Quarterfinals: France - Spain

[Dr. Martin2]

I visited Spain several times, mostly Madrid and Barca and I saw that motorize police units are hunting black emigrants... Next time I hope that they will have documents which will provide that they are swingmens of Manresa, point guards of Joventut and centers of Bruesa...

And the police in Belgrade will give them hot meal and coffee hahhaha

 

[Levenspiel2]

Even jokingly, I don't believe in this karma stuff, but it is interesting that Greece was also burnt couple of times because of alleged scheming... maybe it's a mental thing.

 

[Dauf2]

It's certainly a feat to pack so much ignorance in just two lines.

Check your facts, man. Ibaka offered himself to Spain NT a few years ago. He wanted to play international competition and couldn't do it with this country. As he spent his formative years in Spain, speaks the language, and had connections with some of the federation's technical staff, it's only natural he chose Spain to get his wish. Other than playing in international events, he got no other benefit, as spanish citizenship is useless for a guy who's living and playing in the States.

Now compare all that with some russian players like J.R. Holden. I wonder why that nifty karma thing didn't work back in 2007 when Spain didn't have a foreigner in the team...

By the way, I called the original Dream Team and convinced them to give their gold medals back. After all, they had a naturalised player, too: jamaican Pat Ewing. As did other of the Dream Teams, with nigerian Hakeem Olajuwon.

Anyway, I am against allowing naturalised players to take part in FIBA competitions. This includes debatable cases like Ibaka, and clear mercenary hirings like those from ex-yugo and ex-soviet countries. It's not about racial purity, which as a spaniard I could care less about. It's because a NT needs to represent a country, and the players in it must share the language, the culture and the motivation. Otherwise, we're getting in win-at-all-costs territory, and sports shouldn't be like that.

Check your facts.
He was 18 when he first came to Spain. As young he was in France. That's still one of the most silly naturalisation of sport history. You can't just tell that a player is from your country because he played 2 years in your national championship and made some friends.

 

[Pero2]

And I'm not even talking about a slimey plan to have two separate tournaments in order to make a final Spain-USA inevitable. Karma's a bitch, hidalgos!

Yeap.

Basically predetermined and non-crossing groups, wild cards and all this silly and unfair staff, which lead to teams losing on purpose, kill real competition and destroy tournaments need to stop.

 

[Shawshank2]

France lost games on purpose, too. How does it works, then? Two bad karmas cancel themselves out? Do they merge and affect only the most recent culprit? Can't we just make sacrifices to those sport gods to clean up our rap sheet?

Sport gods was so tired of spanish acting,flooping crying in last decade that decided i will give them a lesson in 2014 to both football and basketball ! )

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

I visited Spain several times, mostly Madrid and Barca and I saw that motorize police units are hunting black emigrants... Next time I hope that they will have documents which will provide that they are swingmens of Manresa, point guards of Joventut and centers of Bruesa...

Hey, don't accuse us of being racists! Our motorised units hunt down all races equally. Illegal emigrants are corralled up and gathered in the village bullring (plaza de toros). Then used as target practice for the bulls. Those who survive are then sold as slaves and shipped to America to work the cotton fields.

Joking aside, funny how living all my life in Spain I didn't notice those motorised units you so easily spotted. What we've got here is a problem with counterfeit luxury items being sold on the street (often by illegal african immigrants working for organised criminal groups), usually in touristic spots, sometimes in front of the stores selling the original items (sunglasses, bags, watches...) at half the listed price. Local police often chase the street sellers away, but they cannot do much to prevent them coming back. It's rare even to send them to jail for a limited time, and very difficult to get them out the country.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

Yeap.

Basically predetermined and non-crossing groups, wild cards and all this silly and unfair staff, which lead to teams losing on purpose, kill real competition and destroy tournaments need to stop.

Teams were losing on purpose before this year's change in the schedule. Those predetermined groups were drawn after seeding each one of them with the top 4 ranked teams. Which is quite logical to me. I fail to understand how it's unfair to the other teams that the top two are placed on separate sides of the brackets. Also, wild cards are in place since several years back and did squat to favour Spain. Greece on the other hand, applied for and got one, didn't they?

