Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. V

[deku_midoriya2]

Pba teams dont make money. They do this for marketing. More exposure, more games.

How do teams recoup investments from multimillion player contracts if they dont maximize brand exposure? We have to answer this on a business standpoint if we expect schedule changes from the PBA.

Imo, we need to restructure player contracts for players to get paid only during tournament months. Pay cut is the key.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

2007 - burnout, group of death (only one team qualify from group stages)

2009 - ill prepared, but still good enough to beat japan and taipei and move to qf

2011- imagine if same format as 2007, we beat jordan already in group stage. We would be in finals

2013 - we are prepared, the best players and playing at home, so we expect finals

2015 - home cooking. Iran was still the best team in asia, but in this tournament i can definitely say that gilas was the better team in 2015

2017 - injury to jf, underestimating korea and inability of chot to adjust in defense. He was exposed defensively

Lack of preparation as well. I think we only had about 12 days to prepare in 2017. The cadets/amateur players were supposed to represent us but a change of mind by the PBA resulted to SBP sending an all-PBA team.

 

[neo2]

Believe me brad when I say that the 3-conference format hasn't anything much to do with our success in 2013 to 2015. Nagkataon lang yun brad that during the 2007, when we finished 9th, & 2009, when we finished 8th, the PBA was in a 2-conference format, while in the 2013 & 2015, where we won both silver medals, eh PBA was in a 3-conference format.

I put it this way, in 2007, we fell into the "Group of Death", and that told much of our chances. In 2009, we had an ill-experience national team coach in terms of FIBA game experience.

Of course as you & some posters here have mentioned, having a naturalized player in 2013 & 2015 was a huge factor. As you've said, maraming factors or variables that came to play. But honestly, the 3-conference format of PBA was hardly any factor for our good showing in 2013 & 2015 as compared to our debacles in 2007 & 2009 in which PBA was then in a 2-conference format.

i was not arguing that d 3-conference format is a factor for success. On d contrary, my point is that the number of conferences is not a major factor for success and failure.

 

[neo2]

Lack of preparation as well. I think we only had about 12 days to prepare in 2017. The cadets/amateur players were supposed to represent us but a change of mind by the PBA resulted to SBP sending an all-PBA team.

no true naturalized player. that's about it.

 

[tomcat2]

Here's how I see it:

2007 RP team coached by Chot Reyes sucked by placing a dismal 9th place finish. This despite that team had at least 6 months of full-time training/preparation. On the other hand the 2013 Gilas team handled by Chot finished an impressive 2nd place & that team only had about 4 months of training (counting the 2 months training & tournament stints in 2012).

Now, is it logical to conclude that mas mabuti pa ang mas maikling training, mas successful pa yung national team? I don't think that is how we should analyze it. That's becoz some significant factors came into play such as the presence of a naturalized player in 2013 while we didn't have one in 2007, the luck of the draw (remember the "Group of Death" we fell into in 2007. While in 2013 we had the luxury of choosing our group being the host) & I think better coaching in 2013 (I think the Chot Reyes in 2013 was a better coach in so far as FIBA game is concerned than the Chot Reyes in 2007).

I believe the significant factors that will decide the fate of the team are: team composition, presence or lack of a naturalized player, period & quality of preparation/training, coaching & luck.

The 2007 RP team peaked early(William Jones Cup)..

 

[tomcat2]

i still believe that d wings of china in d mid-90s to early 2000s (8th place, 1994 wc, 1996 olympics) are superior to the mid-2000s to current.

Ma Jian, Sun Jun, Hu Weidong..

 

[JAMSKIE2]

i was not arguing that d 3-conference format is a factor for success. On d contrary, my point is that the number of conferences is not a major factor for success and failure.

Ok. I just backread you're original post & yeah, I get your point.

Going back to the 2-coference vs. 3-conference topic. Maybe a "shortened" PBA season, say 8 & 1/2 months to 9 months instead of 10 months (while retaining the usual No. of games in a season) & adjusting the PBA calendar in which its off-season would be in line with FIBA tournament schedule (July, Aug., Sept.) might be more of a factor for National team success.

But, from the looks of it, PBA isn't willing to make such sacrifice.

 

[neo2]

Ok. I just backread you're original post & yeah, I get your point.

