Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

[sroth38392]

B league really has the best eligible Pinoy talent

https://fb.watch/nG-YXF-_2y/?mibextid=NnVzG8

Actually cause B league uses FIBA eligibility rules, Mas ok sila for FIBA than PBA na mostly ineligible yung better players

The amount of Fil-Ams in the PBA is what actually caused plenty of disinterest amongst my peers.

 

[Rds2]

The amount of Fil-Ams in the PBA is what actually caused plenty of disinterest amongst my peers.

Yes it did so for me several years ago. Actually, not the number of Filfors but how they dominated the homegrowns. You know how how the PBA responded? Under Kom Eala I think, they made it extra hard for Filfors to get drafted. The documentation was so strict for Filfors that many goos ones, like Brickman, werent able to join the draft.

However, theoretically any protectionist rule should be temporary. They should give enough time for donestic industries to catchup. After a certain time period, like it or not, you have to drop all those extra requirements and treat the Filfors like any passport wielding citizen.

The Filfors may have dominated the draft now but that doesnt mean that the gap between homegrowns and Filfors is that wide. I admit that Filfors in general are still better than homegrowns but the gap is not as wide as before. Guys like Carl and Balti are not that faraway size and skillswise from their Filfor peers. Dave I I think can compete with Filfor guards. Its just our best homegrowns have better alternatives to the PBA.

Soon the UAAP homegrowns like Briones, Belmonte will be ripe enough for the PBA. Then I dont think their skills and size will ne faraway from their Filfor co draftees. Its high time the PBA let competition in. Unfortunately the undersized NCAA bigs will be pushed out.

This is where the NCAA will feel how they are failing their bigs. If they are not training their bigger players to play and defend in the perimeter they are shortchanging their careers. They wont even reach the PBA.

 

[ARMIR2]

I have a feeling that if it were SMC people who handled Gilas in the World Cup, and Brownlee wasn't injured (remember he had burn spurs), they would have opted for Brownlee as our NP instead of Clarkson. I think SMC people would not have wanted a Clarkson coming in to join Gilas with only barely 3 weeks before the competition. And knowing coach Tim Cone who puts a lot of emphasis on cohesion/chemistry.

Three to four weeks is the average of other world teams,specially the ones with an NBA player and others coming off from their respective clubs.Four weeks to 5 weeks for NPs and overseas and 8 weeks for the locals shoulld be enough practice and scrimmage games with other countries should be enough.

 

[DAdmiral2]

More important than the tournament preparation time ( which will realistically be no longer than 1 month) , is how much time the coaches and core players have been together over the years, this is actually the key reason for the Asiad Gold ( Ginebra core Chua, cone, Brownlee , sccotie etc have been to many battles over the years) . Which is really a knock on the SBP's approach for the the World cup, with 5 years to prepare and build a core (which was starting to be visible in 2021 OQT , Tab's team) , we ended up with like 2 weeks hugot preparation, which is really unexcusable , negligence .

 

[JAMSKIE2]

More important than the tournament preparation time ( which will realistically be no longer than 1 month) , is how much time the coaches and core players have been together over the years, this is actually the key reason for the Asiad Gold ( Ginebra core Chua, cone, Brownlee , sccotie etc have been to many battles over the years) . Which is really a knock on the SBP's approach for the the World cup, with 5 years to prepare and build a core (which was starting to be visible in 2021 OQT , Tab's team) , we ended up with like 2 weeks hugot preparation, which is really unexcusable , negligence .

So U think the Gilas Asian Games team is more cohesive than the Gilas World Cup team?

I think a lot of poster here wud agree with U on that.

This despite the Asiad team only had about 2 weeks of preparation while the World Cup team had about 2 months of preparation although Jordan Clarkson & Kai joined the team at the "11th hour".

 

[Metta2]

It s just weired how we complain about coaches here don't train their bigs modern big man skills. Yet its our local who has more of it than FSA, even some players coming from US.

You're not understanding the point. The big men in our college teams are the top elite prospects in our country. It's frustrating that a lot of them were not adequately trained, especially since they are so rare in our country.

The FSAs and the Phillips types that we see here in our country are far away from being the top prospects of their country of origin. And from where they came from, they are not that rare when it comes to size and athleticism.

And in the case of the Phillips bros, I'm sure you know how the US develops their top bigs.

 

[IPC2]

More important than the tournament preparation time ( which will realistically be no longer than 1 month) , is how much time the coaches and core players have been together over the years, this is actually the key reason for the Asiad Gold ( Ginebra core Chua, cone, Brownlee , sccotie etc have been to many battles over the years) . Which is really a knock on the SBP's approach for the the World cup, with 5 years to prepare and build a core (which was starting to be visible in 2021 OQT , Tab's team) , we ended up with like 2 weeks hugot preparation, which is really unexcusable , negligence .

