Kobe 24 vs MJ 23

[Khalid802]

Well if kobe wasnt that good. People wouldn't compare him to MJ all the time.

I am a kobe fan but i know that MJ is better but NOT that better like some try to put it.
And abt the MVP's, it doesn't identify a player. We all know that every year they pick a player based on a different criteria than the other year. Also Kareem won more MVPs that MJ.

Although Kb's and MJ's eras were a lot different. And kobe came in the league very young and was a bench player for 2 seasons and a starter in the 3rd season just bcoz others players were getting injured all the time.

Its tough to compare those 2 but till now MJ>Kobe and it might stay like this

MJ imo is still the best player to ever play the game. MJ epitomizes the true meaning of a champion. Here a few points why I believe so:
1) MJ has won 6 Championships with the Bulls while he was the leader of the team. Kobe has won 3 and he wasn't even the leader of the team (he was a co-leader at most alongside Shaq).
2) MJ is a better clutch shooter (I am sure he has scored more game winning shots than anyone else in the NBA). Kobe is still developing his skills at this.
3) MJ's presence has led to the improvement of all his teammates. If u remember last summer this time of year Kobe was bad mouthing the Lakers and considered Bynum as a joke (His attitude did change later after they got Gasol on the team, and Kobe actually started motivating and praising his teammates which is where many critics started comapring him more to MJ).
4) MJ's winning persistence. I still remember the game when MJ had a really high fever and he scored something like 35 points to help his team beat the Jazz in the playoffs. Pippen actually had to help MJ of the court cuz he was so exhausted. (U don't often see players like this, even though I do remember when Isiah Thomas severly injured his foot and he still played the game which was in the NBA finals as he was limping on court).
5) MJ's personality. Even though MJ did have a few bad habits (like gambling and having a few affairs, they're nothing compared to what happened with Kobe in Denver and his feud with Shaq).

As for Kobe here are a few positive points for him:
1) Kobe scoring 81 points aganist Toronto. Awesome perfomance by Kobe. I still remember watching the game live on tv and getting mesmorized by his amazing performance.
2) Kobe is still 29 (He will be turning 30 in like 10 days) so the guys still has like 5 years left where he can try to prove to everyone that he belongs with the elite class of players like MJ to ever play the game.

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

MJ imo is still the best player to ever play the game. MJ epitomizes the true meaning of a champion. Here a few points why I believe so:
1) MJ has won 6 Championships with the Bulls while he was the leader of the team. Kobe has won 3 and he wasn't even the leader of the team (he was a co-leader at most alongside Shaq).
2) MJ is a better clutch shooter (I am sure he has scored more game winning shots than anyone else in the NBA). Kobe is still developing his skills at this.
3) MJ's presence has led to the improvement of all his teammates. If u remember last summer this time of year Kobe was bad mouthing the Lakers and considered Bynum as a joke (His attitude did change later after they got Gasol on the team, and Kobe actually started motivating and praising his teammates which is where many critics started comapring him more to MJ).
4) MJ's winning persistence. I still remember the game when MJ had a really high fever and he scored something like 35 points to help his team beat the Jazz in the playoffs. Pippen actually had to help MJ of the court cuz he was so exhausted. (U don't often see players like this, even though I do remember when Isiah Thomas severly injured his foot and he still played the game which was in the NBA finals as he was limping on court).
5) MJ's personality. Even though MJ did have a few bad habits (like gambling and having a few affairs, they're nothing compared to what happened with Kobe in Denver and his feud with Shaq).

As for Kobe here are a few positive points for him:
1) Kobe scoring 81 points aganist Toronto. Awesome perfomance by Kobe. I still remember watching the game live on tv and getting mesmorized by his amazing performance.
2) Kobe is still 29 (He will be turning 30 in like 10 days) so the guys still has like 5 years left where he can try to prove to everyone that he belongs with the elite class of players like MJ to ever play the game.

let me discuss these pts 1 by 1

1) i didnt say anything that contradict this 1. i totally agree

2)u need stats to prove it. People tend to believe that MJ never missed a game winning while in fact he missed a lot. He might be better than kobe at this.