What would be a fair schedule, then?

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

Check your facts.
He was 18 when he first came to Spain. As young he was in France. That's still one of the most silly naturalisation of sport history. You can't just tell that a player is from your country because he played 2 years in your national championship and made some friends.

As young? He moved to France when he was 17, and soon moved again to Spain. Played two years here in L'Hospitalet and Manresa. Can't you just accept he wanted to play for Spain? How else do you explain his decision? What do we have to offer to him? Money? Exposure? He's an NBA player making millions, for love's sake!

 

[Mr Chacho2]

As young? He moved to France when he was 17, and soon moved again to Spain. Played two years here in L'Hospitalet and Manresa. Can't you just accept he wanted to play for Spain? How else do you explain his decision? What do we have to offer to him? Money? Exposure? He's an NBA player making millions, for love's sake!

Ibaka's brother still playing in Spain, he plays in l'Hospitalet with Llull's brother.

 

[surfer2]

Oh, come on! Spain played like crap yesterday, and France executed their game plan good enough. That doesn't make them the better team. Not to take anything from them, but if you like statistics, Spain has beaten France so many times in the past, it's not even funny. If you take point differential, it's even funnier, as french wins usually come after slugfests decided by a couple baskets, while Spain has blown out France in many of their victories.

Fortunately, the better team does not always win. You've got to actually play the games, and every time you step on the court there's a chance of losing. At this level, the B game of anyone but Team USA is not enough to beat the A game of any opponent you can face.

I did not mean the whole history of France-Spain clashes, what I said was very obvious. In the recent years it is clear that France is better than Spain. France eliminated Spain in 2013 and became European champions.This year France B team eliminated Spain A team in Madrid. Before that yes, Spain was more dominant. But the trend is France is on the rise and Spain is on the decline. Hence today France > Spain. I expect Spain to be weaker in 2015 Eurobasket.

 

[INTEGRAL2]

Guys did Rudy cry?

 

[Pero2]

Teams were losing on purpose before this year's change in the schedule. Those predetermined groups were drawn after seeding each one of them with the top 4 ranked teams. Which is quite logical to me. I fail to understand how it's unfair to the other teams that the top two are placed on separate sides of the brackets. Also, wild cards are in place since several years back and did squat to favour Spain. Greece on the other hand, applied for and got one, didn't they?

What would be a fair schedule, then?

No wild cards, qualification tournaments, no pre-fixed schedules, groups that cross or even drawings after group stage, and generally avoiding practices aiming to manipulate the result in any way other than what happens in the court, seem more fair to me. And I didn't say that wild cards were invented now, I just dislike this practice even if it is in favor of my own country.

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

I did not mean the whole history of France-Spain clashes, what I said was very obvious. In the recent years it is clear that France is better than Spain. France eliminated Spain in 2013 and became European champions.This year France B team eliminated Spain A team in Madrid. Before that yes, Spain was more dominant. But the trend is France is on the rise and Spain is on the decline. Hence today France > Spain. I expect Spain to be weaker in 2015 Eurobasket.

I don't agree at all with your analysis. Past year Spain B forced overtime against France A. It was really a coin toss. This year Spain A blew out France B in group play, then managed to throw away the game that counted.

But you're making it like it takes a basketball superpower to beat Spain, when that's clearly not the case. Since 2007, the game plan to face Spain with a chance of winning is clear: slow down the game, use fouls and physical play to stop them from getting any rhythm, take and make a lot of threes. Look at the list of of teams which managed to pull that tactic and you'll see many of them didn't advance much after beating Spain: i.e. they weren't that good to start with.

2007 Croatia -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals. Russia in the final game.
2009 Serbia -> made it to the finals, was blown out by Spain. Turkey -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals
2010 France -> didn't make it even to the quarter-finals.
2011 Turkey -> didn't reach quarter-finals either
2012 UK -> one-point scare. Didn't make it out of group play. Russia -> fell to Spain in semifinals
2013 Slovenia -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals. Italy -> the same. Greece -> didn't make it out of group play

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

No wild cards, qualification tournaments, no pre-fixed schedules, groups that cross or even drawings after group stage, and generally avoiding practices aiming to manipulate the result in any way other than what happens in the court, seem more fair to me. And I didn't say that wild cards were invented now, I just dislike this practice even if it is in favor of my own country.