Just needed to replace some players in the 2021 team like the Nieto twins, Isaac Go. Keep around Navarro, Kai, Dwight, Heading, Carl, Ange, RJ, even Balti, Lopez and SJ in the pool, then add some professionals to add talent while preserving chemistry.

Now, applying this to the Asiad group, retain the rotation pieces like Scottie, Perez, June Mar, Oftana, Newsome in the group while adding some non-PBA players for talent in FIBA. Preserve chemistry while adding talent.

 

[IPC2]

I know then why we complain if our coaches plays tall local players inside. If our coaches have players who are 7 footers in HS they will then move 6'5 players to 4 position.​​​

You're not understanding the point. The big men in our college teams are the top elite prospects in our country. It's frustrating that a lot of them were not adequately trained, especially since they are so rare in our country.

The FSAs and the Phillips types that we see here in our country are far away from being the top prospects of their country of origin. And from where they came from, they are not that rare when it comes to size and athleticism.

And in the case of the Phillips bros, I'm sure you know how the US develops their top bigs.

Nothing wrong with playing our tall local players inside at 5, as long as they are also drilled in lateral movement, guarding the perimeter and in switches, and the ability to play either forward position. The main problem is that some undersized bigs were trained to exclusively play the 5 spot, like Javillonar, Muyang, Justin Chua, and Mario Barasi. Good thing that some good young bigs in Mason, Carl, Balti, Gozum, and Quiambao were trained to play 4 as well.

 

[zairex2]

Nothing wrong with playing our tall local players inside at 5, as long as they are also drilled in lateral movement, guarding the perimeter and in switches, and the ability to play either forward position. The main problem is that some undersized bigs were trained to exclusively play the 5 spot, like Javillonar, Muyang, Justin Chua, and Mario Barasi. Good thing that some good young bigs in Mason, Carl, Balti, Gozum, and Quiambao were trained to play 4 as well.

From years of watching basketball I notice this.

Lateral and athleticism are based on DNA. Like Jokic, lost alot of weight yet still and will always get killed on PnR or perimeter players. Nuggets just create a defensive strategy for it. Like forcing the guards to a spot where the helps will come or zone up on the weak side. Tell me someone like Boban or Jokic who started slow then became athletic. I have seen quick players slow down on bulking up muscle but not the other way around.

 

[zairex2]

You're not understanding the point. The big men in our college teams are the top elite prospects in our country. It's frustrating that a lot of them were not adequately trained, especially since they are so rare in our country.

The FSAs and the Phillips types that we see here in our country are far away from being the top prospects of their country of origin. And from where they came from, they are not that rare when it comes to size and athleticism.

And in the case of the Phillips bros, I'm sure you know how the US develops their top bigs.

From Africa maybe the training is not good. But in USA, more likely they have good training. I mean even Dwight had good handles even being a 4 in HS.

Who are these elite top prospect that are less trained in our college teams

 

[Rds2]

From years of watching basketball I notice this.

Lateral and athleticism are based on DNA. Like Jokic, lost alot of weight yet still and will always get killed on PnR or perimeter players. Nuggets just create a defensive strategy for it. Like forcing the guards to a spot where the helps will come or zone up on the weak side. Tell me someone like Boban or Jokic who started slow then became athletic. I have seen quick players slow down on bulking up muscle but not the other way around.

You are right but I think you can maximize your laterals by maintaining a lower weight. Boban for instance is ripped and probably has a better muscle to fat ratio than JMF. The NBA is just a different animal than even Fiba when it comes lateral speed requirement.

Caucasian NBA players are not known for their laterals in general. They are drop defenders. They can be exposed by NBA guards because of the rules in the NBA. However, Fiba is more lenient to centers. They can wait in the paint without being called for 3 seconds on defense. There is also a bit more physicality and verticality is more accepted.

This is why for me the lighter weight JMF, like in the OQT, wouldve been ideal for Fiba. Take note, JMF was in his best possible fitness such that he could switch. It still wasn't ideal but it is far from his level now where, as Yeshkel pointed out, his guards even had to go under the screen to help him. He was such a liability when dropping against guards that his teammates had to go under the screen to help him recover against them.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr9dqpqrGdo

Well said by the vlogger.

