Lithuanian Point Guards

[Straight forward2]

what hype? Seibutis is from small city and never played before in any youth tournaments till 2005 and first tournament he become MVP thats insane from that regard. If he had been ale hyped he would have been in youth teams 2001-2004.

Seibutis is underdog story,not some hype prospect that everybody talked since he was like 16 like lots of our hyped youth "stars" that never could even reach real men NT player status.

Seibutis was taken to youth NT only when he started balling In sakalai at 19 big time.

From this angle, yes, he came a little bit out of nowhere, but when he snatched MVP of U21 and got drafted people started to look at him as potential another great guard, at least some I know hoped for that. He became a very solid role player in the NT, even of of keys in his prime, but never became an elite guard. Anyway, taking whole picture into a matter, I agree that he's more of an underdog success story.

 

[Shawshank2]

From this angle, yes, he came a little bit out of nowhere, but when he snatched MVP of U21 and got drafted people started to look at him as potential another great guard, at least some I know hoped for that. He became a very solid role player in the NT, even of of keys in his prime, but never became an elite guard. Anyway, taking whole picture into a matter, I agree that he's more of an underdog success story.

Seibutis wasnt even considered as ltu youth material since he started beating lkl men.

Renaldas was cut like 3 first summers from NT and dint complain and later become starting 5 player played in Nt since literally he could run.

Thats shows strong character.

Like In Urbonusas podcast they are saying: Seibutis was like that little angry dog that would bite and stuborny never let go.Thats kind of defence he was playing with his 82kg.

That underdog had a nice career.

 

[Straight forward2]

Yeah, probably best personality in the NT ever His social skills shouldn't be underrated.

Speaking about defence, I watch Zal-Uve and I like Jokubaitis D, he also had some really strong performances in EL as well. In his prime he'll be solid guard at D. Marciulionis should be elite, nothing less. Then D. Giedraitis also is a guy who can bite his opponents as bulldog hell or high water and Velicka can be a good defender also. Defensively wise we might have best backcourt ever in mid 20's.

 

[Mindozas6]

21yo Jasikevicius was 12.4pts, 3.6as player for Maryland (NCAA)
21yo Kalnietis LKL 6,9pts, 3,5as (20min) Zalgiris.
21yo Seibutis 13.5pts for Maroussi (Greek league).
21yo Grigonis 9.7pts Manresa (ACB)
21yo Lekavicius Zalgiris 4.6pts (EL)

Looking from this angle. What does it make of Velicka who had 11.4pts/5,2as in LNB Pro A and now has something like 14pts/6as in Bundesliga. Isn't that he is basically the first 21yo since Macijauskas to play at such high PRO level? I mean French and Bundesliga surely tops NCAA, LKL, Greek League. Only Grigonis stats line looks really nice playing in ACB as 21yo and Lekavicius didn't entirely blew his chance (soft Zalgiris back then though). IMO, Velicka is ridiculously underrated. Not only he gets from little to none hype, but there's also some sort of hare and scepticism like he would be indepted to someone already or failed somewhere. This ridiculous Velicka is one of best guard prospects we ever had and somehow in Lithuania he only gets indifference or hate. And some Miklovas would say I would be "almost chocked to see Velicka in the NT one day" or something like that Like many times, even BB journalists can't have adequate picture of our prospects. Like they couldn't with Sirvydis also, who was almost the only youngster with such stats standing in the Eurocup.

Just for comparison, one of Liekabelis leaders Valinskas completely failed in French league last season, being 24yo.

Hepcat will like your mostly stats based opinion On serious note, you again forgot to put to analysis that Velicka plays(-ed) for bottom teams in these leagues and this fact alone purely theoretically puts him lower than any of your mentioned players. NCAA was great in 90s, Greek, Spanish leagues were also better. Not that it makes Miklovas right by any mean tho

 

[Straight forward2]

Hepcat will like your mostly stats based opinion On serious note, you again forgot to put to analysis that Velicka plays(-ed) for bottom teams in these leagues and this fact alone purely theoretically puts him lower than any of your mentioned players. NCAA was great in 90s, Greek, Spanish leagues were also better. Not that it makes Miklovas right by any mean tho

Sure, but my point probably is that Velicka is pretty much right there with best guards in comparison. In other words, far from every day we have a 21yo who could come to bundesliga and would be dropping 17, 19, 18 points instantly, even if his team is not the strongest (Seibutis team was 8th that season, Manresa also wasn't among better teams that season). Velicka shouldn't be overlooked, in other words.

 

[Hepcat2]

Speaking about defence, I watch Zal-Uve and I like Jokubaitis D, he also had some really strong performances in EL as well. In his prime he'll be solid guard at D. Marciulionis should be elite, nothing less. Then D. Giedraitis also is a guy who can bite his opponents as bulldog hell or high water and Velicka can be a good defender also. Defensively wise we might have best backcourt ever in mid 20's.