Yeah, that would completely eliminate losing on purpose, as you don't know your possible rivals until group play ends. But it's impossible to implement, as tournament hosts (and the fans) want to know in advance where the teams will play. It makes zero sense from a business standpoint, and as such it will never be done, unless all games are played in a single city (you could do that in the Olympics, most likely).

 

[Darrell Armstrong2]

Guys did Rudy cry?

Yes, but Helen Lindes was there to make him feel good again.

 

[surfer2]

I don't agree at all with your analysis. Past year Spain B forced overtime against France A. It was really a coin toss. This year Spain A blew out France B in group play, then managed to throw away the game that counted.

But you're making it like it takes a basketball superpower to beat Spain, when that's clearly not the case. Since 2007, the game plan to face Spain with a chance of winning is clear: slow down the game, use fouls and physical play to stop them from getting any rhythm, take and make a lot of threes. Look at the list of of teams which managed to pull that tactic and you'll see many of them didn't advance much after beating Spain: i.e. they weren't that good to start with.

2007 Croatia -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals. Russia in the final game.
2009 Serbia -> made it to the finals, was blown out by Spain. Turkey -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals
2010 France -> didn't make it even to the quarter-finals.
2011 Turkey -> didn't reach quarter-finals either
2012 UK -> one-point scare. Didn't make it out of group play. Russia -> fell to Spain in semifinals
2013 Slovenia -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals. Italy -> the same. Greece -> didn't make it out of group play

I am not making it like it takes a basketball superpower to beat Spain. As a matter of fact both Serbia and France are very capable of beating Spain. They did not play that hard in the group stages because it did not mean much. On the contrary, Spain started very fast to the tournement, had some "misleading" results against France and Serbia then everybody started to favor Spain as a candidate to become champions, even more than USA. In fact, despite being a good team, Spain does not have much over other top Euro teams like France and Serbia.
And one more time, yes Spain had a very good generation but we are coming to the end of it. All I am saying is that Spain is not the first Europen team anymore and it is no surprise that France eliminated Spain when it mattered most.

 

[Milos.Djuric2]

This is just getting more and more ridiculous. In the picture you provide, Llull is leaning against Pietrus. That's not shoving, and even if he used his weight to move him a bit out the way, I can hardly consider it a threat.

Even then, let's assume defenseless Pietrus was in fear he'd be harmed by the hulking Llull.

I didn't just provide the picture I also told you where to look as pictures alone are not enough. The pictures are in aerial view because you wrongly stated, "Pietrus and Gelabale shove Llull from behind". As you can see on the aerial view, Gelabale and Pietrus couldn't push Llull from behind, only from the side, big difference. And if you look a little better they didn't push him at all, he was already going down.

The bold part, you're taking it out of context, I'm not sure if you're trolling or just not reading. I was explaining how you act in general in this circumstances. He acted the opposite of how you should act. I wasn't implying that Pietrus was threatened I was implying he was provoked, let me quote myself "Also, you don't separate players by coming in and pushing them, especially not pushing the one who is not your teammate, that is pure provocation."
The sentence that follows is how you normally act in that situation and why.

Three frenchmen go at him from behind and send him to the floor.

He was pushed only by Pietrus, the two other were not fast enough as he already started going down.

I guess he simply was flopping three times harder. How come is that fair retaliation? If three spanish players did the same, I cannot even imagine the reactions on this board. Suspension? Death penalty?

Do you remember how we got into all this? Let me remind you - you wanted an example of a dirty play. And I gave you one (or two).
Was this dirty play? It was. You don't push players that are arguing with other ones. You just don't. You can try to restrain them, but you don't push. Especially not big guys that are arguing. Especially not the one who is not from your team. If you do that you want to start a fight. That's a rule in any sport.
And this last part is just running away from the subject. This argument in the end has nothing to do with the original topic.
If you can't admit that your team employs dirty plays (even though it has almost goodlike roster) that's your problem. But please don't say Spain doesn't do dirty plays when it's not true.