3) bullshit, no player ever made players around him better. u only become better by working hard on ur weaknesses. in fact, mj totally killed the 1st round pick of 2001 (kwame brown) by calling him names like "big pussy" they guy was 18 at the time.
also MJ bitched and moaned a lot abt the lack of talent around him but he did this in private, not in public like kobe. Also MJ punched a teammate hehe

4)1 game brilliance doesn't mean u r great. (although what mj did was awesome)
Do u remember willie burton who played here in LEB. he once scored 53pts, does that mean he is as good as guys like AI, or t-mac.


5) the rape never been proven. Plus u cant say gambling is a bad thing for MJ. he is a basketball not a priest. He can do anything not considered illegal and still be thought of as a good man. plus u can judge players by their performance not their personality. Its their personality hehe

abt kobe:

1)i watched it live too. its unforgettable. it was like 5am and it was raining heavily. i couldnt believe what am i seeing. but 1 great game doesnt mean
u r great (but kobe is great )

2) totally agree

 

[Khalid802]

let me discuss these pts 1 by 1

1) i didnt say anything that contradict this 1. i totally agree

2)u need stats to prove it. People tend to believe that MJ never missed a game winning while in fact he missed a lot. He might be better than kobe at this.

3) bullshit, no player ever made players around him better. u only become better by working hard on ur weaknesses. in fact, mj totally killed the 1st round pick of 2001 (kwame brown) by calling him names like "big pussy" they guy was 18 at the time.
also MJ bitched and moaned a lot abt the lack of talent around him but he did this in private, not in public like kobe. Also MJ punched a teammate hehe

4)1 game brilliance doesn't mean u r great. (although what mj did was awesome)
Do u remember willie burton who played here in LEB. he once scored 53pts, does that mean he is as good as guys like AI, or t-mac.


5) the rape never been proven. Plus u cant say gambling is a bad thing for MJ. he is a basketball not a priest. He can do anything not considered illegal and still be thought of as a good man. plus u can judge players by their performance not their personality. Its their personality hehe

abt kobe:

1)i watched it live too. its unforgettable. it was like 5am and it was raining heavily. i couldnt believe what am i seeing. but 1 great game doesnt mean
u r great (but kobe is great )

2) totally agree

Yeah ur right. I wish I could find stats to back me up concerning this point.
The MJ that I am talking about is the player that played between 1984-1998. If u want to consider the 2 years that MJ played with the Wizards then definitely Kobe is a better player (MJ was 38 years old at that time).
And MJ as a player is not the same as the GM. I consider MJ as one of the worst GM's ever and for him to select Kwame as the 1st pick for the Wizards was probably the worst decision he ever took as a GM.
As for the "1 game brilliance" it's not about the amount of points he scored, it's about the condition he was playing in. If it was another player who was this sick, they probably would have sat out the game.
U can't compare Willie Burton to AI or T-Mac even if the guy scores 100 points, simply cuz u can't compare the Lebanese league with the NBA (It's like comparing apples and bananas ).

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

Yeah ur right. I wish I could find stats to back me up concerning this point.
The MJ that I am talking about is the player that played between 1984-1998. If u want to consider the 2 years that MJ played with the Wizards then definitely Kobe is a better player (MJ was 38 years old at that time).
And MJ as a player is not the same as the GM. I consider MJ as one of the worst GM's ever and for him to select Kwame as the 1st pick for the Wizards was probably the worst decision he ever took as a GM.
As for the "1 game brilliance" it's not about the amount of points he scored, it's about the condition he was playing in. If it was another player who was this sick, they probably would have sat out the game.
U can't compare Willie Burton to AI or T-Mac even if the guy scores 100 points, simply cuz u can't compare the Lebanese league with the NBA (It's like comparing apples and bananas ).