Its really a must that our good people at SBP would plan ahead of time. They have to determine which players are available & which players won't be available. SBP must talk to the PBA, UAAP, NCAA & those B-league & KBL Pinoy players regarding the 2025 FIBA Asia Cup qualifiers. Dapat prangkahin na ng SBP ang PBA if the league is going to lend its players or not for the 1st window of the Asia Cup qualifiers in Feb. 2024. In this way, malaman agad if both PBA & foreign based Pinoy Gilas prospects would be available. In case PBA players aren't available, then we go with B-league & KBL players. It is also important that we make those players to commit & be certain of their availability come the February window. Mahirap kasi baka yung ibang players would be on a honeymoon by February (yung isang player ba naman eh 2 years kung mag honeymoon eh).

Baka kasi ang mangyari is, Al Panlilio would wait until one month nalang yung 1st window qualifier saka palang sila mag-uusap ng PBA & B-league players. Talking about "usad pagong" attitude by SBP.

 

[zairex2]

You are right but I think you can maximize your laterals by maintaining a lower weight. Boban for instance is ripped and probably has a better muscle to fat ratio than JMF. The NBA is just a different animal than even Fiba when it comes lateral speed requirement.

Caucasian NBA players are not known for their laterals in general. They are drop defenders. They can be exposed by NBA guards because of the rules in the NBA. However, Fiba is more lenient to centers. They can wait in the paint without being called for 3 seconds on defense. There is also a bit more physicality and verticality is more accepted.

This is why for me the lighter weight JMF, like in the OQT, wouldve been ideal for Fiba. Take note, JMF was in his best possible fitness such that he could switch. It still wasn't ideal but it is far from his level now where, as Yeshkel pointed out, his guards even had to go under the screen to help him. He was such a liability when dropping against guards that his teammates had to go under the screen to help him recover against them.

Boban could not even keep up with Kai o Kouame if they attack from perimeter. You can see his lateral not enough even from our big players.

Yeshkel is wrong in that one. The guards should not go under as it will be open shot and moving your big that high, the roller will have a momentum going to the basket. Same issue with 36ers defense when Kai was with them.

Like what Roger Pogoy does, he fights the screen to keep him near the ball handler, which will prevent a quick shot and force the ball handler to dribble and to a midrange shot as JF is on the paint waiting for a drive. Its what is called ice defense.

 

[ARMIR2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr9dqpqrGdo

Well said by the vlogger.

Its really a must that our good people at SBP would plan ahead of time. They have to determine which players are available & which players won't be available. SBP must talk to the PBA, UAAP, NCAA & those B-league & KBL Pinoy players regarding the 2025 FIBA Asia Cup qualifiers. Dapat prangkahin na ng SBP ang PBA if the league is going to lend its players or not for the 1st window of the Asia Cup qualifiers in Feb. 2024. In this way, malaman agad if both PBA & foreign based Pinoy Gilas prospects would be available. In case PBA players aren't available, then we go with B-league & KBL players. It is also important that we make those players to commit & be certain of their availability come the February window. Mahirap kasi baka yung ibang players would be on a honeymoon by February (yung isang player ba naman eh 2 years kung mag honeymoon eh).

Baka kasi ang mangyari is, Al Panlilio would wait until one month nalang yung 1st window qualifier saka palang sila mag-uusap ng PBA & B-league players. Talking about "usad pagong" attitude by SBP.

So there's a big chance that Jong would end up coaching the February window with overseas Pinoy players and UAAP standouts,probably Ateneo and UP players.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

So there's a big chance that Jong would end up coaching the February window with overseas Pinoy players and UAAP standouts,probably Ateneo and UP players.

It's just a mere suggestion by the vlogger bro.

 

[Kaireem2]

in the perfect world, this gilas version should be it (this is just for fun though i gave this serious thought too)


starters
center - ange kouame (if he gets local exemption)
power forward - aj edu
small forward - justin brownlee (if he doesn't get suspended)
shooting guard - dwight ramos
point guard - robert bolick (if he, smc and sbp patch things up)

bench
center - junmar fajardo (ready to go right now and still has good years in him) or kai sotto (if he improves his defense, gilas has no other readily available option at center after kouame and junmar), how about james laput?
power forward - if we get local exemption then cstand or mike phillips, if no exemption then carl tamayo or baltazar
small forward - calvin oftana and will navarro with jamie malonzo as another option
shooting guard - renz abando, ken tuffin with cj perez in reserve
point guard - scottie thompson and rj abbarientos

wish list

fiba classifies kouame, brownlee and clarkson as locals thereby opening up the naturalized player slot which we can then use on another big man (demarcus cousins perhaps?) or even on jalen green

we include pba role players who can defend the wings in the pool, scoring will be a bonus if ever but their primary role will be the wild card to disrupt the other team's best wings - say the likes of nick demusis (guy is athletic and is still 6'3-6'4) or how about mac belo as a role player or the longshot of longshots giving troy rosario that role? again no scoring just defense and hustle.