 

[Mojado2]

It's certainly a feat to pack so much ignorance in just two lines.

Check your facts, man. Ibaka offered himself to Spain NT a few years ago. He wanted to play international competition and couldn't do it with this country. As he spent his formative years in Spain, speaks the language, and had connections with some of the federation's technical staff, it's only natural he chose Spain to get his wish. Other than playing in international events, he got no other benefit, as spanish citizenship is useless for a guy who's living and playing in the States.

.

Rep. Of Congo is actually playing internationally and played in 2010 and 2013 at the African Championships, so the only reason Ibaka is playing for Spain should be just the fact that Congo has not a top national team-program in Africa and maybe the possibility that his family can live there, which isnt too bad of a deal,IMHO. If your country sucks in basketball...I dont know if that's the right way to do it morally.

Regarding the Spanish Basketball Federation, they do have a deal in place with FIBA Africa which allows them to send Spanish coaches to Africa to teach and scout players. I am sure, there is a good reason for that, as no one is doing this kind of deal without getting anything out of it. Remember the African Championships 2013 in Madagascar? Most national-teams had either coaches from Spain or from France. With the possibility to scout on the players early on, they can avoid the FIBA ruling with players need to have a passport from the country they want to play for by the age of 16.
Same goes for Qatar BTW.

 

[Milos.Djuric2]

Check your facts.
He was 18 when he first came to Spain. As young he was in France. That's still one of the most silly naturalisation of sport history. You can't just tell that a player is from your country because he played 2 years in your national championship and made some friends.

Rep. Of Congo is actually playing internationally and played in 2010 and 2013 at the African Championships, so the only reason Ibaka is playing for Spain should be just the fact that Congo has not a top national team-program in Africa and maybe the possibility that his family can live there, which isnt too bad of a deal,IMHO. If your country sucks in basketball...I dont know if that's the right way to do it morally.

He was 17 and played for 3 years. Just to get the right facts. And he was naturalized 2 years after he left Spain. There's a certain 3 year rule in the Olympics (especially in the Asian Olympics, because of this Blatche can't play Asian games), he would be eligible for competitions (that's from eligibility side). And it's not one of the most silly naturalizations, actually it's one of the most logical ones. Ibaka's mother was murdered in Congo and his father was imprisoned and he ran away from his country. Why the f would he play for Congo? Second, thanks to playing basketball in Spain he now lives and works in the NBA and can help his family (he has 17 siblings). Thanks to playing basketball in Spain now he has a normal life. I find this to be an OK thing.
And Darrell Armstrong said that he doesn't support imported players, not because of race, but because national teams should be made of people that have the same motivation, share language and culture, etc.

Edit: I've added Mojado's post here also

 

[Shawshank2]

I don't agree at all with your analysis. Past year Spain B forced overtime against France A. It was really a coin toss. This year Spain A blew out France B in group play, then managed to throw away the game that counted.

But you're making it like it takes a basketball superpower to beat Spain, when that's clearly not the case. Since 2007, the game plan to face Spain with a chance of winning is clear: slow down the game, use fouls and physical play to stop them from getting any rhythm, take and make a lot of threes. Look at the list of of teams which managed to pull that tactic and you'll see many of them didn't advance much after beating Spain: i.e. they weren't that good to start with.

2007 Croatia -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals. Russia in the final game.
2009 Serbia -> made it to the finals, was blown out by Spain. Turkey -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals
2010 France -> didn't make it even to the quarter-finals.
2011 Turkey -> didn't reach quarter-finals either
2012 UK -> one-point scare. Didn't make it out of group play. Russia -> fell to Spain in semifinals
2013 Slovenia -> didn't make it past the quarter-finals. Italy -> the same. Greece -> didn't make it out of group play

2010 spain was defeated by lithuania.The true suprise of that tournament we lost only to usa and won bronze medal with record 8-1 in that tournament.