Greatest players you ever saw.

[usagre2]

Here’s my ranking of the greatest players I ever saw since I started following basketball around 1982 at 10-11 years old.

1) Michael Jordan ‘89-‘93
2) LeBron James. ‘12-present
3) Magic Johnson. ‘87-‘90
4) Larry Bird. ‘84-‘87
5) Hakeem Olajuwon ‘93-‘96
6) Shaquille O’Neal. ‘00-‘03
7) Kobe Bryant. ‘06-‘10
8) Tim Duncan. ‘99-‘05
9). Moses Malone. ‘81-‘85
10) Kevin Durant. Current

Just missing out are current Steph Curry, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, early 90’s Charles Barkley and maybe late ‘80’s
Isiah Thomas.

I won’t include Dr J and Kareem because they were still really good up until mid ‘80’s but not remotely close to what they were in the late ‘70’s and 1980 which was before my time.

 

[Erkan122]

1-) Jordan
2-) Kobe
3-) Lebron
4-) Durant
5-) Magic
6-) Bird
7-) Hakeem
Kawhi
9-) Curry
10-) Nowitzki

First 3 for me is solid, I can change my mind for the rest.

 

[usagre2]

1-) Jordan
2-) Kobe
3-) Lebron
4-) Durant
5-) Magic
6-) Bird
7-) Hakeem
Kawhi
9-) Curry
10-) Nowitzki

First 3 for me is solid, I can change my mind for the rest.

I see you’re around the same age as me or you spent countless hours on YouTube trying to watch vintage games.
These lists are obviously objective but like I said anyone who thinks a Kobe was a better player than LeBron either has an agenda or is completely clueless. I can’t think of one single rational argument to make that claim. And Durant better than Magic or Larry is not worthy of discussion as well.

 

[Erkan122]

It's a subjective list. We can argue about it all day. If I have to give references;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8izt3RjwAo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk9Q76v6CvI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E34M3O1PX0E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp43UYKquLM

As for Durant, yeah you maybe right, I need to watch full series of this current final to decide it. If Durant isn't going to play like the last final, then I would put him behind.

 

[usagre2]

It's a subjective list. We can argue about it all day. If I have to give references;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8izt3RjwAo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk9Q76v6CvI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E34M3O1PX0E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp43UYKquLM

Like I said people with agendas. Is this my friend Tevflik in disguise ?
I am having Deja vu over here.

To take some of the subjectivity out of it here are some facts.
1) for most of Kobe's titles he was second bannana to Shaq.
LeBron was not.
2) Right smack in the middle of his prime for three years Kobe was either bounced in the first round or in the NBA lottery.

3) Kobe was a league MVP once in his life.
LeBron 4x

4) LeBron was about as good as you can be and super clutch in his two game 7 NBA finals.
Kobe was atrocious in his.

Then you can use your eyes and see what each player brings and contributes to their team.

 

[Erkan122]

Who?

I've registered here in 09.2017 , don't know the rest.

C'mon now, Kobe won several games before even the final when Shaq underperformed on some of the playoff games, he even won several playoff games without Shaq. It's saying like Iguodala is a better player than Curry since he was the finals MVP in 2015 not Curry. (not saying Iguodala was worse, no one carried each other)

Listen what Shaq says ; ''My fourth time in the NBA finals, THANKS TO THAT MAN.''

https://youtu.be/FfF_yUtoPYY?t=1194

Don't tell me Lebron went to Miami for fun. I am not arguing who carried each other, D-Wade and C.Bosh were on their prime when he won 2 championships with Miami. And even Ray Allen in the second one made the critical shots in 2013.

Kyrie Irving in 2016, he is a superstar. Kevin Love is an All-star. Lebron had that kind of helps in every championship.

Kobe is an all-star for 18 seasons. 2 times scoring champion. 15 times all NBA team. And he has 2 more rings than Lebron.

 

[usagre2]

Again I am not saying Kobe didn't contribute to those three titles but again there is a difference between being the undisputed most important piece like LeBron was in all three of his titles and being second bannana. The Iguodala comparison is dumb because that's one occasion and a short series. Shaq was the key guy in all three of those titles because he finished higher than Kobe all three years in the MVP voting. Top 3 finishes for all three seasons and none for Kobe.
And you couple that with being Finals MVP all three times not just once and you have your answer.
And yes LeBron went to Miami to be surrounded be good players because it was obvious that wasn't going to happen in Cleveland. Look at his teammates his first 7 years.

 

[CHBB2]

This is a really good question.

MJ I only saw from his second three-peat on, and I didn't watch much basketball outside the Sixers when Duncan was at his best.

My list is...

