Player naturalisations

[Svoura2]

The bottom line is, there are rules and they should be followed by everyone. Unless rules are changed, you can not blame anyone for any legit move.

 

[Dirtyh2]

My thoughts about Koufos/Sabonis-cases.

IIHF's 2 year rule is pretty ok. My opinion is that if players takes part for youth competition or lives 2 (3 would be better) in the country it's more than fair that he/she could play for NT.

My thoughts about McCaleb-cases.

It's okay that players who get their passports before they are under 18/20 year old is fine if they have lived in the country that same 3 years can play for NT (Ibaka-case). Players that got passport after their 18./20. birthday should never get a change to play for NT.

World is becoming a lot of smaller place than it was. That's why we need to have better rules that we have right now.

 

[boz742]

boz74, you knew very well what I meant.

The disagreement stands. You argue that ethnic ties should not be a justification to represent a country, while I and a few other members think otherwise; it should/could be, at least for the 1st generation. Vezenkov's desire to play for Bulgaria should be respected because he's Bulgarian through his parents. McCalebb doesn't satisfy the first criteria, so it doesn't matter if he really wants to represent FYRoM or not.

At the end of the day though, either you're eligible or you're not, really wanting to be eligible does not make it so. Vezenkov is eligible for Bulgaria because he is a Bulgarian citizen, not because he "really wants" it. Similarily McCalebb is a Macedonian citizen just like Vezenkov is a Bulgarian citizen, which makes him eligible disirregardless of what he "really wants". In both cases, what the players really want makes no difference.

If you are going to change the rules so that they prevent a Macedonian citizen from joining the NT unless he has played there for two seasons, then of course they should also prevent Bulgarian citizens from joining the NT if they didn't play in Bulgaria for two years. What kind of patriot is that who refuses to play in his country for a mere two seasons? For someone who compares national sports teams to war, your standards when it comes to patriotism are surprisingly low.

 

[BiHBasket2]

Emir Preldžić is born and raised in Bosnia, when he was 16 years old he moved in Slovenia and played for their youth national teams, later he moved in Turkey and played for their national team.

Is this even legal, Fiba have different rules when it's about Turkey

 

[Victorious2]

I think this two year rule is silly. It would mean that every player which has a two year contract for a club would be eligible to play for that country. So McCalebb could play for Italy because he played for Siena for a few seasons. That makes no sense at all. Moreover, it is easy for countries with a strong basketball league to attract good players like McCalebb who would never sign for a scrappy clubteam in FYRoM. So small basketball countries will have a disadvantage not only in national leagues, but also in signing naturalized players.
Koufos could perhaps play for a Greek team like Pao, as Calathes did, but would Vezenkov do the same for a Bulgarian team? Is throwing one year away a good way for showing ones patriotism?

Dirtyh also mentioned that it is proper to naturalize players at an early age. Like Ibaka's case. I would object to that, because young talents are snatched from small basketball nations, after which these countries fail to produce good players and popularize the game.

You are either born and raised in that country or you have roots from that country. Then you should be eligible to play for the national team. It is the only way that makes sense.

 

[Levenspiel2]

At the end of the day though, either you're eligible or you're not, really wanting to be eligible does not make it so. Vezenkov is eligible for Bulgaria because he is a Bulgarian citizen, not because he "really wants" it. Similarily McCalebb is a Macedonian citizen just like Vezenkov is a Bulgarian citizen, which makes him eligible disirregardless of what he "really wants". In both cases, what the players really want makes no difference.

True. Eligibility has nothing to do with "wanting". And I did not say otherwise. Just like it happened to Svoura, Gavel's situation reminded also me of Vezenkov's case, had he wanted to play for Greece. But he seemed like he doesn't, and I just added a comment about respecting his decision to play for Bulgaria (rather than Greece). I did not say that's why he should be allowed.

If you are going to change the rules so that they prevent a Macedonian citizen from joining the NT unless he has played there for two seasons, then of course they should also prevent Bulgarian citizens from joining the NT if they didn't play in Bulgaria for two years. What kind of patriot is that who refuses to play in his country for a mere two seasons? For someone who compares national sports teams to war, your standards when it comes to patriotism are surprisingly low.

Again, I did not say what you are implying here. I actually agree in an earlier post that having to play 2-years at home can be one measure.