Going back to the 2-coference vs. 3-conference topic. Maybe a "shortened" PBA season, say 8 & 1/2 months to 9 months instead of 10 months (while retaining the usual No. of games in a season) & adjusting the PBA calendar in which its off-season would be in line with FIBA tournament schedule (July, Aug., Sept.) might be more of a factor for National team success.

But, from the looks of it, PBA isn't willing to make such sacrifice.

perhaps in d future.

for now, its good that sbp and pba agree on pba gilas draft players joining d gilas pool with further reinforcements whenever plausible. MVP though should be a model and show that he prioritizes international tournaments by allowing/requiring players from his 3 teams (e.g., one from each team joining d OQT and/or asia cup, like pogoy, ravena, almazan). of course, he wont because that would be detrimental to his pba teams performance. but that's d point. if d sbp people with pba teams dont, why would d rest of d pba bother.

 

[IPC2]

perhaps in d future.

for now, its good that sbp and pba agree on pba gilas draft players joining d gilas pool with further reinforcements whenever plausible. MVP though should be a model and show that he prioritizes international tournaments by allowing/requiring players from his 3 teams (e.g., one from each team joining d OQT and/or asia cup, like pogoy, ravena, almazan). of course, he wont because that would be detrimental to his pba teams performance. but that's d point. if d sbp people with pba teams dont, why would d rest of d pba bother.

Agree that the Gilas draft is a good compromise. Time for development for the Gilas draftees, and we'll have a pool of additional players for FIBA tournaments. Plus, we may not have to rely on hugot as much in the future.

That said, I just want the Gilas draft to be integrated into the regular draft so that there are no accusations of MVP hoarding players.

 

[IPC2]

It somewhat annoys me to hear some people making a negative reaction if someone says like the best players of Phi basketball at present or currently are in the PBA. Isn't ganoon naman talaga yung totoo?

Is there a non-PBA Pinoy FIBA eligible (I mean sure na eligible) point guard who is better than Jason Castro or Kiefer or a Robert Bolick at "present"?

Do we honestly believe that Thirdy is better wingman than CJ Perez at present. Or Rey Suerte a better 2-guard than Paul Lee? Or Dwight Ramos being a better wingman than Rayray Parks at present?

Yes, one could make a case on Kai Sotto, currently being in the same level as Junmar or Greg Slaughter, or perhaps Kai even better, but how about the rest?

Being projected as among the elite players in a not so distant "future" is very much different from being among the best players "at present".

i don't think the notion that gilas players from the amateur ranks are better than their PBA counterparts is a popular one, albeit there are indeed fans who think this way.

the more common consensus these days is that even though these non-pba players are less skilled individually, their familiarity with the system makes for a more potent team.

i need to clarify, however, that familiarity among the players is not the key to winning against stronger teams. it must be familiarity with an effective system. thankfully, we have that now because of coach tab.

to illustrate, one need look no further than the 2018 asiad squad. it's basically a guiao team reinforced by some of the pba's best and with jordan clarkson to boot.

we don't want another 2018 asiad squad.

I agree with sir JAMSKIE. PBA players are currently better than our current senior team, individually. Plus, potential is not a sure thing. I do believe that a lot of our young players in the senior team have the potential to be better, and I hope they do reach that potential.

Agree about the more cohesive team and effective system part too. Hopefully effective systems will now be the norm for the senior team from now on.

 

[Labradoodle2]

I agree with sir JAMSKIE. PBA players are currently better than our current senior team, individually. Plus, potential is not a sure thing. I do believe that a lot of our young players in the senior team have the potential to be better, and I hope they do reach that potential.

Agree about the more cohesive team and effective system part too. Hopefully effective systems will now be the norm for the senior team from now on.

If only people see it this way: invest in the younger players for the longetivity of the program and ACTUAL improvement of Philippine basketball in the long run.

The results won't be immediate but that should not be discouraging. Iran and Lebanon, for example, did not become a powerhouse overnight. They built theor basketball competitiveness for at least a decade

If the younger players develop better habits and stronger fundamentals, these will be the same players who will go to the PBA and bring these international experience and skillsets

 

[IPC2]

Coach Tab might have detected Paul Lee's shortcoming in defense at that time.