Hepcat will like your mostly stats based opinion

Well I certainly do hope that all four players Straight forward mentions in his post emerge as national team members and in some cases leaders by the 2024 Olympics. All I've indicated previously is that I don't think any of them are ready yet for this summer's team. Given the possibility of jammed fingers, sprained ankles, foul trouble, I'd not be comfortable with a bench that included any twenty year old twelfth men.

 

[Mindozas6]

Well I certainly do hope that all four players Straight forward mentions in his post emerge as national team members and in some cases leaders by the 2024 Olympics. All I've indicated previously is that I don't think any of them are ready yet for this summer's team. Given the possibility of jammed fingers, sprained ankles, foul trouble, I'd not be comfortable with a bench that included any twenty year old twelfth men.

Jokubaitis might be ready for bench. He tasted top level bball in Euroleague and that is the closest thing that can get you to international scene bball and Olympics. And he is not some deep bench player in Zalgiris. That's a huge advantage in his case. Also he looked good in that window game vs Czechs back in November. Not scared, not afraid of taking some shots, some responsibility. Even in his debut. All he lack is experience with NT jersey. He makes some wrong decisions, some forced shots and etc., but he has guts, big ones and that also what carries him higher is candidates list. So he is in discussion for sure, while Velicka is yet to be proven even as EL level player. He doesn't feel too comfortable with NT jersey yet. If older Kariniauskas already matured at least for such windows games, then Velicka can't carry the weight of it successfully, but he has tools to do that in future. He should get his chances in next cycle. Marciulionis is overall too raw to expect anything this year.
Regarding Jokubaitis, a lot will be clear in camps, if he will deal with pressure, his chances are really good to make final roster for OQT

 

[Hepcat2]

Jokubaitis ... is not some deep bench player in Zalgiris. That's a huge advantage in his case.

Yes, I've noticed that Jokubaitis has often been playing more than twenty minutes per game recently which is more than Lukas Lekavičius. That's certainly an argument in his favour.

Also he looked good in that window game vs Czechs back in November.

That would actually be the one played 24 February 2020 where he dished out 6 assists with a PER of 8 in 22:35 of play.

Jokubaitis might be ready for bench.

But once again, I hope no player is taken for Team Lietuva this summer that Coach Maskoliūnas would be afraid to send onto the floor during important moments.

 

[Mindozas6]

Yes, I've noticed that Jokubaitis has often been playing more than twenty minutes per game recently which is more than Lukas Lekavičius. That's certainly an argument in his favour.

Jokubaitis now is even a starter, since we have very thin SF position. We usually see Walkup, Grigonis and Jokubaitis in the starting 5 at backcourt, Jokubaitis even trying to defend against SFs. Lekavicius is the same energy booster from the bench

That would actually be the one played 24 February 2020 where he dished out 6 assists with a PER of 8 in 22:35 of play.

Yes, it is. Time flies

But once again, I hope no player is taken for Team Lietuva this summer that Coach Maskoliūnas would be afraid to send onto the floor during important moments.

Well, Jokubaitis has guts, he already proved that at the start of the season hitting game winning free throws in EL away game, being 1 point down. He isn't afraid to take responsibility. Anyway, NT shirt is heavier, importance and pressure will be enormous, even some veterans used to make silly mistakes in the important moments, so you can never know how young player will react and how well will cope with it. But if there's one to show some trust, then Jokubaitis is the name. The importance of tournament is too big for coach to take someone who doesn't deserve it and has no trust. As I wrote, camp will answer some questions too, how players will be ready not only physically, but psychologically also

 

[Straight forward2]

Velicka drops 16pts/6as against Bayern. Got a give credit for a guy for this dominant stretch This campaign of 21yo impresses me more than some Kariniauskas feasting in inferior LKL league compared to Bundesliga and LNB A. We have beast guard growing and he may reach true elite level. In last 4 games he drops 17,5pts and 6,7as.

 

[Mindozas6]

Velicka drops 16pts/6as against Bayern. Got a give credit for a guy for this dominant stretch This campaign of 21yo impresses me more than some Kariniauskas feasting in inferior LKL league compared to Bundesliga and LNB A. We have beast guard growing and he may reach true elite level. In last 4 games he drops 17,5pts and 6,7as.