 

[boz742]

I think this two year rule is silly. It would mean that every player which has a two year contract for a club would be eligible to play for that country. So McCalebb could play for Italy because he played for Siena for a few seasons. That makes no sense at all.

Well he could play for Macedonia despite having no contract at all, surely requiring him to play in the country for two seasons is an improvement, right?

Also, I'm not sure why you assume he would have been given an Italian citizenship. It does appear the bigger the country the less likely they are to give dubious citizenships.

Moreover, it is easy for countries with a strong basketball league to attract good players like McCalebb who would never sign for a scrappy clubteam in FYRoM. So small basketball countries will have a disadvantage not only in national leagues, but also in signing naturalized players. Koufos could perhaps play for a Greek team like Pao, as Calathes did, but would Vezenkov do the same for a Bulgarian team? Is throwing one year away a good way for showing ones patriotism?

Vezenkov could definitely play in Bulgaria, and making it mandatory for him to do so would be an added incentive for players to play in such leagues, which is a good thing in and of itself.

Besides, Koufos is only a marginal improvement over other Greece players, while McCalebb is accused of singlehandedly carrying to the Euro semifinals a team which supposedly had otherwise no business being there. So there's nothing particularly "unfair" about allowing Koufos to play for Greece (provided he plays there for two seasons) all the while preventing McCalebb from playing for Macedonia: if anything it's a more accurate reflection of the respective countries' basketball systems.

You are either born and raised in that country or you have roots from that country. Then you should be eligible to play for the national team.

Even leaving aside the debate over ethnicity, why the birth requirement? What purpose does it serve? Is Tony Parker any less of a Frenchman because he was born in Belgium rather than France?

 

[boz742]

I actually agree in an earlier post that having to play 2-years at home can be one measure.

But you also said that "You argue that ethnic ties should not be a justification to represent a country, while I and a few other members think otherwise".

Does that mean you think that FIBA rules should be altered so that Vezenkov isn't allowed to play for Bulgaria (until he actually plays there)?

If so, it seems to me you do agree that ethnic ties shouldn't be enough to be allowed in a country's national team.

I'm sorry I find it difficult to understand what your contention really is.

 

[Storžievis2]

Why two years? Sabonis does not play in Lithuania because teams are too weak for talent he has and pressure to play good is too big. He need to develop with good players in strong league like ACB, not in LKL and develop with no too much attention.

His father was smart, he thoght about future of Lithuania basketball and made his son train with good players from early age. Not having Sabonis on national team will undermine his fathers effort to make Lithuania basketball stronger.

Anyway he has Lithuanian citizenship, speaks Lithuanian, parents Lithuanian, played for Lithuania in youth turnaments since 16 years old, so no problem. In any case it would not be a crime at all, that he plays for Lithuania team. More reason for him to play than not play.

IIHF rules are anything but efficient if Sabonis case does not give elegiblity. I am almost certain he would not play to Spain or USA and be unhappy to not play for Lithuania.

 

[boz742]

Why two years?

Make it 4 years if you wish.

Sabonis does not play in Lithuania because teams are too weak for talent he has and pressure to play good is too big. He need to develop with good players in strong league like ACB, not in LKL and develop with no too much attention.

His father was smart, he thoght about future of Lithuania basketball and made his son train with good players from early age. Not having Sabonis on national team will undermine his fathers effort to make Lithuania basketball stronger.

Anyway he has Lithuanian citizenship, speaks Lithuanian, parents Lithuanian, played for Lithuania in youth turnaments since 16 years old, so no problem. In any case it would not be a crime at all, that he plays for Lithuania team. More reason for him to play than not play.

IIHF rules are anything but efficient if Sabonis case does not give elegiblity. I am almost certain he would not play to Spain or USA and be unhappy to not play for Lithuania.

As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

You basically argue that the only reason he becomes a good player is that he never had to play in Lithuania. Well if that is true, then that is exactly why he shouln't be playing for Lithuania: there is no reason why Lithuania should be allowed to take advantage of the quality of Spain's youth system.

We see that a lot in the football, where some African teams are full of French players and unfairly take advantage of France's youth system. That's not what national teams are supposed to be about.

 

[Big Lebowski2]

What the hell Parker has to do with it? His father was who - American, mother Dutch, he was born in Belgium and raised in France... what did you expect him to choose?