Jordan
LeBron in mid-late 00s (honestly I'd probably put him at 1)
Kawhi in '16-17
Steph in '15-16
Dirk in 2011
Penny
Vinsanity before the jumper's knee
Giannis
Russ
Shaq
Anthony Davis
Cousins (Both for the past few years)
Grant in Detroit
C-Webb in Washington
IT in Boston
Prime Rose
Kemba
Embiid at times
Kobe at times
CP3 in New Orleans

I know I'm forgetting some people. It's hard to narrow it down when there are so many different reasons a player impresses me. I want to include Mashburn and TMac in Orlando here but I don't know...

 

[Erkan122]

Again I am not saying Kobe didn't contribute to those three titles but again there is a difference between being the undisputed most important piece like LeBron was in all three of his titles and being second bannana. The Iguodala comparison is dumb because that's one occasion and a short series. Shaq was the key guy in all three of those titles because he finished higher than Kobe all three years in the MVP voting. Top 3 finishes for all three seasons and none for Kobe.
And you couple that with being Finals MVP all three times not just once and you have your answer.
And yes LeBron went to Miami to be surrounded be good players because it was obvious that wasn't going to happen in Cleveland. Look at his teammates his first 7 years.

Can you tell me;

2012/2013 Miami without Lebron
2009/2010 Lakers without Kobe

Which teams are better?

 

[CHBB2]

Can you tell me;

2012/2013 Miami without Lebron
2009/2010 Lakers without Kobe

Which teams are better?

They're completely different teams.

Miami had more scoring but the Lakers had more size and better defense. So overall, it's the Lakers. Who, let me remind you, barely won.

 

[usagre2]

Can you tell me;

2012/2013 Miami without Lebron
2009/2010 Lakers without Kobe

Which teams are better?

It's irrelevant since neither team is winning anything without them. Small sample size but Lakers were 6-3 while Heat were 6-4 when they didn’t play in those years.
But don't forget the level of competition.
Beating Orlando and an aging Boston or Oklahoma City and the Spurs is not the same thing. Not to mention 2016 which you conveniently didn’t in which the opposition was a defending champion who had just won the most games in the history of the league.
And Pau Gasol in 2009-2011 was better than Bosh and Wade 2012-13 and probably the best big man in the game in those years. And let’s not even mention who those teams were coached by. Big difference in quality there.

And if you want to go that route try doing it with Michael Jordan’s teams. We actually saw it in 1994 when Jordan went to play baseball or gamble or whatever he was doing and his team won 55 games, and lost a very controversial 7 game series to my Knicks.
They could have very easily been in the Finals that year without Jordan.

 

[usagre2]

Some more statistics to quantify the LeBron Kobe debate. Kobe has 13 career 40 point playoff games while LeBron has more than double that. And scoring is Kobe’s bread and butter I won’t even mention the disparity in double digit assist games or rebound games because any debate then gets even more absurd. If you are being fair and objective like I said earlier I can see no way you can rate Kobe a better player than LeBron.

 

[CHBB2]

Perimeter shooting is literally the only argument that can be made, and I have a feeling it's where every "LeBron isn't as good as..." argument comes from. Jordan, Kobe, Steph, now this KD nonsense...

Kawhi Leonard and Giannis are literally the only two players you can genuinely say come close. Though imo Jaylen Brown is not that far from being on the level of those two. But nowhere near being on LeBron's level.

And none of the arguments you can make for players being anywhere near him include guys who facilitate like he does. Nobody else has pretty much ever had everything he does as a player.

 

[usagre2]

Perimeter shooting is literally the only argument that can be made, and I have a feeling it's where every "LeBron isn't as good as..." argument comes from. Jordan, Kobe, Steph, now this KD nonsense...

Yeah maybe a little better but both are streaky and Lebron seems to be improving. But that’s not nearly enough to rate him better.

 

[usagre2]

I want to thank Erkan and CHBB for engaging me in some conversation as I am out of commission and resting all day from minor surgery. Not as minor as Kyrie’s nose job but minor nonetheless. It has helped me get through the day.

 

[CHBB2]

Yeah maybe a little better but both are streaky and Lebron seems to be improving. But that’s not nearly enough to rate him better.

And people seem to conveniently forget that his shooting dipped his last year or so in Cleveland because his body changed and he couldn't really be that G/F anymore. He was still adapting to it almost the entire time he was in Miami, and doing so with a selfish teammate.

And lol no problem. Hope you have a speedy recovery. Had a few nagging injuries in my life but no surgery so far luckily *knocks on wood*

 

[usagre2]

Can you tell me;

2012/2013 Miami without Lebron
2009/2010 Lakers without Kobe

Which teams are better?

Upon further review here are the numbers and you tell me.