The last time we saw Kariniauskas vs Velicka in indirect battle, was like one way traffic in Kariniauskas favor, so adding his name here doesn't help to praise Velicka at all, vice versa

 

[Straight forward2]

The last time we saw Kariniauskas vs Velicka in indirect battle, was like one way traffic in Kariniauskas favor, so adding his name here doesn't help to praise Velicka at all, vice versa

It doesn't spoil it either. It's fair comparison. Don't get me wrong I'm impressed with what Kariniauskas is doing, he transited to top 4 LKL team and his numbers didn't decline. He's balling. And he obviously much more matured and more ready mentally for the NT, but nevertheless it's a good question how he would survive in more quality leagues, how he would do in super physical LNB PRO A, would he be putting something like 12/6? Maybe yes, maybe not. With that said, Kariniauskas has an edge at the moment, no doubt, specially when it comes to the NT, he already been there and he looked very confident in FIBA windows (even though he disappeared a little bit in true crunch time against Denmark and we shouldn't really include Velicka into comparison this time, because he barely played and just burned out in that do or die game, I think previous FIBA windows reflect Velicka's status quo abilities better). But he's 27 and Velicka just turned 21.

I surely have Kariniauskas as a much more serious candidate to make 2021 OG team than Velicka, there's no single doubt about it, but at the same time let's not forget it was B Czech Rep NT and...Denmark that he was balling against. And the guy never actually played in strong league for years now. So we shall wait and see if he can provide against tougher defences at the higher level. Velicka at this point is in more convincing position at this point. There's no single doubt. One stands at 5th position other 6th in domestic leagues rankings (am I only who doesn't buy it that Italian Legabasket is at 4th spot? https://www.eurohoops.net/en/trademarks/1104253/domestic-leagues-top10-the-covid-season/) while LKL is 10th and somethimes it's ranked 11th. So it's like Velicka is balling in 2 times more competitive leagues. Sure, playing for top LKL teams is a strong argument, but however we look we didn't see Kariniauskas balling at really serious competition in years. IMO, he would do pretty good, but we have to see it first.

 

[Mindozas6]

Man, you don't have to downgrade Kariniauskas or LKL to make Velicka look better We know the leagues, the overall strength and etc. But you can't compare bottom German/French team to LKL top4 team. It's a pure guessing which one is better. While Denmark, Czechs mixed squad, yeah, not the greatest teams out there, but Kariniauskas delivered, Velicka didn't against the same rivals and yes we must include that Velicka burned out. That's exactly very important factor how player is ready mentally for big games. Karina looked more matured, more ready, showed some decent plays in important moments, even despite that missed floater. Velicka didn't play for a reason. Since you are comparing players now, age doesn't matter too. That's all we have now, in 5 years maybe we won't remember who is Kariniauskas, but today he has advantage

 

[Straight forward2]

Man, you don't have to downgrade Kariniauskas or LKL to make Velicka look better We know the leagues, the overall strength and etc. But you can't compare bottom German/French team to LKL top4 team. It's a pure guessing which one is better. While Denmark, Czechs mixed squad, yeah, not the greatest teams out there, but Kariniauskas delivered, Velicka didn't against the same rivals and yes we must include that Velicka burned out. That's exactly very important factor how player is ready mentally for big games. Karina looked more matured, more ready, showed some decent plays in important moments, even despite that missed floater. Velicka didn't play for a reason. Since you are comparing players now, age doesn't matter too. That's all we have now, in 5 years maybe we won't remember who is Kariniauskas, but today he has advantage

He surely has advantage, no doubt about it. Kariniauskas always didn't care in a good way and today his confidence is supreme. But I never downgraded LKL or Kariniauskas. LKL factually stand 10th while French and German league right there at 5/6spots. Current Velicka's team still has PO chances, it's not complete bottom team. But that's not important, my point is that Velicka was able to brake some of truly tough and athletic defences. You barely meet that kind of defence and physical presence in LKL. My point is that Kariniauskas might simply bump into much more tougher defence (or maybe not, but the fact is we don't have empirical data to judge). Actually, I'm anxiously waiting to see how he will look against some Zalgiris in LKL PO. When fresh Walkup will bite Kariniauskas' ass then he'll have a real test. If he will deliver big time then, it will be a big thing. To sum up, Kariniauskas at the given moment is a better player, we agree here, but since 21yo Velicka shows such promise in competitive leagues I'm more impressed about this occasion exactly than Kariniauskas feasting in LKL at his prime.

 

[Mindozas6]

He surely has advantage, no doubt about it. Kariniauskas always didn't care in a good way and today his confidence is supreme. But I never downgraded LKL or Kariniauskas. LKL factually stand 10th while French and German league right there at 5/6spots. Current Velicka's team still has PO chances, it's not complete bottom team. But that's not important, my point is that Velicka was able to brake some of truly tough and athletic defences. You barely meet that kind of defence and physical presence in LKL. My point is that Kariniauskas might simply bump into much more tougher defence (or maybe not, but the fact is we don't have empirical data to judge). Actually, I'm anxiously waiting to see how he will look against some Zalgiris in LKL PO. When fresh Walkup will bite Kariniauskas' ass then he'll have a real test. If he will deliver big time then, it will be a big thing. To sum up, Kariniauskas at the given moment is a better player, we agree here, but since 21yo Velicka shows such promise in competitive leagues I'm more impressed about this occasion exactly than Kariniauskas feasting in LKL at his prime.