willie burton scored 53pts in an nba game
thats why i gave this example to show that 1 game doesnt mean anything

but ya MJ's game with flu (playoffs also) is definitely awesome

 

[BorisD2]

I'm always amazed that this conversation keeps cropping up, and that people continue to do so. As others have pointed out, it's hardly fair to Kobe to compare him to Michael Jordan. It's an insult to Jordan, it's unfair to Kobe and it's degrading to the woman he raped. When you look at what MJ accomplished in his career to what Kobe has done so far with pace-adjusted metrics, you'll see that Jordan was more efficient and more productive across the entire spectrum of the game.

• Jordan's eFG% is considerably better than Kobe's, .509 vs. .486;
• Jordan assisted on roughly 24.9% of his teammates' field goals, whereas Kobe has only assisted on roughly 23.6% of his teammates' field goals;
• Jordan was a far better rebounder on both ends of the floor, grabbing 4.7% of all offensive rebounds available to him and 14.1% of defensive rebounds available to him over the course of his career (for a total rebound % of 9.4%), whereas Kobe has grabbed only 3.8% of offensive rebounds available to him, 12.6% of defensive rebounds available to him, and 8.2% of total rebounds available to him;
• Kobe turns the ball over on 11.6% of his possessions, MJ only turned it over on 9.3% of his possessions;
• MJ notched a steal on 3.1% of possessions faced, and blocked a shot on 1.4% of opponents' FGA; Kobe grabs a steal on only 2.2% of opponent possessions and blocks only 1.2% of shots taken by the opposition;
• MJ's career offensive rating (points produced per 100 individual possessions) is 118 with a usage rate of 33.3% (all-time highest in NBA history); Kobe's offensive rating for his career is 112 with the lower usage rate of 31.1%. In this regard Kobe lags significantly behind Michael Jordan;
• MJ's career defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions faced) is 103; Kobe's is 105, again, worse than Michael Jordan's.

Leaving aside Michael Jordan's legacy and what he meant to the game of basketball becoming a worldwide sport and Kobe's remarkable ability to annoy people on all continents, by no significant metric is Kobe as good as (let alone better than) Michael Jordan. Kobe is more a "rich man's Wince Carter" than a "poor man's Michael Jordan".

EDIT: all stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com.

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

I'm always amazed that this conversation keeps cropping up, and that people continue to do so. As others have pointed out, it's hardly fair to Kobe to compare him to Michael Jordan. It's an insult to Jordan, it's unfair to Kobe and it's degrading to the woman he raped. When you look at what MJ accomplished in his career to what Kobe has done so far with pace-adjusted metrics, you'll see that Jordan was more efficient and more productive across the entire spectrum of the game.

• Jordan's eFG% is considerably better than Kobe's, .509 vs. .486;
• Jordan assisted on roughly 24.9% of his teammates' field goals, whereas Kobe has only assisted on roughly 23.6% of his teammates' field goals;
• Jordan was a far better rebounder on both ends of the floor, grabbing 4.7% of all offensive rebounds available to him and 14.1% of defensive rebounds available to him over the course of his career (for a total rebound % of 9.4%), whereas Kobe has grabbed only 3.8% of offensive rebounds available to him, 12.6% of defensive rebounds available to him, and 8.2% of total rebounds available to him;
• Kobe turns the ball over on 11.6% of his possessions, MJ only turned it over on 9.3% of his possessions;
• MJ notched a steal on 3.1% of possessions faced, and blocked a shot on 1.4% of opponents' FGA; Kobe grabs a steal on only 2.2% of opponent possessions and blocks only 1.2% of shots taken by the opposition;
• MJ's career offensive rating (points produced per 100 individual possessions) is 118 with a usage rate of 33.3% (all-time highest in NBA history); Kobe's offensive rating for his career is 112 with the lower usage rate of 31.1%. In this regard Kobe lags significantly behind Michael Jordan;
• MJ's career defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions faced) is 103; Kobe's is 105, again, worse than Michael Jordan's.

