Grade your team (EL2022/23)

[Levenspiel2]

Well, it's quite easy for me, it's a resounding F, but I wonder how everyone rates their (or other) teams. Feel free to include the players & coaches, too.

Does Fener get a pass? Maccabi?
Does Z. Obradovic get an A? What about Calathes and Teo?

 

[MikeMaccabiFan2]

Well. Maccabi is surely not failure, I give it about 7 out of 10 overall. Kattash gets 5 out of 10, i.e. barely passable. Yes, we had very good April, but previous months and May were mixed quality. And we had too much unnecessary losses, which were on him. With home court advantage we would be in F4.
Team itself - Baldwin was 9 out of 10, Lorenzo 8 (he was exhausted - a) too much minutes played, b) he started with Spanish NT and it is gonna happen this Summer too...), Bonzie, Sorkin, Nebo and Diba - 8. Hilliard, Martin, Cohen - 7. Poythress - 6 (didn't have much time to play...) Menko, Ziv - 4, Braimo - 0. Adams - 5, Hollins - no score...

 

[ronmercer802]

Well. Maccabi is surely not failure, I give it about 7 out of 10 overall. Kattash gets 5 out of 10, i.e. barely passable. Yes, we had very good April, but previous months and May were mixed quality. And we had too much unnecessary losses, which were on him. With home court advantage we would be in F4.
Team itself - Baldwin was 9 out of 10, Lorenzo 8 (he was exhausted - a) too much minutes played, b) he started with Spanish NT and it is gonna happen this Summer too...), Bonzie, Sorkin, Nebo and Diba - 8. Hilliard, Martin, Cohen - 7. Poythress - 6 (didn't have much time to play...) Menko, Ziv - 4, Braimo - 0. Adams - 5, Hollins - no score...

I can agree with almost everything. Katash 5 or even less if he doesn't win the championship otherwise I give him a generous 6,5. Hilliard 5, lack of reliability. Nebo 6, not more.

 

[paspalj2]

It depends if it’s a grade against the rest of the teams or a grade against the expectations in the beginning of the year.

If it’s the first then we certainly get an F. If it’s the second then I’d say we are closer to a C.

I think that the teams at the top grade are Real, Oly, and Monaco with A+ (for different reasons each).

Maybe an A, A- for Partizan and Zalgiris for exceeding expectations?

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Baskonia ended up much higher than what people thought they would. For that I would also give them a A-, B+.

I’m confused now. Also, a lenient grader

 

[Levenspiel2]

It depends if it’s a grade against the rest of the teams or a grade against the expectations in the beginning of the year.

If it’s the first then we certainly get an F. If it’s the second then I’d say we are closer to a C.

I think that the teams at the top grade are Real, Oly, and Monaco with A+ (for different reasons each).

Maybe an A, A- for Partizan and Zalgiris for exceeding expectations?

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Baskonia ended up much higher than what people thought they would. For that I would also give them a A-, B+.

I’m confused now. Also, a lenient grader

you sound like you have some experience in grading

I thought of grading teams based on the expectations, and individuals based on how they objectively fared. Efes gets an A, but E. Bryant gets a B+ for example.

you are right obout Baskonia. We always underrate them, and they always surprise us, and Jonga comes here to remind us all. it's a tradition by now

 

[tonia2]

It's also easy for me to grade my team, clearly an F. I didn't expect (just hoped about) top-8, but I was sure that we would have a better season than last year, having Grigonis and Ponitka in the team.
I give an 8 to Mantzoukas, a 7 to Lee, Gudaitis and Ponitka, a 6 to Papagiannis and a free pass to Grigonis, considering the situation with our "beloved" ex coach (I graded them based on what I expected from them). I'm a little confused about Bacon's grade. Since I blame Radonjic that the team played without systems, I'll give Bacon a 7 for his individual game.

 

[Jazz2]

A few weeks ago there was some discussion on here about Virtus Bologna and radallo was saying that they were performing as expected for their roster. That was a fair point but the issue is that this team is greatly underperforming considering how high their budget is. Their two big signings didn't work out. Shengelia hasn't delivered to the level that they must have been hoping for and Lundberg isn't even on their roster for the Italian playoffs.
For some reason Scariolo's reputation is better than ever, despite presiding over a clearly underwhelming season with a big budget team.
It is still a joy watching Teodosic and Belinelli operating at Euroleague level and without them Virtus would have been battling ASVEL at the bottom of the standings. Those two legends deserve a B grade for their seasons but Virtus overall were D calibre.