Well, Bayern the same like Zalgiris fools around a bit in BBL regular season, rotates, prepares for EL, so you can't take that for granted either. It's nice to see good performances from LT players nonetheless. On other hand, also there's a proven fact for years that feasting in LKL lower caliber teams doesn't make you good enough even for Zalgiris or Rytas (in its best days) bench, at the same time for NT with best candidates. There were very rare cases when such moves worked out. Overall, both players has its limits now. Kariniauskas is better but with own ceiling either. I think now he could try himself in Eurocup, he is matured enough, but I don't think he would make it to Zalgiris, unless he will surprise again

 

[Straight forward2]

Agreed here. Kariniauskas should prove himself in Eurocup first cause if he would move to Zalgiris I'm afraid it would be just lightly less sad story of D. Sabeckis. We seen that even Dimsa didn't convince Schiller and I think Dimsa played in more competitive environment with Lietkabelis last season. We know that Jokubaitis can snatch a role in Zalgiris, he does that, I'm far from convinced that Kariniauskas could do that, more like I'm more sure that he wouldn't.

 

[Straight forward2]

I'm really high on what Augis can provide at D end. He is bullying here and there in LKL already, the way he sometimes eats alive some of best LKL guards is something, going for nasty steals. I had to check his stats at U16 (his age group) and I found it a stat which, IMO, inever matched by anyone form Liths. 20 steals in 7 games. 3 steals per game is a nasty stat. His dad had 3,1 steals per game in 1992 OG which is nothing but HUGE, but even Rooney did that in much more playing time. Augis was snatching 3 steals in 22min in U16. Now he has 1.1stl in 13min in LKL, that's underrated stat. F.e. Walkup is 1.2stl in 22min. Augis has literally the strongest, longest and quickest hands any other Lith prospect ever had, could be even better than his 18yo dad.

 

[Mindozas6]

Man, you just can't put Olympic stats and u16 stats into comparison no matter how you are hyped about the player That looks simply crazy to compare in any way. Ok that you try to find any angle to hype a player, but this goes a bit over the line Moreover the same way it looks unfair to say things like "we ever had", maybe "I ever saw" or smth like that would suit better. We had lot of amazing talents which we don't know much about or the ones who didn't make it. The same father Marciulionis was superior physically at this age, he was already physical beast with great motor

 

[Straight forward2]

Man, you just can't put Olympic stats and u16 stats into comparison no matter how you are hyped about the player That looks simply crazy to compare in any way. Ok that you try to find any angle to hype a player, but this goes a bit over the line Moreover the same way it looks unfair to say things like "we ever had", maybe "I ever saw" or smth like that would suit better. We had lot of amazing talents which we don't know much about or the ones who didn't make it. The same father Marciulionis was superior physically at this age, he was already physical beast with great motor

That wasn't the point to compare Augis' U16 with Rooney's 1992 campaign. The point was that it's extremely difficult to find 3 steals per game at any serious level, starting with U16 tournaments and ending up to OG. Lukauskis is the best all time ball hawk of LKL and he never had 3 steals per game, but was really close in couple of seasons. I mean the potential is here for Augustas to be special ball hawk and a great defensive guard, whenever it will happen I can't say, but chances are interesting. John Stockton is the best stealer ever of NBA. He has 3st per game and 3.2 as his best record. And he was playing 39min in that record season. Jason Kid is second and he has 2.3 record. At this point Rooney's 3.1st in OG is crazy number. 3st per game as that line when you are a BEAST defensively (if that PRO level). Pacer T.J.McConnell leading NBA this season with 2. U16 is not NBA and not OG obviously, I'm aware of that, but even if you would track down stats at this level, I doubt you will find a guy who would give you 3 steals in 22min, what Marciulionis did. This alone stat is very intriguing even from neutral stand point. Also, as I said, Marciulionis has Walkup's steals number playing lesser minutes in LKL. Not to say that Marciulionis now will be superstar defensive player, but let's agree that's intriguing.

PS: Euroleague's record is 2.9st by Ginobili in 2000/2001 season.
PS2: Seibutis has 1.6st as his best season in LKL.

 

[Straight forward2]

If Ludux won't show up with the stat line which beats Augustas U16 campaign, it doesn't exist