Parker might play one quarter with USA, one quarter with the Netherlands, one quarter with Belgium and one quarter with France. It may be a bit complicated but with some adjustments in scheduling tournaments it can happen. He also might play with both France and Belgium, for example, if they meet. Only offensive possessions, so he could not even be pissed off by defense.

 

[Storžievis2]

Make it 4 years if you wish.


As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

You basically argue that the only reason he becomes a good player is that he never had to play in Lithuania. Well if that is true, then that is exactly why he shouln't be playing for Lithuania: there is no reason why Lithuania should be allowed to take advantage of the quality of Spain's youth system.

We see that a lot in the football, where some African teams are full of French players and unfairly take advantage of France's youth system. That's not what national teams are supposed to be about.

Let me point you to Kleiza and Kaukėnas cases who took advantage of USA youth system but played for Lithuania. Kleiza moved to USA at 16 years old, never lived in Lithuania, never played in Lithuania just was born in there.

Kaukėnas moved 15 years old, played in Lithuania only after debut in 2001 Eurobasket. Are those players not elegible because they did not grow up at Lithuania and did not play in Lithuania system and according to you not Lithuanian players?

Besides, Sabonis took advantage of Spanish and Lithuania youth system, and he chooses Lithuania because of identity. I do not see what problem you have with that. I can see that he takes advantage of Lithuania system and leave to play for Spain. Same problem, is it not?

 

[ThePeraCar2]

Emir Preldžić is born and raised in Bosnia, when he was 16 years old he moved in Slovenia and played for their youth national teams, later he moved in Turkey and played for their national team.

Is this even legal, Fiba have different rules when it's about Turkey

i wouldnt care honestly ,he sux xD

 

[Dirtyh2]

As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

I don't know about you but players that I know personally have taken dramatically step forward after participating youth NT camps. And do you really think that his father has nothing to do with his game? I think lot of Lithuanian on him as a player. And I guess there's reasons why he plays for Lithuania and not for Spain.

 

[Shawshank2]

Make it 4 years if you wish.


As I said, there is nothing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player.

You basically argue that the only reason he becomes a good player is that he never had to play in Lithuania. Well if that is true, then that is exactly why he shouln't be playing for Lithuania: there is no reason why Lithuania should be allowed to take advantage of the quality of Spain's youth system.

We see that a lot in the football, where some African teams are full of French players and unfairly take advantage of France's youth system. That's not what national teams are supposed to be about.

Listen you are going to far with sabonis kid as naturalized.First of all Arvydas Sabonis was the biggest impact to what Domantas Sabonis is today.Domantas has nothing in him what is lithuanian are seriuos ? So Sabonis is too not lithuanian player? he become player who he is playing outside Lithuania in 1989-2003 years.SO all players that are playing ball in other countries and other clubs shouldnt be allowed to play for their national team,because they take advantage of those countries basketball system right ? so basically to go with your logic only 15-20% should be allowed to play for national team from national championships only those one ! all those that are doing career in different countries should not be allowed to play,because they become better player playing outside their country in other systems ! give me a break,naturalisation problem is not here.Problem is when you take players that has nothing to do with your country,he dont know a single word in those country language and so on , playing just for money.THIS IS THE PROBLEM

 

[boz742]

Let me point you to Kleiza and Kaukėnas cases who took advantage of USA youth system but played for Lithuania. Kleiza moved to USA at 16 years old, never lived in Lithuania, never played in Lithuania just was born in there.

Never lived in Lithuania, really? Where did he live until age 16, then?

Are those players not elegible because they did not grow up at Lithuania and did not play in Lithuania system

I'm pretty sure they did grow up in Lithuania and did play in the Lithuanian basketball system (not to mention that they do not hold any other citizenship).

It appears you're trying to advance your argument by making stuff up.

Besides, Sabonis took advantage of Spanish and Lithuania youth system, and he chooses Lithuania because of identity. I do not see what problem you have with that. I can see that he takes advantage of Lithuania system and leave to play for Spain. Same problem, is it not?

How did he take advantage of the Lithuanian youth system if he never played there? If you mean youth teams, he shouldn't have been allowed there either.

SO all players that are playing ball in other countries and other clubs shouldnt be allowed to play for their national team,because they take advantage of those countries basketball system right ?