As for Calathes, his season deserves a solid B grade. He lead his new team to one game away from the Final 4 which was an incredible achievement considering they were such a new team and taking into account the sheer quality of the Olympiacos squad they faced in the playoffs. Calathes remains a terrific leader and point guard and he quietly shot 33.6% from behind the arc.

 

[Nemanja952]

Between 1 and 10, I would rate Partizan's season 8, Obradovic 9, Lessort and Punter 9, Exum 8, Nunnally 8, LeDay7, Smailagic 7, Madar 7, Avramovic 7,Pappapetrou 6, Andjusic 5, Trifunovic 5, Koprivica 5, Vukcevic 5.

 

[Killer Bob2]

A few weeks ago there was some discussion on here about Virtus Bologna and radallo was saying that they were performing as expected for their roster. That was a fair point but the issue is that this team is greatly underperforming considering how high their budget is. Their two big signings didn't work out. Shengelia hasn't delivered to the level that they must have been hoping for and Lundberg isn't even on their roster for the Italian playoffs.
For some reason Scariolo's reputation is better than ever, despite presiding over a clearly underwhelming season with a big budget team.
It is still a joy watching Teodosic and Belinelli operating at Euroleague level and without them Virtus would have been battling ASVEL at the bottom of the standings. Those two legends deserve a B grade for their seasons but Virtus overall were D calibre.


As for Calathes, his season deserves a solid B grade. He lead his new team to one game away from the Final 4 which was an incredible achievement considering they were such a new team and taking into account the sheer quality of the Olympiacos squad they faced in the playoffs. Calathes remains a terrific leader and point guard and he quietly shot 33.6% from behind the arc.

He lead his team?

This leader had 'incredible' numbers in playoffs, 6/2/3 with catastrophic efficiency, PIR 4. What a leader! And the most baffling thing is that he has got 2 mio for that.

 

[Jazz2]

He lead his team?

This leader had 'incredible' numbers in playoffs, 6/2/3 with catastrophic efficiency, PIR 4. What a leader! And the most baffling thing is that he has got 2 mio for that.

It's a lucrative contract but there aren't many PGs in Europe with his particular skillset. Those averages are certainly modest but the important thing is that his team was winning and were just one win away from the Final Four. They were matched up against the best team in the regular season and didn't have home court advantage. For a team with a new coach and so many new players, that is a more than respectable season. Plus, Barca swapped him for another PG and weren't any more successful than in the previous two campaigns.

 

[Killer Bob2]

It's a lucrative contract but there aren't many PGs in Europe with his particular skillset. Those averages are certainly modest but the important thing is that his team was winning and were just one win away from the Final Four. They were matched up against the best team in the regular season and didn't have home court advantage. For a team with a new coach and so many new players, that is a more than respectable season. Plus, Barca swapped him for another PG and weren't any more successful than in the previous two campaigns.

Something doesn't add up. You're saying he lead the team and admit that his numbers were modest. He was leading his team playing modestly?

His team was 1 game away from the F4 despite having him, not because of him. Just imagine, what would have happened, if 2 mio player was playing like his contract suggests? Let's say 12/3/6 with good efficiency. They might have won everything.

 

[Jazz2]

Something doesn't add up. You're saying he lead the team and admit that his numbers were modest. He was leading his team playing modestly?

His team was 1 game away from the F4 despite having him, not because of him. Just imagine, what would have happened, if 2 mio player was playing like his contract suggests? Let's say 12/3/6 with good efficiency. They might have won everything.

As a PG his job is to get the ball to the right player at the right time, to make sure the ball moves and to get his team-mates involved. A quality PG and leader puts the team first, not their individual stats. Those modest numbers don't matter so much considering the team was so competitive under his leadership.

And if your barometer is qualification for the F4, well he achieved that in the previous two seasons.

 

[Killer Bob2]

As a PG his job is to get the ball to the right player at the right time, to make sure the ball moves and to get his team-mates involved. A quality PG and leader puts the team first, not their individual stats. Those modest numbers don't matter so much considering the team was so competitive under his leadership.

And if your barometer is qualification for the F4, well he achieved that in the previous two seasons.

My guess is that you have never played any kind of basketball.

