Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

[JAMSKIE2]

And there's nothing wrong with that. A 6'5"-6'6" PG is already gravy. It's good enough for the off-guard. As long as he can bring the ball up and initiate the offense as a combo guard, that's good enough.

As for Chicco, he's been an off-ball threat, a 3&D player, which is also good. We'll need more of those.

What I'm implying is, whenever a Pinoy blogger says this player plays as point guard (specially pag good size ang player like 6-foot-4 or over), I usually don't really take such words as they are. I just think that such player is a natural wingman with good ball handling & passing skills which give him the potential to play as a combo guard.

Of course I agree with you, 6-foot-4/6-foot-5 players playing as as off-guards or shooting guards are already very significant, well what more if such players can play as combo guards. As you've said, that's already gravy.

 

[IPC2]

Does Chico Briones play some point guard role at UP? Parang hindi. He plays as a 3 & as a 4.

I agree with U, modern day 4's are power forwards with wingmen skills. The traditional 4's with post up moves have become rare & irrelevant in modern day basketball.

But I strongly believe that in the point guard position, natural or legit point guards are irreplaceable. Diskumpyando talaga ako with natural shooting guards being converted or compelled to play as point guard. We've seen such disaster during last year's 2023 World Cup game between Gilas & Angolo where a stifling back court press resulted to turnovers by CJ Perez which resulted to easy fastbreaks by the Angoloans. Those were crucial errors. Gilas was able to address the Angolan back court pressure when coach Chot fielded in Kiefer Ravena to bring down the ball. Still, we lost the game. Hindi nahirapan si Kiefer magdala ng bola becoz he is a natural point guard. The same could not be said about CJ Perez who we know is a natural wingman.

Chicco's played mostly 3 with UP. Rarely 4. It's either small ball or a stretch 4 with UP.

The PG issue here stems from the fact that the ballhandling and playmaking roles are exclusive to the PG position, when for the past few, ballhandling and playmaking duties have been with other positions elsewhere for years. Pippen and Jordan with the 90's Bulls, then today with LeBron, Devin Booker, Jayson Tatum, Lamar Odom, Dwyane Wade, Draymond Green being able to handle playmaking and ballhandling duties in the NBA.

In Europe, there are big playmakers like Luka (when he played for Real Madrid), Milos Teodosic, Nick Calathes, but they're put at PG.

 

[IPC2]

What I'm implying is, whenever a Pinoy blogger says this player plays as point guard (specially pag good size ang player like 6-foot-4 or over), I usually don't really take such words as they are. I just think that such player is a natural wingman with good ball handling & passing skills which give him the potential to play as a combo guard.

Of course I agree with you, 6-foot-4/6-foot-5 players playing as as off-guards or shooting guards are already very significant, well what more if such players can play as combo guards. As you've said, that's already gravy.

Agreed, let's see how. That's why it's imperative to first read scouting reports and watch how they play.

Pinoy bloggers talaga minsan, e, they tend to exaggerate for clicks. Gotta make a living, but man.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

Chicco's played mostly 3 with UP. Rarely 4. It's either small ball or a stretch 4 with UP.

The PG issue here stems from the fact that the ballhandling and playmaking roles are exclusive to the PG position, when for the past few, ballhandling and playmaking duties have been with other positions elsewhere for years. Pippen and Jordan with the 90's Bulls, then today with LeBron, Devin Booker, Jayson Tatum, Lamar Odom, Dwyane Wade, Draymond Green being able to handle playmaking and ballhandling duties in the NBA.

In Europe, there are big playmakers like Luka (when he played for Real Madrid), Milos Teodosic, Nick Calathes, but they're put at PG.

Well, ibang talent level naman kasi sina Lebron, Jordan, Pippen, Lamar Odom, Devin Booker & those Euroleague superstars. They are obviously way up there when you compare them to Pinoy players as well as other Asian players in terms of talent level & basketball I. Q.

I believe that Rayray Parks is capable of playing some point guard role since his ball handling & passing is exceptional, but did Parks play such role during his stint with Gilas?

 

[Rds2]

Well, ibang talent level naman kasi sina Lebron, Jordan, Pippen, Lamar Odom, Devin Booker & those Euroleague superstars. They are obviously way up there when you compare them to Pinoy players as well as other Asian players in terms of talent level & basketball I. Q.