Leaving aside Michael Jordan's legacy and what he meant to the game of basketball becoming a worldwide sport and Kobe's remarkable ability to annoy people on all continents, by no significant metric is Kobe as good as (let alone better than) Michael Jordan. Kobe is more a "rich man's Wince Carter" than a "poor man's Michael Jordan".

EDIT: all stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com.

I am glad you used some advanced stats but a part of your introduction is awful, where you said comparing Kobe to MJ is an insult to MJ.
Come on i am a kobe fan and i know that MJ is better but its not an insult.

Several of the stats you used shows that kobe is close but still MJ is better.

 

[BorisD2]

I am glad you used some advanced stats but a part of your introduction is awful, where you said comparing Kobe to MJ is an insult to MJ.
Come on i am a kobe fan and i know that MJ is better but its not an insult.

Several of the stats you used shows that kobe is close but still MJ is better.

I'm a Kobe fan too, but we need to be honest about his limits. I do think it is an insult to compare Kobe to Jordan in many ways. Firstly, there is no significant metric in which Kobe is superior to Jordan. I'd mention 3FG%, but that's not a significant metric and basically Kobe isn't anything to write home about either, yet keeps chucking them. If I were at work, and I wanted to compare myself to a co-worker to impress my boss, I wouldn't pick a guy who does literally everything better than I do.

The only stat that's "close" is block %. Jordan is considerably better in every other metric, including defensive rating - and MJ never had a great defensive big man behind him, Kobe obviously has. And without Shaq behind him, Kobe's defensive rating got a lot worse; when Pippen missed most of 1997-8, MJ's defensive rating got better. The bigger the challenge, the greater MJ got: the bigger Kobe's challenge, the more he whines about his teammates. (Great leadership there, Kobe. ) And let's keep offensive perspective: in Kobe's most efficient year offensively, he's only 1 pp100p more efficient than MJ was in his worst year prior to his ill-conceived return with Washington. Going back to the workplace analogy, do I look good if I'm only slightly better on my best day than my co-worker on his worst day? Probably not.

People honestly forget how great Jordan was. Kobe isn't anywhere near his league, as much as he's probably the best player in the league right now.

 

[pepman2]

I pick Michael Jordan!

He's really great and made the Bulls into the top of the world. He had everything every people wants in a basketball player.

And Kobe was just overrated. He was just successful because of Shaquille 'O Neal. But still, he proved something last season. He may be lame or gay, he's still great. I hope that Kobe will sore greater heights in the following seasons and decades...He still has a great future.

 

[Francis2]

Kobe my ass!

Kobe my ass!

Kobe doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as MJ. Nuff said!

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

I'm a Kobe fan too, but we need to be honest about his limits. I do think it is an insult to compare Kobe to Jordan in many ways. Firstly, there is no significant metric in which Kobe is superior to Jordan. I'd mention 3FG%, but that's not a significant metric and basically Kobe isn't anything to write home about either, yet keeps chucking them. If I were at work, and I wanted to compare myself to a co-worker to impress my boss, I wouldn't pick a guy who does literally everything better than I do.

The only stat that's "close" is block %. Jordan is considerably better in every other metric, including defensive rating - and MJ never had a great defensive big man behind him, Kobe obviously has. And without Shaq behind him, Kobe's defensive rating got a lot worse; when Pippen missed most of 1997-8, MJ's defensive rating got better. The bigger the challenge, the greater MJ got: the bigger Kobe's challenge, the more he whines about his teammates. (Great leadership there, Kobe. ) And let's keep offensive perspective: in Kobe's most efficient year offensively, he's only 1 pp100p more efficient than MJ was in his worst year prior to his ill-conceived return with Washington. Going back to the workplace analogy, do I look good if I'm only slightly better on my best day than my co-worker on his worst day? Probably not.