You might ask yourself, why a player with 39% for 2 and 30% for 3 has taken a single shot in playoffs instead of just moving the ball and getting more efficient teammates involved? That's would in theory be the most efficient solution for a Pg, who can't shoot, unfortunately basketball doesn't work like that, especially the modern one. If you can't shoot, you're total liability no matter how good Pg you're, because no one will defend you and you will make life miserable for your teammates, who you should feed with open shots. Non shooting Pgs are extinct.

 

[Jazz2]

My guess is that you have never played any kind of basketball.

You might ask yourself, why a player with 39% for 2 and 30% for 3 has taken a single shot in playoffs instead of just moving the ball and getting more efficient teammates involved? That's would in theory be the most efficient solution for a Pg, who can't shoot, unfortunately basketball doesn't work like that, especially the modern one. If you can't shoot, you're total liability no matter how good Pg you're, because no one will defend you and you will make life miserable for your teammates, who you should feed with open shots. Non shooting Pgs are extinct.

You've had an agenda against this player for years and thus you keep adjusting the standards to judge him by. When he was not qualifying for the F4 with PAO you wrote that Calathes was "unplayable" in the playoffs. Then he moves to Barca and qualifies for back to back Final 4's. Subsequently, Barca scapegoat him for them not winning the entire competition so he leaves and joins Fener who improve dramatically. Strangely Barca haven't improved without him...

Btw, this extinct non shooting PG was on the floor when Barca completely outplayed Real in the 2021 ACB finals. Let's just sweep that painful memory for you under the carpet along with everything else that doesn't suit your narratives.
Clearly his shooting has been an issue, especially in late game scenarios, but he offers too much as a player to be written off on that alone. Itoudis appears to agree.

 

[Killer Bob2]

You've had an agenda against this player for years and thus you keep adjusting the standards to judge him by. When he was not qualifying for the F4 with PAO you wrote that Calathes was "unplayable" in the playoffs. Then he moves to Barca and qualifies for back to back Final 4's. Subsequently, Barca scapegoat him for them not winning the entire competition so he leaves and joins Fener who improve dramatically. Strangely Barca haven't improved without him...

Btw, this extinct non shooting PG was on the floor when Barca completely outplayed Real in the 2021 ACB finals. Let's just sweep that painful memory for you under the carpet along with everything else that doesn't suit your narratives.
Clearly his shooting has been an issue, especially in late game scenarios, but he offers too much as a player to be written off on that alone. Itoudis appears to agree.

Like I said, it seems you don't have a clue. Calathes was not good enough to make playoffs as the leader of the team. Pao was 1/12 in playoffs, when this non shooting Pg lead the team. He was nowhere near to a leader in Barca. And he didn't join Fener by his free will. He was sacked by Saras while still having valid contract. I would trust Saras' opinion a little bit more than yours. Itoudis is understanding Calathes' value for sure and will act accordingly in next season. Calathes has a contract for 1 more year, it should be fun.

 

[MikeMaccabiFan2]

I take Lorenzo Brown any day over Calathes. And he gets paid quite a bit less, unfortunately (even though new contract is better).

 

[Jazz2]

Like I said, it seems you don't have a clue. Calathes was not good enough to make playoffs as the leader of the team. Pao was 1/12 in playoffs, when this non shooting Pg lead the team. He was nowhere near to a leader in Barca. And he didn't join Fener by his free will. He was sacked by Saras while still having valid contract. I would trust Saras' opinion a little bit more than yours. Itoudis is understanding Calathes' value for sure and will act accordingly in next season. Calathes has a contract for 1 more year, it should be fun.

It's an inconsistent way to judge a player, blaming them for every defeat and giving them no credit in victory. You are describing Calathes as a "total liability" and "unplayable in the playoffs" when there's obvious evidence to the contrary.

If he wasn't considered one of the leaders in Barca then why was he made the scapegoat when they didn't win the Euroleague title?

Itoudis was well aware of Calathes' limitations before he signed him but they are having a very solid season with him as their PG. Have you checked the result of the Fener - Efes game played last night?

 

[Killer Bob2]

It's an inconsistent way to judge a player, blaming them for every defeat and giving them no credit in victory. You are describing Calathes as a "total liability" and "unplayable in the playoffs" when there's obvious evidence to the contrary.

If he wasn't considered one of the leaders in Barca then why was he made the scapegoat when they didn't win the Euroleague title?

Itoudis was well aware of Calathes' limitations before he signed him but they are having a very solid season with him as their PG. Have you checked the result of the Fener - Efes game played last night?