I believe that Rayray Parks is capable of playing some point guard role since his ball handling & passing is exceptional, but did Parks play such role during his stint with Gilas?

Rayray Parks is one of the big what ifs. A high NCAA recruit. He was a big guard with good defense. Probably couldve played combo guard or even PG in the US NCAA. But there are more important things in basketball. He played SF in the UAAP against bruising physical defense. He probably got his chronically injured shoulder there. And he has never been the same player. The guy is glass. Even in the times he plays well he will be injured after. The best example is the AFC semis against the Abueva powered Phoenix. Abueva was also up to the challenge. Matching him shot per shot even 3s. Until he played super nova/ import level. They won the series. But he was not the same in the finals and was injured after a couple of games.

 

[Metta2]

Does Chico Briones play some point guard role at UP? Parang hindi. He plays as a 3 & as a 4.

I agree with U, modern day 4's are power forwards with wingmen skills. The traditional 4's with post up moves have become rare & irrelevant in modern day basketball.

But I strongly believe that in the point guard position, natural or legit point guards are irreplaceable. Diskumpyando talaga ako with natural shooting guards being converted or compelled to play as point guard. Of course there are exceptions like a Paul Lee, or a Stanley Pringle. We've seen such disaster during last year's 2023 World Cup game between Gilas & Angola where a stifling back court press resulted to turnovers by CJ Perez which resulted to easy fastbreaks by the Angolans. Those were crucial errors. Gilas was able to address the Angolan back court pressure when coach Chot fielded in Kiefer Ravena to bring down the ball. Still, we lost the game. Hindi nahirapan si Kiefer magdala ng bola becoz he is a natural point guard. The same could not be said about CJ Perez who we know is a natural wingman.

PG's aren't disappearing...in my statement it's the SG that is blurring from either a bigger PG or smaller SF.

What is going extinct internationally though is the short PG, sub-6 foot. Since PGs are now so tall, and players from most positions can handle the ball, shorter players are defensive liabilities.

 

[BJ_Reloaded2]

even though we haven't producing yet players who are in the same breath as those NBA and European players that you've guys keep on mentioning.

well i've been watching several U tournaments nowadays and I would say some local coaches are now embracing that "positionless basketball philosophy on their respective teams that's the otherside of the reality.

but on the other side of the reality, i've seen local coaches who still implements that old school philosophy "let the smaller kids responsible for the ball distribution/handling duties while the much taller kids are responsibile(only) for rebounding, screening and rim protection otherwise they will receive some mouthful if those poor lads won't comply.

 

[Metta2]

even though we haven't producing yet players who are in the same breath as those NBA and European players that you've guys keep on mentioning.

well i've been watching several U tournaments nowadays and I would say some local coaches are now embracing that "positionless basketball philosophy on their respective teams that's the otherside of the reality.

but on the other side of the reality, i've seen local coaches who still implements that old school philosophy "let the smaller kids responsible for the ball distribution/handling duties while the much taller kids are responsibile(only) for rebounding, screening and rim protection otherwise they will receive some mouthful if those poor lads won't comply.

It's a little bit like the chicken or egg problem. In order to play effective position-less basketball, you need skilled players in all positions. But that takes training, development and experience. And unless you purposely develop players for this style, you won't be able to pull it off.

Traditional style is easier and quicker (which is always our preference) because players stick to what they are naturally inclined for...shorter guys for dribbling, bigger guys for power inside.

 

[IPC2]

KQ has outgrown uaap. He's unstoppable and is a walking mismatch. Put a smaller guy and he'll bullyball him, put a bigger guy and he'll play in the perimeter. Put someone who matches him in size/speed or double him and he goes to another gear and either drains stepback three's with consistency, or pull in the defense and make an assist.

Really hope he goes international after this season. He's already hitting his prime and needs to get pushed higher.

It’s honestly good he’s developing his offensive game, it was his weakness during his SGA stint that he couldn’t create for himself especially in that final. But playing in the uaap and for dlsu gives him freedom to try out and develop his individual game that he might not get an opportunity to do in the pros on a team that expects him to contribute right away. I want to see his perimeter defense improve though since he’s not laterally quick

Agreed on the perimeter defense. That will serve him well for Gilas, since he's only 6'5", which makes him situational only at PF (although his length and motor might make up for it). He'll have to play more 3 with us, so he'll have to improve his perimeter defense.