If they have not played two seasons in the country they wish to represent, then no, they shouldn't be allowed. Contrary to what you are implying, that is obviously only a tiny minority of all the players that are currently playing abroad.

 

[Shawshank2]

Never lived in Lithuania, really? Where did he live until age 16, then?


I'm pretty sure they did grow up in Lithuania and did play in the Lithuanian basketball system (not to mention that they do not hold any other citizenship).

It appears you're trying to advance your argument by making stuff up.


How did he take advantage of the Lithuanian youth system if he never played there? If you mean youth teams, he shouldn't have been allowed there either.



If they have not played two seasons in the country they wish to represent, then no, they shouldn't be allowed. Contrary to what you are implying, that is obviously only a tiny minority of all the players that are currently playing abroad.

why 2 seasons ? not 7 or 9 seasons? its boz74 rule or what? There are so manny example that player not become what he is until he went play abroad.Biggest part of nba long time european players become stars in europe after playing in american system.Im againts european nba players playing in eurobasket,they become way better after returning from american system .Their national team and their system have nothing to do with progress their player made in usa. He should be allowed to play only for usa.Right thats your logic?

IF lithuanian parents kid born not in Lithuania,it doesnt mean HE IS NOT LITHUANIAN,even our democratical laws is saying that ! You are coming here and saying that kid that want to represent and feel himself Lithuanian like Domantas has no right to play for Lithuania, all of his relatives country, because he was born in spain/usa? Dont worry we dont pay him money,he is doing that because HE IS LITHUANIAN !

Your logic and rules you want to make up is messed up.Sabonis is Lithuanian basketball federation president and our best player of all time and his son will play for Spain ) btw spaniards tried and offered Domantas to play fro Spain.He said im lithuanian ,i cant play for you If Domantas played for spain THAT WOULD BE Naturalisation PROBLEM,not when lithuanian want to play for Lithuania.Get your fact right men.

 

[boz742]

why 2 seasons ? not 7 or 9 seasons? its boz74 rule or what?

Feel free to make it 7 or 9 if you wish. It's a rule that is used by the IIHF, a reputable sports governing body.

Im againts european nba players playing in eurobasket,they become way better after returning from american system .Their national team and their system have nothing to do with progress their player made in usa. He should be allowed to play only for usa.Right thats your logic?

You are entitled to your opinion that NBA players should not be playing in Eurobasket, but that is not my logic at all.

I suggest you stop putting words in my mouth and read my posts with a little more attention.

IF lithuanian parents kid born not in Lithuania,it doesnt mean HE IS NOT LITHUANIAN,even our democratical laws is saying that !

I have said nothing of the sort. Please stop putting word in my mouth and making stuff up.

In addition, you might want to realise that Macedonia's democratic laws made McCalebb a Macedonian, yet a lot of people (maybe including you?) have a problem with him playing for that country's national team. So it seems largely accepted that merely being a citizen of a country shouldn't be enough to make someone eligible for the NT.

You are coming here and saying that kid that want to represent and feel himself Lithuanian like Domantas has no right to play for Lithuania, all of his relatives country, because he was born in spain/usa?

Not at all, I'm saying he shouldn't be allowed to play for Lithuania because he has not played two seasons in Lithuania while he did play two seasons in another country of which he is also a citizen.

Your logic and rules you want to make up is messed up. Sabonis is Lithuanian basketball federation president and our best player of all time and his son will play for Spain )

The sons of Slovakia's best hockey player of all times, former national team head coach and member of parliament, play for the USA, and are not allowed to play for Slovakia. There's nothing messed up about it.

If Domantas played for spain THAT WOULD BE Naturalisation PROBLEM

I'd like you to explain how it would be a "problem" that a Spanish guy who played in Spain for years would also play for the Spanish NT. That seems "messed up" to see something as natural as that as a "problem". Is it also a naturalisation "problem" to you that Tony Parker plays for France or Adetokoumbo for Greece?

 

[usagre2]

I don't understand what the correlation is between a national league and a national team. A player can and should play in any league in the world that offers him the most money. In essence it is just an occupation. I don't see how that impacts his nationality and his roots. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Baloo2]

I can't even comprehend idea that you guys are talking/questioning Sabonis Jr. playing for Lithuanian national team. Just because he is born outside of Lithuania doesn't make him less Lithuanian. Same with American born Greek roots players. Orf course they should have a right to play for the country of their ancestors.