People honestly forget how great Jordan was. Kobe isn't anywhere near his league, as much as he's probably the best player in the league right now.

Leadership? what do you about it? kobe whined abt his teammates when he had the likes of smush, kwame, cook.... (MJ did too but he was smarter, he did it privately)

Remember last year when Bynum went down and Kwame was starting at C and he had 1 of the worst basketball games a player can have (against the suns i believe) and fans start booing kwame every time he touched the ball
what did kobe say? he said something like that kwame is our guy (at C) and
will be so for next 8 weeks (it was believed that bynum will be back in 8 weeks) and if they want boo him so they should have stayed home.
Isnt that a great leadership right there, supporting ur teammate (although he suck badly )

and goin back to stats you said:

"Jordan assisted on roughly 24.9% of his teammates' field goals, whereas Kobe has only assisted on roughly 23.6% of his teammates' field goals; "

do you believe there's a huge difference here?
what about kobe's % of this same category but as a starter?

 

[BorisD2]

Leadership? what do you about it? kobe whined abt his teammates when he had the likes of smush, kwame, cook.... (MJ did too but he was smarter, he did it privately)

Remember last year when Bynum went down and Kwame was starting at C and he had 1 of the worst basketball games a player can have (against the suns i believe) and fans start booing kwame every time he touched the ball
what did kobe say? he said something like that kwame is our guy (at C) and
will be so for next 8 weeks (it was believed that bynum will be back in 8 weeks) and if they want boo him so they should have stayed home.
Isnt that a great leadership right there, supporting ur teammate (although he suck badly )

and goin back to stats you said:

"Jordan assisted on roughly 24.9% of his teammates' field goals, whereas Kobe has only assisted on roughly 23.6% of his teammates' field goals; "

do you believe there's a huge difference here?
what about kobe's % of this same category but as a starter?

If you want to compare the sum total of Kobe's interaction with his teammates and MJ's, the scales aren't going to balance out, there...MJ belittled his teammates publicly, withdrew from, challenged, demanded they be traded (with them listening!) and occasionally even punched his teammates - but despite all those antics, he somehow managed to get the team together and showed real leadership through example more than just word. Let's not mention the more uplifting things he did for his teammates, let's leave it at the negative things and he's still a better teammate and leader than Kobe is. Kobe couldn't lead ants to a picnic. Yes, his occasional noble gesture (letting Turiaf appear in a viral video with him, half-hearted pleas to not pick on Kwame, etc) is appreciated, but he's not a leader and he's not nearly as willing to sacrifice his game for the sake of his teammates as Jordan was. And making videos in a parking lot berating Andrew Bynum? It's one thing to leave controversies in the locker room, but taking them public steps over a huge line.

And yes, statistically speaking a difference of 5% is considered to be statistically significant. And since .236 / .249 > 5%, it's a significant (if not overwhelming) difference. Michael Jordan was a better distributor than Kobe was - it's just another item on the list of things that MJ was significantly better than Kobe in. And what does Kobe do better, again...?

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

If you want to compare the sum total of Kobe's interaction with his teammates and MJ's, the scales aren't going to balance out, there...MJ belittled his teammates publicly, withdrew from, challenged, demanded they be traded (with them listening!) and occasionally even punched his teammates - but despite all those antics, he somehow managed to get the team together and showed real leadership through example more than just word. Let's not mention the more uplifting things he did for his teammates, let's leave it at the negative things and he's still a better teammate and leader than Kobe is. Kobe couldn't lead ants to a picnic. Yes, his occasional noble gesture (letting Turiaf appear in a viral video with him, half-hearted pleas to not pick on Kwame, etc) is appreciated, but he's not a leader and he's not nearly as willing to sacrifice his game for the sake of his teammates as Jordan was. And making videos in a parking lot berating Andrew Bynum? It's one thing to leave controversies in the locker room, but taking them public steps over a huge line.