 

[BJ_Reloaded2]

It's a little bit like the chicken or egg problem. In order to play effective position-less basketball, you need skilled players in all positions. But that takes training, development and experience. And unless you purposely develop players for this style, you won't be able to pull it off.

Traditional style is easier and quicker (which is always our preference) because players stick to what they are naturally inclined for...shorter guys for dribbling, bigger guys for power inside.

Sir Mets,

I totally agree on it.

that is why aspiring coaches nowadays should have this "student of the game" mentality if we really want to develop those things that we want to expect to our aspiring kids nowadays.

otherwise if your a typical, as you said the "traditional style", whatever new innovations that popping out in the basketball community nowadays it's really very hard to embrace that because your pride and ego will certainly creep in "I've been doing this for the longest time then why should I change it. it ain't broke why should I fix it".

best example for that is coach Leo Austria of the PBA, majority of the coaches in MPBL and those PBA Grandpa whom until now are firmly embracing the spirit of '75.

 

[Metta2]

Sir Mets,

I totally agree on it.

that is why aspiring coaches nowadays should have this "student of the game" mentality if we really want to develop those things that we want to expect to our aspiring kids nowadays.

otherwise if your a typical, as you said the "traditional style", whatever new innovations that popping out in the basketball community nowadays it's really very hard to embrace that because your pride and ego will certainly creep in "I've been doing this for the longest time then why should I change it. it ain't broke why should I fix it".

best example for that is coach Leo Austria of the PBA, majority of the coaches in MPBL and those PBA Grandpa whom until now are firmly embracing the spirit of '75.

Even though it's a bit slow, we have been progressing. A generation of bigs have been starting to arrive that are highly skilled.

It's no coincidence that it coincides with the internet and smartphones. Now kids who are resourceful can find on the web, training/drills videos which used to be known to only a handful of coaches/trainers. Even trainers/coaches are benefitting from these readily available knowledge.

There was a time when players will have to learn a move when watching a player on tv. There's no explanation of the move (footwork, weight distribution, etc) and kids will have to mimic it based on observation. Now, all moves have detailed breakdowns. Kids also jump higher now because techniques that used to be "secret" is also all over the web.

There's no excuse for being ignorant anymore. Now you only need a smartphone and work ethic to develop yourself.

 

[BJ_Reloaded2]

Even though it's a bit slow, we have been progressing. A generation of bigs have been starting to arrive that are highly skilled.

It's no coincidence that it coincides with the internet and smartphones. Now kids who are resourceful can find on the web, training/drills videos which used to be known to only a handful of coaches/trainers. Even trainers/coaches are benefitting from these readily available knowledge.

There was a time when players will have to learn a move when watching a player on tv. There's no explanation of the move (footwork, weight distribution, etc) and kids will have to mimic it based on observation. Now, all moves have detailed breakdowns. Kids also jump higher now because techniques that used to be "secret" is also all over the web.

There's no excuse for being ignorant anymore. Now you only need a smartphone and work ethic to develop yourself.

Sir Mets,

one player that strikes me is KQ, I think he mentioned in one of his early interviews that one of the things his doing during the pandemic is to watch some videos about skills development.

only a handful of people had the opportunity to rob elbow with a competent skills coach, like in the case of 6'10 kid Aldwil Yap( i hope i didn't butchered the kid's name) who had coach Jeff Codera as his training coach.

the mindset of that boy is something i really do hope ddo jr. may include him in the final 12 despite the status now is still " a work in progress".

experience is still the best teacher.

 

[Metta2]

Sir Mets,

one player that strikes me is KQ, I think he mentioned in one of his early interviews that one of the things his doing during the pandemic is to watch some videos about skills development.

only a handful of people had the opportunity to rob elbow with a competent skills coach, like in the case of 6'10 kid Aldwil Yap( i hope i didn't butchered the kid's name) who had coach Jeff Codera as his training coach.

the mindset of that boy is something i really do hope ddo jr. may include him in the final 12 despite the status now is still " a work in progress".

experience is still the best teacher.

The foundation for skills starts with individual work. Dribbling starts with you doing dribbling skills by yourself. Shooting starts with you shooting by yourself.