 

[Metta2]

From Africa maybe the training is not good. But in USA, more likely they have good training. I mean even Dwight had good handles even being a 4 in HS.

Who are these elite top prospect that are less trained in our college teams

This is the problem in our country. People either do not know there is a problem or are denying it.

The context of our conversation...you mentioned how Mike P is an unskilled big player from the US and here we are complaining why our players aren't skilled when they are more skilled than Mike.

My point was Mike wasn't a top prospect in the US, he wasn't on the radar. In terms of ranking, he'd be in the thousands. They have an abundance of prospects that size.

In our country, anyone above 6'7 is considered a top prospect, because there's only a handful of them. But what have we been doing with them, how come we still don't have any homegrown D1's? Where's our Watanabe (from that country you keep downplaying).

The fact is we keep wasting these tall kids. And it still continues. Just look at kids who are projected to be really tall at around the 16 year old range. All of them are painfully raw and slow, that's another wasted batch. There's a way to make even really tall players skilled and very mobile, but it takes a lot of work and you have to get them ready at an early age.

The bar is so low because people deny it is low.

 

[Metta2]

But in USA, more likely they have good training.

Are you serious with this statement? Why did I even waste time responding

 

[Kaireem2]

This is the problem in our country. People either do not know there is a problem or are denying it.

The context of our conversation...you mentioned how Mike P is an unskilled big player from the US and here we are complaining why our players aren't skilled when they are more skilled than Mike.

My point was Mike wasn't a top prospect in the US, he wasn't on the radar. In terms of ranking, he'd be in the thousands. They have an abundance of prospects that size.

In our country, anyone above 6'7 is considered a top prospect, because there's only a handful of them. But what have we been doing with them, how come we still don't have any homegrown D1's? Where's our Watanabe (from that country you keep downplaying).

The fact is we keep wasting these tall kids. And it still continues. Just look at kids who are projected to be really tall at around the 16 year old range. All of them are painfully raw and slow, that's another wasted batch. There's a way to make even really tall players skilled and very mobile, but it takes a lot of work and you have to get them ready at an early age.

The bar is so low because people deny it is low.

there's a cultural and economic aspect to this which needs to be managed if we want to develop basketball players for international competition

even the lgus want a piece of the pie whenever there's a prospect in their town, municipality, barrio, province, etc. look at delta's "grassroots program" in pampanga, sure it veers kids away from drugs which is really noble but it has also morphed into a "talent agency". boni garcia once remarked that when he was recruiting wynne arboleda in aklan to play for mlqu (this was in the 90s) he had to go thru the mayor. so its not easy really, unless the gov't steps up and provides support to the families as well.

 

[System2]

Boban could not even keep up with Kai o Kouame if they attack from perimeter. You can see his lateral not enough even from our big players.

Yeshkel is wrong in that one. The guards should not go under as it will be open shot and moving your big that high, the roller will have a momentum going to the basket. Same issue with 36ers defense when Kai was with them.

Like what Roger Pogoy does, he fights the screen to keep him near the ball handler, which will prevent a quick shot and force the ball handler to dribble and to a midrange shot as JF is on the paint waiting for a drive. Its what is called ice defense.

Actually, ICE defense is when a pick and roll ball handler is prevented from getting middle penetration through specific coordinated actions by the ball handler defender and the PNR man defender. Middle penetration usually results to a straight line drive to the rim which is the best shot in basketball in terms of success rate. The defense will collapse whenever a successful drive to the middle to protect the basket. This will result to players leaving their man open for the drop pass or for the open three. Thus, a good defense will always try to prevent middle penetration, and one effective way is the ICE defense, especially when the defensive bigman does not have the laterals to hard hedge or switch properly.

Now, to perform a proper ICE Defense, when the offense is starting to attempt a PNR action, the PNR ball handler defender (usually the guard) needs to go to one side of the ball handler and angle his body towards the sideline, and force the ball handler to go to the direction of the sideline. Simultaneously, the PNR man defender needs to do drop defense towards the direction the ball handler is being forced.

It actually is the opposite of the guard fighting over the screen, the guard is not fighting over the screen because he is forcing the ball handler to go to the other direction.

This way, we theoretically now have three defenders in our arsenal using only two men: the guard, the bigman and in effect, the sideline.