to be weaker in 2015 Eurobasket.

This.