The difference now is, you can watch the same drills that the very best players do.

Dribbling/ballhandling is something that will benefit all players if they start doing it early. Every technique you need to become a good dribbler in shown on youtube. From there you only need a basketballl and equipment readily available like plastic bags, tennis balls (or equivalent), something to cover your eyes, etc. Having high profile trainers is no longer necessary. There's even a generation of self-taught trainers popping up who use knowledge from the internet.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

I don't know if majority of us realize this but with the current line-up of Gilas, we are no longer being outsized by most of teams in Asia-Oceania basketball. Gilas size/height has really improved. People would point to 7-foot-1 Kai Sotto as the major factor for this height/size improvement but I think not to be taken for granted is the improvement in size/height in the 3 & 4 positions. We now have two 6-foot-7 natural fours in Carl Tamayo & Mason Amos & 6-foot-5 small forwards in Dwight Ramos, Calvin Oftana & Kevin Quiambao. Looking at Gilas current roster would reveal that there are only 3 players in CJ Perez, Chris Newsome & Iskati Thompson who stand below 6-foot-5 which I think is quite unprecedented in the history of Philippine national team.

I think the only position where we would be outsized by our Asian counterparts would be the shooting guard spot. I just hope that some 4 to 5 years from now we would be seeing 6-foot-4/6-foot-5 natural shooting guards in our national team.

6-4/6-5 versions of CJ Perez, Newsome & Jordan Heading would definitely be gravy.

 

[IPC2]

I don't know if majority of us realize this but with the current line-up of Gilas, we are no longer being outsized by most of teams in Asia-Oceania basketball. Gilas size/height has really improved. People would point to 7-foot-1 Kai Sotto as the major factor for this height/size improvement but I think not to be taken for granted is the improvement in size/height in the 3 & 4 positions. We now have two 6-foot-7 natural fours in Carl Tamayo & Mason Amos & 6-foot-5 small forwards in Dwight Ramos, Calvin Oftana & Kevin Quiambao. Looking at Gilas current roster would reveal that there are only 3 players in CJ Perez, Chris Newsome & Iskati Thompson who stand below 6-foot-5 which I think is quite unprecedented in the history of Philippine national team.

I think the only position where we would be outsized by our Asian counterparts would be the shooting guard spot. I just hope that some 4 to 5 years from now we would be seeing 6-foot-4/6-foot-5 natural shooting guards in our national team.

6-4/6-5 versions of CJ Perez, Newsome & Jordan Heading would definitely be gravy.

We could use the size, length on defense, too. And they're not slow for their position.

Right now, from the group you mentioned, only Dwight, Skati, and Newsome are the reliable defenders. I'll add AJ Edu, as he looks like he has the speed to keep up in the perimeter, and of course JB.

Carl and Quiambao just might get there on defense, Mason has a ways to go, Oftana regressed in his man defense, and CJ, while aggressive, does gamble too much and gets lost on rotations.​

 

[JAMSKIE2]

We could use the size, length on defense, too. And they're not slow for their position.

Right now, from the group you mentioned, only Dwight, Skati, and Newsome are the reliable defenders. I'll add AJ Edu, as he looks like he has the speed to keep up in the perimeter, and of course JB.

Carl and Quiambao just might get there on defense, Mason has a ways to go, Oftana regressed in his man defense, and CJ, while aggressive, does gamble too much and gets lost on rotations.​

Of all the other teams in Asia-Oceania, only China clearly outsize us in every position. Australia wud outsize us if it sends its team-A but the Boomers usually send their team-B or even team-C in the FIBA Asia Cup.

I think the teams that used to outsize us some years ago like Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Qatar, Kazakhstan, could no longer tower our Gilas players.

 

[ccharmed2]

It is the size of players in college that really matters. In my time, a college center is a ridiculous 6'1 like marte samson. It was an even shorter jaworski as ue center before that.

Now, the top uaap and ncaa teams have good 6'4 and 6'5 wings, and capable 6'6-6'7 centers.

The nutrition status is important. South korean male teenagers went from about 5'3 to almost 5'10 now in just six decades. That is taller than the usa average.

Pinoy baller teams grow about an inch taller per decade. This is very important. The national team is at least two inches taller.