Heat ‘12-13 key players playoff numbers

Wade. 19.4-4.9-4.6
Bosh. 12.8-7.5-1.1. (Also missed many games due to injury)
Chalmers 10.3-3.0-3.5
Ray Allen only ‘13. 10.2-2.8-1.3

‘09-‘10 Lakers

Pau Gasol. 18.9-11.0-3.0
Lamar Odom 11.0-8.9-1.9
Ron Artest. ‘10 only. 11.2-4.0-2.1
Trevor Ariza. ‘09 only. 11.3-4.2-2.3
Fisher. 9.2-2.3-2.5

And game 7 is also interesting to look at.

Kobe was awful going 6-24 including 0-6 from three and had 23-15-2 and was bailed out by late big shots by Artest
Who had 20 points and Gasol had 19 points and 18 rebounds.

LeBron was brilliant in game 7 going for 37-12-4 and shooting 5 threes.
Wade stepped up for support and had a good game going for 23 and 10 and Battier as well but Bosh and Ray Allen who hit the big shot in game 6 were invisible with a combined 0 points.

 

[Erkan122]

Upon further review here are the numbers and you tell me.

Heat ‘12-13 key players playoff numbers

Wade. 19.4-4.9-4.6
Bosh. 12.8-7.5-1.1. (Also missed many games due to injury)
Chalmers 10.3-3.0-3.5
Ray Allen only ‘13. 10.2-2.8-1.3

The only weak link in this is list is probably Chalmers, and even he was selected to all-rookie team in 2009.

Ray Allen ; 10 times all-star, 2 times all-nba team, and a hall of fame.
Chris Bosh ; 11 times all-star and 1 time all-nba team.
D-Wade; 12 times all-star, 1 time scoring champ, 3 times all defensive team, 8 times all-nba team ; a.k.a Superstar.
You forgot Shane Battier, who was a 2 times all-defensive nba.
And Mike Miller? 1 time best 6.man in nba.

‘09-‘10 Lakers

Pau Gasol. 18.9-11.0-3.0
Lamar Odom 11.0-8.9-1.9
Ron Artest. ‘10 only. 11.2-4.0-2.1
Trevor Ariza. ‘09 only. 11.3-4.2-2.3
Fisher. 9.2-2.3-2.5
.

Ron Artest ; 1 time all-star, 4 time all-defensive team, 1 time all-nba team
Fisher; despite being extremely useful ; 0 all-star appearence or any scaling through the nba, not even a single all-defensive team line-up.
Ariza; same. No all-star appearance or any award.
Odom; 1 time best 6.man in nba. That's all.
Pau Gasol; 6 times all-star, 4 times all-nba

The only star who could actually take place in Miami was Gasol, other than that Miami was way better than Lakers overall.

 

[usagre2]

The only weak link in this is list is probably Chalmers, and even he was selected to all-rookie team in 2009.

Ray Allen ; 10 times all-star, 2 times all-nba team, and a hall of fame.
Chris Bosh ; 11 times all-star and 1 time all-nba team.
D-Wade; 12 times all-star, 1 time scoring champ, 3 times all defensive team, 8 times all-nba team ; a.k.a Superstar.
You forgot Shane Battier, who was a 2 times all-defensive nba.
And Mike Miller? 1 time best 6.man in nba.



Ron Artest ; 1 time all-star, 4 time all-defensive team, 1 time all-nba team
Fisher; despite being extremely useful ; 0 all-star appearence or any scaling through the nba, not even a single all-defensive team line-up.
Ariza; same. No all-star appearance or any award.
Odom; 1 time best 6.man in nba. That's all.
Pau Gasol; 6 times all-star, 4 times all-nba

The only star who could actually take place in Miami was Gasol, other than that Miami was way better than Lakers overall.

You are being extremely misleading by giving me their career accomplishments and resumes. It’s who they were those years and how they played that is relevant. Dwyane Wade 2012-2013 is not superstar Dwyane Wade from earlier in his career. Bosh was at his best in Toronto when he was the first scoring option and was exposed as a limited player when he became the third option and was forced to do other things. Ray Allen was a year away from retirement. Mike Miller ? He was pretty much a non-factor on those teams. And like I stated earlier Pau Gasol was in his prime and arguably the best big in the game during those years. So yeah on paper if you stack up career resumes it looks lopsided but reality tells a different story. It’s like saying LeBron had help in his fist Cav tenure because he played with Shaq. Or the 2004 Lakers were the greatest team ever assembled because they had Karl Malone and Gary Payton. It doesn’t work that way.

If I am drafting out of those guys at that time, again at that time being critical to what we are discussing here,

Pau is number one, then
2- Wade
3- Bosh
4- Odom
5- Artest

Then after that you are talking a lot lower quality.

 

[CHBB2]

Bynum alone makes this argument moot. He and perimeter defense was the difference between the loss in '08 and the back-to-back wins in '09-10.