It somewhat amazed me how coach Tab was able to mold such a strong Gilas team in 2015 despite having an aging Dondon Hontiveros as his chief shooter at the wings. This to think that Hontiveros struggled with his 3 pt shooting for most part of the 2015 FIBA Asia Championship.JC Intal wasn't among the elite wingmen og the PBA at that time. But I think it was guards Castro & Romeo who really stepped up for Gilas. Then there's Calvin Abueva, who for me was the revelation of the tournament.

Didn't Gilas 2015 have Pingris and Abueva? These people were the kind of players who weren't fazed by larger opponents.

The 2015 team had players that were defense minded

Yep, that team had a lot of defensive-minded players. Calvin, Ping, Dondon, Gabe, probably Intal. We had a good defense that year. Even China struggled against us during the final.

Hopefully we can develop the same mindset of 'defense wins championships' with this team. However, seeing them execute Tab's offense is good enough for now. I hope we can test the defense against SoKor soon.

Good news is we have potentially impactful defensive players. Kouame, Lopez, Baltazar, Cariño, and probably Dwight and Kai. Let me know if I missed somebody. For now, hopefully we get more defensive-minded players, especially two-way players.

 

[neo2]

Yep, that team had a lot of defensive-minded players. Calvin, Ping, Dondon, Gabe, probably Intal. We had a good defense that year. Even China struggled against us during the final.

Hopefully we can develop the same mindset of 'defense wins championships' with this team. However, seeing them execute Tab's offense is good enough for now. I hope we can test the defense against SoKor soon.

Good news is we have potentially impactful defensive players. Kouame, Lopez, Baltazar, Cariño, and probably Dwight and Kai. Let me know if I missed somebody. For now, hopefully we get more defensive-minded players, especially two-way players.

d nieto twins are decent defenders. thirdy thinks he's a 2-way player. tab previously quipped that suerte plays defense. and tungcab is supposed to a defensive specialist.

 

[Jupitersa2]

I see Thirdy being an elite defensive specialist for the team on the opponent's 2 and 3 position seeing how he's always tasked to defend Imports on the B-League. Similar to Norwood's role on the defensive end.

 

[neo2]

I see Thirdy being an elite defensive specialist for the team on the opponent's 2 and 3 position seeing how he's always tasked to defend Imports on the B-League. Similar to Norwood's role on the defensive end.

he guarded wing imports. get burned most of d time but good experience for him.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

Guys, do you think that in coach Tab's system, bawal ang defensive liability? That no matter how good a scorer or how offensive skilled a player is, if he's a deadweight in offense, he has no place in coach Tab's system, unless maybe that player is as good as Jordan Clarkson.

 

[interxavierxxx2]

I see Thirdy being an elite defensive specialist for the team on the opponent's 2 and 3 position seeing how he's always tasked to defend Imports on the B-League. Similar to Norwood's role on the defensive end.

He needs to lessen those daredevil moves if he wants to stay injury-free.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

he guarded wing imports. get burned most of d time but good experience for him.

Well, those are world imports. The thing is, even the best defensive specialists of the PBA back then like Glen Capacio, Rey Evangelista, Alvin Teng, Chris Jackson, got burned by imports most of the time. Thirdy is more known for his offense than his defense. But what I like about Thirdy's stint in Japan is that he is getting the reps matching up with good quality wingmen, may it be imports or local Japanese players. Such experience would only polish both his offensive & defensive skills.

 

[mathematicianrcg2]

Guys, do you think that in coach Tab's system, bawal ang defensive liability? That no matter how good a scorer or how offensive skilled a player is, if he's a deadweight in offense, he has no place in coach Tab's system, unless maybe that player is as good as Jordan Clarkson.

I think so.

If you are not an exceptional Offensive Player like Carmelo Anthony or James Harden, I dont think you will crack the lineup by being a def liability.

Clarkson is not a bad defender imo. Kai and AJ are great rim protectors.

Two way players are a must in Fiba Worlds imo.

Gabe is a defensive specialist. But he lacks offense in world standards. Jeff Chan was a good offensive sniper, but he was a defensive liability

 

[neo2]

Guys, do you think that in coach Tab's system, bawal ang defensive liability? That no matter how good a scorer or how offensive skilled a player is, if he's a deadweight in offense, he has no place in coach Tab's system, unless maybe that player is as good as Jordan Clarkson.

liability no u wont cut it.

but if ur a below average defender with elite skills in other areas, u have a good shot (e.g. castro, romeo).