So, by the 2040s, the "natural" height of pinoy college centers will be 6'8 to 6'9. This is about the basic size of bigs in american and european college teams already. It is impossible for other countries to average a lot higher due to human physical growth limits. There are no male populations, for instance, that average 6'2 and taller even in the best fed, or historically taller populations like the slavs.

I noted this nutrition and height trend decades ago, and commented on such in early basketball forums.

So, in about two decades, being in the world top 20 teams will be expected for our national teams, as they will be physically sized and athletically the same as top international teams even without filam imports. There is no way that china and australia nts will oversize us still in the 2040s. Our nts will be in the 6'7 average height, which is the normal size for international nts for decades already.

Even those other asean midget punk teams from indonesia and malaysia will be competitively bigger. Or compare that with 5'3-5'5 imperial roman warriors 2 thousand years ago.

No atrocious nt coaches,however, like coachot will effectively work though even in the 2040s.

 

[live_evil2]

But Joke is still here and making a mess of the youth team.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

Among the type of players in the Philippine national teams in the past that underperformed in actual FIBA games are the go-to-guy/scorer type of 2-guards/shooting guards. I remember Mark Caguioa in the 2007 FIBA Asia Championship being among the top 3 players of the Phi team & perhaps the Phi basketball's best 2-guard, yet in the 2007 FIBA Asia Championship tournament proper Caguioa was a huge dissapointment especially on the crucial games of the Phi team. Caguioa was playing well in the pre-tournament games that the team played, especially in the 2007 Jones Cup & the 2007 Manila Invitational Cup, yet in the tournament proper he sucked big time which was a huge factor in the Philippines dismal 9th place finish in that tournament.

Fast forward 6 years from then, it was the turn of Garry David to suck with Gilas in the 2013 FIBA Asia Championship. This to think that David was the best 2-guard/shooting guard of Phi basketball at that time. Yung nag-aapoy na mga kamay ni Garry David that we were seeing in his PBA games were nowhere to be found in the 2013 FIBA Asia Championship. David was really the dissapointment in the Gilas team at that time.

Obviously, David & Caguioa couldn't carryover their respective explosive games in the PBA to the FIBA level.

I wonder what was the reason behind? Is that the case of Caguioa & David getting intimated by the taller wing defenders they faced in the FIBA game?

 

[IPC2]

Among the type of players in the Philippine national teams in the past that underperformed in actual FIBA games are the go-to-guy/scorer type of 2-guards/shooting guards. I remember Mark Caguioa in the 2007 FIBA Asia Championship being among the top 3 players of the Phi team & perhaps the Phi basketball's best 2-guard, yet in the 2007 FIBA Asia Championship tournament proper Caguioa was a huge dissapointment especially on the crucial games of the Phi team. Caguioa was playing well in the pre-tournament games that the team played, especially in the 2007 Jones Cup & the 2007 Manila Invitational Cup, yet in the tournament proper he sucked big time which was a huge factor in the Philippines dismal 9th place finish in that tournament.

Fast forward 6 years from then, it was the turn of Garry David to suck with Gilas in the 2013 FIBA Asia Championship. This to think that David was the best 2-guard/shooting guard of Phi basketball at that time. Yung nag-aapoy na mga kamay ni Garry David that we were seeing in his PBA games were nowhere to be found in the 2013 FIBA Asia Championship. David was really the dissapointment in the Gilas team at that time.

Obviously, David & Caguioa couldn't carryover their respective explosive games in the PBA to the FIBA level.

I wonder what was the reason behind? Is that the case of Caguioa & David getting intimated by the taller wing defenders they faced in the FIBA game?

Matthew Wright comes to mind as well. Good shot creator in the PBA, as well as a good facilitator, but underperformed internationally, even in the 2021 SEA Games. Poor shooting, and not a good defender. However, I do think that he could have been useful if he were used as at least a playmaker and maybe a secondary shot creator.

The one go-to guy off-guard that performed well in Gilas was Bobby Ray Parks Jr. He can hit threes in low volume and is a good defender, which makes him extremely valuable in the international context. Sayang, he can't commit anymore.

There's CJ Perez too. Apart from that good 2019 WC showing, not really spectacular. Lot of wild drives. Gambles a lot on defense. It generates a lot of turnovers, but he gets caught out of position when he does it too much. Plus, his man-to-man defense is not that good. His saving grace is that he hustles hard, and he can hit key drives.