You want more detailed answer? No problem.

He as leader wasn't been able to bring more than 1 win in 4 playoffs for Pao. 1/12 total score. 2 times with home court advantage and having pretty good team.

1st playoffs against Baskonia, he averaged 5/3.7/6.7; 0% for 3( 0/9). This's as bad as it can get from the leader.

2nd playoffs against Fener with home court advantage 6/3/4; 33% for 2 and 11% for 3(1:9). Even bigger disaster than year 1. Especially if we know how true leader in Fener looked. So first 2 playoffs 1/18 for 3. That makes him probably the worst leader of his team in playoffs history in 2 consecutive years.

3rd playoffs, his far the best, home court advantage, very good numbers 16.8/3.7/7.2. But that was enough only for 1 win against Real, who remained with only 18 years old kid on Pg.

4th and last with Pao, 11.7/2.7/6; but only 22% for 2 and 31% for 3, again 0 wins for Pao.

Then you have solid, but nothing special year 1 in Barca and again bad year 2 with 16% shooting for 3.

He was again bad in last playoffs with Fener.

To recup,

He had 2 disastrous playoffs, 3 bad playoffs, 1 average and 1 good. I would say that's pretty unplayable, especially now, when his athleticism has gone.

 

[Jazz2]

You want more detailed answer? No problem.

He as leader wasn't been able to bring more than 1 win in 4 playoffs for Pao. 1/12 total score. 2 times with home court advantage and having pretty good team.

1st playoffs against Baskonia, he averaged 5/3.7/6.7; 0% for 3( 0/9). This's as bad as it can get from the leader.

2nd playoffs against Fener with home court advantage 6/3/4; 33% for 2 and 11% for 3(1:9). Even bigger disaster than year 1. Especially if we know how true leader in Fener looked. So first 2 playoffs 1/18 for 3. That makes him probably the worst leader of his team in playoffs history in 2 consecutive years.

3rd playoffs, his far the best, home court advantage, very good numbers 16.8/3.7/7.2. But that was enough only for 1 win against Real, who remained with only 18 years old kid on Pg.

4th and last with Pao, 11.7/2.7/6; but only 22% for 2 and 31% for 3, again 0 wins for Pao.

Then you have solid, but nothing special year 1 in Barca and again bad year 2 with 16% shooting for 3.

He was again bad in last playoffs with Fener.

To recup,

He had 2 disastrous playoffs, 3 bad playoffs, 1 average and 1 good. I would say that's pretty unplayable, especially now, when his athleticism has gone.

Bob, I can never tell if you have a file on your computer with Calathes' playoff stats for his seasons with PAO or if by this stage you have committed them to memory. Either way, I've acknowledged before that they aren't good, even taking into account he was up against very good opposition in each of those seasons.
IIRC Diamantidis was still there that first season so it wasn't quite truly Calathes' team at that point. Also, PAO have completely collapsed since Calathes left. They are now just dreaming of playoff appearances.

Those two seasons at Barca are important, because particularly that first year doesn't suggest he's unplayable in the playoffs.

I did chuckle at the "only 18 years old kid on Pg" line though. Whatever happened to that young lad?

 

[Killer Bob2]

Bob, I can never tell if you have a file on your computer with Calathes' playoff stats for his seasons with PAO or if by this stage you have committed them to memory. Either way, I've acknowledged before that they aren't good, even taking into account he was up against very good opposition in each of those seasons.
IIRC Diamantidis was still there that first season so it wasn't quite truly Calathes' team at that point. Also, PAO have completely collapsed since Calathes left. They are now just dreaming of playoff appearances.

Those two seasons at Barca are important, because particularly that first year doesn't suggest he's unplayable in the playoffs.

I did chuckle at the "only 18 years old kid on Pg" line though. Whatever happened to that young lad?

Yes, and that's my point. When it matters the most, playoffs/F4, he didn't deliver.

The best example is 2017 playoffs against Fener. Calathes disastrous, Bogdanovic playing like MJ. What do you think would have happened, if these 2 had opposite performances? Pao would have won easily that series. And that's why you pay your stars big bucks, to win playoffs games not some unimportant RS games. Calathes is totally different case, his numbers are free falling in playoffs.

In stacked team, anyone can play. But you're not paying 2+ mio to a player, just to handle the ball a little bit. His perfect position now is backup Pg, 15 min per game, 0 minutes in the clutch, 350K salary.