And yes, statistically speaking a difference of 5% is considered to be statistically significant. And since .236 / .249 > 5%, it's a significant (if not overwhelming) difference. Michael Jordan was a better distributor than Kobe was - it's just another item on the list of things that MJ was significantly better than Kobe in. And what does Kobe do better, again...?

MJ is indeed a better leader but not a better teammate. People try to make MJ look like the perfect teammate but he is far from that. whats worse than punching a teammate?

Concerning your last paragraph, im shocked i thought ur beter at math,

24.9 minus 23.6 is 1.3% which is much less than 5% and you still didn't answer whats kobe's % as a starter?

 

[BorisD2]

MJ is indeed a better leader but not a better teammate. People try to make MJ look like the perfect teammate but he is far from that. whats worse than punching a teammate?

Concerning your last paragraph, im shocked i thought ur beter at math,

24.9 minus 23.6 is 1.3% which is much less than 5% and you still didn't answer whats kobe's % as a starter?

If you're just looking at a straight differential, yes, MJ's AST% was 1.3% greater than Kobe's. Expressed as a percentage of MJ's AST%, Kobe's is < 95% of MJ's - that was my point. (And don't insult my knowledge of math, I've done a ton of work with efficiency metrics on a number of forums...)

As a starter, Kobe's AST% is still lower than MJ's: 24.5% vs. 24.9%. So even taking just his best years, Kobe is still a poorer distributor than Michael Jordan. Factor in the turnovers and now it isn't even close...

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

If you're just looking at a straight differential, yes, MJ's AST% was 1.3% greater than Kobe's. Expressed as a percentage of MJ's AST%, Kobe's is < 95% of MJ's - that was my point. (And don't insult my knowledge of math, I've done a ton of work with efficiency metrics on a number of forums...)

As a starter, Kobe's AST% is still lower than MJ's: 24.5% vs. 24.9%. So even taking just his best years, Kobe is still a poorer distributor than Michael Jordan. Factor in the turnovers and now it isn't even close...

Its not abt taking the best years. Kobe was an extremely young bench player on a good team. thats why his averages are affected so badly.

His career ppg is something like 24, without his first 3 years its like 28.5ppg


24.5 of 24.9 is like 98.4 % is thats extremely close.

Kobe can seriously become 1 of the top 10 players ever (1 or 2 ranks better or worse) and to compare him with the the best or 2nd best player ever is NOT an insult whatsoever.

 

[icthus222]

MICHAEL JORDAN... hands down... it's not even close!

 

[Saskibaloia2]

MICHAEL JORDAN... hands down... it's not even close!

That's it!!!

I just don't get it with some people... comparing Kobe with Jordan is the equivalent of comparing a Proton to a Mercedes Benz. Kobe does not even belong in the top ten of all time. Sure enough he guy has won 3 championship but that is through the riding on someone's back as well as having the greatest coach in the history of the NBA well at least one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA.

 

[Charbel Sakr2]

That's it!!!

I just don't get it with some people... comparing Kobe with Jordan is the equivalent of comparing a Proton to a Mercedes Benz. Kobe does not even belong in the top ten of all time. Sure enough he guy has won 3 championship but that is through the riding on someone's back as well as having the greatest coach in the history of the NBA well at least one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA.

How can someone at the age of 30 and after 60 years of NBA (which means many great players have already played their whole career) be a top 10 player of all time?

we must wait till his career is done.

and some of the greatest players ever arent considered top 10.

 

[RetiredJordanStopper2]

That's it!!!

I just don't get it with some people... comparing Kobe with Jordan is the equivalent of comparing a Proton to a Mercedes Benz. Kobe does not even belong in the top ten of all time. Sure enough he guy has won 3 championship but that is through the riding on someone's back as well as having the greatest coach in the history of the NBA well at least one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA.

what's a proton?